I wrote a paper on the McDonaldization of society for a project a few years ago. The theory is that people have gotten used to the concept that big corporations are their servants, and that instant gratification will be provided to anyone who can pay the fee. It has spread to virtually every industry, but it started with fast food. Drive up to the sign, order "feel good food" (salt grease sugar), drive to the first window and hand a small amount of money, drive to the second window, receive fresh, hot, fast, delicious food handed directly to you in the comfort of your auto.
This is exactly the same pattern as is happening in MMORPGs. Fast, cheap, easy, and most of all instant gratification because I deserve it.
And we wonder why people turn into fanboys. It is normal to enthrone to deity status an entity that makes us feel good about ourselves. I mean this in a very religious perspective... WoW is God to these people. "In WoW we trust."
In mmo's though, people playing can provide all that to other people playing as part of the game. The reason we cant is because they took that ability away.
true enough, give players tools to do so and they make a fun game, usually far more in depth and creative than a dev team can manage, take Eve.. proof that you don't need a script to be successful.
The developers are even removing the players choice of how they want their character to be "spec'd". In the OMG, WoW, you're forced to put 31 pts into 1 spec before you can go into any others. In Rift, they don't allow you to put all your points into 1 tree.
The instant gratification is the cause, I agree. I remember when an uncommon(blue) item would drop in a raid and you'd be excited to get it. Now all the players expect to see the holy epic or they're not getting what they pay for in the game.
Someone else noted Hunters in WoW and their pets happiness being removed so players didn't have to manage their happiness, long before that, Hunters had to tame pets to get their abilities. Back when it was actually fun to play because you knew YOUR pet had the best ability. Furious Howl(Rank 6) LBRS the only place you could tame the wolf with that ability/rank. Now players are told, the best pet/spec/build/blah blah blah and then you get purpz.
I'll go to anything, even back to reading more, than paying monthly fees for the dumbed down MMOs of now.
The first wave of MMORPG players were folks that were either computer game players and/or PnP role playing game players. In many instances there were both. The current generation has cut their teeth on console games in general and FPS for the majority.
The result is that MMORPGS have grown to more resemble console games in areas such as tempo. We have also gotten far away from the original RPG experience where the concept was to play a character.. with the character's skills etc. Today you hear buzzwords like "player skill" and "bunnyhopping". So I don't know that I would use the term "dumbed down", but every generation seems to move closer and closer to the current console games and now they even are DESIGNED for them (DCUO).
My preference is something more along the lines of the original waves of MMOs.. UO, EQ, AC, DAoC. Games that require actual interaction with the world beyond what a simple "rumblepad" can provide.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
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Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
When I first started playing online games, (mud, mush, moo, etc...) the trend was towards complexity, greater detail, greater fidelity to the environment/world being created and greater freedom for the player to create and play their character. Currently that trend feels like its being stopped or reversed in some cases. So if you want to refer to that as being 'dumbed down' then, yes.
Is grinding (for levels or gear, i.e. raids) becoming a more streamlined process? Or is content getting too easy?
Who remembers when a raid was actualy invading a city and not some mindless dungon run?
grinding is becoming much more user friendly and the brain powere required is decreasing as a result. The lack of inovative design is partialy to blame. The player base being more familar with mechanics is the other.
If game content is being made too easy, do guilds suffer? Not if there is a decent leadership team
And is there any point to interacting in such a way anymore? Is team play dead? It depends on the game.
Does “dumbing down” remove a players motivation to play games? For me it does. ther hae been a few games that were wonderfully complex and they dumbed it down because they listened to the vocal minority with out proper market testing.
Or does easy and entertaining make for longer play time? I like the idea of needing a PhD to figure out games.
Reputation and Renown? Did they ever exist in a MMO world, and do they still? yes and yes
Are interactions online of any actual importance? Or have any resemblance to that of real life interaction?That is up to the individual. I prefer not to hang out with folks that are rageing epeeners. This apples to the world in and out of the game.
Is “dumbing down” turning the whole MMO community into item ninjas, cheats, and abusive idiots? Or has the community stayed the same? Or always been…well…idiots?
Cheeters will aleays be present. Gold buyers will allways be present. The difference is that mmos are a main stream thing. Globalization is also a consideration. As for the ninjas and idiots I usually ignore them. I have noticed that my ignore lists get larger and larger with every new game.
The Happiness/Pet Loyalty System has been removed. Hunters will no longer have to manage Happiness for their pets, and the previous damage bonus for pets being happy will now be baseline for all tamed pets.
Insta-happy pets at full level. Part of playing a hunter in WoW used to be pet management.
To me this is an example of dumbing down.
That's an excellent example of dumbing down, actually.
Now extrapolate that across an entire game, and have such things occur on an on-going basis.... and you begin to see the pattern.
Now expand that out into the entire genre where many MMO devs are following the same pattern... They're ever trying to find ways to increase the reward while decreasing the player's involvement in obtatining it. They're almost all reward with almost no risk. More and more, players are being removed from the equation and MMOs truly are becoming little more than massive spinner boxes.
With few exceptions, IMO, there is no debate that the MMO genre is becoming dumbed down.
I recently decided to go back into Lineage 2 full time. My mainstay used to be FFXI, and FFXIV was my "new hope" for a MMO that would provide the same kind of deep and engaging experience that XI used to bring. Unfortunately, SE seemed to forget what made FFXI as popular and well-loved as it was and ran in the opposite direction for FFXIV... it's a short search to find out the current status of that game. With FFXI, they've turned the corner toward dumbing it down and making it all about "grinding xp as fast as possible" (beginning with Aht Urghan, concluding with Abyssea). So I've walked away from XI as well.
In L2, I rejoined a clan I was in previously.. and I'm loving it. It's not the same L2 it was back at launch... not even close. But the "soul" of the game is still there. NCSoft has made some concessions over the years and, in the Western market, it's certainly seen a drop in its overall population - no question. But, NCSoft hasn't lost sight of the game it is and most of the concessions they've made are more about getting out of the players' way and allowing them to get to the content the the game is focused around with less hassle. The heart and soul of the game is still there.
So... at least for now, I have L2 to provide me the kind of experience that is lacking in most newer MMOs, and decreasing more with every new one to be released.
tl;dr: Having seen the change happening in real-time as I've played them for the past ~10 years, sometimes happening within a single game.. Yes, MMOs are definitely becoming dumbed down.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The problem is often money I suppose. To get funding, it is easier if you can present a large target audience instead of a limited "experienced, older gamer looking for a real challenge" group. So part of the problem is that game development still suffers from the misconception that games are for kids. (99% of games are made to at least not exclude kids I guess).
For mmorpgs that influences the amount of handholding and restrictions (to protect the poor souls from bullies, guide them to follow the right but beaten path, etc), limits the amount of freedom (like a community being able to police itself which works so great in EVE) and makes the story content less interesting for older, experienced gamers.
An example of how content could be more appealing to us adults would be a game like The Witcher (I don't mean the boobs, but the dialogue / story and general feel).
It's interesting how often the terms 'boring' and 'repetitious' are equated with 'difficult'. Thus anytime these two things are removed from a game in any way, the game is said to have been 'dumbed down' by those unfortunate souls who had to end up slogging through months of pounding out the same combination of keys that can still be used today to accomplish the same feat, but in only a week. The difficulty is identical. The key combination hasn't changed. Only the amount of times you have to repeat it is different. So things aren't dumber in most cases, just faster.
Your post is a classic case of cherry-picking.
People regularly come up with myriad examples of things that used to be common to older MMOs that made them feel more engaging, deeper, more immersive and more interesting... and have nothing to do with "repetition". "Boring" is subjective so there's no point in even including that.
Yet, when people like yourself make a counter-argument, you omit all the other examples and try to lump them into "things that are boring or repetitive".... while misrepresenting the actual arguments people have made at the same time.
If you are going to claim to speak to others' statements... at least make sure you're actually doing so, and not only cherry-picking the parts that suit your argument. Makes for a much more honest discussion.
Thanks.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The problem is often money I suppose. To get funding, it is easier if you can present a large target audience instead of a limited "experienced, older gamer looking for a real challenge" group. So part of the problem is that game development still suffers from the misconception that games are for kids. (99% of games are made to at least not exclude kids I guess).
For mmorpgs that influences the amount of handholding and restrictions (to protect the poor souls from bullies, guide them to follow the right but beaten path, etc), limits the amount of freedom (like a community being able to police itself which works so great in EVE) and makes the story content less interesting for older, experienced gamers.
An example of how content could be more appealing to us adults would be a game like The Witcher (I don't mean the boobs, but the dialogue / story and general feel).
um what?
So really what you are trying to say is. You want a new game with open world pvp and full loot. That nobody seems interested in making it because its likely not financially viable to ask investors for 100 million dollars to make it.
Its ok to just say nobody wants to make a new game you would enjoy. I mean nobody is making UO "The Early Years" for me either... it comes down to development cost and potential profit. The only companies that have tried doing anything different either didn't have funding or just did such a poor job.. that it actually hurt the chances for a "good" game being financed.
Originally posted by Arran105 Hi there guys and gals, I came here to get your opinions and hopefully begin a discussion that I feel could benefit greatly from your experiences and views as seasoned gamers.
Below are some points to consider:
Is grinding (for levels or gear, i.e. raids) becoming a more streamlined process? Or is content getting too easy? If game content is being made too easy, do guilds suffer? And is there any point to interacting in such a way anymore? Is team play dead? Does dumbing down remove a players motivation to play games? Or does easy and entertaining make for longer play time? Reputation and Renown? Did they ever exist in a MMO world, and do they still? Are interactions online of any actual importance? Or have any resemblance to that of real life interaction? Is dumbing down turning the whole MMO community into item ninjas, cheats, and abusive idiots? Or has the community stayed the same? Or always been well idiots? However these points are only guidelines and I am really interested to see what your views on the whole subject are. As well as what your predictions for the future direction of the genre may be. Any responses will be greatly appreciated.
What are the actual differences between the older and newer generation of games? In order for the newer generation of games to be "dumbed down", you need to define what makes them "dumbed down". Relying on statements from (for instance) the mmorpg.com population, 45% of which don't like any mmorpg doesn't give any sort of credibility to your paper.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's interesting how often the terms 'boring' and 'repetitious' are equated with 'difficult'. Thus anytime these two things are removed from a game in any way, the game is said to have been 'dumbed down' by those unfortunate souls who had to end up slogging through months of pounding out the same combination of keys that can still be used today to accomplish the same feat, but in only a week. The difficulty is identical. The key combination hasn't changed. Only the amount of times you have to repeat it is different. So things aren't dumber in most cases, just faster.
Your post is a classic case of cherry-picking.
People regularly come up with myriad examples of things that used to be common to older MMOs that made them feel more engaging, deeper, more immersive and more interesting... and have nothing to do with "repetition". "Boring" is subjective so there's no point in even including that.
Yet, when people like yourself make a counter-argument, you omit all the other examples and try to lump them into "things that are boring or repetitive".... while misrepresenting the actual arguments people have made at the same time.
If you are going to claim to speak to others' statements... at least make sure you're actually doing so, and not only cherry-picking the parts that suit your argument. Makes for a much more honest discussion.
Thanks.
Dumbing down implies making things easier to appeal to the masses. The points you raise, such as engaging, deeper, immersive, interesting..... are not indicative of dumbing something down. A lot of games can immerse you and engage you and be easy to play.
I fail to see how developers cutting content and complexity from a game world to make it 'easier' makes said world 'deeper' and more 'immersive'.
There is a case that removing risk and other systems which mean a player has to actually think about what he is doing from time to time and interact with others does allow the player to get on with what he enjoys best. But it certainly does not add depth and it certainly is dumbing down.
Do you honestly think removing a crafting based economy with deep interplayer dependence and replacing it with a loot based one and a shitty AH is adding depth and immersion?
Do you feel that removing from a player the choice of an open range of skills and instead forcing him to chose from a highly limited class which will define his role in combat is more interesting?
Is plastering big ass arrows all over the screen because the player can't tell his arse from his elbow and find the quest objective adding depth and immersion? Seriously, I doubt some people would make it from their basements to their bathrooms without taking a sat nav with them.
How exactly does the removal of risk and any sense of 'fear' or need for help from others to be replaced by yet ever more shiny carrots on sticks exactly add to depth and immersion? "Oh look at my uber raid gear" says the player to everyone he encounters, all of which have exactly the same fucking gear. It's so easy to get as the developers know gamers want all rewards regardless of their actual ability to play or even concentrate on something for more than five minutes. Yeah it's sooo much more immersive when rare items are common place and everyone is rewarded regardless of what they do.
Ever increasing solo content, great but at high level/endgame..really? How is a lone hobbit going and wtfpwning the Balrog or the like exactly 'immersive'?
Games dumbing down does indeed imply that they are being made easier, but by doing so they are certainly not adding depth and immersion.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The Happiness/Pet Loyalty System has been removed. Hunters will no longer have to manage Happiness for their pets, and the previous damage bonus for pets being happy will now be baseline for all tamed pets.
Insta-happy pets at full level. Part of playing a hunter in WoW used to be pet management.
To me this is an example of dumbing down.
That's an excellent example of dumbing down, actually.
That's actually a piss poor example of 'dumbing down'. There was no pet happiness 'management' . When you pet's happiness icon stopped being green, you gave it food until it became green again. That was the extend of this feature. Calling it 'happiness management' simply lets people hide the fact that it was a brainless actitivity that a lab rat could do.
Does removing a dumb feature make a game dumber or smarter?
This issue really comes down to a clash of viewpoints on what is a 'smart feature' The 'old school' players look at a feature that they thought was smart and call the 'new school' players idiots for liking games without that feature. The 'new school' players look at old features that they think are dumb and call the 'old school' players idiots for liking games with that feature.
Personally I think that many of the 'old school' features actually caused my brain to atrophy so their removal was 'smarting up' the genre.
The Happiness/Pet Loyalty System has been removed. Hunters will no longer have to manage Happiness for their pets, and the previous damage bonus for pets being happy will now be baseline for all tamed pets.
Insta-happy pets at full level. Part of playing a hunter in WoW used to be pet management.
To me this is an example of dumbing down.
That's an excellent example of dumbing down, actually.
That's actually a piss poor example of 'dumbing down'. There was no pet happiness 'management' . When you pet's happiness icon stopped being green, you gave it food until it became green again. That was the extend of this feature. Calling it 'happiness management' simply lets people hide the fact that it was a brainless actitivity that a lab rat could do.
Does removing a dumb feature make a game dumber or smarter?
This issue really comes down to a clash of viewpoints on what is a 'smart feature' The 'old school' players look at a feature that they thought was smart and call the 'new school' players idiots for liking games without that feature. The 'new school' players look at old features that they think are dumb and call the 'old school' players idiots for liking games with that feature.
Personally I think that many of the 'old school' features actually caused my brain to atrophy so their removal was 'smarting up' the genre.
Actually.. no it isn't. Certainly the mechanism could have been expanded on. I'm not familiar with how WoW systems matured, but for instance giving the animal different types of food might have given them a stat boost, or made them gain HP but lose speed (or vice versa). That would have enhanced the mechanism and added an additional layer of complexity AND added more character to the RPG. Instead they deleted the system in it's entirety and gave everyone a bonus at all times. Thus making the game... "less complex" and removing another possible tactical layer from the game.
Again... this is a move toward the console gameplay (less complex... more action oriented) and away from the RPG portion of the game (more character-centric and tactical in nature). I think the issue is in the verbiage used as "dumbing down" sounds insulting. I prefer my description used above.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The Happiness/Pet Loyalty System has been removed. Hunters will no longer have to manage Happiness for their pets, and the previous damage bonus for pets being happy will now be baseline for all tamed pets.
Insta-happy pets at full level. Part of playing a hunter in WoW used to be pet management.
To me this is an example of dumbing down.
That's an excellent example of dumbing down, actually.
That's actually a piss poor example of 'dumbing down'. There was no pet happiness 'management' . When you pet's happiness icon stopped being green, you gave it food until it became green again. That was the extend of this feature. Calling it 'happiness management' simply lets people hide the fact that it was a brainless actitivity that a lab rat could do.
Does removing a dumb feature make a game dumber or smarter?
This issue really comes down to a clash of viewpoints on what is a 'smart feature' The 'old school' players look at a feature that they thought was smart and call the 'new school' players idiots for liking games without that feature. The 'new school' players look at old features that they think are dumb and call the 'old school' players idiots for liking games with that feature.
Personally I think that many of the 'old school' features actually caused my brain to atrophy so their removal was 'smarting up' the genre.
the devil is in the details.. point is though.. how many 'features' have to be removed, or simplified.. before its classed as 'dumbing down' the 'hunter thing' with pets happiness is relevant though, as it took time for the pet to become loyal etc, it wasnt a case of 'feed me till i smile' though obviously in the short term it would seem that way.. but.. how about the arrows/bullets, which were suddenly no longer necessary.. hunters had to prepare for their 'excursions' and carry enough ammunition to get them through whatever they were doing, there was even special ammunition that did increased damage ( and was crafted by other players!) that you needed for dungeons/raids/pvp etc.. is removing that 'feature' a case of dumbing down.. or not? and this is just hunters.. warlocks had to manage their soulstones, they don't anymore.. because they don't exist.. beyond a relatively meaningless boost ... was that 'smarting up' the genre.. or .. dumbing it down? imo.. its these 'features' that often make the characters feel more real.. removing them.. just detracts from the game itself...
Originally posted by jerkbeast Middle Man wasn't a class, but a player driven choice, and if you did it your rep was based on your actions. In games now if you piss to many people off you can get a race change, a name change, and a faction change and start over so it is GONE. Rep doesn't matter anymore.
I remember in Asheron's Call magical items you found you couldn't use until you identified it. So I parked my little alt, Tickle, near a dungeon hub city and offered my services in identifying things. Eventually I got a nice reputation for being able to ID things but also for not stealing anything. The great thing about it was that people would tip me for my services. I ended up making more money and meeting more friends by being an IDer than I did exploring or adventuring. Also got to keep quite a few things too people didn't want.
Three things I want to address real quick before I give your questions my best shot:
First, you're using the phrase "dumbed down" in a way that isn't very fitting. When I hear the phrase, I think of a game that is a simpler version of another game, with some of the complexities removed. I wouldn't use it to compare one game to a completely different game, even within the same genre. For example, American checkers and Chinese checkers. Doesn't take a genius to see that the number of permutations in Chinese checkers grows much larger, but I would never call American checkers a dumbed down version. One resembles the other but the rules and goals are just too different; they are two different games. For that reason, I think using a general term like "simpler" is more accurate than saying "dumbed down" when comparing—for example—DAoC to Rift. But using it to describe changes made to a game is okay.
Second, you mention "criticisms that MMORPGs are becoming dumbed down", which implies that dumbing down is commonly a bad thing. I don't think that this is so. Just off the top of my head, if I logged into my bank's website and had the option to log into a complicated page that would help me balance my budget, tell me how much interest I'm earning, let me order a new checkbook, report my debit card as stolen, show me a map with all the ATMs in the area, etc.... I'd almost always rather have a dumbed down page that leaves out all the extra features and lets me see my current balance and recent activity. Likewise, while a highly complex game can be appealing in some ways, substituting a simplified set of rules does not necessarily reduce the fun factor.
And finally, for someone who's trying to write a college paper about pros and cons, you come up with some awfully leading questions. You really make it obvious which side you're on and what answers you would like to receive. In the interest of impartiality, it would have been better if you had asked your questions in a neutral way.
That said, I'll answer to the best of my ability. Many of my answers are related to the trend of having information flow more easily from player to player, both inside and outside of the game. I think this trend is more responsible for how MMOs have changed over time than deliberate simplification.
"Is grinding becoming a more streamlined process? Or is content getting too easy?" By streamlined, I would have to assume you mean that inefficiencies have been removed. But there are activities that people want to do which are wasteful and inefficient (as far as the goal of character progress is concerned), such as exploring and socializing. So the real question is not whether progress now no longer includes wasteful activities, but whether you are able to exclude wasteful activities that you don't enjoy. I think it would be really hard to note a trend here because of differences in preference from player to player and from game to game. But I'd like to note that back in MUD days, it was possible to grind constantly with almost no need to pause for anything. Because fast movement and cheap potions were commonplace, there was no real need to insert even a 5-second pause in your grinding. Contrast this with the common quest hub in a themepark, where you will be interrupted every few minutes by a need to click through some quest dialogue windows even if reading the text is something you don't enjoy.
Ease of content is a totally separate question; it has very little to do with streamlining. The form of difficulty that is common to RPGs is "Can you take this information and make a decision based on it?" The level of difficulty depends on how complex the choice is, how fast you have to respond, how correct your response must be, and the punishment for failure. As far as the first two are concerned, MMORPGs are generally much harder today than ever before. You are given a lot more information and have a more complex choice to make with it. And there is an increasing trend toward twitch gaming which requires a fast response. The third point, margin of error, seems to be more flexible in modern games. You may have the option to choose an unforgiving challenge that allows for no mistakes or something more lenient depending on your preference. The more challenging content might be for a better reward or just bragging rights. The only point where the old games are harder is the fourth point: the consequences. And is that really a good thing when you lack complexity? Oops, you chose wrong... TPK, lose a level, half hour corpse run. Honestly, as much as I like the oldschool tension created by a death penalty hanging over your head, the complexity is more important than the punishment if you must choose between one or the other.
"If game content is being made too easy, do guilds suffer? And is there any point to interacting in such a way anymore? Is team play dead?" Since I don't think games are getting strictly easier, that's difficult to answer. I think that the increased complexity and twitchiness makes it impossible for some players to participate in group content because they're not intelligent enough or their reflexes aren't fast enough. I think that's bad for guilds because it bars many people from participating based on something that they cannot change. But the adjustable margin of error makes it okay. Skilled players can always drop down and do easier, more forgiving content with unskilled friends. It doesn't work the other way around, so having that option is completely a good thing for guilds.
"Does “dumbing down” remove a players motivation to play games? Or does easy and entertaining make for longer play time?" If you try to do something and you fail and fail, that can be either motivating or demotivating. It depends on whether you know why you are failing. If you are failing because the choices are complex and your failures are revealing the flaws in your tactics, that pushes you toward trying harder and learning more. If you are failing for either of the other two reasons (twitch skills or small margin of error), it tends to be a lot more frustrating.
The other way to fail is by not knowing some hidden information. Game designers have moved more toward deeper complexity rather than hidden information, so this doesn't happen as much anymore. They have needed to do this because of how easily modern players share information. It is assumed that players have all the information. The only way to challenge them is to test their knowledge of a complex system rather than testing to see if they have one piece of hidden information, like which route leads directly to the boss.
"Reputation and Renown? Did they ever exist in a MMO world, and do they still?" Sure. Individuals and guilds are still renowned for their accomplishments, top guilds care about server firsts and such. Reputation... that's a tough one. It leads into my response to the next question.
"Are interactions online of any actual importance? Or have any resemblance to that of real life interaction?" At the same time that the playerbase has expanded to include more casual MMO players who may not even see themselves as real "gamers", it has also seen many more people treating the game as though it is SRS BZNS when it truly is not. It's a game. Whatever bad reputation you think should follow someone forever for what he did to this raid or to that guild, it's a game. It's ultimately a conversation about wanting serious and lasting consequences for something bad that a person does in a video game. This is reasonable up to a point, but most inter-/intra-guild drama goes way beyond that point. It seems like this happens more now than it did in the past, but I'm not sure what to blame that on. In most games, the extent to which one player can do in-game harm another player (without breaking TOS) seems to have substantially decreased. There aren't so many Killer archtypes in MMOs ever since developers realized how much more money there was to be made by keeping them out. Perhaps with fewer truly antagonistic players, we've got nothing left to get pissed about other than petty squabblings.
"Is “dumbing down” turning the whole MMO community into item ninjas, cheats, and abusive idiots? Or has the community stayed the same? Or always been…well…idiots?" Again, difficult to answer since I don't believe that MMORPGs have become simpler or easier, only less punishing and optionally more forgiving of errors. What's changed is that there is more communication between players. Forums, fansites and wikis outside of game, server-wide public channels within the game. More opportunities for people who don't take the game world seriously to interact with the people who do: a breeding ground for trolls. You speak of "the whole MMO community" but it should be commonsense that the average player doesn't speak up very much at all. The loudest people are the ones at the extremes. The entire community isn't getting more abusive, but the trolls are trolling louder and the elitists are QQ'ing louder in response.
These are all, of course, my personal opinions based on my MMO experiences.
Is grinding (for levels or gear, i.e. raids) becoming a more streamlined process? Or is content getting too easy?
Yes and yes. Leveling up has become more streamlined in quest-based leveling MMOs as the 'running around' from zone to zone has been reduced. Is this a good thing? Well, as a Process Analyst by trade (efficiency expert), it is my job to flowchart a process and make it as streamlined as possible, thereby reducing cost and manhours. Good for a corporation. Good for a game? I don't think so. In a game it makes leveling and content trivial. I believe when leveling is that quick and easy players fall into the mindset of rushing to max level because, well, it's boring now. As opposed to a game where questing is challenging and leveling is slow, players may 'settle down' and pay more attention to the lore and the npcs because they know they're going to be there for awhile. They may split time leveling between questing and exploring or engaging in PvP, group play, or roleplay. But if you know you can hit max level by following one boring super-easy quest after another for a couple of days, eh, may as well do it and 'get it over with'. As someone who prefers the journey over the rush to endgame type of play, I feel most games nowadays have little to offer me.
If game content is being made too easy, do guilds suffer? And is there any point to interacting in such a way anymore? Is team play dead?
Are you referring to endgame content here in this question? It sounds like you are asking about raids but I am not entirely sure. Well guilds are still necesary for raiding, at least progressive raiding and hardmode. Do we need guilds anymore for group content? Doesn't seem that way. Group content is becoming extinct, or made easy enough that you can come back 2 levels later and solo it. I don't like to see the focus on solo play in MMOs. I believe that's what console gaming is for. MMOs were always about the 'band of adventurers' overcoming great obstacles.
Does “dumbing down” remove a players motivation to play games? Or does easy and entertaining make for longer play time?
I would think this depends on the individual. The Skinner Box shows that humans can be conditioned to keep pushing buttons to get rewards, but that rewarding every push of a button is not as effective. In fact, I think what WoW did right during its Vanilla and TBC phase was make rewards somewhat difficult to achieve, which kept people wanting to play for many hours and many years. Now for example (again my opinion here), I played Rift and felt like everything came easy. There was no struggle to complete any quest. No struggle to attain gear. No struggle to get crafting mats. I just....pushed buttons and got the rewards without challenge. And for that reason I have already cancelled my sub, because I'm not engaged enough and therefore, not entertained.
Reputation and Renown? Did they ever exist in a MMO world, and do they still?
Yes they most certainly did exist. And I believe in MMOs where you cannot cross-faction group up or easily transfer servers/name change, they still exist.
Are interactions online of any actual importance? Or have any resemblance to that of real life interaction?
If you are asking if I believe that getting 'achievements' or server-firsts to level or complete a raid or get the most PvP kills matters in real life, my answer is a resounding no. What value does anything you accomplish in an MMO have in a person's real life? It won't get you a better job, it won't get you a raise, it won't get you a relationship or improve your relationship (it often does the opposite). It won't make your family happy, it won't clean your house, do your shopping, pay your bills, get you elected, etc etc.
Is “dumbing down” turning the whole MMO community into item ninjas, cheats, and abusive idiots? Or has the community stayed the same? Or always been…well…idiots?
I think the MMO community is much more hostile than it used to be, overall. The focus on solo-play enforces an 'every man to himself' kind of attitude. Much like in real life. How would you act if you were completely self-sufficient and needed no one? Well, for an example take a look at the crazy behavior of the spoiled heirs and heiresses of the US. They do whatever they want because they can, for the most part. But the rest of us non-uber rich are far more dependent on others to survive, so we behave a certain way to keep ourselves in good favor. That's how it was in the early days of MMOs as well: when you couldn't solo your way through the entire game you tried to make a good, or at least a neutral reputation for yourself so that others would group with you or take you on their raids. As far as the cheats and ninjas, I think a lot of that may be due to the gold farming business, which is an entirely different issue.
The Happiness/Pet Loyalty System has been removed. Hunters will no longer have to manage Happiness for their pets, and the previous damage bonus for pets being happy will now be baseline for all tamed pets.
Insta-happy pets at full level. Part of playing a hunter in WoW used to be pet management.
To me this is an example of dumbing down.
That's an excellent example of dumbing down, actually.
That's actually a piss poor example of 'dumbing down'. There was no pet happiness 'management' . When you pet's happiness icon stopped being green, you gave it food until it became green again. That was the extend of this feature. Calling it 'happiness management' simply lets people hide the fact that it was a brainless actitivity that a lab rat could do.
Does removing a dumb feature make a game dumber or smarter?
This issue really comes down to a clash of viewpoints on what is a 'smart feature' The 'old school' players look at a feature that they thought was smart and call the 'new school' players idiots for liking games without that feature. The 'new school' players look at old features that they think are dumb and call the 'old school' players idiots for liking games with that feature.
Personally I think that many of the 'old school' features actually caused my brain to atrophy so their removal was 'smarting up' the genre.
Feeding pets is very important. The happier a pet is, the more damage it deals:
Happy: 125% damage
Content: 100% damage
Unhappy: 75% damage
well if you play wow and forget to feed your pet,or dont understand to carry food with you,its better to remove this kind of brainless features.
edit:in the past you had to hunt some of the special attacks for pets by yourself,bite6 or something was on blackrock umm spire or something,you had to tame some elite dog or something,anyways it was team instance and someone soloed that ability ,it was epic story how he/she did it,,and these kind of things wont happen again,since theres no way,theres no challenges to do anything like that anymore,because people dont know how to even feed their pets anymore since its "brainless activity"
Is grinding (for levels or gear, i.e. raids) becoming a more streamlined process? Or is content getting too easy?
It definately is! I remember when I hit level 85 in Cata and 50 in Rift. My options for doing anything to improve my character was effectively limited to: Heroics/experts, pvp, raid, and in rift's case crafting dailies to get tokens. Suddenly even though I want to play I'm limited into only doing these things to get better.
If game content is being made too easy, do guilds suffer? Yeah, I think so. WOTLK's easy peasy dungeon system and raid system showed me having a guild was useless when I could pug my way through all content. Granted that was kinda fixed come cata, but I didn't see a point to be in a guild beyond the social aspect.
And is there any point to interacting in such a way anymore? Is team play dead? Team play is best reflected with long term goals that are tangible in some way. Looking at games like EVE, Lineage and similar games where you need to capture and told territory. Team play is essential! Otherwise, you can just get four 'NPCs' from the dungeon finder system and run yourself an instance.
Does “dumbing down” remove a players motivation to play games? Simple games are for simple people. Sometimes I want to go mindless pvp bashing, sometimes I want to go build something long term (like gain territory). If I don't feel the accomplishment in doing it, I might not be motivated to try or continue trying. I'll simply do it once and say "Well, that was interesting. But I beat it now, so, lets go do something else."
Or does easy and entertaining make for longer play time? Easy games don't hold interest over long periods of time. That being said I don't want to have Ninja Gaiden hardmode difficulty on everything I do either.
Reputation and Renown? Did they ever exist in a MMO world, and do they still? Yeah, they did. But with the coming of character transfers, race change and all that jazz it means less. I personally believe the next step of mmo's is to move to a single shard, single character stage where any and all of your choices stay with you as long as people remember them.
Are interactions online of any actual importance? Or have any resemblance to that of real life interaction? People who annoy me, or 'suck' don't get my time. You'd be surprised how many times I've struck up conversations with people in game talking about books or sports, really it's just a big chat room with the game being an underlying common ground.
Is “dumbing down” turning the whole MMO community into item ninjas, cheats, and abusive idiots? Or has the community stayed the same? Or always been…well…idiots?
Problematic people will always be around. But I think that the problem comes from the MMO company being more afraid of the player, than the player is afraid of the MMO company. Rules and policies must be clearly stated, and ruthlessly enforced to a point. Otherwise the community should be given the tools to police themselves. (Allow players to post warnings on players for ninjas, player bounties, trolling, vote based AFK Kick in BGs, etc.)
MMOs aren't being dumbed down. They're being freed from the bondage that was hardcore masochism.
Themepark MMOs aren't being dumbed down. They're being freed from the bondage that was hardcore masochism artificially added for the sake of the illusion of being an MMORPG. An illusion that allows them to charge extra, and then implement things like lock-out timers on content and fight wars against gold farmers with absurd rules. And call it a FREE content update lol.
See you in the dream.. The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
It's interesting how often the terms 'boring' and 'repetitious' are equated with 'difficult'. Thus anytime these two things are removed from a game in any way, the game is said to have been 'dumbed down' by those unfortunate souls who had to end up slogging through months of pounding out the same combination of keys that can still be used today to accomplish the same feat, but in only a week. The difficulty is identical. The key combination hasn't changed. Only the amount of times you have to repeat it is different. So things aren't dumber in most cases, just faster.
Your post is a classic case of cherry-picking.
People regularly come up with myriad examples of things that used to be common to older MMOs that made them feel more engaging, deeper, more immersive and more interesting... and have nothing to do with "repetition". "Boring" is subjective so there's no point in even including that.
Yet, when people like yourself make a counter-argument, you omit all the other examples and try to lump them into "things that are boring or repetitive".... while misrepresenting the actual arguments people have made at the same time.
If you are going to claim to speak to others' statements... at least make sure you're actually doing so, and not only cherry-picking the parts that suit your argument. Makes for a much more honest discussion.
Thanks.
Dumbing down implies making things easier to appeal to the masses. The points you raise, such as engaging, deeper, immersive, interesting..... are not indicative of dumbing something down. A lot of games can immerse you and engage you and be easy to play.
Wrong.
In FFXI, I did not run into town and see a series of NPCs with ! conveniently hanging over their heads indicating 'Hey I have a quest!". I had to talk to NPCs, see what they had to say and, in fact, may already know something about them based on information given to me in previous interactions with them, or perhaps previous tasks I'd completed for them. That alone provides more immersion in the world. These NPCs are actual residents of the world.. not conveniently placed quest dispensers. That aspect along renders the game's world far more interesting and immersive than one where you enter a town to a sea of yellow ! or quills or books or what-have-you hanging over a dozen NPCs' heads.
And it doesn't stop with how they're presented...
In FFXI, for example, when talking to a NPC, I had to pay attention to what they said, keep in mind any clues or information they gave in order to figure out what I needed to do, who I needed to talk to next or where I needed to go. There were no convenient markers placed on my mini-map or world map pin-pointing the exact spot. There were no arrows showing me which way to go to reach the next objective. I had to work that out on my own. There was no arrow pointing the way to the location. The quest item (if there was one to retrieve) was not glowing or giving off sparkles that I could see from 100 feet away. Completing the goal was left entirely up to me to figure out and carry through on.
I had to actually use my brain, work with the clues given and *quest* for the given goal...
If you don't think that's more engaging and interesting than the way newer MMOs spell everything out for you, show you exactly where to go, highlight exactly what you need to get and leave you to do little more than go through the motions... then there's nothing more for us to discuss on this topic.
In FFXI, many of the quests - especially the larger ones - required an understanding of the enemies you'd be encountering and, in fact, a lot of them brought you into areas far too dangerous to survive at your level - even with a party. Getting in, completing the quest and getting out in one piece was *definitely* more involved and far more challenging than the way newer MMOs are setup. You tried pulling the careless, stupid and sloppy crap people pull in most newer MMOs in FFXI or others from that period, and you'd be in a world of hurt. Being careless or stupid carries a high price in those games... so people tended to avoid being careless or stupid. That provided for an experience that was more strategic, more engaging and more interesting than the "Fail your way to success! Everyone's a winner! Even the losers!" approach typically used in many mainstream MMOs these days.
In newer MMOs you can literally just keep failing your way through something 'til you succeed. Run in, kill what you can.... die.... res... go back... run in... kill what you can... die... res... go back in... ad nauseum. Eventually.. "Hey! We completed the quest! We rock this game!" That is not challenging. That is definitely dumbed down.
Understanding the environment, understanding the enemies you were dealing with and being able to figure things out - often on the fly - was critical in several of those older MMOs. That is far more engaging, far more challenging and far more interesting than what is on offer in most mainstream MMOs today.
In newer, mainstream MMOs, if the game leaves anything for the player to figure out on their own at all, it's so obvious you'd have to literally not be trying, at all, to figure it out. That's not challenging. That's not engaging. That is definitely dumbed down.
There are myriad other examples I could give. But I believe my point has been made.
And no, "well there are online walkthroughs, so it wasn't that difficult" is not a counter-argument - just in case anyone was planning on using it. Online walkthroughs are optional, they are not required. I seldom ever used them, unless I had genuinely made the effort to solve it myself and was at a loss. The point is, I had to go out of game to get that info. It wasn't dropped right in front of my face by the game itself.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It's interesting how often the terms 'boring' and 'repetitious' are equated with 'difficult'. Thus anytime these two things are removed from a game in any way, the game is said to have been 'dumbed down' by those unfortunate souls who had to end up slogging through months of pounding out the same combination of keys that can still be used today to accomplish the same feat, but in only a week. The difficulty is identical. The key combination hasn't changed. Only the amount of times you have to repeat it is different. So things aren't dumber in most cases, just faster.
Your post is a classic case of cherry-picking.
People regularly come up with myriad examples of things that used to be common to older MMOs that made them feel more engaging, deeper, more immersive and more interesting... and have nothing to do with "repetition". "Boring" is subjective so there's no point in even including that.
Yet, when people like yourself make a counter-argument, you omit all the other examples and try to lump them into "things that are boring or repetitive".... while misrepresenting the actual arguments people have made at the same time.
If you are going to claim to speak to others' statements... at least make sure you're actually doing so, and not only cherry-picking the parts that suit your argument. Makes for a much more honest discussion.
Thanks.
Dumbing down implies making things easier to appeal to the masses. The points you raise, such as engaging, deeper, immersive, interesting..... are not indicative of dumbing something down. A lot of games can immerse you and engage you and be easy to play.
Wrong.
In FFXI, I did not run into town and see a series of NPCs with ! conveniently hanging over their heads indicating 'Hey I have a quest!". I had to talk to NPCs, see what they had to say and, in fact, may already know something about them based on information given to me in previous interactions with them, or perhaps previous tasks I'd completed for them. That alone provides more immersion in the world. These NPCs are actual residents of the world.. not conveniently placed quest dispensers. That aspect along renders the game's world far more interesting and immersive than one where you enter a town to a sea of yellow ! or quills or books or what-have-you hanging over a dozen NPCs' heads.
And it doesn't stop with how they're presented...
In FFXI, for example, when talking to a NPC, I had to pay attention to what they said, keep in mind any clues or information they gave in order to figure out what I needed to do, who I needed to talk to next or where I needed to go. There were no convenient markers placed on my mini-map or world map pin-pointing the exact spot. There were no arrows showing me which way to go to reach the next objective. I had to work that out on my own. There was no arrow pointing the way to the location. The quest item (if there was one to retrieve) was not glowing or giving off sparkles that I could see from 100 feet away. Completing the goal was left entirely up to me to figure out and carry through on.
I had to actually use my brain, work with the clues given and *quest* for the given goal...
If you don't think that's more engaging and interesting than the way newer MMOs spell everything out for you, show you exactly where to go, highlight exactly what you need to get and leave you to do little more than go through the motions... then there's nothing more for us to discuss on this topic.
To Elidien's point, how is this harder to play? Getting to know womehting about NPC quest-givers, with or without and "!" over their head, doesn't make any game harder to play.
MMOs aren't being dumbed down. They're being freed from the bondage that was hardcore masochism.
Themepark MMOs aren't being dumbed down. They're being freed from the bondage that was hardcore masochism artificially added for the sake of the illusion of being an MMORPG. An illusion that allows them to charge extra, and then implement things like lock-out timers on content and fight wars against gold farmers with absurd rules. And call it a FREE content update lol.
LOL.. lockout timers? I think you are arguing the wrong case... I don't think "lockout timers" are a core part of any argument I have heard before...
Anyhow, I will simply once again point out that the original iterations of MMORPGs were created by guys that had grown up playing computer games and/or PnP RPGs. They played the actual Ultima series on their Apple/C64/PC (we can even go futher back to the 70s). They played games like the GoldBox DnD games from SSI. They played The Bards Tale or Fallout. They were making the games for folks like themselves.
Today's MMOs are made (more and more) to cater to the console generation. This is a generation that enjoys reduced complexity and increased pace of action. They come from a background of Halo, God of War, or Call of Duty. This playstyle stresses "player skills" as opposed to "character skills". Everything that can be done in these games can be quickly accomplished by use of a control pad.
What will eventually happen is that the games will evolve far enough from their roots to become a separate genre.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
well i guess if mmos suck so bad then u can allways play something simple ... like chess. It is always this same thing "when i was a kid i had to walk 5 miles uphil to school in 3 feet of snow, and the same going home. please, it does not help. things appere to change but really dont. people cripe becouse they like to, it was the same way in 1975 when i started to play DnD, the white box 3 booklet version, the ADnD came out and the same happoned. It is not new.
After some thought, I think saying 'dumbed down' isnt quite right. At its heart MMOs have never been difficult and while there are some differences now in playing (EQ could argue 5 class focus...tank, healer, dps, buff/debuff and control...u dont see much of the later two anymore except as auxiliary to a function of the first 3) it does simplify things and it is most definately a loss, but I wouldnt necessarily call a game that doesnt have those functions 'dumber'. Mostly the idea of easy comes from people dont die and get frustrated as much, so hey its easy.
What I think is the biggest issue to hit MMOs is that of consequence does'nt really exist in game anymore. It appears to me the majority now days believes since they pay money for a game they dont deserve any 'penalty' for failure. And lack of penalty means has resulted in a loss of patience in general. Games are now rush for this or and no time for anything else so why develop it? Once the rush to 'finish' is done there is nothing left and boredom sets in. Who cares what a dungeon looks like, lets run through it? Story line?...takes too long to read it /skip. Oh man that guys dps is down its going to take 5 more mins to kill the boss /drop. Chat, help, explain, be nice? wtf just finish the dungeon. See the world? heck no, teleport. CC? isnt that AoE tanking? much faster kill them all at once, need to do 5 more dungeons today. Push 5 buttons, no way...macro. And on and on.
In EQ no matter what anyone now days will tell you, it absolutely sucked to die. A good day would be turned sour in a swift moment of someone making a mistake. Hours of play down the tubes, nobody liked it.
But that consequence had a very drastic efffect on the player population, that when it got removed produced a drastic change in players and player base, not truly anticipated I think.
With the death penalty came caution, care, patience, planning, coordinate play, group and guild foundations, general consideration (always there have been griefers), a willingness to work for a payday, kindness, aid, etc...And to all those one can add a topper, a very profound sense of accomplishment at every level that gave EQ the name 'evercrack'. All side benefits of 'I dont want to die'. Mind you I dont claim that doesnt exist to day, but I do believe its no longer the majority but the minority...who might be old timers like me who remember ;p
And death wasnt the only consequence but other 'speed/efficiency functions' resulted in other loss of consequences that also impacted the enviroment. Fast travel and ease of travel access cut down on bartering and of course player interaction. Auction houses removed the need to play in the game and talk with people to buy/sell. With encumberance gone money hoarding became vialble and reduced the need to go to town and interact. The mailbox removed the need to talk with folks to trade between characters and also removed a way to build trust between players and friendships.
The list goes on, but ultimately in a game where there isnt any consequence, especially in one that is suppose to represent a real and vibrant world, then there is a lack of many things. Good things and bad but I think the current 'dumbing' down attitude is the feeling of the loss of the good things, an empty world, empty game where nameless people flow in out only to disappear once the 'rush' is over.
It is rather interesting from a human perspective though...what would the real world be like if there were not any consequences...from looking at the online game world, I dont think mankind can handle that.
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The developers are even removing the players choice of how they want their character to be "spec'd". In the OMG, WoW, you're forced to put 31 pts into 1 spec before you can go into any others. In Rift, they don't allow you to put all your points into 1 tree.
The instant gratification is the cause, I agree. I remember when an uncommon(blue) item would drop in a raid and you'd be excited to get it. Now all the players expect to see the holy epic or they're not getting what they pay for in the game.
Someone else noted Hunters in WoW and their pets happiness being removed so players didn't have to manage their happiness, long before that, Hunters had to tame pets to get their abilities. Back when it was actually fun to play because you knew YOUR pet had the best ability. Furious Howl(Rank 6) LBRS the only place you could tame the wolf with that ability/rank. Now players are told, the best pet/spec/build/blah blah blah and then you get purpz.
I'll go to anything, even back to reading more, than paying monthly fees for the dumbed down MMOs of now.
The first wave of MMORPG players were folks that were either computer game players and/or PnP role playing game players. In many instances there were both. The current generation has cut their teeth on console games in general and FPS for the majority.
The result is that MMORPGS have grown to more resemble console games in areas such as tempo. We have also gotten far away from the original RPG experience where the concept was to play a character.. with the character's skills etc. Today you hear buzzwords like "player skill" and "bunnyhopping". So I don't know that I would use the term "dumbed down", but every generation seems to move closer and closer to the current console games and now they even are DESIGNED for them (DCUO).
My preference is something more along the lines of the original waves of MMOs.. UO, EQ, AC, DAoC. Games that require actual interaction with the world beyond what a simple "rumblepad" can provide.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
When I first started playing online games, (mud, mush, moo, etc...) the trend was towards complexity, greater detail, greater fidelity to the environment/world being created and greater freedom for the player to create and play their character. Currently that trend feels like its being stopped or reversed in some cases. So if you want to refer to that as being 'dumbed down' then, yes.
Is grinding (for levels or gear, i.e. raids) becoming a more streamlined process? Or is content getting too easy?
Who remembers when a raid was actualy invading a city and not some mindless dungon run?
grinding is becoming much more user friendly and the brain powere required is decreasing as a result. The lack of inovative design is partialy to blame. The player base being more familar with mechanics is the other.
If game content is being made too easy, do guilds suffer? Not if there is a decent leadership team
And is there any point to interacting in such a way anymore? Is team play dead? It depends on the game.
Does “dumbing down” remove a players motivation to play games? For me it does. ther hae been a few games that were wonderfully complex and they dumbed it down because they listened to the vocal minority with out proper market testing.
Or does easy and entertaining make for longer play time? I like the idea of needing a PhD to figure out games.
Reputation and Renown? Did they ever exist in a MMO world, and do they still? yes and yes
Are interactions online of any actual importance? Or have any resemblance to that of real life interaction?That is up to the individual. I prefer not to hang out with folks that are rageing epeeners. This apples to the world in and out of the game.
Is “dumbing down” turning the whole MMO community into item ninjas, cheats, and abusive idiots? Or has the community stayed the same? Or always been…well…idiots?
Cheeters will aleays be present. Gold buyers will allways be present. The difference is that mmos are a main stream thing. Globalization is also a consideration. As for the ninjas and idiots I usually ignore them. I have noticed that my ignore lists get larger and larger with every new game.
That's an excellent example of dumbing down, actually.
Now extrapolate that across an entire game, and have such things occur on an on-going basis.... and you begin to see the pattern.
Now expand that out into the entire genre where many MMO devs are following the same pattern... They're ever trying to find ways to increase the reward while decreasing the player's involvement in obtatining it. They're almost all reward with almost no risk. More and more, players are being removed from the equation and MMOs truly are becoming little more than massive spinner boxes.
With few exceptions, IMO, there is no debate that the MMO genre is becoming dumbed down.
I recently decided to go back into Lineage 2 full time. My mainstay used to be FFXI, and FFXIV was my "new hope" for a MMO that would provide the same kind of deep and engaging experience that XI used to bring. Unfortunately, SE seemed to forget what made FFXI as popular and well-loved as it was and ran in the opposite direction for FFXIV... it's a short search to find out the current status of that game. With FFXI, they've turned the corner toward dumbing it down and making it all about "grinding xp as fast as possible" (beginning with Aht Urghan, concluding with Abyssea). So I've walked away from XI as well.
In L2, I rejoined a clan I was in previously.. and I'm loving it. It's not the same L2 it was back at launch... not even close. But the "soul" of the game is still there. NCSoft has made some concessions over the years and, in the Western market, it's certainly seen a drop in its overall population - no question. But, NCSoft hasn't lost sight of the game it is and most of the concessions they've made are more about getting out of the players' way and allowing them to get to the content the the game is focused around with less hassle. The heart and soul of the game is still there.
So... at least for now, I have L2 to provide me the kind of experience that is lacking in most newer MMOs, and decreasing more with every new one to be released.
tl;dr: Having seen the change happening in real-time as I've played them for the past ~10 years, sometimes happening within a single game.. Yes, MMOs are definitely becoming dumbed down.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The problem is often money I suppose. To get funding, it is easier if you can present a large target audience instead of a limited "experienced, older gamer looking for a real challenge" group. So part of the problem is that game development still suffers from the misconception that games are for kids. (99% of games are made to at least not exclude kids I guess).
For mmorpgs that influences the amount of handholding and restrictions (to protect the poor souls from bullies, guide them to follow the right but beaten path, etc), limits the amount of freedom (like a community being able to police itself which works so great in EVE) and makes the story content less interesting for older, experienced gamers.
An example of how content could be more appealing to us adults would be a game like The Witcher (I don't mean the boobs, but the dialogue / story and general feel).
My brand new bloggity blog.
Your post is a classic case of cherry-picking.
People regularly come up with myriad examples of things that used to be common to older MMOs that made them feel more engaging, deeper, more immersive and more interesting... and have nothing to do with "repetition". "Boring" is subjective so there's no point in even including that.
Yet, when people like yourself make a counter-argument, you omit all the other examples and try to lump them into "things that are boring or repetitive".... while misrepresenting the actual arguments people have made at the same time.
If you are going to claim to speak to others' statements... at least make sure you're actually doing so, and not only cherry-picking the parts that suit your argument. Makes for a much more honest discussion.
Thanks.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
um what?
So really what you are trying to say is. You want a new game with open world pvp and full loot. That nobody seems interested in making it because its likely not financially viable to ask investors for 100 million dollars to make it.
Its ok to just say nobody wants to make a new game you would enjoy. I mean nobody is making UO "The Early Years" for me either... it comes down to development cost and potential profit. The only companies that have tried doing anything different either didn't have funding or just did such a poor job.. that it actually hurt the chances for a "good" game being financed.
What are the actual differences between the older and newer generation of games? In order for the newer generation of games to be "dumbed down", you need to define what makes them "dumbed down". Relying on statements from (for instance) the mmorpg.com population, 45% of which don't like any mmorpg doesn't give any sort of credibility to your paper.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I fail to see how developers cutting content and complexity from a game world to make it 'easier' makes said world 'deeper' and more 'immersive'.
There is a case that removing risk and other systems which mean a player has to actually think about what he is doing from time to time and interact with others does allow the player to get on with what he enjoys best. But it certainly does not add depth and it certainly is dumbing down.
Do you honestly think removing a crafting based economy with deep interplayer dependence and replacing it with a loot based one and a shitty AH is adding depth and immersion?
Do you feel that removing from a player the choice of an open range of skills and instead forcing him to chose from a highly limited class which will define his role in combat is more interesting?
Is plastering big ass arrows all over the screen because the player can't tell his arse from his elbow and find the quest objective adding depth and immersion? Seriously, I doubt some people would make it from their basements to their bathrooms without taking a sat nav with them.
How exactly does the removal of risk and any sense of 'fear' or need for help from others to be replaced by yet ever more shiny carrots on sticks exactly add to depth and immersion? "Oh look at my uber raid gear" says the player to everyone he encounters, all of which have exactly the same fucking gear. It's so easy to get as the developers know gamers want all rewards regardless of their actual ability to play or even concentrate on something for more than five minutes. Yeah it's sooo much more immersive when rare items are common place and everyone is rewarded regardless of what they do.
Ever increasing solo content, great but at high level/endgame..really? How is a lone hobbit going and wtfpwning the Balrog or the like exactly 'immersive'?
Games dumbing down does indeed imply that they are being made easier, but by doing so they are certainly not adding depth and immersion.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
That's actually a piss poor example of 'dumbing down'. There was no pet happiness 'management' . When you pet's happiness icon stopped being green, you gave it food until it became green again. That was the extend of this feature. Calling it 'happiness management' simply lets people hide the fact that it was a brainless actitivity that a lab rat could do.
Does removing a dumb feature make a game dumber or smarter?
This issue really comes down to a clash of viewpoints on what is a 'smart feature' The 'old school' players look at a feature that they thought was smart and call the 'new school' players idiots for liking games without that feature. The 'new school' players look at old features that they think are dumb and call the 'old school' players idiots for liking games with that feature.
Personally I think that many of the 'old school' features actually caused my brain to atrophy so their removal was 'smarting up' the genre.
Actually.. no it isn't. Certainly the mechanism could have been expanded on. I'm not familiar with how WoW systems matured, but for instance giving the animal different types of food might have given them a stat boost, or made them gain HP but lose speed (or vice versa). That would have enhanced the mechanism and added an additional layer of complexity AND added more character to the RPG. Instead they deleted the system in it's entirety and gave everyone a bonus at all times. Thus making the game... "less complex" and removing another possible tactical layer from the game.
Again... this is a move toward the console gameplay (less complex... more action oriented) and away from the RPG portion of the game (more character-centric and tactical in nature). I think the issue is in the verbiage used as "dumbing down" sounds insulting. I prefer my description used above.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
the devil is in the details.. point is though.. how many 'features' have to be removed, or simplified.. before its classed as 'dumbing down' the 'hunter thing' with pets happiness is relevant though, as it took time for the pet to become loyal etc, it wasnt a case of 'feed me till i smile' though obviously in the short term it would seem that way.. but.. how about the arrows/bullets, which were suddenly no longer necessary.. hunters had to prepare for their 'excursions' and carry enough ammunition to get them through whatever they were doing, there was even special ammunition that did increased damage ( and was crafted by other players!) that you needed for dungeons/raids/pvp etc.. is removing that 'feature' a case of dumbing down.. or not? and this is just hunters.. warlocks had to manage their soulstones, they don't anymore.. because they don't exist.. beyond a relatively meaningless boost ... was that 'smarting up' the genre.. or .. dumbing it down? imo.. its these 'features' that often make the characters feel more real.. removing them.. just detracts from the game itself...
I remember in Asheron's Call magical items you found you couldn't use until you identified it. So I parked my little alt, Tickle, near a dungeon hub city and offered my services in identifying things. Eventually I got a nice reputation for being able to ID things but also for not stealing anything. The great thing about it was that people would tip me for my services. I ended up making more money and meeting more friends by being an IDer than I did exploring or adventuring. Also got to keep quite a few things too people didn't want.
Three things I want to address real quick before I give your questions my best shot:
First, you're using the phrase "dumbed down" in a way that isn't very fitting. When I hear the phrase, I think of a game that is a simpler version of another game, with some of the complexities removed. I wouldn't use it to compare one game to a completely different game, even within the same genre. For example, American checkers and Chinese checkers. Doesn't take a genius to see that the number of permutations in Chinese checkers grows much larger, but I would never call American checkers a dumbed down version. One resembles the other but the rules and goals are just too different; they are two different games. For that reason, I think using a general term like "simpler" is more accurate than saying "dumbed down" when comparing—for example—DAoC to Rift. But using it to describe changes made to a game is okay.
Second, you mention "criticisms that MMORPGs are becoming dumbed down", which implies that dumbing down is commonly a bad thing. I don't think that this is so. Just off the top of my head, if I logged into my bank's website and had the option to log into a complicated page that would help me balance my budget, tell me how much interest I'm earning, let me order a new checkbook, report my debit card as stolen, show me a map with all the ATMs in the area, etc.... I'd almost always rather have a dumbed down page that leaves out all the extra features and lets me see my current balance and recent activity. Likewise, while a highly complex game can be appealing in some ways, substituting a simplified set of rules does not necessarily reduce the fun factor.
And finally, for someone who's trying to write a college paper about pros and cons, you come up with some awfully leading questions. You really make it obvious which side you're on and what answers you would like to receive. In the interest of impartiality, it would have been better if you had asked your questions in a neutral way.
That said, I'll answer to the best of my ability. Many of my answers are related to the trend of having information flow more easily from player to player, both inside and outside of the game. I think this trend is more responsible for how MMOs have changed over time than deliberate simplification.
"Is grinding becoming a more streamlined process? Or is content getting too easy?" By streamlined, I would have to assume you mean that inefficiencies have been removed. But there are activities that people want to do which are wasteful and inefficient (as far as the goal of character progress is concerned), such as exploring and socializing. So the real question is not whether progress now no longer includes wasteful activities, but whether you are able to exclude wasteful activities that you don't enjoy. I think it would be really hard to note a trend here because of differences in preference from player to player and from game to game. But I'd like to note that back in MUD days, it was possible to grind constantly with almost no need to pause for anything. Because fast movement and cheap potions were commonplace, there was no real need to insert even a 5-second pause in your grinding. Contrast this with the common quest hub in a themepark, where you will be interrupted every few minutes by a need to click through some quest dialogue windows even if reading the text is something you don't enjoy.
Ease of content is a totally separate question; it has very little to do with streamlining. The form of difficulty that is common to RPGs is "Can you take this information and make a decision based on it?" The level of difficulty depends on how complex the choice is, how fast you have to respond, how correct your response must be, and the punishment for failure. As far as the first two are concerned, MMORPGs are generally much harder today than ever before. You are given a lot more information and have a more complex choice to make with it. And there is an increasing trend toward twitch gaming which requires a fast response. The third point, margin of error, seems to be more flexible in modern games. You may have the option to choose an unforgiving challenge that allows for no mistakes or something more lenient depending on your preference. The more challenging content might be for a better reward or just bragging rights. The only point where the old games are harder is the fourth point: the consequences. And is that really a good thing when you lack complexity? Oops, you chose wrong... TPK, lose a level, half hour corpse run. Honestly, as much as I like the oldschool tension created by a death penalty hanging over your head, the complexity is more important than the punishment if you must choose between one or the other.
"If game content is being made too easy, do guilds suffer? And is there any point to interacting in such a way anymore? Is team play dead?" Since I don't think games are getting strictly easier, that's difficult to answer. I think that the increased complexity and twitchiness makes it impossible for some players to participate in group content because they're not intelligent enough or their reflexes aren't fast enough. I think that's bad for guilds because it bars many people from participating based on something that they cannot change. But the adjustable margin of error makes it okay. Skilled players can always drop down and do easier, more forgiving content with unskilled friends. It doesn't work the other way around, so having that option is completely a good thing for guilds.
"Does “dumbing down” remove a players motivation to play games? Or does easy and entertaining make for longer play time?" If you try to do something and you fail and fail, that can be either motivating or demotivating. It depends on whether you know why you are failing. If you are failing because the choices are complex and your failures are revealing the flaws in your tactics, that pushes you toward trying harder and learning more. If you are failing for either of the other two reasons (twitch skills or small margin of error), it tends to be a lot more frustrating.
The other way to fail is by not knowing some hidden information. Game designers have moved more toward deeper complexity rather than hidden information, so this doesn't happen as much anymore. They have needed to do this because of how easily modern players share information. It is assumed that players have all the information. The only way to challenge them is to test their knowledge of a complex system rather than testing to see if they have one piece of hidden information, like which route leads directly to the boss.
"Reputation and Renown? Did they ever exist in a MMO world, and do they still?" Sure. Individuals and guilds are still renowned for their accomplishments, top guilds care about server firsts and such. Reputation... that's a tough one. It leads into my response to the next question.
"Are interactions online of any actual importance? Or have any resemblance to that of real life interaction?" At the same time that the playerbase has expanded to include more casual MMO players who may not even see themselves as real "gamers", it has also seen many more people treating the game as though it is SRS BZNS when it truly is not. It's a game. Whatever bad reputation you think should follow someone forever for what he did to this raid or to that guild, it's a game. It's ultimately a conversation about wanting serious and lasting consequences for something bad that a person does in a video game. This is reasonable up to a point, but most inter-/intra-guild drama goes way beyond that point. It seems like this happens more now than it did in the past, but I'm not sure what to blame that on. In most games, the extent to which one player can do in-game harm another player (without breaking TOS) seems to have substantially decreased. There aren't so many Killer archtypes in MMOs ever since developers realized how much more money there was to be made by keeping them out. Perhaps with fewer truly antagonistic players, we've got nothing left to get pissed about other than petty squabblings.
"Is “dumbing down” turning the whole MMO community into item ninjas, cheats, and abusive idiots? Or has the community stayed the same? Or always been…well…idiots?" Again, difficult to answer since I don't believe that MMORPGs have become simpler or easier, only less punishing and optionally more forgiving of errors. What's changed is that there is more communication between players. Forums, fansites and wikis outside of game, server-wide public channels within the game. More opportunities for people who don't take the game world seriously to interact with the people who do: a breeding ground for trolls. You speak of "the whole MMO community" but it should be commonsense that the average player doesn't speak up very much at all. The loudest people are the ones at the extremes. The entire community isn't getting more abusive, but the trolls are trolling louder and the elitists are QQ'ing louder in response.
These are all, of course, my personal opinions based on my MMO experiences.
Is grinding (for levels or gear, i.e. raids) becoming a more streamlined process? Or is content getting too easy?
Yes and yes. Leveling up has become more streamlined in quest-based leveling MMOs as the 'running around' from zone to zone has been reduced. Is this a good thing? Well, as a Process Analyst by trade (efficiency expert), it is my job to flowchart a process and make it as streamlined as possible, thereby reducing cost and manhours. Good for a corporation. Good for a game? I don't think so. In a game it makes leveling and content trivial. I believe when leveling is that quick and easy players fall into the mindset of rushing to max level because, well, it's boring now. As opposed to a game where questing is challenging and leveling is slow, players may 'settle down' and pay more attention to the lore and the npcs because they know they're going to be there for awhile. They may split time leveling between questing and exploring or engaging in PvP, group play, or roleplay. But if you know you can hit max level by following one boring super-easy quest after another for a couple of days, eh, may as well do it and 'get it over with'. As someone who prefers the journey over the rush to endgame type of play, I feel most games nowadays have little to offer me.
If game content is being made too easy, do guilds suffer? And is there any point to interacting in such a way anymore? Is team play dead?
Are you referring to endgame content here in this question? It sounds like you are asking about raids but I am not entirely sure. Well guilds are still necesary for raiding, at least progressive raiding and hardmode. Do we need guilds anymore for group content? Doesn't seem that way. Group content is becoming extinct, or made easy enough that you can come back 2 levels later and solo it. I don't like to see the focus on solo play in MMOs. I believe that's what console gaming is for. MMOs were always about the 'band of adventurers' overcoming great obstacles.
Does “dumbing down” remove a players motivation to play games? Or does easy and entertaining make for longer play time?
I would think this depends on the individual. The Skinner Box shows that humans can be conditioned to keep pushing buttons to get rewards, but that rewarding every push of a button is not as effective. In fact, I think what WoW did right during its Vanilla and TBC phase was make rewards somewhat difficult to achieve, which kept people wanting to play for many hours and many years. Now for example (again my opinion here), I played Rift and felt like everything came easy. There was no struggle to complete any quest. No struggle to attain gear. No struggle to get crafting mats. I just....pushed buttons and got the rewards without challenge. And for that reason I have already cancelled my sub, because I'm not engaged enough and therefore, not entertained.
Reputation and Renown? Did they ever exist in a MMO world, and do they still?
Yes they most certainly did exist. And I believe in MMOs where you cannot cross-faction group up or easily transfer servers/name change, they still exist.
Are interactions online of any actual importance? Or have any resemblance to that of real life interaction?
If you are asking if I believe that getting 'achievements' or server-firsts to level or complete a raid or get the most PvP kills matters in real life, my answer is a resounding no. What value does anything you accomplish in an MMO have in a person's real life? It won't get you a better job, it won't get you a raise, it won't get you a relationship or improve your relationship (it often does the opposite). It won't make your family happy, it won't clean your house, do your shopping, pay your bills, get you elected, etc etc.
Is “dumbing down” turning the whole MMO community into item ninjas, cheats, and abusive idiots? Or has the community stayed the same? Or always been…well…idiots?
I think the MMO community is much more hostile than it used to be, overall. The focus on solo-play enforces an 'every man to himself' kind of attitude. Much like in real life. How would you act if you were completely self-sufficient and needed no one? Well, for an example take a look at the crazy behavior of the spoiled heirs and heiresses of the US. They do whatever they want because they can, for the most part. But the rest of us non-uber rich are far more dependent on others to survive, so we behave a certain way to keep ourselves in good favor. That's how it was in the early days of MMOs as well: when you couldn't solo your way through the entire game you tried to make a good, or at least a neutral reputation for yourself so that others would group with you or take you on their raids. As far as the cheats and ninjas, I think a lot of that may be due to the gold farming business, which is an entirely different issue.
Good luck with your assignment.
MMOs aren't being dumbed down. They're being freed from the bondage that was hardcore masochism.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Feeding pets is very important. The happier a pet is, the more damage it deals:
Happy: 125% damage
Content: 100% damage
Unhappy: 75% damage
well if you play wow and forget to feed your pet,or dont understand to carry food with you,its better to remove this kind of brainless features.
edit:in the past you had to hunt some of the special attacks for pets by yourself,bite6 or something was on blackrock umm spire or something,you had to tame some elite dog or something,anyways it was team instance and someone soloed that ability ,it was epic story how he/she did it,,and these kind of things wont happen again,since theres no way,theres no challenges to do anything like that anymore,because people dont know how to even feed their pets anymore since its "brainless activity"
Generation P
Is grinding (for levels or gear, i.e. raids) becoming a more streamlined process? Or is content getting too easy?
It definately is! I remember when I hit level 85 in Cata and 50 in Rift. My options for doing anything to improve my character was effectively limited to: Heroics/experts, pvp, raid, and in rift's case crafting dailies to get tokens. Suddenly even though I want to play I'm limited into only doing these things to get better.
If game content is being made too easy, do guilds suffer? Yeah, I think so. WOTLK's easy peasy dungeon system and raid system showed me having a guild was useless when I could pug my way through all content. Granted that was kinda fixed come cata, but I didn't see a point to be in a guild beyond the social aspect.
And is there any point to interacting in such a way anymore? Is team play dead? Team play is best reflected with long term goals that are tangible in some way. Looking at games like EVE, Lineage and similar games where you need to capture and told territory. Team play is essential! Otherwise, you can just get four 'NPCs' from the dungeon finder system and run yourself an instance.
Does “dumbing down” remove a players motivation to play games? Simple games are for simple people. Sometimes I want to go mindless pvp bashing, sometimes I want to go build something long term (like gain territory). If I don't feel the accomplishment in doing it, I might not be motivated to try or continue trying. I'll simply do it once and say "Well, that was interesting. But I beat it now, so, lets go do something else."
Or does easy and entertaining make for longer play time? Easy games don't hold interest over long periods of time. That being said I don't want to have Ninja Gaiden hardmode difficulty on everything I do either.
Reputation and Renown? Did they ever exist in a MMO world, and do they still? Yeah, they did. But with the coming of character transfers, race change and all that jazz it means less. I personally believe the next step of mmo's is to move to a single shard, single character stage where any and all of your choices stay with you as long as people remember them.
Are interactions online of any actual importance? Or have any resemblance to that of real life interaction? People who annoy me, or 'suck' don't get my time. You'd be surprised how many times I've struck up conversations with people in game talking about books or sports, really it's just a big chat room with the game being an underlying common ground.
Is “dumbing down” turning the whole MMO community into item ninjas, cheats, and abusive idiots? Or has the community stayed the same? Or always been…well…idiots?
Problematic people will always be around. But I think that the problem comes from the MMO company being more afraid of the player, than the player is afraid of the MMO company. Rules and policies must be clearly stated, and ruthlessly enforced to a point. Otherwise the community should be given the tools to police themselves. (Allow players to post warnings on players for ninjas, player bounties, trolling, vote based AFK Kick in BGs, etc.)
Themepark MMOs aren't being dumbed down. They're being freed from the bondage that was hardcore masochism artificially added for the sake of the illusion of being an MMORPG. An illusion that allows them to charge extra, and then implement things like lock-out timers on content and fight wars against gold farmers with absurd rules. And call it a FREE content update lol.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Wrong.
In FFXI, I did not run into town and see a series of NPCs with ! conveniently hanging over their heads indicating 'Hey I have a quest!". I had to talk to NPCs, see what they had to say and, in fact, may already know something about them based on information given to me in previous interactions with them, or perhaps previous tasks I'd completed for them. That alone provides more immersion in the world. These NPCs are actual residents of the world.. not conveniently placed quest dispensers. That aspect along renders the game's world far more interesting and immersive than one where you enter a town to a sea of yellow ! or quills or books or what-have-you hanging over a dozen NPCs' heads.
And it doesn't stop with how they're presented...
In FFXI, for example, when talking to a NPC, I had to pay attention to what they said, keep in mind any clues or information they gave in order to figure out what I needed to do, who I needed to talk to next or where I needed to go. There were no convenient markers placed on my mini-map or world map pin-pointing the exact spot. There were no arrows showing me which way to go to reach the next objective. I had to work that out on my own. There was no arrow pointing the way to the location. The quest item (if there was one to retrieve) was not glowing or giving off sparkles that I could see from 100 feet away. Completing the goal was left entirely up to me to figure out and carry through on.
I had to actually use my brain, work with the clues given and *quest* for the given goal...
If you don't think that's more engaging and interesting than the way newer MMOs spell everything out for you, show you exactly where to go, highlight exactly what you need to get and leave you to do little more than go through the motions... then there's nothing more for us to discuss on this topic.
In FFXI, many of the quests - especially the larger ones - required an understanding of the enemies you'd be encountering and, in fact, a lot of them brought you into areas far too dangerous to survive at your level - even with a party. Getting in, completing the quest and getting out in one piece was *definitely* more involved and far more challenging than the way newer MMOs are setup. You tried pulling the careless, stupid and sloppy crap people pull in most newer MMOs in FFXI or others from that period, and you'd be in a world of hurt. Being careless or stupid carries a high price in those games... so people tended to avoid being careless or stupid. That provided for an experience that was more strategic, more engaging and more interesting than the "Fail your way to success! Everyone's a winner! Even the losers!" approach typically used in many mainstream MMOs these days.
In newer MMOs you can literally just keep failing your way through something 'til you succeed. Run in, kill what you can.... die.... res... go back... run in... kill what you can... die... res... go back in... ad nauseum. Eventually.. "Hey! We completed the quest! We rock this game!" That is not challenging. That is definitely dumbed down.
Understanding the environment, understanding the enemies you were dealing with and being able to figure things out - often on the fly - was critical in several of those older MMOs. That is far more engaging, far more challenging and far more interesting than what is on offer in most mainstream MMOs today.
In newer, mainstream MMOs, if the game leaves anything for the player to figure out on their own at all, it's so obvious you'd have to literally not be trying, at all, to figure it out. That's not challenging. That's not engaging. That is definitely dumbed down.
There are myriad other examples I could give. But I believe my point has been made.
And no, "well there are online walkthroughs, so it wasn't that difficult" is not a counter-argument - just in case anyone was planning on using it. Online walkthroughs are optional, they are not required. I seldom ever used them, unless I had genuinely made the effort to solve it myself and was at a loss. The point is, I had to go out of game to get that info. It wasn't dropped right in front of my face by the game itself.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
To Elidien's point, how is this harder to play? Getting to know womehting about NPC quest-givers, with or without and "!" over their head, doesn't make any game harder to play.
Gaming since Avalon Hill was making board games.
Played SWG, EVE, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, Rift, Vanguard, WoW, SWTOR, TSW, Tera
Tried Aoc, Aion, EQII, RoM, Vindictus, Darkfail, DDO, GW, PotBS
LOL.. lockout timers? I think you are arguing the wrong case... I don't think "lockout timers" are a core part of any argument I have heard before...
Anyhow, I will simply once again point out that the original iterations of MMORPGs were created by guys that had grown up playing computer games and/or PnP RPGs. They played the actual Ultima series on their Apple/C64/PC (we can even go futher back to the 70s). They played games like the GoldBox DnD games from SSI. They played The Bards Tale or Fallout. They were making the games for folks like themselves.
Today's MMOs are made (more and more) to cater to the console generation. This is a generation that enjoys reduced complexity and increased pace of action. They come from a background of Halo, God of War, or Call of Duty. This playstyle stresses "player skills" as opposed to "character skills". Everything that can be done in these games can be quickly accomplished by use of a control pad.
What will eventually happen is that the games will evolve far enough from their roots to become a separate genre.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
well i guess if mmos suck so bad then u can allways play something simple ... like chess. It is always this same thing "when i was a kid i had to walk 5 miles uphil to school in 3 feet of snow, and the same going home. please, it does not help. things appere to change but really dont. people cripe becouse they like to, it was the same way in 1975 when i started to play DnD, the white box 3 booklet version, the ADnD came out and the same happoned. It is not new.
After some thought, I think saying 'dumbed down' isnt quite right. At its heart MMOs have never been difficult and while there are some differences now in playing (EQ could argue 5 class focus...tank, healer, dps, buff/debuff and control...u dont see much of the later two anymore except as auxiliary to a function of the first 3) it does simplify things and it is most definately a loss, but I wouldnt necessarily call a game that doesnt have those functions 'dumber'. Mostly the idea of easy comes from people dont die and get frustrated as much, so hey its easy.
What I think is the biggest issue to hit MMOs is that of consequence does'nt really exist in game anymore. It appears to me the majority now days believes since they pay money for a game they dont deserve any 'penalty' for failure. And lack of penalty means has resulted in a loss of patience in general. Games are now rush for this or and no time for anything else so why develop it? Once the rush to 'finish' is done there is nothing left and boredom sets in. Who cares what a dungeon looks like, lets run through it? Story line?...takes too long to read it /skip. Oh man that guys dps is down its going to take 5 more mins to kill the boss /drop. Chat, help, explain, be nice? wtf just finish the dungeon. See the world? heck no, teleport. CC? isnt that AoE tanking? much faster kill them all at once, need to do 5 more dungeons today. Push 5 buttons, no way...macro. And on and on.
In EQ no matter what anyone now days will tell you, it absolutely sucked to die. A good day would be turned sour in a swift moment of someone making a mistake. Hours of play down the tubes, nobody liked it.
But that consequence had a very drastic efffect on the player population, that when it got removed produced a drastic change in players and player base, not truly anticipated I think.
With the death penalty came caution, care, patience, planning, coordinate play, group and guild foundations, general consideration (always there have been griefers), a willingness to work for a payday, kindness, aid, etc...And to all those one can add a topper, a very profound sense of accomplishment at every level that gave EQ the name 'evercrack'. All side benefits of 'I dont want to die'. Mind you I dont claim that doesnt exist to day, but I do believe its no longer the majority but the minority...who might be old timers like me who remember ;p
And death wasnt the only consequence but other 'speed/efficiency functions' resulted in other loss of consequences that also impacted the enviroment. Fast travel and ease of travel access cut down on bartering and of course player interaction. Auction houses removed the need to play in the game and talk with people to buy/sell. With encumberance gone money hoarding became vialble and reduced the need to go to town and interact. The mailbox removed the need to talk with folks to trade between characters and also removed a way to build trust between players and friendships.
The list goes on, but ultimately in a game where there isnt any consequence, especially in one that is suppose to represent a real and vibrant world, then there is a lack of many things. Good things and bad but I think the current 'dumbing' down attitude is the feeling of the loss of the good things, an empty world, empty game where nameless people flow in out only to disappear once the 'rush' is over.
It is rather interesting from a human perspective though...what would the real world be like if there were not any consequences...from looking at the online game world, I dont think mankind can handle that.