Since when were mmorpg's not grinding and easy? The first mmorpg's were txt based quests that required the player to go kill enemy A and retrieve item A to give to player B for item B etc. Imo mmorpg's have ALWAYS been a "dumbed down" gameplay experience, yea come at me MMO veterans.
So newer MMORPG's are more instanced these days, thats a huge upgrade to me. It's much more entertaining to be able to see how you've effected the world around you because of the actions you've done, as opposed to reading a paragraph telling you that you've changed event A even though event A remains the same as before. At least todays mmo's do a better job of masking the fact that your essentially doing the exact same thing with every quest you do. MMORPG's are evolving but their not being "dumbed down" imo their just growing to provide more entertainment. Isn't that the point of an mmo anyway =]?
MUDs weren't really MMOs, they are just like P&P RPGs the roots of MMOs but not the same thing.
The thing about instancing makes me just wonder one thing: Why bother to play massive multiplayer like that? If I want to change the entire game by myself I play a single player game instead.
My first MMO was Meridian 59 in 96. I don't really think that the quests are much better masked now, I killed 10 rats then and I still kill 10 rats now. There is more flavor text but it is at best poorly written and I rarely bother to read it anymore.
I would say that games are slightly dumbed down today. Now a 8 year old kid can play most of the game easily, the same kid would have gotten nowhere in M59.
It isn't all bad, I don't miss standing hours waiting for a spawn but the quest have gone nowhere in 15 years, they are exactly the same as always, phasing, instancing or whatever.
The thing is that old MMOs did some things better, newer MMOs do other stuff better while they both still suck at stuff they should have fixes ages ago, like vendortrash and rat killing quests.
The perfect game will have some old stuff, some modern stuff and some new stuff. Take a third from each and you would have a great game (well the best parts of course).
Well if done properly most instances don't interfere with the feel of an open world anyway. There are mmo's that balance an open world with a few instances pretty well. That being said, instancing is currenty the only efficient way to design quests that aren't just "rat killing quests". So if you don't want those rat killing quest's to be in new MMO's then you have to have instances, there is no in between.
Imo this is why so many veteran mmo players are pist off with todays mmorpg's, because they want something that simply doesn't exist yet. mmorpg's are evolving so hopefully they'll reach that point but until then balancing an open world and some instances is the closet a game can get to being innovative.
Not true. Instancing is the EASIEST way to do things. Yes instances, in almost every one of their forms, break the open world feel. WoW and LotRO being especially guilty.
Devs from 2001 managed to find a way to make a perfectly balanced MMO with incredible bosses and quests without using instances. It just takes good game design, which most devs don't have.
Your still talking about quests that require the same thing. KILL A to receive item B. So they made the thing you have to kill bigger, big deal. My point is that instancing provides the ability to creat IN-DEPTH quests and give the player a visual perspective of how he/she has effected the world around them. Instancing is the only way instanced events can happen. Go figure =P.
Er, well 3 arguments.
If you're in a game to "change the world" you'd be better served playing a single player game.
Second, in an instance, you're not actually changing the world or doing anything different that you couldn't do in normal world.
And third, the only time game worlds in MMOs have changed are with noninstanced dev created events, like darkfall's dynamic lore, or the invasions in AC or UO. So no, instances don't offer anything but a band aid for lazy devs.
MMORPG's are evolving. Instanced events allow the dev's to expand on idea's and create gameplay beyond killing rat's. I don't see instances as being a band-aid, I see them as getting closer to the innovation that most MMO gamers demand. Grinding monsters for a quest with different stories behind why your grinding gets old. Imo lazy dev's are the one's who create mmo's without instances. There's absolutely no innovation in that. Place NPC's that have you go and kill these NPC's. Maybe these dev's could use a "band-aid".
I guess you don't understand games without instances then. Instances are band aids to fix games that are based around one solitary idea of "get loot". EQ needed instances to function, so did WoW. DAoC, a well designed game, did not. Now what is this tosh about you saying instances allow devs to expand on stuff? Again I ask, what can you do in an instance you can't do in the open world?
My bad for the confusion, I'm talking about instanced events not just instances. For example, events that would show a dragon tearing through a wall when you arive at his layer or whatever, as opposed to the dragon just standing in one place waiting to die. I know MMO's without instanced events all too well, their all the same. GW2 would be a prime example of what I'm talking about. Unfourtunately there still isn't a way to have such events in an open world without having instances. This is what I meant by finding a good balance between instances and an open world. Another example would be when the starting Worgen area in Cataclysm completely floods after you've done certain quests. Unfortunately it's WoW but to me that still innovation. Either way couldn't have that flood without an instance.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
I feel part of the dumbing down starts with the hardware and networking technollogy. Videogames have become one of the largest profit entertainment industries, even larger than the movie industry. The movie companies have their own channels, theaters, and cable/internet companies.
With the billions the game industry makes off of us. Why can't they have a gamers developer union that actually fights for our interests? What do I mean by interests?
1.Fight for our rights to gaming culture. By that I mean stop letting the suits in Washington or the esrb try and stymie the different avenues of gaming. Games are no longer just for teens or younger players. Violence has been on the tv, in our homes, all over the world since the dawn of time. There should be cute kiddy games for the young ones and adult type games for well adults.
2.We live in or close to the age of fully intergrated digital entertainment. And gaming, downloading movies/games will require massive speeds to test the limits of what we can interact with globally. We the gamers deserve a dedicated gaming internet service offered by the game developers union. An affordable service that doesn't share traffic with the other isp providers. So we can truly have massive mulitplayer games. Imagine massive PvE or PvP skirmishes with not just 10s to 100s but numbering in the multi thousands.
3.With that money they make off providing a global dedicated gaming service. They could put some of that profit back into technology development.or game development education. By this I mean have a group that creates global software tools/engines for all gaming development companies. So they can spend less time with the technical jargon. And more time on concept/design stages, testing, basically just focused on game content and original ideas.
I feel since every gamer is different, there should be a game out there for every gamer. Problem is money, schedules, the fear of risk, and us the players force developers into creative black holes. Like a mistress, we all want to be courted and wowed by new exciting experiences. But often if those attempts at the diamonds in the rough are slightly flawwed. We demand our money back or jump ship to the next game. No game is perfect, and if you spend all your time focusing on flaws. You will never find that perfect marriage.
As I said earlier I think there should be many kinds of games to serve the many kinds of gamers. The perfect mmo to me, is one that doesn't deal in absolutes. It should have a themepark story, with a couple of branches or choices to be made. No story or movie is good if you only see fragments all out of order. And most people are not great directors. It should have a flexible economy. Different ways to make money. Farming, crafting, instances, bartering, gambling, and some other things. Each of those professions should have different levels of entry. Very accesible to pick up and make some easy profit. But also have versions of them that require high skill and some that just reward time invested. Every class should have unique skills, looks, story, but also not share the same UI or mechanics of control for every class in combat. But not so unique that certain content can't be completed without a said class. Quests just need to be varied, if they become to similar to each other it will grow stale regardless of how fun it is the first few times. Devs have plenty of games to draw quest inspiration from. It's just a matter of writing hundreds of mini stories, and taking the time a majority of them different. My last comment I know for sure will draw disagreement. Themeparks might be better for the most part. But no matter how good the ride is. You will get tired of riding the same ride. Sandpark has the ultimate endgame potential imo. It just hasn't been done the right way yet. Some game company out there needs to find a way to make sandbox gameplay very accesible, not bogged down in menus, not affect other aspect of the game, not require large single play times, and create tools for player driven rewards.
Actually, I feel I can say with quite some authority what the spirit and intent of original MMORPGs were, and what the core of the genre aimed to be before the Casual Invasion and the WoW induced Dark Ages.
MMOs were initially pationate games made by nerds trying to bring D&D to computers. Bringing to life virtual WORLDS with deep RPG mechanics and a heavy HEAVY social element. That is all but gone now. So when I hear someone say MMO, I think core, true MMOs. Not these Diablo games with monthly fees.
The intent of the first MMOs were the same as they are today, to make money for the developer. They catered to their primary audience, which at the time happened to be nerds. Over time, that changed as games went mainstream and the nerd audience became a minuscule part of the marketplace. Games evolve. Deal with it.
Actually, I feel I can say with quite some authority what the spirit and intent of original MMORPGs were, and what the core of the genre aimed to be before the Casual Invasion and the WoW induced Dark Ages. MMOs were initially pationate games made by nerds trying to bring D&D to computers. Bringing to life virtual WORLDS with deep RPG mechanics and a heavy HEAVY social element. That is all but gone now. So when I hear someone say MMO, I think core, true MMOs. Not these Diablo games with monthly fees.
The intent of the first MMOs were the same as they are today, to make money for the developer. They catered to their primary audience, which at the time happened to be nerds. Over time, that changed as games went mainstream and the nerd audience became a minuscule part of the marketplace. Games evolve. Deal with it.
Almost got it right. Games certainly have devolved in order to cater to the broader market, not much we can do about it except find the fun we can while sharing MMO's with the Knuckle-dragging crowd.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All forms of enteratinment media are getting dumbed down, and have been since thier inception, in my opinion. They keep catering to the younger crowd. As we get older, it seems like what the younger crowd wants is more immature and easy. But we were all the target audience at one time or another. I guess it's just a matter of perspective.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I don't believe things are being dumb down, I simply think a lot of people want more. I mean, I loved Transformers when I was a kid but if you ask me to watch the show now... WTF!? not watching THAT crap. Like fine wine, we age and are tastes change.
You can't expect every media ((Gaming industry)) to keep makingproducts for your age group... Most teen, young adult or adult grow out of gaming. Or if they don't they still game a lot less. This is in general, don't spam me if your still an hardcore geezer.. I MEANT in general. As an example, I'll take my group of friends ((That aren't that different from many groups of friends out there)).
12 to 18: Hardcore gaming.
19 to 25: Gamer with a social life.
26 to now: Casual gamer but most of the time, something else comes first.
Later to Geezer-hood: Who knows, when I'm retired I might go back to being hardcore.
Anyways, games are not being Dumb Down but simply adapted to the majority gamers. Which sadly, aren't us anymore.
My opinion anyways!
________________________ "If RL was an MMO, I'd probably be getting laid more often..."
I think it'd be interesting to see the ages of the people posting their opinions. I'm betting the people saying "Yes, games are being dumbed down" are older than those saying not.
I was recently at a conference that was largely centered around OLD games (colecovision, atari, etc.) and I picked up a copy of Master Blaster for NES. I started playing it and its still a great game. One problem, NO SAVE. That's right, you play it until you beat it. If you don't, you start over the next time you turn it on.
In my self-righteous pride, I'm tempted to follow this up with "Gamers these days don't know what hardcore is!" I'd then go get my cane, some iced tea, and sit on my front porch to watch these fancy new "automobiles" drive by my house...
Seriously though, you can call it evolving or devolving, but mainstream games are absolutely being "dumbed down" to cater to the mass market of instant gratification youth. Anyone who can't see the hand-holding in games like WoW simply haven't experienced enough games.
People don't want to be challenged anymore, they just want to be "awesome", then show off their barbies to all their awesome friends. It's sad, but its a simple matter of money. People will pay money to be awesome, not to "work" (aka, be challenged to progress).
The veterans and, yes I'll say it, true "hardcore" gamers are a minority. We'll just have to find our style of games in the smaller niche markets. Which really, is fine with me. Those types of games tend to have a more mature playerbase anyway.
i dont think mmorpgs are dumbed down,theres lots of proof of that,in todays games you can get the original rpg feeling from games like you got from P&P games,developers these days delivers only this,you can really feel for example in wow how powerful and or angry your orc or tauren is when you kill rats,or how intelligent your gnome is,its incredible how these magical developers can deliver this feeling today ,you can really feel it when your avatar dies in rift for example,it really hurts and its quite realistic also,the skill needed to take you down and the skill needed to woke up,amazing death simulation.in pretty much every game its extrasuper roleplaying when it comes to your avatar,your character looks exactly like you play it,its so immersive process,just google best build then click couple icons on your avatars powerscreen and you can get the ultimate roleplaying feelings.in the future things are going even more crazy,you can fly in space and get the real feeling that you are actually flying there in swtor,they use technology from the rpg future which was used for example in game like http://gamesdbase.com/Media/SYSTEM/Commodore_64/Snap/big/Star_Wars_-_1983_-_Parker_Brothers.jpg
I think it'd be interesting to see the ages of the people posting their opinions. I'm betting the people saying "Yes, games are being dumbed down" are older than those saying not.
I was recently at a conference that was largely centered around OLD games (colecovision, atari, etc.) and I picked up a copy of Master Blaster for NES. I started playing it and its still a great game. One problem, NO SAVE. That's right, you play it until you beat it. If you don't, you start over the next time you turn it on.
In my self-righteous pride, I'm tempted to follow this up with "Gamers these days don't know what hardcore is!" I'd then go get my cane, some iced tea, and sit on my front porch to watch these fancy new "automobiles" drive by my house...
So are you saying that a game without a save option is 'smarter' or 'dumber' than with one?
For the record I started with Atari 800 XL games if you want to judge my gaming history by that.
I'm not saying the games themselves are dumb or smart. In fact, yes Master Blaster would be even better if it had a save feature. I'm simply saying that most modern games require zero intelligence or skill to play. You could be a 9 year old, a chimp or a pickled cabbage in a jar; if you click the button long enough, you'll reach "end game".
I think it'd be interesting to see the ages of the people posting their opinions. I'm betting the people saying "Yes, games are being dumbed down" are older than those saying not.
I was recently at a conference that was largely centered around OLD games (colecovision, atari, etc.) and I picked up a copy of Master Blaster for NES. I started playing it and its still a great game. One problem, NO SAVE. That's right, you play it until you beat it. If you don't, you start over the next time you turn it on.
In my self-righteous pride, I'm tempted to follow this up with "Gamers these days don't know what hardcore is!" I'd then go get my cane, some iced tea, and sit on my front porch to watch these fancy new "automobiles" drive by my house...
So are you saying that a game without a save option is 'smarter' or 'dumber' than with one?
For the record I started with Atari 800 XL games if you want to judge my gaming history by that.
You are only trying to show off with your 64k memory, some of us had to make do with 48k.
I'm not saying the games themselves are dumb or smart. In fact, yes Master Blaster would be even better if it had a save feature. I'm simply saying that most modern games require zero intelligence or skill to play. You could be a 9 year old, a chimp or a pickled cabbage in a jar; if you click the button long enough, you'll reach "end game".
It's hard for me to respond if you use so much hyperbole.
Obviously, no game can be finished if you just 'click a button long enough' unless you have an infinite amount of time to try an infinite amount of button pushing combinations. Maybe some of those horrible Full Motion Video games from the past could fall into that category. Certainly no modern MMORPG comes even close to that category.
If you define better where you put the line between 'smart' and 'dumb' games we might have a better discussion.
Is grinding (for levels or gear, i.e. raids) becoming a more streamlined process? Or is content getting too easy?
Personally i think content is getting a bit easier but that depends on the game and it's mechanics, which as we all know can change with every game patch. However i'm an avid hater of games that require you to raid for gear in order to be competative and to keep up with the gameplay.
If game content is being made too easy, do guilds suffer? And is there any point to interacting in such a way anymore? Is team play dead?
For those games that i've played that have seemed a lot easier and i've been able to solo without even thinking about things, i do think team play is dead or at least a dying breed. Guild don't really tend to suffer as thats more community driven and a social interaction to improve the games enjoyment for each individual.
Does “dumbing down” remove a players motivation to play games? Or does easy and entertaining make for longer play time?
To start off with i wouldn't put "easy" and "entertaining" in the same sentence when descibing MMOs these days, for me easy means boring and i quit very fast (Lord of the Rings Online, Age of Conan, Star Trek Online, SWG since NGE to name a couple). So in my personal taste i'd say yes, dumbed down games remove my motivation to play.
Reputation and Renown? Did they ever exist in a MMO world, and do they still?
Depends on what you mean here, back in Pre-NGE SWG there were a few people on the Kauri server to watch out for during PvP due to their reputation of being good PvPers and then there were the crafters, Oh the good old days of needing a specific weapon, ship part etc and knowing who to go to for it out of the hundreds that crafted said items.
Are interactions online of any actual importance? Or have any resemblance to that of real life interaction?
Again referring to my days in Pre-NGE SWG i have to say that online interactions are very useful and can be quite good, you obviously get bad apples and such no matter what game or interaction there is but i've met online friends from my Guild a few times and most of them have travelled from different countries of the world in order to meet up.
Is “dumbing down” turning the whole MMO community into item ninjas, cheats, and abusive idiots? Or has the community stayed the same? Or always been…well…idiots?
It has changed and not for the better, not only do you have the loot ninjas, hackers and other such pathetic individuals but you also get abuse when asking basic questions if you've just started a game. I've lost count of the people i've helped out in various ways after seeing them recieve nothing but abuse and name calling from long time players. I've also been on the recieving end of such abuse when i did the trial for WoW and it was one of the main factors for me not buying the game.
The MMO market is very "same old crap" style now and it's frustrating me to no end, so much so that i haven't played an MMO for a very long time due to it being the same old thing, i'll do the trial, i'll enjoy the start sometimes, buy the game, play till the end of the free purchase time and end up leaving for good once i find out that it's the same old raid for this crap, raid for that crap etc. I haven't found a game since 2005 that offers something other than raiding and PvPing once you've done everything else you want to do. (before others start in on this part, no there isn't any meaningful crafting in current MMOs. Not the type that i enjoy which is extremely complex, some may not like complex systems but i enjoy using my brain, if i wanted to just log onto something and kill things i'd do what i do now and play FPS games online.)
Personally, I find the bias a little strong to be taken seriously as a paper, but I'll indulge.
I think there's a lack of trust between the developer and player when designing a MMO. The most basic example is the bi-faction system, which implies that player-made factions are potential dangers to the enjoyment of a game. On one hand, they are justified in doing so, given that the primary frustrations of classic multiplayer were centered around too much freedom given to players, such as looting rights or open PK. What many people are calling, 'dumbed down' was an accomadation to a serious problem in multiplayer games in general a 6-8 years back.
To answer your last question, the dumbing down of MMOs does not contribute to the social ills you're talking about. They were already present, and will continue to be present, outside of game design complexity. Blaming such issues on the lack of difficulty or freedom doesn't make sense because they are largely unrelated to one another. If anything, an easier game ensures less emotional attachment towards items lost/ego scarred because of a reduced amount of personal investment. That is an issue of accountability and anonynimity.
I'm not saying the games themselves are dumb or smart. In fact, yes Master Blaster would be even better if it had a save feature. I'm simply saying that most modern games require zero intelligence or skill to play. You could be a 9 year old, a chimp or a pickled cabbage in a jar; if you click the button long enough, you'll reach "end game".
Bollocks. I know for a fact that if I stick my fiancee in front of a computer with any MMO running, she will die on even normal content; I know this because I've tried to get her into some. You're just so used to the mental gymnastics and muscle memory that go into playing any modern game that you think it's "brainless".
MMO combat isn't "dumb" or "brainless", but it IS a lot worse than combat in pretty much any other genre of videogames. That is the problem: not that the combat itself is terrible, but that it's terrible <i>in comparison to</i> other games we play.
Ok, let me point out a specific that I find silly about modern MMOs. (I go into others in other posts.)
Yellow exclamation points!!!
Seriously? A exclamation point to tell players "Hey! Maybe this guy wants to ask you something!" You couldn't just let us talk to people on our own?
This is possibly one of the most blinding examples of the hand-holding in today's MMOs. Click an exclamation point, read the last sentence in a dialogue box, kill stuff, and then this invariably leads you to the next exclamation point.
I played WoW and couldn't escape these things. I would deliberately leave a cluster of yellow "bang bangs" in town and go off on my own to explore or find something else to do (craft, fish, socialize, anything!). Guess what? There was nothing to do. It's like you're a puppet on strings, but they try to convince you that you're free.
I'm not saying the games themselves are dumb or smart. In fact, yes Master Blaster would be even better if it had a save feature. I'm simply saying that most modern games require zero intelligence or skill to play. You could be a 9 year old, a chimp or a pickled cabbage in a jar; if you click the button long enough, you'll reach "end game".
Bollocks. I know for a fact that if I stick my fiancee in front of a computer with any MMO running, she will die on even normal content; I know this because I've tried to get her into some. You're just so used to the mental gymnastics and muscle memory that go into playing any modern game that you think it's "brainless".
MMO combat isn't "dumb" or "brainless", but it IS a lot worse than combat in pretty much any other genre of videogames. That is the problem: not that the combat itself is terrible, but that it's terrible in comparison to other games we play.
I have to agree with you. I have friends who aren't gamers on any level and controlling any video game character (When I've shown them some games) was always a difficult proposition.
Some people have no problems and some have issues. I'll be honest, I have yet to become adept at using any current game controller.
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The first 3 are about content and the sencond 3 are about social interaction/ community. Would be interesting on how they effect each other I guess but not sure how you could do that at this point in the MMO world.
I'm not saying the games themselves are dumb or smart. In fact, yes Master Blaster would be even better if it had a save feature. I'm simply saying that most modern games require zero intelligence or skill to play. You could be a 9 year old, a chimp or a pickled cabbage in a jar; if you click the button long enough, you'll reach "end game".
Bollocks. I know for a fact that if I stick my fiancee in front of a computer with any MMO running, she will die on even normal content; I know this because I've tried to get her into some. You're just so used to the mental gymnastics and muscle memory that go into playing any modern game that you think it's "brainless".
MMO combat isn't "dumb" or "brainless", but it IS a lot worse than combat in pretty much any other genre of videogames. That is the problem: not that the combat itself is terrible, but that it's terrible in comparison to other games we play.
I have to agree with you. I have friends who aren't gamers on any level and controlling any video game character (When I've shown them some games) was always a difficult proposition.
Some people have no problems and some have issues. I'll be honest, I have yet to become adept at using any current game controller.
...what? I'm not referring to the player's ability to use a computer or d-pad. I was referring the the fact that there is no skill required, whatsoever, when it comes to leveling up a character. You've reached level 80, congrats, you've just spent a lot of time doing the exact same thing as every other player. I can't even get my brain around how people can find that fun.
I'm not saying the games themselves are dumb or smart. In fact, yes Master Blaster would be even better if it had a save feature. I'm simply saying that most modern games require zero intelligence or skill to play. You could be a 9 year old, a chimp or a pickled cabbage in a jar; if you click the button long enough, you'll reach "end game".
Bollocks. I know for a fact that if I stick my fiancee in front of a computer with any MMO running, she will die on even normal content; I know this because I've tried to get her into some. You're just so used to the mental gymnastics and muscle memory that go into playing any modern game that you think it's "brainless".
MMO combat isn't "dumb" or "brainless", but it IS a lot worse than combat in pretty much any other genre of videogames. That is the problem: not that the combat itself is terrible, but that it's terrible in comparison to other games we play.
I have to agree with you. I have friends who aren't gamers on any level and controlling any video game character (When I've shown them some games) was always a difficult proposition.
Some people have no problems and some have issues. I'll be honest, I have yet to become adept at using any current game controller.
...what? I'm not referring to the player's ability to use a computer or d-pad. I was referring the the fact that there is no skill required, whatsoever, when it comes to leveling up a character. You've reached level 80, congrats, you've just spent a lot of time doing the exact same thing as every other player. I can't even get my brain around how people can find that fun.
While I really dislike level grinding myself, this has been true since the earliest MMORPGs. I't hard to call it 'dumbed down' when most MMORPGs since the first ones have done so. EVE is considered innovative since it shifted the grinding away from the levelign into other areas.
Ok, let me point out a specific that I find silly about modern MMOs. (I go into others in other posts.)
Yellow exclamation points!!!
Seriously? A exclamation point to tell players "Hey! Maybe this guy wants to ask you something!" You couldn't just let us talk to people on our own?
This is possibly one of the most blinding examples of the hand-holding in today's MMOs. Click an exclamation point, read the last sentence in a dialogue box, kill stuff, and then this invariably leads you to the next exclamation point.
I played WoW and couldn't escape these things. I would deliberately leave a cluster of yellow "bang bangs" in town and go off on my own to explore or find something else to do (craft, fish, socialize, anything!). Guess what? There was nothing to do. It's like you're a puppet on strings, but they try to convince you that you're free.
You forget that the old ways of doing this were just as silly. The exclamation marks eliminated the need to click on every NPC looking for a quest when most of the were just scenary. That was just a brain dead approach. Exclamation marks is just a more honest way of doing the same thing.
You forget that the old ways of doing this were just as silly. The exclamation marks eliminated the need to click on every NPC looking for a quest when most of the were just scenary. That was just a brain dead approach. Exclamation marks is just a more honest way of doing the same thing.
Yes, walking around and tapping every NPC on the shoulder was an annoying way to locate quests. However, I'm not a fan of floating names - or of floating punctuation. Even something as simple as a key that I can hold down to see the punctuation marks would be nice. A key to be able to see floating names would be nice, too. Each key would let me see stuff at a glance when I wanted to, but not be faced with it if I'm not interested. Start out with it displayed all the time, with an option to display it on demand.
Becoming dumbed down? Where have you been the last 5-6 years?
The moment a genre stops being nische and starts becoming mainstream is when it always becomes dumbed down. Why? Well honestly, most people are lazy and rather stupid so to cater to the masses they have to be dumbed down.
While I really dislike level grinding myself, this has been true since the earliest MMORPGs. I't hard to call it 'dumbed down' when most MMORPGs since the first ones have done so. EVE is considered innovative since it shifted the grinding away from the levelign into other areas.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Yes, if your goal has always been nothing more than increasing your character's level, then there has always been a grind. My point is that in older MMOs that was not the focus of the game. It was a very, very small piece and there was a TON of other stuff to do. UO had events and parties, customizable houses, you could go treasure hunting, etc.
But now, people only see the combat and level gains. That's not a game! It's certainly not an MMORPG in which you interact and play with thousands of other people at the same time. It's just a waste of potential.
And yes, I do agree that EVE did a great job of having other things to do beyond just leveling and combat. I would say its still not as much as the MMOs of yesteryear, but then, I haven't played EVE in a while, so I could be wrong.
You forget that the old ways of doing this were just as silly. The exclamation marks eliminated the need to click on every NPC looking for a quest when most of the were just scenary. That was just a brain dead approach. Exclamation marks is just a more honest way of doing the same thing.
Yes, walking around and tapping every NPC on the shoulder was an annoying way to locate quests. However, I'm not a fan of floating names - or of floating punctuation. Even something as simple as a key that I can hold down to see the punctuation marks would be nice. A key to be able to see floating names would be nice, too. Each key would let me see stuff at a glance when I wanted to, but not be faced with it if I'm not interested. Start out with it displayed all the time, with an option to display it on demand.
However, that is really a matter or aesthetics and not whether a feature is 'smart' or 'dumb'. Often the smart way to do something is not the pretiest or eye pleasing. Personally I am on the practical side and prefer graphics to be informative rather than just pleasing to the eye.
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My bad for the confusion, I'm talking about instanced events not just instances. For example, events that would show a dragon tearing through a wall when you arive at his layer or whatever, as opposed to the dragon just standing in one place waiting to die. I know MMO's without instanced events all too well, their all the same. GW2 would be a prime example of what I'm talking about. Unfourtunately there still isn't a way to have such events in an open world without having instances. This is what I meant by finding a good balance between instances and an open world. Another example would be when the starting Worgen area in Cataclysm completely floods after you've done certain quests. Unfortunately it's WoW but to me that still innovation. Either way couldn't have that flood without an instance.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
I feel part of the dumbing down starts with the hardware and networking technollogy.
Videogames have become one of the largest profit entertainment industries, even larger than the movie industry. The movie companies have their own channels, theaters, and cable/internet companies.
With the billions the game industry makes off of us. Why can't they have a gamers developer union that actually fights for our interests? What do I mean by interests?
1.Fight for our rights to gaming culture. By that I mean stop letting the suits in Washington or the esrb try and stymie the different avenues of gaming. Games are no longer just for teens or younger players. Violence has been on the tv, in our homes, all over the world since the dawn of time. There should be cute kiddy games for the young ones and adult type games for well adults.
2.We live in or close to the age of fully intergrated digital entertainment. And gaming, downloading movies/games will require massive speeds to test the limits of what we can interact with globally.
We the gamers deserve a dedicated gaming internet service offered by the game developers union. An affordable service that doesn't share traffic with the other isp providers. So we can truly have massive mulitplayer games. Imagine massive PvE or PvP skirmishes with not just 10s to 100s but numbering in the multi thousands.
3.With that money they make off providing a global dedicated gaming service. They could put some of that profit back into technology development.or game development education. By this I mean have a group that creates global software tools/engines for all gaming development companies. So they can spend less time with the technical jargon. And more time on concept/design stages, testing, basically just focused on game content and original ideas.
I feel since every gamer is different, there should be a game out there for every gamer. Problem is money, schedules, the fear of risk, and us the players force developers into creative black holes. Like a mistress, we all want to be courted and wowed by new exciting experiences. But often if those attempts at the diamonds in the rough are slightly flawwed. We demand our money back or jump ship to the next game. No game is perfect, and if you spend all your time focusing on flaws. You will never find that perfect marriage.
As I said earlier I think there should be many kinds of games to serve the many kinds of gamers. The perfect mmo to me, is one that doesn't deal in absolutes. It should have a themepark story, with a couple of branches or choices to be made. No story or movie is good if you only see fragments all out of order. And most people are not great directors. It should have a flexible economy. Different ways to make money. Farming, crafting, instances, bartering, gambling, and some other things. Each of those professions should have different levels of entry. Very accesible to pick up and make some easy profit. But also have versions of them that require high skill and some that just reward time invested. Every class should have unique skills, looks, story, but also not share the same UI or mechanics of control for every class in combat. But not so unique that certain content can't be completed without a said class. Quests just need to be varied, if they become to similar to each other it will grow stale regardless of how fun it is the first few times. Devs have plenty of games to draw quest inspiration from. It's just a matter of writing hundreds of mini stories, and taking the time a majority of them different. My last comment I know for sure will draw disagreement. Themeparks might be better for the most part. But no matter how good the ride is. You will get tired of riding the same ride. Sandpark has the ultimate endgame potential imo. It just hasn't been done the right way yet. Some game company out there needs to find a way to make sandbox gameplay very accesible, not bogged down in menus, not affect other aspect of the game, not require large single play times, and create tools for player driven rewards.
The intent of the first MMOs were the same as they are today, to make money for the developer. They catered to their primary audience, which at the time happened to be nerds. Over time, that changed as games went mainstream and the nerd audience became a minuscule part of the marketplace. Games evolve. Deal with it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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The intent of the first MMOs were the same as they are today, to make money for the developer. They catered to their primary audience, which at the time happened to be nerds. Over time, that changed as games went mainstream and the nerd audience became a minuscule part of the marketplace. Games evolve. Deal with it.
Almost got it right. Games certainly have devolved in order to cater to the broader market, not much we can do about it except find the fun we can while sharing MMO's with the Knuckle-dragging crowd."True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All forms of enteratinment media are getting dumbed down, and have been since thier inception, in my opinion. They keep catering to the younger crowd. As we get older, it seems like what the younger crowd wants is more immature and easy. But we were all the target audience at one time or another. I guess it's just a matter of perspective.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I don't believe things are being dumb down, I simply think a lot of people want more. I mean, I loved Transformers when I was a kid but if you ask me to watch the show now... WTF!? not watching THAT crap. Like fine wine, we age and are tastes change.
You can't expect every media ((Gaming industry)) to keep makingproducts for your age group... Most teen, young adult or adult grow out of gaming. Or if they don't they still game a lot less. This is in general, don't spam me if your still an hardcore geezer.. I MEANT in general. As an example, I'll take my group of friends ((That aren't that different from many groups of friends out there)).
12 to 18: Hardcore gaming.
19 to 25: Gamer with a social life.
26 to now: Casual gamer but most of the time, something else comes first.
Later to Geezer-hood: Who knows, when I'm retired I might go back to being hardcore.
Anyways, games are not being Dumb Down but simply adapted to the majority gamers. Which sadly, aren't us anymore.
My opinion anyways!
________________________
"If RL was an MMO, I'd probably be getting laid more often..."
I think it'd be interesting to see the ages of the people posting their opinions. I'm betting the people saying "Yes, games are being dumbed down" are older than those saying not.
I was recently at a conference that was largely centered around OLD games (colecovision, atari, etc.) and I picked up a copy of Master Blaster for NES. I started playing it and its still a great game. One problem, NO SAVE. That's right, you play it until you beat it. If you don't, you start over the next time you turn it on.
In my self-righteous pride, I'm tempted to follow this up with "Gamers these days don't know what hardcore is!" I'd then go get my cane, some iced tea, and sit on my front porch to watch these fancy new "automobiles" drive by my house...
Seriously though, you can call it evolving or devolving, but mainstream games are absolutely being "dumbed down" to cater to the mass market of instant gratification youth. Anyone who can't see the hand-holding in games like WoW simply haven't experienced enough games.
People don't want to be challenged anymore, they just want to be "awesome", then show off their barbies to all their awesome friends. It's sad, but its a simple matter of money. People will pay money to be awesome, not to "work" (aka, be challenged to progress).
The veterans and, yes I'll say it, true "hardcore" gamers are a minority. We'll just have to find our style of games in the smaller niche markets. Which really, is fine with me. Those types of games tend to have a more mature playerbase anyway.
i dont think mmorpgs are dumbed down,theres lots of proof of that,in todays games you can get the original rpg feeling from games like you got from P&P games,developers these days delivers only this,you can really feel for example in wow how powerful and or angry your orc or tauren is when you kill rats,or how intelligent your gnome is,its incredible how these magical developers can deliver this feeling today ,you can really feel it when your avatar dies in rift for example,it really hurts and its quite realistic also,the skill needed to take you down and the skill needed to woke up,amazing death simulation.in pretty much every game its extrasuper roleplaying when it comes to your avatar,your character looks exactly like you play it,its so immersive process,just google best build then click couple icons on your avatars powerscreen and you can get the ultimate roleplaying feelings.in the future things are going even more crazy,you can fly in space and get the real feeling that you are actually flying there in swtor,they use technology from the rpg future which was used for example in game like http://gamesdbase.com/Media/SYSTEM/Commodore_64/Snap/big/Star_Wars_-_1983_-_Parker_Brothers.jpg
dumbed down,bleh,not happening.
Generation P
So are you saying that a game without a save option is 'smarter' or 'dumber' than with one?
For the record I started with Atari 800 XL games if you want to judge my gaming history by that.
I'm not saying the games themselves are dumb or smart. In fact, yes Master Blaster would be even better if it had a save feature. I'm simply saying that most modern games require zero intelligence or skill to play. You could be a 9 year old, a chimp or a pickled cabbage in a jar; if you click the button long enough, you'll reach "end game".
You are only trying to show off with your 64k memory, some of us had to make do with 48k.
It's hard for me to respond if you use so much hyperbole.
Obviously, no game can be finished if you just 'click a button long enough' unless you have an infinite amount of time to try an infinite amount of button pushing combinations. Maybe some of those horrible Full Motion Video games from the past could fall into that category. Certainly no modern MMORPG comes even close to that category.
If you define better where you put the line between 'smart' and 'dumb' games we might have a better discussion.
The MMO market is very "same old crap" style now and it's frustrating me to no end, so much so that i haven't played an MMO for a very long time due to it being the same old thing, i'll do the trial, i'll enjoy the start sometimes, buy the game, play till the end of the free purchase time and end up leaving for good once i find out that it's the same old raid for this crap, raid for that crap etc. I haven't found a game since 2005 that offers something other than raiding and PvPing once you've done everything else you want to do. (before others start in on this part, no there isn't any meaningful crafting in current MMOs. Not the type that i enjoy which is extremely complex, some may not like complex systems but i enjoy using my brain, if i wanted to just log onto something and kill things i'd do what i do now and play FPS games online.)
Personally, I find the bias a little strong to be taken seriously as a paper, but I'll indulge.
I think there's a lack of trust between the developer and player when designing a MMO. The most basic example is the bi-faction system, which implies that player-made factions are potential dangers to the enjoyment of a game. On one hand, they are justified in doing so, given that the primary frustrations of classic multiplayer were centered around too much freedom given to players, such as looting rights or open PK. What many people are calling, 'dumbed down' was an accomadation to a serious problem in multiplayer games in general a 6-8 years back.
To answer your last question, the dumbing down of MMOs does not contribute to the social ills you're talking about. They were already present, and will continue to be present, outside of game design complexity. Blaming such issues on the lack of difficulty or freedom doesn't make sense because they are largely unrelated to one another. If anything, an easier game ensures less emotional attachment towards items lost/ego scarred because of a reduced amount of personal investment. That is an issue of accountability and anonynimity.
Bollocks. I know for a fact that if I stick my fiancee in front of a computer with any MMO running, she will die on even normal content; I know this because I've tried to get her into some. You're just so used to the mental gymnastics and muscle memory that go into playing any modern game that you think it's "brainless".
MMO combat isn't "dumb" or "brainless", but it IS a lot worse than combat in pretty much any other genre of videogames. That is the problem: not that the combat itself is terrible, but that it's terrible <i>in comparison to</i> other games we play.
Ok, let me point out a specific that I find silly about modern MMOs. (I go into others in other posts.)
Yellow exclamation points!!!
Seriously? A exclamation point to tell players "Hey! Maybe this guy wants to ask you something!" You couldn't just let us talk to people on our own?
This is possibly one of the most blinding examples of the hand-holding in today's MMOs. Click an exclamation point, read the last sentence in a dialogue box, kill stuff, and then this invariably leads you to the next exclamation point.
I played WoW and couldn't escape these things. I would deliberately leave a cluster of yellow "bang bangs" in town and go off on my own to explore or find something else to do (craft, fish, socialize, anything!). Guess what? There was nothing to do. It's like you're a puppet on strings, but they try to convince you that you're free.
I have to agree with you. I have friends who aren't gamers on any level and controlling any video game character (When I've shown them some games) was always a difficult proposition.
Some people have no problems and some have issues. I'll be honest, I have yet to become adept at using any current game controller.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The first 3 are about content and the sencond 3 are about social interaction/ community. Would be interesting on how they effect each other I guess but not sure how you could do that at this point in the MMO world.
...what? I'm not referring to the player's ability to use a computer or d-pad. I was referring the the fact that there is no skill required, whatsoever, when it comes to leveling up a character. You've reached level 80, congrats, you've just spent a lot of time doing the exact same thing as every other player. I can't even get my brain around how people can find that fun.
While I really dislike level grinding myself, this has been true since the earliest MMORPGs. I't hard to call it 'dumbed down' when most MMORPGs since the first ones have done so. EVE is considered innovative since it shifted the grinding away from the levelign into other areas.
You forget that the old ways of doing this were just as silly. The exclamation marks eliminated the need to click on every NPC looking for a quest when most of the were just scenary. That was just a brain dead approach. Exclamation marks is just a more honest way of doing the same thing.
Yes, walking around and tapping every NPC on the shoulder was an annoying way to locate quests. However, I'm not a fan of floating names - or of floating punctuation. Even something as simple as a key that I can hold down to see the punctuation marks would be nice. A key to be able to see floating names would be nice, too. Each key would let me see stuff at a glance when I wanted to, but not be faced with it if I'm not interested. Start out with it displayed all the time, with an option to display it on demand.
Becoming dumbed down? Where have you been the last 5-6 years?
The moment a genre stops being nische and starts becoming mainstream is when it always becomes dumbed down. Why? Well honestly, most people are lazy and rather stupid so to cater to the masses they have to be dumbed down.
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This is exactly what I'm talking about. Yes, if your goal has always been nothing more than increasing your character's level, then there has always been a grind. My point is that in older MMOs that was not the focus of the game. It was a very, very small piece and there was a TON of other stuff to do. UO had events and parties, customizable houses, you could go treasure hunting, etc.
But now, people only see the combat and level gains. That's not a game! It's certainly not an MMORPG in which you interact and play with thousands of other people at the same time. It's just a waste of potential.
And yes, I do agree that EVE did a great job of having other things to do beyond just leveling and combat. I would say its still not as much as the MMOs of yesteryear, but then, I haven't played EVE in a while, so I could be wrong.
However, that is really a matter or aesthetics and not whether a feature is 'smart' or 'dumb'. Often the smart way to do something is not the pretiest or eye pleasing. Personally I am on the practical side and prefer graphics to be informative rather than just pleasing to the eye.