Should It Take A Long Time To Max Out Your Character?

ArEf

By max out, I mean "hit the end game". We've seen, over the past ten years, games go from months to take to hit level cap, to weeks, to days and finally to hours. It's created an era of quick McDonalds-esque snack fixes for MMOs instead of a long-term banquet or something (how the hell do people manage to fit in food analogies in MMO debates, seriously?).

In my opinion, there are pros and cons to both sides of this:-

Pros to fast levelling:-

• 
  Ability to level up alts. If you decide you don't like the class you're playing or it doesn't suit your playstyle or whatever halfway to max.
• 
  Able to get to where "the action" and the majority of the population will be in a short time frame.
• 
  ??? (There has to be more. Care to contribute?)

Pros to slow levelling:-

• 
  Time taken gives the player a greater investment in their character.
• 
  Will generally involve XP groups in order to level faster and subsequently builds community.
• 
  Allows people to take a long time to learn their characters.
• 
  ??? (Again, there has to be more. )

So, what do you think? Should it take a long time to max out your character in terms of levelling progression? Or should it be fast and painless?

Eronakis

I choose the months option. I think to level up a character should take 3-5 months. I am more of an old school fan of longevity for leveling a character. You brought up some good points to some of the pros of leveling slower. Community is a large aspect of that. Leveling slower would help entice a grouping experience. I'll dive a little deeper into the community aspect. I think server reprutation is also a vital key for leveling up in a slower pace. You get to know the community and the community gets to know you. Now, everyone can hide under the mask of endless alts. Alts are not a bad thing by no means.

 

Another thing I forgot to mention was by leveling slow, you get to know your class for a solo and grouping standpoint. Usually fast leveling incoperates solo gameplay. And that is one reason why many players are bad in groups within in a faster pace leveling system.

Dorko2k

depends on the game for me. I would prefer it to take months but if the content while leveling up is weak then I just want to rush to endgame but I would much rather have fulfilling content throughout all levels(dungeons, open world bosses, open world pvp, engaging quests & multiple zones to explore). This is why I'm so looking forward to SW:ToR.

EricDanie

Never.

MMOs should be dynamic enough for no one to ever feel they reached "end game". My definition of "end game" in this case is a fixed number of activities with a very limited number of variations that have to be looped over and over, simply because there is nothing beyond that in terms of progression.

By dynamic I mean something that should make this transition of content tiers to feel much more fluid. In World of Warcraft for example, this fluidity could be done through new quests arcs in new phase regions explaining the development of the story, along with "events" like the ones before the Cataclysm or the opening of the gates of Ahn'Qiraj. The thing is that they must be varied enough to feel like you're progressing towards something instead of doing a huge chunk of the same thing which is what easily happens when you're only doing one type of activity - like doing only questing, only raiding, only running dungeons, only crafting, only BGs, only arenas, etc.

Ceridith

Depends on the game.

In sandbox MMOs, it should be "never". Meaning that there should always be something for the player to decide to work towards. Be it a skills (leveling), the aquisition of wealth (or power), etc. Sandbox MMOs are about the journey and not the destination, and the general mindset of the sandbox gamer is in parallel to this.

Themepark MMOs on the other hand, weeks to months. These types of MMOs are about the 'content', and not the journey. The general mindset of many themepark gamers is that the game 'doesn't begin' until you're max level, where they participate in endgame content.

Komar

I dislike the concept of 'end game'.  When I began playing MMOs, it never occurred to me to think about what I would be doing at the endgame.  There was so much to see and do now, endgame had no pull at all.

someforumguy

Im on the fence for this one.

High max lvls that take long to achieve can have some serious drawbacks for me. I see myself as a gamer and sometimes in these games I have difficulties finding a challenge in PVE. Only a few lvls difference between your toon and intended questlvl can make PVE so much easier, that its just not fun for me.  With the amount of quests usually, its almost impossible to do all those quests at intended lvl.

Another thing is that I prefer to group with people I know. This asks for some kind of mentoring system to overcome the lvl differences between my friends and me(ala CoH or EQ2), which many MMO's that have a high lvl cap dont have.

In Guild Wars there is a low lvl cap. In 2 out of 3 Campains you are max lvl at the beginning of the story. I really liked that because there was no 'cheating' possible. There was no way to piggyback through difficult missions because some supergeared max player helped out that kills in one hit. But then in Guild Wars it lacks interesting character progression because of that.

So I would like to see a hybrid of both systems. Like Anet announced for GW2 where you automatically scale your lvl to the event you participate in. So it does provide character progression because of high lvl cap AND lets you play all content at intended lvl (or at least close to it). Im really looking forward to see how this plays out.

eye_m

I voted never, but I'm really referring to the system that GW had, not some other mmo's. In GW you hit lvl 20 in no time, but that really wasn't maxxed out. You would continue to level to gain more skill points to gain more skills, and not to mention the seemingly endless amount of titles and such that your character can obtain.

cali59

If the endgame ends up being the focus of the game, then the shorter the leveling time the better.  If I'm in a guild and we need decide we'd prefer me to play a healer or whatever, I don't want it to be the case where powerleveling a new toon isn't even feasible and recruitment is the only possible short term option.

I voted days because days is actually a long time in terms of actual playtime.  Even a game like GW2 which supposedly will have a mere 90 minutes per level and 80 levels, that could be over 100 hours to level to cap.  Playing 4 hours a day every day, doing nothing but leveling, it would take almost a month real time to reach the cap.

If I'm enjoying the middle game content so much, then I'd much rather do it over and over with half a dozen alts than feel like I need to grind my way to the top on one.

Related to the topic, I'm also opposed to AAs, or at least unlimited AAs like EQ1 had.  Give me an achieveable endpoint, instead of feeling like even if I make it to the level cap, I'm always going to be gimped compared to the rest of the team who keep gaining AAs while I'm trying in vain to catch up.

Someone did mention GW1 though, and I'm totally fine with that system.  It's fairly easy to get pretty much as powerful as you can get, and then the advancement afterwards is for vanity armor, titles, etc.  I totally don't care about that stuff, but knock yourselves out those people who want it.

Loktofeit

Originally posted by Komar

I dislike the concept of 'end game'. 

Same here. I've always found it rather fascinating that MMO gamers not only bought into that but that they never took exception to it. in the situations where they felt the fun starts at 'endgame.' Then again, the majority of the initial MMO gamers were masochists from EQ, so I guess I can see how the mindset was already there to pay $15 a month for x months "to get to the fun part."

Elikal

YES. Months to years!

Axehilt

Reaching max level is not "maxing out your character" in all games.  So while the answer to the OP's question is clearly "Yes, it should take a long time," reaching max level isn't always maxing out your character.

k11keeper

Like someone else mentioned earlier. When I first started MMOs I wasn't ever in a rush to reach max level in a game. I was more concerned with having fun and doing everything I possibly could along the way. Nowadays though I have to admit I try to get to max level as fast as I can because it always ends up being the area where the bulk of the "epic" content is. If a game can provide enough awesome content to do along the way I'll have no problem with it taking months but if there isn't much to do but exp and do some hoky quests and a few lame dungeons then get me to endgame asap.

Evasia

If gameplay is made that you have alot fun and not realy feel its grind i say years. But if its years the gamedeveloper should make enormous effort to prefend exploit and other ways of cheating or i say in weeks and done with it.

Darkfall in many ways FAILED comepletely from launch so many exploited macro afk and even used hacks that for a big part ruined the fun. Building character in Darkfall would have taken years but some already had alot skills maxed out in months becouse of cheating now game developers have speed up the process alot.

But i love building a character for longtime i realy dont care if im behind even in full loot free for all pvp games i always seems to manage very well even i dont cheat/macro/hack/afk 1sec.

Castillle

As long as the fun curve isnt *too* dependent on the level curve, I dont care o.o

jadedlevir

My answer was split between days and never( i put days), because having an endgame is stupid. It's stupid and it's old... and im sick of it tbh. People act like if grinding your character is some kind of journey so you can get to endgame, but it's really not, and it's quite pointless.

 

The problem is, your asking how long "character progression" should take, but leveling characters is honestly a clumsy way to "develop" your character. You should be able to jump in from the first day and have fun because it's a video game.. don't give me this mcdonalds crap, it's a video game, it's not work.

 

Character development should be actual development.. like building a guild up with a respectable reputation, building up a characters home or something, working on a naval fleet and havig a huge one after a year or so,building your own reputation, saving up wealth, developing trade routes/methods, building up a supply of armour and weapons(sbad examples, but sandbox goals is what i mean), working with the community to develop your character and the world around it into something is development. I really do think out of all the things mortal online has done wrong, its character development is right(if it had more things to develop like archage will .)

I also think guild wars 2 has it right, xsyon did it right(when more content is added), I think eve did too(since it never ends), theres other games, darkfall if it had a skill cap/specialization, but my point is the traditional grind to end game needs to go if you want actual quality development.

But questin/mob grinding is crap, it's boring,  repetitive, filler content, doesn't teach you anything about your character, and it's artificial. Which is kind of ironic since you made a mcdonalds  reference; grinding up to max level isn't quality content.

SuperXero89

I say that it should take months, and by months, I think it should take around 3-4 months of regular playtime (not time spent in-game) to hit the max level.  I realize that's not what the thread is asking, but I really don't know how to relate that to actual time spent in-game.  Games like EQ where it took a month in real time to go from level 55 or 56 were great when I was a 14-year old with no real responsibilities, but I think few people with active careers or other obligations would realistically support going back to that model of advancement.  Additionally, I think one reason why it was so much more reasonable to put up with such a huge leveling curve was the fact that you were constantly interacting with other people, which is something that has been seriously deemphasized with newer MMORPGs.  I could only imagine the torture of WoW-style solo questing with an Everquest leveling curve.

ArEf

^ Can't deny that. I think levelling soloing over that long a period of time would remind people far too much of a Korean grinder rather than an MMO. :P

laokoko

I'm playing atlantica online and there's only like 14 players that reach max levle on my server.

Anyway I think the main problem is people wont' be able to play together if there's so much gap.

That's say I'm lvl140, and I have a friend which just got the game, it'll take him 10 hours a day and 1 year to get to where I am so we can play together.

But this problem can be resolved if lvl1 and lvl140 can play together if there is no "end game" concept.  So everyone can play together, and only thing about being higher lvl is you become "a little" stronger.

MurlockDance

I voted for months of in-game time, but I hesitated between it and never. I can't help but think of old AD&D where some of the most famous people in the Forgotten Realms were originally "low level" by today's standards (like level 9 Fighters or something). Very few NPCs were higher level than that and if they were, they were considered legendary, like Elminster, who was originally a level 26 Mage, though there was a hint in one novel I read that he might have started life as a Fighter and dual-classed out of it

I also remember a time in MMOs where the game wasn't just about advancement. There were famous players hanging around cities who became well-known for their roleplay or for their crafting, or whatever, but their adventuring level was low.

Ah the good ol' days where MMOs and RPGs weren't just a treadmill...

 

I think modern-day DAoC has it about right. It doesn't take too long to level up to 50 now, but to max out MLs, RRs, and CLs, it takes a long time. That game has a very large amount of end-game content, and it's quite fun with RvR or doing the occasional ToA quest. And in EQ2, if you stop to smell the roses like I do, it takes a very long time to level up. Granted, I make sure my characters have great equipment, the best skill/spells, and have leveled up their craft to keep up with their adventuring level. I also make sure they have decent AAs...

eldaris

It could take months or years if developers are able to make enough content so that leveling is fun and not feels like a grind(killing monsters to level in the "old school" way of leveling is not content in my opinion).Also the levels or skills progression should come fast enough ,i don't enjoy playing days or weeks just to get another aa point for example.In a game with such a long leveling curve should be lot of things to do beside the combat like decent crafting (which means item decay and equality between crafted and items you get from questing or raids),a good player economy,housing,other things to help rp ,big world to explore,good pvp - optional-  (rvr for people who like that and ffa servers for ffa fans).Something like that would be close to the perfect mmo for me.I didn't vote for anything in that poll because it didn't had a choice about  the lenght of leveling compared to  the amount of content a game has.

MurlockDance

Originally posted by eldaris

It could take months or years if developers are able to make enough content so that leveling is fun and not feels like a grind(killing monsters to level in the "old school" way of leveling is not content in my opinion).Also the levels or skills progression should come fast enough ,i don't enjoy playing days or weeks just to get another aa point for example.In a game with such a long leveling curve should be lot of things to do beside the combat like decent crafting (which means item decay and equality between crafted and items you get from questing or raids),a good player economy,housing,other things to help rp ,big world to explore,good pvp - optional-  (rvr for people who like that and ffa servers for ffa fans).Something like that would be close to the perfect mmo for me.I didn't vote for anything in that poll because it didn't had a choice about  the lenght of leveling compared to  the amount of content a game has.

Let's look at DAoC:

- Takes a few days played to get to level 50 solo. It is much faster if you're grouped up. It is slower though if you play a class that isn't great solo (like a Healer).

- Many ways to level up: camp grinding, instanced dungeon tasks, old-fashioned tasks, mini-quests/tasks, storyline quests, RvR, dungeon running. You also get bonuses to xp if you hit up an area that hasn't been hunted in for a while, which is a system I wish more games would use.

- Crafting is incredibly tedious and boring, but you can make really good gear for many levels. Peoples' gear also wears out so they should be interested in rebuying equipment from crafters at some point. Plus, alchemists are in demand for their consumables. Artifacts don't disappear, nor does dropped loot at 100% quality though. Normal drops disappear after time.

- There are houses. There is a form of player economy, though because population levels have degraded it's pretty stagnant.

- Exploration is pretty fun despite the game world not being the largest and despite there being no achievements or xp earned. There are also tons of environments to explore, especially if you are on the ffa PvP server or coop server. What I liked about DAoC exploration too is that Mythic did less with more. To explain myself a bit, none of the environments are as 'cluttered' as in more recent games like WoW or WAR for example, but to me that further enhances the exploration. When you do come across say, a menhir out in the middle of a lake in Midgard, one might wonder about it, especially if at night a bunch of ghosts appear.

- DAoC is weakest on the RP front, but that's partly because there is virtually no fluff in it. There is some, but it's really tacked on. That didn't stop people in the old days from RPing though.

There are obviously negatives to this game. No doubt about it. The biggest problem that DAoC has though is lack of population and that's pretty much the killer. That and RvR is really hard to get into if you're new and going up against people who have been playing for years and years. What I am high-lighting here is that there is a game that does have in theory a lot of what you're looking for.

 

Isn't it a shame that we have to look to a game that came out in 2001 for so many great elements that a very many players are looking for (even if Mythic fell short on the execution of many)? I can understand the influence that WoW has had, but why hasn't any developer tried to build on DAoC?

Malcanis

I dont think characters should ever be completely "maxed out". I think a better way is to give strongly diminishing returns (so that characters can increase their abilities relatively quickly early on, and then ever more slowly) coupled with a wide, rather than deep ability base, so that after a while you're more likely to increase the range of things your character can do rather than increase his absolute ability in any one thing.

Aison2

The key is not how long it takes. The keypoint is how much it affects your strength. For PvE this is of course irrelevant and it can take years as long as the game provides enough content to progress. For PvP this can be a gamebreaker. The second nolifers get double damage&hp cause of grinding more, is the second all competitive players macro/bot their chars to become competitive , buy a maxed character or just leave to a better game.

That progression always only occurs on a strenght level is a failure in itself. Normal Rpgs do it since ages. Instead of simply only progressing in strength. Let them progress in their variety of attacks and skills. Enlarge their choices instead of the digit numbers in combat log.

JaggaSpikes

it should take about 3 months real time (not play time). after that, player should be able to customize character's power, by replacing one ability with other, which should also take time. basically, times based leveling with power cap.

xKingdomx

Depends on what you meant by max out

I would much prefer a game with lesser emphasis on leveling up and level based gear. Because if thats the case, I probably want to max out in around months til one year.

but as for more skilled based games, where maxxing out means like master the system, probably never. The moment I would become king in a game is when I would leave the game, these kinda games require a challenge to keep people interested

 

I still look forward to the day when sandbox becomes fusioned with the themepark mold of the mmo genre