Duely noted and well said. I really dont think that console gaming has had an effect on mmos with the exception of Call of Duty series if you really want to call that a mmo. The only real mmo that was out there was FF11. I heard rumor of xbox live was the reason that mmos were being cancelled on 360. I read that 360 isnt in the market for mmorgpg and how 11 made it on the console is beyond me. Im glad it did, it was my first true taste of mmorpgs. True 75 40 and 20 man instances are gone. ( besieged for example 360 could not handle besieged and would freeze,) . WIth the sucess of dcuo expect to see alot of games being released to the ps3 wich i beilieve would be a good thing. It will expand the audience.
My main point being , that for a period of the last three or four years , I believe Dev's have been attempting to get MMO's into the console market. Have they been successful, for the most part, no. The key reason Micro$oft and $ony have decided either the pie is too small to allow anyone to have a bite of , or they just can't be bothered for the most part to deal with it. FF11 was probably a test case to see what the issues would be for M$, they decided it wasn't worth pursuing.
It's my opinion that Consoles have been for the most part responsible for the stagnation in the industry, to a large degree. Especially the four to five years. That's beginning to change , not that I'm a fan , but EA is actually leading the way. You have to respect the innovative initative they've taken. Firstly with the Frostbite 2 engine, and SW:ToR. Whether these are successful is to be determined. Frostbite 2 used in BF:BC 2 shows great promise and therefore may launch BF 3 to dizzying heights, especially on PC, which is hungry for 64 player maps. SW:ToR has some innovations , it really comes down to how interesting they make the game. You have wildly popular IP, this make so much harder to please a large audience , it's quite a gamble. If they are successful , it'll be for the better in the long run, for both PC's and consoles. It will put to rest the idea that :
1 ) PC's are done as a gaming platform
2 ) That consoles are the main development template to be used when designing games.
Now if they could only get a serious handle and make a serious effort on piracy and hacking , but that's a different topic.
I don't think that they are at all, I think MMOs are improving all the time. The only people who complain are those who want to escape from reality into a game world. The point of a game is entertainment, not an escapist fantasy. There just aren't enough of the escapist types out there to make any modern MMO financially viable, thus nobody makes games dedicated to them. That is as it should be, genres evolve over time and as things change, older systems die out from disuse. The MMO market largely killed the PnP market, simply because you didn't have to find other people, wait for them to come over to your house, sit around a table and play. You could jump online any time and play at a moment's notice. Today, you have people who may have grown up on consoles who are the primary player (and payer) for MMOs, of course companies are going to cater to them, that's where their money comes from! There just aren't enough old-school players who still want the fruatrating, obnoxious gameplay that they grew up with, they aren't a viable market for modern games.
In the end, you have to understand and cater to your market to be successful and games like WoW are doing just that. That's why they're growing all the time. People need to get over the fact that old-school is largely dead, except in a few niche games, and isn't ever coming back. Either modify your views, go find something else to do, or live with the remants of your old system, just like the few PnP gamers have done. They still get together and play a game now and then, but there just aren't gaming stores out there like there were, most game companies have gone bankrupt or are down to releasing a few PDFs a year for people to pay for and download. That industry is dead, just like old-school MMOs are dead. Good riddance to all of them.
In Magic: The Gathering, I have 7 options before me and I can use them freely to dictate my actions, I can do awesome plays or brutal mistakes from the beginning of the game. (Granted games only last for 30-40 minutes if you count those 2 rounds and it's a completely different game! :P) That's why I love it. It's not like an MMORPG where I stand around killing mobs doing generally uninteresting things and talking to friends to prevent the boredom from forcing me to log off. I should be challenged, I should have to think! I did like a certain game "Elsword" though. I played a bit of Grand Chase, and it seriously made me cringe. I guess KOG' decided to learn from their mistakes. CBT just felt like a generic beat 'em up though. Hopefully they raise difficulty and increase the odds of super pimped out mobs, I enjoyed those.
Wow, what a shitty rant.
Summary - Why do MMORPGs force you to do things you don't want to do for the first couple of levels and force uninteresting skills upon you? They should make the mobs MUCH harder, but in return give you more tools so you can think about your moves and such...
- Anigous
**Holy shit this looks like a thread...
"i have a lvl 26 maplestory warrior lvl 9 asda story archer and a adventure quest mage lvl 15 and my xfire is my bro's"
Duely noted and well said. I really dont think that console gaming has had an effect on mmos with the exception of Call of Duty series if you really want to call that a mmo. The only real mmo that was out there was FF11. I heard rumor of xbox live was the reason that mmos were being cancelled on 360. I read that 360 isnt in the market for mmorgpg and how 11 made it on the console is beyond me. Im glad it did, it was my first true taste of mmorpgs. True 75 40 and 20 man instances are gone. ( besieged for example 360 could not handle besieged and would freeze,) . WIth the sucess of dcuo expect to see alot of games being released to the ps3 wich i beilieve would be a good thing. It will expand the audience.
My main point being , that for a period of the last three or four years , I believe Dev's have been attempting to get MMO's into the console market. Have they been successful, for the most part, no. The key reason Micro$oft and $ony have decided either the pie is too small to allow anyone to have a bite of , or they just can't be bothered for the most part to deal with it. FF11 was probably a test case to see what the issues would be for M$, they decided it wasn't worth pursuing.
It's my opinion that Consoles have been for the most part responsible for the stagnation in the industry, to a large degree. Especially the four to five years. That's beginning to change , not that I'm a fan , but EA is actually leading the way. You have to respect the innovative initative they've taken. Firstly with the Frostbite 2 engine, and SW:ToR. Whether these are successful is to be determined. Frostbite 2 used in BF:BC 2 shows great promise and therefore may launch BF 3 to dizzying heights, especially on PC, which is hungry for 64 player maps. SW:ToR has some innovations , it really comes down to how interesting they make the game. You have wildly popular IP, this make so much harder to please a large audience , it's quite a gamble. If they are successful , it'll be for the better in the long run, for both PC's and consoles. It will put to rest the idea that :
1 ) PC's are done as a gaming platform
2 ) That consoles are the main development template to be used when designing games.
Now if they could only get a serious handle and make a serious effort on piracy and hacking , but that's a different topic.
The reason why mmo havent been on microsoft is true theyre not in the market for mmorpg. Sony is investing in the genre. I dont believe its the console thats stagnating the mmo industry . Theyre having to share the online first person shooter market they once dominated. I dont think companies would use a console dev kits to make a game on the pc. The only game that they ever did that too would be Final Fantasy 14 wich was designed for controller use. PC are not dead as a gaming platform MMORPG and RTS and FPS will always be played on PC.
Console templates will only be used on Console games no way in hell would they do that to a pc game. too much power not to be used. Consoles entering the mmorpg will only make the industry stronger.
To be honest, I do think things were removed from many MMOs that may have not been necessarily in good function, but because even thought they were not too difficult, they were incredibly stupid to exist in the first place. The hunter's ammo and pet items were an inventory tax, it's like making someone keep track of food or mundane arrows in Dungeons and Dragons. Tons of games have convolution and bad mechanics we all accept as commonplace because they may bring good function with them. Class/level systems provide gateways and pacing to content and balance between characters and help define needs and roles for players to fill, but skill build systems allow players to choose their own characters and activities by the piece for everything and may not have as much of a content gateway.
Fast Travel, auction Houses, mailboxes and teleports shrink the world but often provide money sinks to some degree. Fast travel and teleportation removes tedium out of much more expansive areas and links cities together so players who call different zones across the world home can still group without much difficulty.
Auction Houses added in much needed functionality of allowing game economies to form a good reasonable medium and allow quick access to essential trade items when interaction would be little more than "hello, gold in window, click accept, okay thanks later." across the span of a minute after a 5+ minute travel for some games. People STILL sell items over global and trade channels, and in fact for many games such channels were so overcrowded , even if vendor options could be added to many games the time it would take to locate one needs outside of a hub listing system would be just as bad. (like EVE online has)
Mailboxes just allow long distance quick sending of the aforementioned trade window sales and allows people the ability to set up such sales to people offline which really *is* just a pure improvement, like private message windows over any distance from the days of just say and having to use ICQ like in the days of UO.
Games will always change, and there are certainly plenty of games out there in MMOs with what can be viewed as regressive design and plenty upcoming with new ideas and themes to MMO worlds, but dumbed down is quite a ridiculous phrase to use when once long ago many mechanics were secretive and convoluted. Wikis, game guides and in game helpbots prospered because of this but for some games it was just out of hand. World of Warcraft has become far more streamlined and fast paced than it once was, but this is more because of mechanic based reinforcement being added into the game rather than regressive design. Gearscore, simplified stats, better quest pointers, more hubbing is good on a game that really never prided itself on being a very complicated game, but rather a very polished one where players should be able to understand what they see at first glance down to "complicated" mechanics.
Tabletop role playing games were full of caveats, "gotchas!" mechanical imbalance and plagued by Adversarial GMing advice from others to continue a bad cycle for years and years. 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons compared to 3rd edition and 2nd is MUCH more "Simple" and shouted as "WoW-ified" and dumbed down by many that dislike the system, but it fixed man of the issues like convoluted mechanics based on tradition and power imbalance based on terrible novels, characters, dated campaign settings and catch all magic systems, without tons of useless character abilities and brought a much stronger focus on mechanic balance over preserving the traditional fighting-man v wizard problem. (or class traps entirely)
New and old MMOs all have their issues, some from convolution to some actually being too easy or too bland and lacking eye catching game making thematics and mechanics
Good point. I think the D&D comparisons are very apt. I was one part of the omega-bookkeeper camp that insisted upon inventories (and weights) being detailed down to the last ration and nonmagical arrow. It took me a while to get used to the idea that you can handwave those details away due to how little they add to the game. People should not shout down each and every simplification on the grounds that simpler = dumber = worse.
I dont think companies would use a console dev kits to make a game on the pc. The only game that they ever did that too would be Final Fantasy 14 wich was designed for controller use. PC are not dead as a gaming platform MMORPG and RTS and FPS will always be played on PC.
Console templates will only be used on Console games no way in hell would they do that to a pc game. too much power not to be used. Consoles entering the mmorpg will only make the industry stronger.
Let's see where to start , Champions Online , Global Agenda , Star Trek Online , those are just a few I tested and they were designed for controller use and to go to Console. I'm sure if I start to research a bit more I could probably dig up a few more . These started Dev three to four years ago , so you see where the intent was.That's just FYI.
Good point. I think the D&D comparisons are very apt. I was one part of the omega-bookkeeper camp that insisted upon inventories (and weights) being detailed down to the last ration and nonmagical arrow. It took me a while to get used to the idea that you can handwave those details away due to how little they add to the game. People should not shout down each and every simplification on the grounds that simpler = dumber = worse.
Well, yes. weighing every small thing your character carries in a RPG is not fun and not worth the bother.
I been playing a lot, but we only keep track of it we we need to. Say that you kill a dragon and find a mountain of gold, there it actually matters. Or if some munchkin player actually carries around everything he can find and might possibly have the slightest use of.
You don't need to put weight on food, arrows or similar small stuff. You do however need to keep your eye on armor and weapons, that stuff actually weights somewhat.
The same goes for most things in MMOs. You don't have to add mechanics for every small thing. But things can get too simple and unreaistic and people will abuse it.
Take big inventories. Not realistic, but does it matter? The thing however is that the reason that you need thos inventories is because every mob drops some useless vendortrash that you need to carry around for no real purpose. It adds nothing to the fun in the game. It offers very little timesink for the devs (you need to vendortrash once in a while). No one ever gets happy when some vendortrash drops.
So why the hell is it there? It is unreastic and boring at the same time. Cut it out and you can give the players a lot less inventory space without being annoying.
MMOs have many weird stuff like that, that both complicates things and make the game less realistic without actually making the game more fun to play. And all devs adds them anyways because all other games have them.
MMOs actually could use some "smarting down" instead. Someone should think through all features and consider if they are fun, add realism and immersion or just is a dumb idea and should be removed.
The real dumbing down of MMOs is that they made 90% of the game so easy a 8 year old kid can master it, not that they added a broker or auction house (even though I prefer player owned stores).
I dont think companies would use a console dev kits to make a game on the pc. The only game that they ever did that too would be Final Fantasy 14 wich was designed for controller use. PC are not dead as a gaming platform MMORPG and RTS and FPS will always be played on PC.
Console templates will only be used on Console games no way in hell would they do that to a pc game. too much power not to be used. Consoles entering the mmorpg will only make the industry stronger.
Let's see where to start , Champions Online , Global Agenda , Star Trek Online , those are just a few I tested and they were designed for controller use and to go to Console. I'm sure if I start to research a bit more I could probably dig up a few more . These started Dev three to four years ago , so you see where the intent was.That's just FYI.
And???? Do you see any of these games on Console yes or no? Even if they use dev kits its problably for cost cutting reason doesnt mean these games are heading to the console. And it has nothing to do with dumbing down the mmorpg. The games have gotten easier due to the audience. If you play console games some of those games are hard as hell . As for the pc its far from being dead for a gaming platform. No way will people stop playing mmorpgs and rts and fps on pcs now way in hell .
Hi there guys and gals, I came here to get your opinions and hopefully begin a discussion that I feel could benefit greatly from your experiences and views as seasoned gamers.
I am currently in the process of writing a paper for university/college on the MMORPG genre. The focus of which centres around the debate that “In recent years the MMO industry has come under a significant amount of criticism for “dumbing down” its content to cater for a lesser skilled, larger audience”. My research has led me to discover that there are many arguments for and against this point. However, as we are all aware MMO games are commonly home to large scale, thriving communities which are of great importance to its participants. Just like the ripples in the pond saying, a seemingly small event can have catastrophic consequences. So what I am asking here is, from your experiences do you think that there is any truth to the criticisms that MMORPGs are becoming “dumbed down” and what, if any, effect is this having on the communities?
Below are some points to consider:
Is grinding (for levels or gear, i.e. raids) becoming a more streamlined process? Or is content getting too easy?
If game content is being made too easy, do guilds suffer? And is there any point to interacting in such a way anymore? Is team play dead?
Does “dumbing down” remove a players motivation to play games? Or does easy and entertaining make for longer play time?
Reputation and Renown? Did they ever exist in a MMO world, and do they still?
Are interactions online of any actual importance? Or have any resemblance to that of real life interaction?
Is “dumbing down” turning the whole MMO community into item ninjas, cheats, and abusive idiots? Or has the community stayed the same? Or always been…well…idiots?
However these points are only guidelines and I am really interested to see what your views on the whole subject are. As well as what your predictions for the future direction of the genre may be. Any responses will be greatly appreciated.
Since when were mmorpg's not grinding and easy? The first mmorpg's were txt based quests that required the player to go kill enemy A and retrieve item A to give to player B for item B etc. Imo mmorpg's have ALWAYS been a "dumbed down" gameplay experience, yea come at me MMO veterans.
So newer MMORPG's are more instanced these days, thats a huge upgrade to me. It's much more entertaining to be able to see how you've effected the world around you because of the actions you've done, as opposed to reading a paragraph telling you that you've changed event A even though event A remains the same as before. At least todays mmo's do a better job of masking the fact that your essentially doing the exact same thing with every quest you do. MMORPG's are evolving but their not being "dumbed down" imo their just growing to provide more entertainment. Isn't that the point of an mmo anyway =]?
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Since when were mmorpg's not grinding and easy? The first mmorpg's were txt based quests that required the player to go kill enemy A and retrieve item A to give to player B for item B etc. Imo mmorpg's have ALWAYS been a "dumbed down" gameplay experience, yea come at me MMO veterans.
So newer MMORPG's are more instanced these days, thats a huge upgrade to me. It's much more entertaining to be able to see how you've effected the world around you because of the actions you've done, as opposed to reading a paragraph telling you that you've changed event A even though event A remains the same as before. At least todays mmo's do a better job of masking the fact that your essentially doing the exact same thing with every quest you do. MMORPG's are evolving but their not being "dumbed down" imo their just growing to provide more entertainment. Isn't that the point of an mmo anyway =]?
MUDs weren't really MMOs, they are just like P&P RPGs the roots of MMOs but not the same thing.
The thing about instancing makes me just wonder one thing: Why bother to play massive multiplayer like that? If I want to change the entire game by myself I play a single player game instead.
My first MMO was Meridian 59 in 96. I don't really think that the quests are much better masked now, I killed 10 rats then and I still kill 10 rats now. There is more flavor text but it is at best poorly written and I rarely bother to read it anymore.
I would say that games are slightly dumbed down today. Now a 8 year old kid can play most of the game easily, the same kid would have gotten nowhere in M59.
It isn't all bad, I don't miss standing hours waiting for a spawn but the quest have gone nowhere in 15 years, they are exactly the same as always, phasing, instancing or whatever.
The thing is that old MMOs did some things better, newer MMOs do other stuff better while they both still suck at stuff they should have fixes ages ago, like vendortrash and rat killing quests.
The perfect game will have some old stuff, some modern stuff and some new stuff. Take a third from each and you would have a great game (well the best parts of course).
I dont think companies would use a console dev kits to make a game on the pc. The only game that they ever did that too would be Final Fantasy 14 wich was designed for controller use. PC are not dead as a gaming platform MMORPG and RTS and FPS will always be played on PC.
Console templates will only be used on Console games no way in hell would they do that to a pc game. too much power not to be used. Consoles entering the mmorpg will only make the industry stronger.
Let's see where to start , Champions Online , Global Agenda , Star Trek Online , those are just a few I tested and they were designed for controller use and to go to Console. I'm sure if I start to research a bit more I could probably dig up a few more . These started Dev three to four years ago , so you see where the intent was.That's just FYI.
And???? Do you see any of these games on Console yes or no? Even if they use dev kits its problably for cost cutting reason doesnt mean these games are heading to the console. And it has nothing to do with dumbing down the mmorpg. The games have gotten easier due to the audience. If you play console games some of those games are hard as hell . As for the pc its far from being dead for a gaming platform. No way will people stop playing mmorpgs and rts and fps on pcs now way in hell .
Actually it does dumb down the UI that's usable on a console run controller and basically limit what it's capable of, in turn simplify ing the game. That's not to say that you couldn't use a keyboard and mouse on a console , it's just that most console players don't play in that manner. Personnally I'm a huge fan of PC's , and no-one is is comparing the level of difficulty.
As for those games not getting on PS 3 or xBox , that was already covered to a degree. I was just pointing out that these games were specifically designed to be on consoles. I think a lot of the weaknesses are evident once you play them . It's not that they are bad games , they are just poor MMO's. I agree the audience have a certain expectation because of it. Think about how many people now play PC games with a console controller as part of their rigs ? There are advantages , but I see them more as disadvantages as far as MMO's go. I'm not advocating a purist approach , just pointing out things people are unaware of. You stated you didn't think companies would use a console dev kit , and I gave you three games that they did, as case in poiint.
the next big game really needs to bring some difficulty back to MMORPGs. These games should REQUIRE you to farm hundreds of hours on end for an item used in an epic quest, very similar to EQ. Every game now when you hit max level all there is to do is Honor Farm or something similar
Since when were mmorpg's not grinding and easy? The first mmorpg's were txt based quests that required the player to go kill enemy A and retrieve item A to give to player B for item B etc. Imo mmorpg's have ALWAYS been a "dumbed down" gameplay experience, yea come at me MMO veterans.
So newer MMORPG's are more instanced these days, thats a huge upgrade to me. It's much more entertaining to be able to see how you've effected the world around you because of the actions you've done, as opposed to reading a paragraph telling you that you've changed event A even though event A remains the same as before. At least todays mmo's do a better job of masking the fact that your essentially doing the exact same thing with every quest you do. MMORPG's are evolving but their not being "dumbed down" imo their just growing to provide more entertainment. Isn't that the point of an mmo anyway =]?
MUDs weren't really MMOs, they are just like P&P RPGs the roots of MMOs but not the same thing.
The thing about instancing makes me just wonder one thing: Why bother to play massive multiplayer like that? If I want to change the entire game by myself I play a single player game instead.
My first MMO was Meridian 59 in 96. I don't really think that the quests are much better masked now, I killed 10 rats then and I still kill 10 rats now. There is more flavor text but it is at best poorly written and I rarely bother to read it anymore.
I would say that games are slightly dumbed down today. Now a 8 year old kid can play most of the game easily, the same kid would have gotten nowhere in M59.
It isn't all bad, I don't miss standing hours waiting for a spawn but the quest have gone nowhere in 15 years, they are exactly the same as always, phasing, instancing or whatever.
The thing is that old MMOs did some things better, newer MMOs do other stuff better while they both still suck at stuff they should have fixes ages ago, like vendortrash and rat killing quests.
The perfect game will have some old stuff, some modern stuff and some new stuff. Take a third from each and you would have a great game (well the best parts of course).
Well if done properly most instances don't interfere with the feel of an open world anyway. There are mmo's that balance an open world with a few instances pretty well. That being said, instancing is currenty the only efficient way to design quests that aren't just "rat killing quests". So if you don't want those rat killing quest's to be in new MMO's then you have to have instances, there is no in between. And this balance is far from being a "single-player" game.
Imo this is why so many veteran mmo players are pist off with todays mmorpg's, because they want something that simply doesn't exist yet. mmorpg's are evolving so hopefully they'll reach that point but until then balancing an open world and some instances is the closet a game can get to being innovative.
I would agree with the 8 year old being able to progress alot further in modern mmo's though. But I think this is mostly a business decsision. People want to be entertained when they play a game, not stress and pull their hair out because they can't figure something out.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
No, MMORPGs are becoming FUN, as opposed to endless grindfests where the only distraction is meeting people engaged in the same mindless drudgery.
Sure there might have been those times where 100 people brought down a world boss, or something similar, but those moments were far and few between the endless hours and days and weeks of grinding mobs and camping respawns and travelling.
Now, you get past that and go straight to the action and story.
No, MMORPGs are becoming FUN, as opposed to endless grindfests where the only distraction is meeting people engaged in the same mindless drudgery.
Sure there might have been those times where 100 people brought down a world boss, or something similar, but those moments were far and few between the endless hours and days and weeks of grinding mobs and camping respawns and travelling.
Now, you get past that and go straight to the action and story.
I take it you're the type of kid that loves Michael Bay movieswith big budget explosions and little else? Yes, they've gotten casual. Fun is a subjective word, but its clear they're aiming at the LOWEST base common demoninator, not trying anything new, and hardly putting any features in their games.
To some of us, fun isn't running through a boring hallway wrapped in bubblewrap (lest we hurt ourselves!) doing "quests" (chores) and following the yellow brick road, while ignoring all the other players.
Since when were mmorpg's not grinding and easy? The first mmorpg's were txt based quests that required the player to go kill enemy A and retrieve item A to give to player B for item B etc. Imo mmorpg's have ALWAYS been a "dumbed down" gameplay experience, yea come at me MMO veterans.
So newer MMORPG's are more instanced these days, thats a huge upgrade to me. It's much more entertaining to be able to see how you've effected the world around you because of the actions you've done, as opposed to reading a paragraph telling you that you've changed event A even though event A remains the same as before. At least todays mmo's do a better job of masking the fact that your essentially doing the exact same thing with every quest you do. MMORPG's are evolving but their not being "dumbed down" imo their just growing to provide more entertainment. Isn't that the point of an mmo anyway =]?
MUDs weren't really MMOs, they are just like P&P RPGs the roots of MMOs but not the same thing.
The thing about instancing makes me just wonder one thing: Why bother to play massive multiplayer like that? If I want to change the entire game by myself I play a single player game instead.
My first MMO was Meridian 59 in 96. I don't really think that the quests are much better masked now, I killed 10 rats then and I still kill 10 rats now. There is more flavor text but it is at best poorly written and I rarely bother to read it anymore.
I would say that games are slightly dumbed down today. Now a 8 year old kid can play most of the game easily, the same kid would have gotten nowhere in M59.
It isn't all bad, I don't miss standing hours waiting for a spawn but the quest have gone nowhere in 15 years, they are exactly the same as always, phasing, instancing or whatever.
The thing is that old MMOs did some things better, newer MMOs do other stuff better while they both still suck at stuff they should have fixes ages ago, like vendortrash and rat killing quests.
The perfect game will have some old stuff, some modern stuff and some new stuff. Take a third from each and you would have a great game (well the best parts of course).
Well if done properly most instances don't interfere with the feel of an open world anyway. There are mmo's that balance an open world with a few instances pretty well. That being said, instancing is currenty the only efficient way to design quests that aren't just "rat killing quests". So if you don't want those rat killing quest's to be in new MMO's then you have to have instances, there is no in between.
Imo this is why so many veteran mmo players are pist off with todays mmorpg's, because they want something that simply doesn't exist yet. mmorpg's are evolving so hopefully they'll reach that point but until then balancing an open world and some instances is the closet a game can get to being innovative.
Not true. Instancing is the EASIEST way to do things. Yes instances, in almost every one of their forms, break the open world feel. WoW and LotRO being especially guilty.
Devs from 2001 managed to find a way to make a perfectly balanced MMO with incredible bosses and quests without using instances. It just takes good game design, which most devs don't have.
No, MMORPGs are becoming FUN, as opposed to endless grindfests where the only distraction is meeting people engaged in the same mindless drudgery.
Sure there might have been those times where 100 people brought down a world boss, or something similar, but those moments were far and few between the endless hours and days and weeks of grinding mobs and camping respawns and travelling.
Now, you get past that and go straight to the action and story.
I take it you're the type of kid that loves Michael Bay movieswith big budget explosions and little else? Yes, they've gotten casual. Fun is a subjective word, but its clear they're aiming at the LOWEST base common demoninator, not trying anything new, and hardly putting any features in their games.
To some of us, fun isn't running through a boring hallway wrapped in bubblewrap (lest we hurt ourselves!) doing "quests" (chores) and following the yellow brick road, while ignoring all the other players.
I take you're the kind of old nerd who sits around in his boxers all day collecting unemployment, refusing to find a job because his l33t skillz are needed in some 10+ year old grindfest.
Since when were mmorpg's not grinding and easy? The first mmorpg's were txt based quests that required the player to go kill enemy A and retrieve item A to give to player B for item B etc. Imo mmorpg's have ALWAYS been a "dumbed down" gameplay experience, yea come at me MMO veterans.
So newer MMORPG's are more instanced these days, thats a huge upgrade to me. It's much more entertaining to be able to see how you've effected the world around you because of the actions you've done, as opposed to reading a paragraph telling you that you've changed event A even though event A remains the same as before. At least todays mmo's do a better job of masking the fact that your essentially doing the exact same thing with every quest you do. MMORPG's are evolving but their not being "dumbed down" imo their just growing to provide more entertainment. Isn't that the point of an mmo anyway =]?
MUDs weren't really MMOs, they are just like P&P RPGs the roots of MMOs but not the same thing.
The thing about instancing makes me just wonder one thing: Why bother to play massive multiplayer like that? If I want to change the entire game by myself I play a single player game instead.
My first MMO was Meridian 59 in 96. I don't really think that the quests are much better masked now, I killed 10 rats then and I still kill 10 rats now. There is more flavor text but it is at best poorly written and I rarely bother to read it anymore.
I would say that games are slightly dumbed down today. Now a 8 year old kid can play most of the game easily, the same kid would have gotten nowhere in M59.
It isn't all bad, I don't miss standing hours waiting for a spawn but the quest have gone nowhere in 15 years, they are exactly the same as always, phasing, instancing or whatever.
The thing is that old MMOs did some things better, newer MMOs do other stuff better while they both still suck at stuff they should have fixes ages ago, like vendortrash and rat killing quests.
The perfect game will have some old stuff, some modern stuff and some new stuff. Take a third from each and you would have a great game (well the best parts of course).
Well if done properly most instances don't interfere with the feel of an open world anyway. There are mmo's that balance an open world with a few instances pretty well. That being said, instancing is currenty the only efficient way to design quests that aren't just "rat killing quests". So if you don't want those rat killing quest's to be in new MMO's then you have to have instances, there is no in between.
Imo this is why so many veteran mmo players are pist off with todays mmorpg's, because they want something that simply doesn't exist yet. mmorpg's are evolving so hopefully they'll reach that point but until then balancing an open world and some instances is the closet a game can get to being innovative.
Not true. Instancing is the EASIEST way to do things. Yes instances, in almost every one of their forms, break the open world feel. WoW and LotRO being especially guilty.
Devs from 2001 managed to find a way to make a perfectly balanced MMO with incredible bosses and quests without using instances. It just takes good game design, which most devs don't have.
Your still talking about quests that require the same thing. KILL A to receive item B. So they made the thing you have to kill bigger, big deal. My point is that instancing provides the ability to creat IN-DEPTH quests and give the player a visual perspective of how he/she has effected the world around them. Instancing is the only way instanced events can happen. Go figure =P.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Since when were mmorpg's not grinding and easy? The first mmorpg's were txt based quests that required the player to go kill enemy A and retrieve item A to give to player B for item B etc. Imo mmorpg's have ALWAYS been a "dumbed down" gameplay experience, yea come at me MMO veterans.
So newer MMORPG's are more instanced these days, thats a huge upgrade to me. It's much more entertaining to be able to see how you've effected the world around you because of the actions you've done, as opposed to reading a paragraph telling you that you've changed event A even though event A remains the same as before. At least todays mmo's do a better job of masking the fact that your essentially doing the exact same thing with every quest you do. MMORPG's are evolving but their not being "dumbed down" imo their just growing to provide more entertainment. Isn't that the point of an mmo anyway =]?
MUDs weren't really MMOs, they are just like P&P RPGs the roots of MMOs but not the same thing.
The thing about instancing makes me just wonder one thing: Why bother to play massive multiplayer like that? If I want to change the entire game by myself I play a single player game instead.
My first MMO was Meridian 59 in 96. I don't really think that the quests are much better masked now, I killed 10 rats then and I still kill 10 rats now. There is more flavor text but it is at best poorly written and I rarely bother to read it anymore.
I would say that games are slightly dumbed down today. Now a 8 year old kid can play most of the game easily, the same kid would have gotten nowhere in M59.
It isn't all bad, I don't miss standing hours waiting for a spawn but the quest have gone nowhere in 15 years, they are exactly the same as always, phasing, instancing or whatever.
The thing is that old MMOs did some things better, newer MMOs do other stuff better while they both still suck at stuff they should have fixes ages ago, like vendortrash and rat killing quests.
The perfect game will have some old stuff, some modern stuff and some new stuff. Take a third from each and you would have a great game (well the best parts of course).
Well if done properly most instances don't interfere with the feel of an open world anyway. There are mmo's that balance an open world with a few instances pretty well. That being said, instancing is currenty the only efficient way to design quests that aren't just "rat killing quests". So if you don't want those rat killing quest's to be in new MMO's then you have to have instances, there is no in between.
Imo this is why so many veteran mmo players are pist off with todays mmorpg's, because they want something that simply doesn't exist yet. mmorpg's are evolving so hopefully they'll reach that point but until then balancing an open world and some instances is the closet a game can get to being innovative.
Not true. Instancing is the EASIEST way to do things. Yes instances, in almost every one of their forms, break the open world feel. WoW and LotRO being especially guilty.
Devs from 2001 managed to find a way to make a perfectly balanced MMO with incredible bosses and quests without using instances. It just takes good game design, which most devs don't have.
Your still talking about quests that require the same thing. KILL A to receive item B. So they made the thing you have to kill bigger, big deal. My point is that instancing provides the ability to creat IN-DEPTH quests and give the player a visual perspective of how he/she has effected the world around them. Instancing is the only way instanced events can happen. Go figure =P.
Er, well 3 arguments.
If you're in a game to "change the world" you'd be better served playing a single player game.
Second, in an instance, you're not actually changing the world or doing anything different that you couldn't do in normal world.
And third, the only time game worlds in MMOs have changed are with noninstanced dev created events, like darkfall's dynamic lore, or the invasions in AC or UO. So no, instances don't offer anything but a band aid for lazy devs.
No, MMORPGs are becoming FUN, as opposed to endless grindfests where the only distraction is meeting people engaged in the same mindless drudgery.
Sure there might have been those times where 100 people brought down a world boss, or something similar, but those moments were far and few between the endless hours and days and weeks of grinding mobs and camping respawns and travelling.
Now, you get past that and go straight to the action and story.
I take it you're the type of kid that loves Michael Bay movieswith big budget explosions and little else? Yes, they've gotten casual. Fun is a subjective word, but its clear they're aiming at the LOWEST base common demoninator, not trying anything new, and hardly putting any features in their games.
To some of us, fun isn't running through a boring hallway wrapped in bubblewrap (lest we hurt ourselves!) doing "quests" (chores) and following the yellow brick road, while ignoring all the other players.
I take you're the kind of old nerd who sits around in his boxers all day collecting unemployment, refusing to find a job because his l33t skillz are needed in some 10+ year old grindfest.
I wouldn't consider myself old, no, just fortunate enough to be introduced to MMOs before they went to hell when WoW came out. I remember what MMORPGs are about. And no, I don't remember much grinding in any of the MMOs I played, nice try buddy. I've played new MMOs and old MMOs. Old MMOs were made better and were more fun. You can't say you've done the same.
I wouldn't consider myself old, no, just fortunate enough to be introduced to MMOs before they went to hell when WoW came out. I remember what MMORPGs are about. And no, I don't remember much grinding in any of the MMOs I played, nice try buddy. I've played new MMOs and old MMOs. Old MMOs were made better and were more fun. You can't say you've done the same.
No, you have a particular view of what you WANT MMO's to be about, not what they actually are. You've got no right to declare that your views accurately represent reality, especially when they demonstrably don't. You're welcome to your opinions, of course, but MMO's aren't "about" anything, certainly not collectively or generically.
I wouldn't consider myself old, no, just fortunate enough to be introduced to MMOs before they went to hell when WoW came out. I remember what MMORPGs are about. And no, I don't remember much grinding in any of the MMOs I played, nice try buddy. I've played new MMOs and old MMOs. Old MMOs were made better and were more fun. You can't say you've done the same.
No, you have a particular view of what you WANT MMO's to be about, not what they actually are. You've got no right to declare that your views accurately represent reality, especially when they demonstrably don't. You're welcome to your opinions, of course, but MMO's aren't "about" anything, certainly not collectively or generically.
Actually, I feel I can say with quite some authority what the spirit and intent of original MMORPGs were, and what the core of the genre aimed to be before the Casual Invasion and the WoW induced Dark Ages.
MMOs were initially pationate games made by nerds trying to bring D&D to computers. Bringing to life virtual WORLDS with deep RPG mechanics and a heavy HEAVY social element. That is all but gone now. So when I hear someone say MMO, I think core, true MMOs. Not these Diablo games with monthly fees.
Since when were mmorpg's not grinding and easy? The first mmorpg's were txt based quests that required the player to go kill enemy A and retrieve item A to give to player B for item B etc. Imo mmorpg's have ALWAYS been a "dumbed down" gameplay experience, yea come at me MMO veterans.
So newer MMORPG's are more instanced these days, thats a huge upgrade to me. It's much more entertaining to be able to see how you've effected the world around you because of the actions you've done, as opposed to reading a paragraph telling you that you've changed event A even though event A remains the same as before. At least todays mmo's do a better job of masking the fact that your essentially doing the exact same thing with every quest you do. MMORPG's are evolving but their not being "dumbed down" imo their just growing to provide more entertainment. Isn't that the point of an mmo anyway =]?
MUDs weren't really MMOs, they are just like P&P RPGs the roots of MMOs but not the same thing.
The thing about instancing makes me just wonder one thing: Why bother to play massive multiplayer like that? If I want to change the entire game by myself I play a single player game instead.
My first MMO was Meridian 59 in 96. I don't really think that the quests are much better masked now, I killed 10 rats then and I still kill 10 rats now. There is more flavor text but it is at best poorly written and I rarely bother to read it anymore.
I would say that games are slightly dumbed down today. Now a 8 year old kid can play most of the game easily, the same kid would have gotten nowhere in M59.
It isn't all bad, I don't miss standing hours waiting for a spawn but the quest have gone nowhere in 15 years, they are exactly the same as always, phasing, instancing or whatever.
The thing is that old MMOs did some things better, newer MMOs do other stuff better while they both still suck at stuff they should have fixes ages ago, like vendortrash and rat killing quests.
The perfect game will have some old stuff, some modern stuff and some new stuff. Take a third from each and you would have a great game (well the best parts of course).
Well if done properly most instances don't interfere with the feel of an open world anyway. There are mmo's that balance an open world with a few instances pretty well. That being said, instancing is currenty the only efficient way to design quests that aren't just "rat killing quests". So if you don't want those rat killing quest's to be in new MMO's then you have to have instances, there is no in between.
Imo this is why so many veteran mmo players are pist off with todays mmorpg's, because they want something that simply doesn't exist yet. mmorpg's are evolving so hopefully they'll reach that point but until then balancing an open world and some instances is the closet a game can get to being innovative.
Not true. Instancing is the EASIEST way to do things. Yes instances, in almost every one of their forms, break the open world feel. WoW and LotRO being especially guilty.
Devs from 2001 managed to find a way to make a perfectly balanced MMO with incredible bosses and quests without using instances. It just takes good game design, which most devs don't have.
Your still talking about quests that require the same thing. KILL A to receive item B. So they made the thing you have to kill bigger, big deal. My point is that instancing provides the ability to creat IN-DEPTH quests and give the player a visual perspective of how he/she has effected the world around them. Instancing is the only way instanced events can happen. Go figure =P.
Er, well 3 arguments.
If you're in a game to "change the world" you'd be better served playing a single player game.
Second, in an instance, you're not actually changing the world or doing anything different that you couldn't do in normal world.
And third, the only time game worlds in MMOs have changed are with noninstanced dev created events, like darkfall's dynamic lore, or the invasions in AC or UO. So no, instances don't offer anything but a band aid for lazy devs.
MMORPG's are evolving. I'm not just talking about simple instances i'm talking about Instanced events which allow the dev's to expand on idea's and create gameplay beyond killing rat's. I don't see instances as being a band-aid, I see them as getting closer to the innovation that most MMO gamers demand. Grinding monsters for a quest with different stories behind why your grinding gets old. Imo lazy dev's are the one's who create mmo's without instances. There's absolutely no innovation in that. Place NPC's that have you go and kill these NPC's. Maybe these dev's could use a "band-aid".
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Since when were mmorpg's not grinding and easy? The first mmorpg's were txt based quests that required the player to go kill enemy A and retrieve item A to give to player B for item B etc. Imo mmorpg's have ALWAYS been a "dumbed down" gameplay experience, yea come at me MMO veterans.
So newer MMORPG's are more instanced these days, thats a huge upgrade to me. It's much more entertaining to be able to see how you've effected the world around you because of the actions you've done, as opposed to reading a paragraph telling you that you've changed event A even though event A remains the same as before. At least todays mmo's do a better job of masking the fact that your essentially doing the exact same thing with every quest you do. MMORPG's are evolving but their not being "dumbed down" imo their just growing to provide more entertainment. Isn't that the point of an mmo anyway =]?
MUDs weren't really MMOs, they are just like P&P RPGs the roots of MMOs but not the same thing.
The thing about instancing makes me just wonder one thing: Why bother to play massive multiplayer like that? If I want to change the entire game by myself I play a single player game instead.
My first MMO was Meridian 59 in 96. I don't really think that the quests are much better masked now, I killed 10 rats then and I still kill 10 rats now. There is more flavor text but it is at best poorly written and I rarely bother to read it anymore.
I would say that games are slightly dumbed down today. Now a 8 year old kid can play most of the game easily, the same kid would have gotten nowhere in M59.
It isn't all bad, I don't miss standing hours waiting for a spawn but the quest have gone nowhere in 15 years, they are exactly the same as always, phasing, instancing or whatever.
The thing is that old MMOs did some things better, newer MMOs do other stuff better while they both still suck at stuff they should have fixes ages ago, like vendortrash and rat killing quests.
The perfect game will have some old stuff, some modern stuff and some new stuff. Take a third from each and you would have a great game (well the best parts of course).
Well if done properly most instances don't interfere with the feel of an open world anyway. There are mmo's that balance an open world with a few instances pretty well. That being said, instancing is currenty the only efficient way to design quests that aren't just "rat killing quests". So if you don't want those rat killing quest's to be in new MMO's then you have to have instances, there is no in between.
Imo this is why so many veteran mmo players are pist off with todays mmorpg's, because they want something that simply doesn't exist yet. mmorpg's are evolving so hopefully they'll reach that point but until then balancing an open world and some instances is the closet a game can get to being innovative.
Not true. Instancing is the EASIEST way to do things. Yes instances, in almost every one of their forms, break the open world feel. WoW and LotRO being especially guilty.
Devs from 2001 managed to find a way to make a perfectly balanced MMO with incredible bosses and quests without using instances. It just takes good game design, which most devs don't have.
Your still talking about quests that require the same thing. KILL A to receive item B. So they made the thing you have to kill bigger, big deal. My point is that instancing provides the ability to creat IN-DEPTH quests and give the player a visual perspective of how he/she has effected the world around them. Instancing is the only way instanced events can happen. Go figure =P.
Er, well 3 arguments.
If you're in a game to "change the world" you'd be better served playing a single player game.
Second, in an instance, you're not actually changing the world or doing anything different that you couldn't do in normal world.
And third, the only time game worlds in MMOs have changed are with noninstanced dev created events, like darkfall's dynamic lore, or the invasions in AC or UO. So no, instances don't offer anything but a band aid for lazy devs.
MMORPG's are evolving. Instanced events allow the dev's to expand on idea's and create gameplay beyond killing rat's. I don't see instances as being a band-aid, I see them as getting closer to the innovation that most MMO gamers demand. Grinding monsters for a quest with different stories behind why your grinding gets old. Imo lazy dev's are the one's who create mmo's without instances. There's absolutely no innovation in that. Place NPC's that have you go and kill these NPC's. Maybe these dev's could use a "band-aid".
I guess you don't understand games without instances then. Instances are band aids to fix games that are based around one solitary idea of "get loot". EQ needed instances to function, so did WoW. DAoC, a well designed game, did not. Now what is this tosh about you saying instances allow devs to expand on stuff? Again I ask, what can you do in an instance you can't do in the open world?
Comments
My main point being , that for a period of the last three or four years , I believe Dev's have been attempting to get MMO's into the console market. Have they been successful, for the most part, no. The key reason Micro$oft and $ony have decided either the pie is too small to allow anyone to have a bite of , or they just can't be bothered for the most part to deal with it. FF11 was probably a test case to see what the issues would be for M$, they decided it wasn't worth pursuing.
It's my opinion that Consoles have been for the most part responsible for the stagnation in the industry, to a large degree. Especially the four to five years. That's beginning to change , not that I'm a fan , but EA is actually leading the way. You have to respect the innovative initative they've taken. Firstly with the Frostbite 2 engine, and SW:ToR. Whether these are successful is to be determined. Frostbite 2 used in BF:BC 2 shows great promise and therefore may launch BF 3 to dizzying heights, especially on PC, which is hungry for 64 player maps. SW:ToR has some innovations , it really comes down to how interesting they make the game. You have wildly popular IP, this make so much harder to please a large audience , it's quite a gamble. If they are successful , it'll be for the better in the long run, for both PC's and consoles. It will put to rest the idea that :
1 ) PC's are done as a gaming platform
2 ) That consoles are the main development template to be used when designing games.
Now if they could only get a serious handle and make a serious effort on piracy and hacking , but that's a different topic.
I don't think that they are at all, I think MMOs are improving all the time. The only people who complain are those who want to escape from reality into a game world. The point of a game is entertainment, not an escapist fantasy. There just aren't enough of the escapist types out there to make any modern MMO financially viable, thus nobody makes games dedicated to them. That is as it should be, genres evolve over time and as things change, older systems die out from disuse. The MMO market largely killed the PnP market, simply because you didn't have to find other people, wait for them to come over to your house, sit around a table and play. You could jump online any time and play at a moment's notice. Today, you have people who may have grown up on consoles who are the primary player (and payer) for MMOs, of course companies are going to cater to them, that's where their money comes from! There just aren't enough old-school players who still want the fruatrating, obnoxious gameplay that they grew up with, they aren't a viable market for modern games.
In the end, you have to understand and cater to your market to be successful and games like WoW are doing just that. That's why they're growing all the time. People need to get over the fact that old-school is largely dead, except in a few niche games, and isn't ever coming back. Either modify your views, go find something else to do, or live with the remants of your old system, just like the few PnP gamers have done. They still get together and play a game now and then, but there just aren't gaming stores out there like there were, most game companies have gone bankrupt or are down to releasing a few PDFs a year for people to pay for and download. That industry is dead, just like old-school MMOs are dead. Good riddance to all of them.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
MMORPGs just... It's odd for me.
In Magic: The Gathering, I have 7 options before me and I can use them freely to dictate my actions, I can do awesome plays or brutal mistakes from the beginning of the game. (Granted games only last for 30-40 minutes if you count those 2 rounds and it's a completely different game! :P) That's why I love it. It's not like an MMORPG where I stand around killing mobs doing generally uninteresting things and talking to friends to prevent the boredom from forcing me to log off. I should be challenged, I should have to think! I did like a certain game "Elsword" though. I played a bit of Grand Chase, and it seriously made me cringe. I guess KOG' decided to learn from their mistakes. CBT just felt like a generic beat 'em up though. Hopefully they raise difficulty and increase the odds of super pimped out mobs, I enjoyed those.
Wow, what a shitty rant.
Summary - Why do MMORPGs force you to do things you don't want to do for the first couple of levels and force uninteresting skills upon you? They should make the mobs MUCH harder, but in return give you more tools so you can think about your moves and such...
- Anigous
**Holy shit this looks like a thread...
"i have a lvl 26 maplestory warrior lvl 9 asda story archer and a adventure quest mage lvl 15 and my xfire is my bro's"
Edgar F Greenwood
Good point. I think the D&D comparisons are very apt. I was one part of the omega-bookkeeper camp that insisted upon inventories (and weights) being detailed down to the last ration and nonmagical arrow. It took me a while to get used to the idea that you can handwave those details away due to how little they add to the game. People should not shout down each and every simplification on the grounds that simpler = dumber = worse.
Let's see where to start , Champions Online , Global Agenda , Star Trek Online , those are just a few I tested and they were designed for controller use and to go to Console. I'm sure if I start to research a bit more I could probably dig up a few more . These started Dev three to four years ago , so you see where the intent was. That's just FYI.
Well, yes. weighing every small thing your character carries in a RPG is not fun and not worth the bother.
I been playing a lot, but we only keep track of it we we need to. Say that you kill a dragon and find a mountain of gold, there it actually matters. Or if some munchkin player actually carries around everything he can find and might possibly have the slightest use of.
You don't need to put weight on food, arrows or similar small stuff. You do however need to keep your eye on armor and weapons, that stuff actually weights somewhat.
The same goes for most things in MMOs. You don't have to add mechanics for every small thing. But things can get too simple and unreaistic and people will abuse it.
Take big inventories. Not realistic, but does it matter? The thing however is that the reason that you need thos inventories is because every mob drops some useless vendortrash that you need to carry around for no real purpose. It adds nothing to the fun in the game. It offers very little timesink for the devs (you need to vendortrash once in a while). No one ever gets happy when some vendortrash drops.
So why the hell is it there? It is unreastic and boring at the same time. Cut it out and you can give the players a lot less inventory space without being annoying.
MMOs have many weird stuff like that, that both complicates things and make the game less realistic without actually making the game more fun to play. And all devs adds them anyways because all other games have them.
MMOs actually could use some "smarting down" instead. Someone should think through all features and consider if they are fun, add realism and immersion or just is a dumb idea and should be removed.
The real dumbing down of MMOs is that they made 90% of the game so easy a 8 year old kid can master it, not that they added a broker or auction house (even though I prefer player owned stores).
Edgar F Greenwood
Since when were mmorpg's not grinding and easy? The first mmorpg's were txt based quests that required the player to go kill enemy A and retrieve item A to give to player B for item B etc. Imo mmorpg's have ALWAYS been a "dumbed down" gameplay experience, yea come at me MMO veterans.
So newer MMORPG's are more instanced these days, thats a huge upgrade to me. It's much more entertaining to be able to see how you've effected the world around you because of the actions you've done, as opposed to reading a paragraph telling you that you've changed event A even though event A remains the same as before. At least todays mmo's do a better job of masking the fact that your essentially doing the exact same thing with every quest you do. MMORPG's are evolving but their not being "dumbed down" imo their just growing to provide more entertainment. Isn't that the point of an mmo anyway =]?
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
MUDs weren't really MMOs, they are just like P&P RPGs the roots of MMOs but not the same thing.
The thing about instancing makes me just wonder one thing: Why bother to play massive multiplayer like that? If I want to change the entire game by myself I play a single player game instead.
My first MMO was Meridian 59 in 96. I don't really think that the quests are much better masked now, I killed 10 rats then and I still kill 10 rats now. There is more flavor text but it is at best poorly written and I rarely bother to read it anymore.
I would say that games are slightly dumbed down today. Now a 8 year old kid can play most of the game easily, the same kid would have gotten nowhere in M59.
It isn't all bad, I don't miss standing hours waiting for a spawn but the quest have gone nowhere in 15 years, they are exactly the same as always, phasing, instancing or whatever.
The thing is that old MMOs did some things better, newer MMOs do other stuff better while they both still suck at stuff they should have fixes ages ago, like vendortrash and rat killing quests.
The perfect game will have some old stuff, some modern stuff and some new stuff. Take a third from each and you would have a great game (well the best parts of course).
Actually it does dumb down the UI that's usable on a console run controller and basically limit what it's capable of, in turn simplify ing the game. That's not to say that you couldn't use a keyboard and mouse on a console , it's just that most console players don't play in that manner. Personnally I'm a huge fan of PC's , and no-one is is comparing the level of difficulty.
As for those games not getting on PS 3 or xBox , that was already covered to a degree. I was just pointing out that these games were specifically designed to be on consoles. I think a lot of the weaknesses are evident once you play them . It's not that they are bad games , they are just poor MMO's. I agree the audience have a certain expectation because of it. Think about how many people now play PC games with a console controller as part of their rigs ? There are advantages , but I see them more as disadvantages as far as MMO's go. I'm not advocating a purist approach , just pointing out things people are unaware of. You stated you didn't think companies would use a console dev kit , and I gave you three games that they did, as case in poiint.
the next big game really needs to bring some difficulty back to MMORPGs. These games should REQUIRE you to farm hundreds of hours on end for an item used in an epic quest, very similar to EQ. Every game now when you hit max level all there is to do is Honor Farm or something similar
Outside of graphics MMO's are exactly the same as they have always been. Boring storylines, repetitive game play, and crappy end games.
When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?
Well if done properly most instances don't interfere with the feel of an open world anyway. There are mmo's that balance an open world with a few instances pretty well. That being said, instancing is currenty the only efficient way to design quests that aren't just "rat killing quests". So if you don't want those rat killing quest's to be in new MMO's then you have to have instances, there is no in between. And this balance is far from being a "single-player" game.
Imo this is why so many veteran mmo players are pist off with todays mmorpg's, because they want something that simply doesn't exist yet. mmorpg's are evolving so hopefully they'll reach that point but until then balancing an open world and some instances is the closet a game can get to being innovative.
I would agree with the 8 year old being able to progress alot further in modern mmo's though. But I think this is mostly a business decsision. People want to be entertained when they play a game, not stress and pull their hair out because they can't figure something out.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
No, MMORPGs are becoming FUN, as opposed to endless grindfests where the only distraction is meeting people engaged in the same mindless drudgery.
Sure there might have been those times where 100 people brought down a world boss, or something similar, but those moments were far and few between the endless hours and days and weeks of grinding mobs and camping respawns and travelling.
Now, you get past that and go straight to the action and story.
I take it you're the type of kid that loves Michael Bay movieswith big budget explosions and little else? Yes, they've gotten casual. Fun is a subjective word, but its clear they're aiming at the LOWEST base common demoninator, not trying anything new, and hardly putting any features in their games.
To some of us, fun isn't running through a boring hallway wrapped in bubblewrap (lest we hurt ourselves!) doing "quests" (chores) and following the yellow brick road, while ignoring all the other players.
Not true. Instancing is the EASIEST way to do things. Yes instances, in almost every one of their forms, break the open world feel. WoW and LotRO being especially guilty.
Devs from 2001 managed to find a way to make a perfectly balanced MMO with incredible bosses and quests without using instances. It just takes good game design, which most devs don't have.
I take you're the kind of old nerd who sits around in his boxers all day collecting unemployment, refusing to find a job because his l33t skillz are needed in some 10+ year old grindfest.
Your still talking about quests that require the same thing. KILL A to receive item B. So they made the thing you have to kill bigger, big deal. My point is that instancing provides the ability to creat IN-DEPTH quests and give the player a visual perspective of how he/she has effected the world around them. Instancing is the only way instanced events can happen. Go figure =P.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Er, well 3 arguments.
If you're in a game to "change the world" you'd be better served playing a single player game.
Second, in an instance, you're not actually changing the world or doing anything different that you couldn't do in normal world.
And third, the only time game worlds in MMOs have changed are with noninstanced dev created events, like darkfall's dynamic lore, or the invasions in AC or UO. So no, instances don't offer anything but a band aid for lazy devs.
I wouldn't consider myself old, no, just fortunate enough to be introduced to MMOs before they went to hell when WoW came out. I remember what MMORPGs are about. And no, I don't remember much grinding in any of the MMOs I played, nice try buddy. I've played new MMOs and old MMOs. Old MMOs were made better and were more fun. You can't say you've done the same.
No, you have a particular view of what you WANT MMO's to be about, not what they actually are. You've got no right to declare that your views accurately represent reality, especially when they demonstrably don't. You're welcome to your opinions, of course, but MMO's aren't "about" anything, certainly not collectively or generically.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Actually, I feel I can say with quite some authority what the spirit and intent of original MMORPGs were, and what the core of the genre aimed to be before the Casual Invasion and the WoW induced Dark Ages.
MMOs were initially pationate games made by nerds trying to bring D&D to computers. Bringing to life virtual WORLDS with deep RPG mechanics and a heavy HEAVY social element. That is all but gone now. So when I hear someone say MMO, I think core, true MMOs. Not these Diablo games with monthly fees.
MMORPG's are evolving. I'm not just talking about simple instances i'm talking about Instanced events which allow the dev's to expand on idea's and create gameplay beyond killing rat's. I don't see instances as being a band-aid, I see them as getting closer to the innovation that most MMO gamers demand. Grinding monsters for a quest with different stories behind why your grinding gets old. Imo lazy dev's are the one's who create mmo's without instances. There's absolutely no innovation in that. Place NPC's that have you go and kill these NPC's. Maybe these dev's could use a "band-aid".
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
I guess you don't understand games without instances then. Instances are band aids to fix games that are based around one solitary idea of "get loot". EQ needed instances to function, so did WoW. DAoC, a well designed game, did not. Now what is this tosh about you saying instances allow devs to expand on stuff? Again I ask, what can you do in an instance you can't do in the open world?