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From a dream genre to a watered down casual cloning joke
Sydrev
Member UncommonPosts: 29
Obviously people have a hard time accepting the fact that this whole genre has become close to a joke. I also had my moments 10 years ago when mmo's were closer to 'dreams come true' than they are today. The obvious problem is wow and there is no turning back , even other types of games have been dumbed down for a long time.
There used to be much more open ended, open pvp games with little restrictions and more depth 10 years ago than today. The tide has turned and p2p games are dead since a while , we now have to play f2p crap with premium options in watered down clones. There is little hope even in swtor and such with rail shooting in space and such.
This type of game keeps getting worst every day , it got taken over by carebears and solo oriented players who have no idea how to use teamwork or basic roleplaying. The game devs are bending over to the demands of people who want to play single player experiences in an online world. That's like having sex with a blow up doll.
I remember Neocron when you would need 4 hackers (3 layers + hacknet) and 25 fighters to have a small chance of controlling an outpost in the wastelands, not counting the tradeskillers waiting back for poking, repairing, recycling, researching, constructing and modding. Now those were the days, but the game died in 2006 and it's on life support since , basically an abandonware. The game had it's flaws but mostly technical.
There was also ww2online, but the devs destroyed squads to implement a high command system and implemented tons of casual oriented gameplay features that killed the game in the long run, as it was simply a hardcore simulator mmo that tried to appeal to everyone way too much.
The market for niche games is getting smaller everyday, people dont want to create dream worlds and universes anymore, they want your cash real quick by trying to appeal to everyone at the same time and cloning the worst mmo ever created , wow.
I have not found a good mmo since 5 years, i keep searching but lost hope in the long run. Thankfully i spend more time on other dreams like making a legacy out of my audio visual work and gaining knowledge by reading and educating myself. They say all good things must come to an end sometimes to make these things valuable, nostalgia can be bitter.
I was always a twitch player, i just prefer twitch to pnc in this genre. I have always been an honest gamer, never cheated, duped, hacked, exploited , macroed or botted. I think those types of players also destroyed the whole gaming aspect to a certain point. It's not just carebears and solo oriented players that caused all this but all those people who dont play games like they are supposed to be played.
I hope one day i can find my home like Neocron back in 2001 (there was player appartments back then, with sandbox elements and people could visit each other, you could place stuff anywhere you wanted as well ). Neocron has been my best experience and when i look at today's games , they just dont have half the features those decade old mmo's have , they are worst in all aspects except graphics. Even Black Prophecy feels like a big farce to me.
I understand the frustration that i read often around here from people that come from UO, EQ, AC, SB, etc but we all know that era is over since a while , i guess we lived something good compared to what is experienced today. The very repressive nature of such websites never helped, with ego fueled powertripping moderators to money making gimmicks, those people never helped but make things worst. I hope each and everyone of you can find a happy place to game sooner or later, as i think most hardcore mmo players have been let down by the industry since a while. Until then, have fun folks!
S!
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Comments
Hate to say it, but it's the casual gamers with a sense of entitlement that's ruined the genre.
They don't want their games to be immersive, complex, and require some measure of effort to accomplish goals. They want everything to be instant gratification with as little time, effort, downtime, and consequences as possible.
I remember a time when playing an MMO meant being part of a community on an online virtual world that you were apart of. Today it's more synonymous with playing a massive multiplayer online single player game on rails.
The OP has echoed my thoughts exactly. Modern MMO's really are a joke, they have so little substance or difficulty that half the time I'm falling asleep while playing them, the level of involvement is that low. I'm not kidding - sometimes I struggle to keep my eyes open! Yet the people into these modern MMO's seem to love them and I really can't understand why - the only reason must be that they simply don't know any different. I read posts from some of them saying, "I tried EQ and it sucked because of X.", and it's not that EQ is bad, they're simply used to a new style of gameplay and if a game doesn't have all those 'easy mode' additions then they can't deal with it. And so they go back to WoW, claiming it to be the best MMO ever.
If I could go back in time and place a really freakin' big bomb under Blizzard HQ I really would. They altered the face of MMO's and made every developer want to make a carbon copy to try and gain some of the millions they were making. But in doing so, they've created a string of ultimately weak and shallow games that only the WoW kiddies could truly be interested in. But then, they have WoW, so why would they be interested in them?
When I played EQ I looked forward to the future, when graphics and computing power would increase, so that the EQ of then would be the ultimate fantasy playground in the future. Instead we have linear cartoon themeparks that aren't even a shadow of what a future EQ could have been.
I cross my fingers for EQ Next.
I enjoyed MMORPGs more before they became mainstream. But I certainly respect those who disagree with me and who enjoy the more recent crop. I think there's plenty of room for both groups.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Back in the day I figured that by 2011, we'd be seeing games with so much to do in them that Id have a hard time figuring out what I wanted to do when I logged on!
I thought for sure we'd have such complexity and content that people who enjoy all types of play in MMOs would find their home in each and every game.
I also thought wed have games with 24/7 GMs who did nothing but run storylines with epic invasions, travelling merchants, and ongoing storylines that kept he game fresh and fun!
By now I figured, we'd be able to exist in standalone virtual worlds where everything you did impacted the world around you.
Of course I figured 10 years ago that with the way technology was speeding along that we'd have pure artistry, worlds where you could immerse yourself in as a the character you want to be, a place where you were more than just a set of min/max numbers.
Personally I find the whole genre to be stagnant as companies wont stop cranking out WoW clones. (Mind you I know its an EQ clone, but lets face it, its a spreading cancer that has brought all the creativity and life in the genre to a standstill)
I am thoroughly disappointed with the stagnant pond that is the MMO genre.
I dont even think its just the gamers. Theres a whole generation of young people who have grown used to instantaneous stimulation.
It's a video game. Christ, not a college degree.
It's not exactly like Pac-Man, Asteroids, or Pong made you work to see any content you couldn't see from the moment you put your first coin in. Games, as we originally knew them, were simply time wasters with the possibility of a high score as any sort of gratification for effort.
Yup.
There has been a lot of cloning. I think noone can deny that. Real challenge is hard to find too: content gets dumbed down, death pennalties are minimized and games are designed to quickly appease people without patience. Innovation is often limited to one or two aspects of a game which get branded as its USP's in the marketing campaign, the rest is treading the beaten path because "that is what people are used to".
All in all I think marketing people have far too much influence in a game's core design and there is a general tendency to underestimate the intelligence of the average gamer, that or conscious decisions to get a wider target audience by not wanting to scare of younger players. I know the older, more experienced mmorpg players, like many here on this site, have very few games really appealing to them.
There are still ways to pull off a great mainstream mmorpg though; with plenty of challenging content, vast and open worlds, many long term incentives and plenty of alternative gameplay options. The thing is that even those most basic of qualities often are lacking as well, with crafting added as an afterthought (WAR) or the world cut to pieces with phasing (AoC), etc.
There are games that even fail at being themeparked clones. I think that especially this made a lot of us lose faith in just about any upcoming mainstream mmorpg. Also most of the sandbox titles in the last years didn't exactly shine in quality either: indy devs rushing releases and treating us on unstable games without much graphic appeal. Meh.
We can still hope though. One day some company is bound to get it right. Or at least, get it more right than the stuff released in the last couple of years
My brand new bloggity blog.
Even college degrees have gotten easier to get. Its a well documented fact todays average college student spends far less time on their studies than 20 years ago.
I'm going to say here that MMORPGs have simply gotten worse. Since Everquest, DAoC, AO, and the like, we've pretty much had only EQ2, WoW, WoW with story quests, WoW as envisioned by Brad McQuaid, WoW with an emphasis on overland PVP, WoW with a repetitive PvE grind, and WoW with randomly spawning public quests.
Absolutely.
You sir, are far too reasonable for this type of discussion. Which planet do you hail from?
I LOL'D
Let's be honest here... you don't hate to say. In fact, I'll bet you couldn't wait to say it. That's the problem with this weird casual vs hardcore schism that has erupted. Hardcores think casuals are entitled and undeserving of rewards, and casuals think that hardcores are elitist pricks who commandeer a majority of developer attention to design end game content how they'd prefer.
And there's never a chance wasted to attack one side or the other.
I like to think MMOs have progressed from their ancestors of yore. I certaintly had fun playing EQ, and am in fact revisiting my old characters there, but DAoC was a vast improvement on the genre. From there I think WoW improved it further.
Everyone hates on WoW because it's popular. For some reason that's a bad thing in our eyes. It's like a band that you love before anyone else ever hears of it, then it becomes "mainstream" and now you hate it, but you reminisce about the days when it was only enjoyed by you and a few others. I think it's the same thing with MMOs. It was a concept we loved dearly before anyone else saw what was so great about them. Now it's popular and it's lost it's ability to make us feel unique.
I think casual gamers are shunning the cloned mmos, too. After all, its not like any of them are doing well. I take that back, the one that went F2P is.
So, I disagree that its the "casuals" fault. Not even sure how you can say being forced to raid boring, lackluster content 10-20 hours a week is casual. Just seems downright boring.
^ Should be posted on the front page of every MMO forum on the internet. Wouldn't hurt it to stick it on the retail box too.
Or if we just want to tagline it further: It's all fun and games until a million other people are proven to be just as cool as you.
Honestly I think that after the years of MMO cloning and failures caused by cloning, developers will start to deviate even just a bit to stand out from WoW and it's clones. Even if it's illusionary deviation. Though I tire of the illusionary diviations which are just gimicks and am looking for real change in gameplay.
It's probably why I'm excited about more action style gameplay. Simply because it's not what I've been playing for the past 10 years in MMOs. 've played Everquest back in 2000 to 2003 and the skills I learned from that game haven't changed AT ALL in any of the other MMOs I've played since thus far. I seriously feel like my actual skill has peaked with tab-target style, and all that is left is boss memorization. I'm quite thrilled with the idea of an action MMO like Tera. Simply because I have to learn a new way to play for once. Vindictus is great for it's change in combat gameplay. Though it's crafting sucks and there's no real exploration, but I'm loving the combat simply because it's different. Here's to hoping Tera and Blade & Soul can push a change in combat farther.
Let's face it, it's going to take a wealthy visionary who is content with getting his money back over several years as opposed to the first month. Someone with balls enough to do away with the hand holding, instancing, and level based zones garbage who doesn't mind saying if you don't like my game then don't play it. I try everything that comes out and yet I always end up back at good old WoTmud because sadly, the community, gameplay, and most importantly the PVP just can't be rivaled. How sad is it that a text based game out of the early 90's can still hold a candle to something that costs countless millions to produce. It really is all about the money and we just keep feeding into it with every new title that promises something different. I'm so disgusted with it all. I don't even play anymore, I just pray to hit the powerball so I can sink every bit of it into a real game, one that would shut down six flags and company for good.
I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake.
Nah .. i started playing MMO way before the OP (started with Kingdom of Drakkar .. even BEFORE UO & EQ).
Today's MMOs are much better.
No more heavy grind.
No more non-fun dead time.
No more omg .. missing a person in the group and can't play.
Those days are for people who needs to play a game like work .. they will never come back. Good riddence.
Since we’re talking about opinions, I’ve been around as long as others, including the one above me. Anyone that thinks or believes that the mmorpg genre has improved is in the minority; the subscription numbers tell us so.
Most every mainstream mmorpg sells near a million boxes. A mainstream mmorpg’s business model is a subscription-based one and sustainment is key; for the most-part. Most mmorpg’s only sustain approximately 20-30% of their initial purchased-box consumers. With many mmorpg’s that sold near a million boxes each, only to have 200k – 300k sustained subscribers 6-months to a year-out, there is a majority of players that are dissatisfied with, not only that game, but the genre, is my opinion
This will happen while I’m dead, but if the idiot developers could figure out how to design a mmorpg game that sustains 70%-80% of their box-sale consumers, I bet that will be the game for me. It sure hasn’t been the dumbed-down theme-park single-player-esque lobby-system linear pve-heavy in-organic RPG’s that have been commercialized over the past several years; from my experience at least.
I recently went back to Lineage 2 after playing Rift, I spent my time in Lineage 2 inside a catacomb (open world dungeon) with 2 clan mates killing mobs and chatting away, getting cash and gear drops, buying new gear and having a laugh with passing people, slowly getting levels.
In Rift I spent my time solo grinding my way through boring collect 10 of these, kill 15 of this, right click these orbs to summon the god of boring garbage etc.
Its a no brainer which is more fun...
Its nice to have an auto attack back as well. I have other abilities but a majority of my damage is done through my auto attack damage. Lets not overwork a grind mechanic with rotations for mobs, or pointless quest objectives. Get together with a few friends and kill mobs (with a factor of danger with a death penalty and the very high possibility of being overwhelmed).
Today's MMO's are much better.
For those of you who prefer the crap from yester-year, it's still there, go play it.
There are so many mmo's out there, enough to target every playstyle. Just because what you want isn't the most popular, that's hardly proof that the genre has gone downhill. The genre has grown and moved beyond you, leaving you in the dust.
What everyone fails to realize is that while these are games to us, they are big business to the companies that make them and the investors who support those companies. Yes, wouldn´t it be great if a company spent $50 million to make a game that 10,000 hardcore players enjoyed. Funcom LOST $25 million dollars on Age of Conan, they had to write it off their books. Other games we don´t know about.. how much did Warhammer lose, probably around the same amount.
So tell me, If you were Bioware, and spending more than $100 million to make a game.. would you cater to the smallest minority?
WOW is fun... a crapload of people pay $15 every month because they enjoy it. Blizzard is making a lot of money because of that reason.
When it is YOUR $50 million, then you can decide the rules and risk that money however you want. But do not blame the people who are investing all this money for targeting the market they are.
the whole genre has gone WAY downhill & I know its cliche but I blame WoW. It used to be for the hardcore people who had way to much time on their hands. I can remember bringing up mmo titles in conversation with fellow gamers & they'd be like "never heard of it. oh! its an mmo? yeah I don't have enough time to play those kinds of games". Now if the game is too difficult or time consuming they just whine & make hundreds of complaint posts on the forums to get what they want. It's the new America as this type of behavior is accepted in all aspects of our daily life. Children have no manners & their parents are even worse & are very much to blame. Everyone rushes around through their day, being rude & acting like their lives are more important than everyone elses saying they have no time because of their busy schedules only to speed through traffic just to plop their morbidly obese asses on the couch & eat fast food. No one works for anything anymore, its pathetic & I'm sure our forefathers are rolling in their graves.
You know its possible that 'hate to say it' was used in the context of hates having to say it because its true, but isn't happy that it is true. As in I hate saying that the current trend in mmo's is terrible because I wish it weren't the case. I'd be much happier saying that current MMO's have fulfilled my expectations of the genre, but I can't say it because its not true.
Unfortunately I dont have the time I had in the past, so the more casual MMOs actually now fit my needs better.
And 10 years ago ? IIRC we didnt even had flatrates in 2001, so nope, I didnt played MMOs back then.