Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Helloooo... where is everybody? <.< >.> <.<

135

Comments

  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,605

    Originally posted by Troneas

    here is the most comprehensive compilation of DCUO issues and insights on them in the web:

     

    http://www.mmofringe.com/forum/37-dc-universe-online/3971-dcuo-bugs-cheats-and-pvp-hacks

     

     

    only chris cao and smedley would remain convinced that this game is worth playing after going through that material. 

    Wow... those exploits are like 8 times worse than what I expected...

    As for the reviewers giving abnormally high ratings for games that people flee from, screaming in a month, I do believe they are sincere in their enjoyment of the game.  I don't subscribe to any "bite the hand that feeds you" conspiracies regarding it, because for one, such a conspiracy isn't necessary.

    It just seems to me that reviewers are looking at the game from the same perspective that you would a single player game.  "Is this game enjoyable to me, NOW?" is NOT a very good question to answer in an MMO review, or at least it's not enough.  Some speculation is necessary.  Now, that may seem like a "non-journalistic" thing to do, but just as was said, reviews are not FACT.  They are OPINION, and speculation should be part of that opinion.  There should never be an MMO review in which the reviewer doesn't ask themselves in earnest, "Would I enjoy this game 3 months from now?  6 months from now?  If a developer churns out content at the rate that most developers do, will it be enough?"  Most adult-minded people know that if a reviewer says, "Hey, I dig this game now, but content is going quick, and I don't see myself repeating this same content over and over again for months and sustaining that enjoyment.", that what they're doing is speculating.  And yes, people will attack them if they do, exactly as they're attacked since they didn't.

    IMO, if MMO reviewers earnestly asked that question of themselves when reviewing this game, I think their answer would be, "no".  And for an MMO, that question carries a HUGE amount of weight.  Yet, I look at the bullet points in the review, nowhere do I see the 800 pound con-gorilla in the room:

    an unprecedented lack of content.

    I just find it surprising that that didn't carry enough weight in this review to even get a "con" bullet point of its own.

    Yes, the bugs are horrible.  But those bugs can be fixed alot quicker than you can add another 100 hours of content, particularly considering that in 4 years they only managed 30 hours.

    DCUO:  Death by a thousand fatal stab wounds.

  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,605

    Originally posted by Ryukan

    This just goes to show that MMO's should not be reviewed at all until after the first month at least. Played this game on a buddy key and it got old after a week of moderate playing. Never did I feel this game warranted a 8 out of 10...felt more like 6/10.

    If a reviewer feels that they can't accurately speculate whether they can see themselves enjoying the game in 3-6-12 months time, then I fear you're right.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 24,220

    The ones who knew how to chat have all gone back to Champions Online, where they are now spamming Millennium City zone chat with something or other about Grond.

    Actually, I'm curious.  Do you have a decent way to gauge the number of players online concurrently in DCUO?

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 11,587

    Originally posted by Daffid011

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Daffi,  you have to take into consideration that, at the time of the review,  its very likely that these were the only problems being experienced at the time.  Launch went fairly well,  but with each subsequent patch things did decline rather rapidly.

     

    Honestly though my feeling is that, the population currently isn't indicative of how much fun a game is.  I had more fun in DCUO than I've had in most MMOs I've played in the past few years.  The game did its job very well,  it entertained me, and it did so far greater than the cost I spent to play it.   In the end,  I stopped simply because I couldn't be called an exploiter on one hand, and then get beaten by exploiters on the other.  It turned into a volatile spiral,  and I believe that is one of the main reasons on why the community dwindled.  

     

    My (beta) review was very similar to this one... and though they rated it just a notch higher in comparison to what I would have,  I stand firm that DCUO is a GREAT GAME.  Not everyone has to like it,  but that doesnt' mean that we shouldn't like it either because others don't.  I wouldn't ask the writers to score the game based on others opinions. 

    What was not being discussed in beta/pre-release that is going on now?  The problems have not changed, they just got more widespread or patches made already existing problems a little worse.  It isn't like these problems are new revelations that were easy to miss. 

    How great can a game be if you and almost everyone else has already quit?    This isn't some single player console game that people play for 25 hours and then trade in for the next new release.  It is an mmo built on one of the largest, oldest and most diverse properties in... well almost anything that could be made into a game.

    The game is crippled by poor designs, bad programming and premature almost everything, but somehow that is what qualifies as "great"?  That is doing its job well?

     

    I don't want to speak for everyone, but I don't think it is a stretch to assume that most people reading a reveiw that scores a 8 out of 10 will expect to find a well polished game that has pretty damn solid gameplay.  I don't think they assume the writer(s) enjoyment of a few things outweights all the other problems in the game or that 30 days and out is GREAT! gameplay. 

     

    The problems did change.  In fact the entire power structure of a few sets changed between beta and launch,  including the execution of certain abilities which was compounded on by the way clipping was allowed pre and post beta.  Sure there were more issues in beta,  but on release and even within the first two weeks you have relatively low exploits,  and as many beta players went over to the live game and knew about the issues in beta,  I think its fair to say these problems weren't prevalent the first few weeks until balancing came underway,  and lest we not forget the first patch was pretty heavy and flaw-filled.

     

    How great can a game be if "everyone" has already quit?  Thats kind of a silly statement.  How great must WoW be because "everyone" is playing it?   Its kind of a backwards argument there, popularity does not always a great game make.

     

    I'm sorry Daffi,  but if a game is fun,  then I'd rate it with a high score.  If I enjoy playing it,  I'd rate it highly.  I'm sorry if some people feel a game needs to keep your attention for 6 months for it to receive a good score,  or be predominantly bug free to see the value it has ,  but thats not me.    Enjoyment of playing the game is truly all that matters, and if you stopped to think about what that really means,  you'd agree with their score.

     

    You can test this kind of reasoning with many SWG veterans,  ask them about their experiences and see if they don't swear how great SWG was back then,  yet the population was dwindling there too. (no it didn't always have 300K subs).  If you would ask those players what they would have rated a game that was buggy, incomplete, managed extremely poorly, and kicked out the door too fast,  I'm sure you'd be surprised by the score you would have gotten.   

     

    For 8 of 10, when they login the gameplay is something they will find as solid,  AND fun,  AND engaging.   The storylines are very entertaining,  the PvP (when working properly) is mechanically second to none, the worlds are large, explorable, and enjoyable to move around in.    Its a fun game, completely playable in all aspects, and time spent playing was more enjoyable than not.  Why does it need to be more than that to receive a score of 8?   Because someone who doesn't like the game says so?  I'd much rather believe the guy with the positive outlook that enjoyed the game.   

     

    It seems cynical reviews are the only ones that seem to be the only ones that get respect around here.  Seeing the good things in games like this,  and enjoying them for exactly what they are and not all the things they aren't is one of the reasons I come to this site.  I've taken all the good DCUO reviews with the bad,  and after most of what I've read at least I can say,  good or bad,  at least Bill outlined the game well.



  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by BillMurphy

    @Daffid: <<snip>> But what you're basically asking us at MMORPG.com to do is change a review because you don't agree with it, and because you think there's enough evidence that others feel the same way. The review of DCUO is one person's opinion of the game: my own.

    <<snip>>

    I mean, really, what are you asking of us?

    No, I am not asking your to charge your review anymore than you claimed I don't understand these are your opinions.  Simply put I am discussing the reviews, what I felt was overlooked/missed and how far away from the reality of the situation they are.

    Don't feel you have to change anything, but also don't be so surprised that people don't agree with you.  If your reviews are generating so many counter opinions that upset you or call your/the sites credibility into question then perhaps the disconnect isn't on the readers end.  

    In the end it is your name that is signed to the near perfect review of a game that is crashing and burning. 

     

    I felt the same way about SWG that you do about DCU, but never in my wildest dreams could I look at someone else and tell them it was an 8/10 with all the bugs, crashes, terrible UI, lack of content, rushed release, etc.  It just wouldn't be an honest thing for me to do just because I enjoyed the game despite its problems.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    How great can a game be if "everyone" has already quit?  Thats kind of a silly statement.  How great must WoW be because "everyone" is playing it?   Its kind of a backwards argument there, popularity does not always a great game make.

     

    I'm sorry Daffi,  but if a game is fun,  then I'd rate it with a high score.  If I enjoy playing it,  I'd rate it highly.  I'm sorry if some people feel a game needs to keep your attention for 6 months for it to receive a good score,  or be predominantly bug free to see the value it has ,  but thats not me.    Enjoyment of playing the game is truly all that matters, and if you stopped to think about what that really means,  you'd agree with their score.

    .

    Yes when given the choice between paying the exact same fee for something people will generally chose the one they consider better.  Yes in some theoretical way popularity doesn't mean great and steep player decline doesn't mean something is poor, but come on.  If DCU was an 8/10 game people would be flocking to it, not mass cancelling. 

    A SMALL portion of the players might enjoy it for 8/10, but come on.   Even the biggest supporters of the game, including yourself, have or are leaving.   A decline of somewhere around 80% isn't doing a great job.   It isn't like the first live patch was the only one that caused more problems in the game than it fixed.  Again, things that already happened, but discounted.

     

    I most certainly do not agree with the review and I have thought about it.  You claim the game is so great and that is all that matters, but you quit in frustration after several attempts.  What does that say for your theory?   Several times you have said that you would be playing if things worked right!  So no I don't agree with 8/10, especially when the problems that were begin ignored are the very same reason you quit. 

     

     

     

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 11,587

    Originally posted by Daffid011

    Originally posted by maskedweasel



    How great can a game be if "everyone" has already quit?  Thats kind of a silly statement.  How great must WoW be because "everyone" is playing it?   Its kind of a backwards argument there, popularity does not always a great game make.

     

    I'm sorry Daffi,  but if a game is fun,  then I'd rate it with a high score.  If I enjoy playing it,  I'd rate it highly.  I'm sorry if some people feel a game needs to keep your attention for 6 months for it to receive a good score,  or be predominantly bug free to see the value it has ,  but thats not me.    Enjoyment of playing the game is truly all that matters, and if you stopped to think about what that really means,  you'd agree with their score.

    .

    Yes when given the choice between paying the exact same fee for something people will generally chose the one they consider better.  Yes in some theoretical way popularity doesn't mean great and steep player decline doesn't mean something is poor, but come on.  If DCU was an 8/10 game people would be flocking to it, not mass cancelling. 

    A SMALL portion of the players might enjoy it for 8/10, but come on.   Even the biggest supporters of the game, including yourself, have or are leaving.   A decline of somewhere around 80% isn't doing a great job.   It isn't like the first live patch was the only one that caused more problems in the game than it fixed.  Again, things that already happened, but discounted.

     

    I most certainly do not agree with the review and I have thought about it.  You claim the game is so great and that is all that matters, but you quit in frustration after several attempts.  What does that say for your theory?   Several times you have said that you would be playing if things worked right!  So no I don't agree with 8/10, especially when the problems that were begin ignored are the very same reason you quit. 

     

     

     

     

    I think you misunderstand too much here,  I quit the game yet I'd STILL give it my original score of 7.5  (or in the case of this review, an 8)  of 10.  I love the game.  I had fun playing it,  it was worth my money.  

     

    Perhaps its just you that has a hard time trying to understand that these scores are subjective.  People are leaving,  but how many are leaving that are disappointed?  How many are leaving and will never come back?  Neither of us know that answer,  and the answer isn't important.  What is important is,  if and when they do come back,  will they enjoy their time?

     

    Maybe the snapshot of MMOs is too small for you to really grasp this,  but look at every gaming genre and the reviews of said games.  Some games last 8 hours,  some last 60+ hours,  some last 40 hours with DLC packs..  and if you take into consideration the time people spent playing in comparison to the money they spent,  a game with only 8 - 10 hours of content might not seem worthy of a score of 8 or higher,  but time spent playing is much less important than the enjoyment of that time played.

     

    Again, I akin this to SWG,  and I say this so often,  that,  if I knew what would happen to it when they released the NGE, thereby making me lose interest from that point forward,  would I still have played the game while I could?  Yes I would have.  Would you have?   Knowing what the game turned out like for DCUO,  would I have not bought the game if I knew PvP would be so imbalanced and broken when I left a week and a half ago?  I think we know the answer to that one too,  and I don't regret my purchases or monthly time spent on either of those games,  nor will I regret my money spent when I resub in the near future.

     

    Lets reminisce of a score long past from another well known site.  You may not have given it this score,  but as stated, so many others would have.   http://pc.ign.com/articles/428/428431p3.html   



  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,605

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

     

    How great can a game be if "everyone" has already quit?  Thats kind of a silly statement.  How great must WoW be because "everyone" is playing it?   Its kind of a backwards argument there, popularity does not always a great game make.

     

    While I'd normally agree, I don't think that statement applies to something that people have TRIED and then left.  If a game is not highly promoted and pushed, and gets modest/poor sales, but those people STAY, then yes, I think that's a fair and accurate statement.

    But that's not what happened, here.  The game was pretty heavily promoted, they got pretty good box sales, lot's of people played it and are now leaving at a pretty brisk pace.  That's evidence of a poor game, at least in regard to content, or "whatever that thing is that keeps people subbed to an MMO".

    If you can't use that as evidence that a game is heavily flawed, they you really can't use ANYTHING.

  • SpytedSpyted Member Posts: 108

    The simple fact is that people here want an invented article to re review DCUO in line with THEIR opinion of the game...its total ignorant intransigence in denying anyone a right to their own opinion that perpetuates this idea. In the end pretty much every review of DCUO pointed to the fun they had DESPITE the problems...this is still the point - its not some objective and totally unbiassed system its a personal impression of the game as a whole that is assessed - often individual scores are not mirroed in the overall mark because how a game makes you feel is not so easy to pin down.

    A game can be faultless, bug free and filled to the brim with content but if it is all dreary stuff we have seen many times before the overall impression will be a poor one.

    Conversely a bug ridden glitchy game can shine by virtue of what it does right and/or the creativity and originality in things it does differently - these are apsects to applaud and promote and they can outweight individual problems - in any combination.

    Its totally unfair to criticise or call out someone for their opinion when they are open and honest and call it just what it is...conversely there are those here concietedly citing their opinion as sopme kind of provable fact unless they tunr out to be God of some variety they really don't deserve a moments respect.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    I think you misunderstand too much here,  I quit the game yet I'd STILL give it my original score of 7.5  (or in the case of this review, an 8)  of 10.  I love the game.  I had fun playing it,  it was worth my money.  

     

    Perhaps its just you that has a hard time trying to understand that these scores are subjective.  People are leaving,  but how many are leaving that are disappointed?  How many are leaving and will never come back?  Neither of us know that answer,  and the answer isn't important.  What is important is,  if and when they do come back,  will they enjoy their time?

      

    No no and no. I do understand that the reviews are subjective.  I do understand you STILL would give the game high scores.  Just because I don't agree with your views doesn't mean I don't understand.

    Lets stop playing word games ok?  People are not leaving DCU, because they think it is a great game and have gotten their monies worth.  It doesn't matter what happens in other types of games, mmos have certain expectations and all that matters is what people expected of DCU.  Judging by the rate of decline people are not finding those expectations met. 

    While no one can know what every single person leaving DCU feels, it is pretty damn clear that the bulk of those leaving are not happy.  They might have bought into the initial shine of flashy combat or whatever, but just like you they left because of problems with the game.  Who care what MIGHT happen in the future? How does that compare to what is happening NOW.

     

    Great that you enjoyed the game.  It doesn't change the fact that the problems drove you and many others away.  Many of the same problems that were being discussed before the games release. 

    I just can't think of what possible scenario a game that has such massive problems it drives away roughly 80% of its players in the first month or so deserves a near perfect score. 

  • SpytedSpyted Member Posts: 108

    Originally posted by therain93

    Originally posted by Spyted


    Originally posted by Yamota


    Originally posted by therain93


     

    I don't believe that SOE has made back $50 million in box sales, sorry.  Even if we're generous and say that SOE sold 1 million boxes, they only get a small portion of revenue from retail sales (at least boxes, which is a good portion of PC and all of the ps3), not the entire $30-$40-$50-$60 that gets charged to the customer.

    Also, why are we rehashing parts of these conversations? We've gone over the litany of bad design decisions, bugs, and lack of content ad nauseum.  On the flip side, I do like the OP's question of why the press isn't talking about this more.  Where is Bill, since he was so gung-ho on the game?  Moved on to the next game already, too?

    Yeah I have asked that before as well. As mmorpg.com was so positive about this game, where are their articles now that the servers are barren?

     Simply a case of dammed if you do dammed if you don't, if an article arrived saying how much fun they were still having playing DCUO they the same few people would leap in and criticise the writer for being biassed or on the payroll. Indeed we have already seen such responses, not just here but also over on IGN when they admitted they were still playing, analyse this very post and the core is contradictory - why talk over old stuff, then why aren't the press talking over more old stuff etc.

    The internet, by its nature, is excessively contentious, people give less respect or consideration to others by virtue of the diminished responsibility and anonimity it brings - here we see some presumed 'success is suddenly equatable to quality', its facically stupid and invalid as any simple example can be offered to the contrary but backed by assumed nd made up facts it can sound incredibly persuasive....or can it ^^

    Your response is disappointing, yet not surprising.

    I'm in agreement that if  mmorpg.com did put out another article saying how "much fun they were having", they would be slammed.  We don't need another rah-rah-shish-boom-bah statement -- we want honesty and a reality check.  Rather than hide behind "damned if you do, damned if you don't", why not ask the "press" to stand up for their statements?  Some of us posters in the community had identified issues with the game and why they're problematic; it's not worthwhile for "us" to talk about it again and again.  What we're looking to read about is what the "press", the seemingly Yes-men, have not talked about yet.

    The sad thing is, if the "press" had actually tried to hold SOE accountable by calling out these issues, maybe, just maybe so many people would not have DCUO coasters right now.

    And your response is a perfect example of the problem "We don't need another rah-rah-shish-boom-bah statement -- we want honesty and a reality check." You aren't interested in their opnion at all UNLESS it happens to coincide with your own - reality isn't your subjective province.....yet that is literally what you are saying here, they stood up for what they percieved as a fair representation of the rating and placed it on the website, they rated the experience as a whole after seeing the same game and build you did. You don't want them spewing articles out if there is nothing to say, and little has changed....they have obliged.

    As and when and they re-review it - usually after 6 months as far as I can tell you might be happy to see it drop, but they are quite entitled to lift the score as much as decrease it - opinions are not facts, not theirs, not mine not yours and its doing disservice to the vast majority of players to presume they brought the game soley on the info from one review, life just ain't that simple or superficial.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 11,587

    Originally posted by Daffid011

    Originally posted by maskedweasel



    I think you misunderstand too much here,  I quit the game yet I'd STILL give it my original score of 7.5  (or in the case of this review, an 8)  of 10.  I love the game.  I had fun playing it,  it was worth my money.  

     

    Perhaps its just you that has a hard time trying to understand that these scores are subjective.  People are leaving,  but how many are leaving that are disappointed?  How many are leaving and will never come back?  Neither of us know that answer,  and the answer isn't important.  What is important is,  if and when they do come back,  will they enjoy their time?

      

    No no and no. I do understand that the reviews are subjective.  I do understand you STILL would give the game high scores.  Just because I don't agree with your views doesn't mean I don't understand.

    Lets stop playing word games ok?  People are not leaving DCU, because they think it is a great game and have gotten their monies worth.  It doesn't matter what happens in other types of games, mmos have certain expectations and all that matters is what people expected of DCU.  Judging by the rate of decline people are not finding those expectations met. 

    While no one can know what every single person leaving DCU feels, it is pretty damn clear that the bulk of those leaving are not happy.  They might have bought into the initial shine of flashy combat or whatever, but just like you they left because of problems with the game.  Who care what MIGHT happen in the future? How does that compare to what is happening NOW.

     

    Great that you enjoyed the game.  It doesn't change the fact that the problems drove you and many others away.  Many of the same problems that were being discussed before the games release. 

    I just can't think of what possible scenario a game that has such massive problems it drives away roughly 80% of its players in the first month or so deserves a near perfect score. 

     

    Thats exactly right,  you can't think of the scenario, eventhough its been told to you. And you can't accept that scenario.  You couldn't accept the game either, nor did you like it to begin with.  Everything pertaining to the game wasn't good enough for you,  but we aren't YOU.  YOU might not score something one way,  well,  as in the rest of my post that you removed,  others have different opinions.  You could easily just agree to disagree instead of trying to prove that you were somehow right,  but in the end, the score should stand,  as well as all the other scores some of which were better than an 8 of 10 mind you.

     

    People left, whether it be content or exploiting or another release,  some people left, and others have stayed.  Will players come back?   I have a feeling many players will come back.  On the other side of the story, the PS3 version still seems to be doing rather well in comparison,  as the majority of problems were on the PC version.  Looking at it from both angles,  the game could still be doing extremely well based on the numbers still in game, and the only ones who would know would be SOE.

     

    Just because people stop playing a game doesn't have to mean the game is bad.  All it has to mean is that they don't want to play it at that time.  I know the community here thrives on doom and gloom, but this game still has a long life ahead of it,  and I don't see a drop off of players after 3 months mean there can't be a resurgence in 6 months with the right content update.



  • AisinAisin Member Posts: 17

    Just my 2 cents...

     

    I played in the beta.  At first, I loved it.  I told several friends that I thought SOE had actually redeemed themselves with DC.  I really loved playing it for the first week or so.  After the first week though, I started becoming very bored with it.  I spent most of my time after the first week just making new toons to try out different combinations.  The game got old fast and I ended up canceling my pre-order.

     

    Smed and Cao to an extent butchered SWG and now they have done it again with DC .. another big name IP that should have flourished. 

     

    Why am  not suprised?  Seriously why do they keep people at SOE like Cao?  He is the man thought pink flying ewoks was starwarys

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Originally posted by Daffid011I just can't think of what possible scenario a game that has such massive problems it drives away roughly 80% of its players in the first month or so deserves a near perfect score. 

     

    Thats exactly right,  you can't think of the scenario, eventhough its been told to you. And you can't accept that scenario.  You couldn't accept the game either, nor did you like it to begin with.  Everything pertaining to the game wasn't good enough for you,  but we aren't YOU.  YOU might not score something one way,  well,  as in the rest of my post that you removed,  others have different opinions.  You could easily just agree to disagree instead of trying to prove that you were somehow right,  but in the end, the score should stand,  as well as all the other scores some of which were better than an 8 of 10 mind you.

     

    People left, whether it be content or exploiting or another release,  some people left, and others have stayed.  Will players come back?   I have a feeling many players will come back.  On the other side of the story, the PS3 version still seems to be doing rather well in comparison,  as the majority of problems were on the PC version.  Looking at it from both angles,  the game could still be doing extremely well based on the numbers still in game, and the only ones who would know would be SOE.

     

    Just because people stop playing a game doesn't have to mean the game is bad.  All it has to mean is that they don't want to play it at that time.  I know the community here thrives on doom and gloom, but this game still has a long life ahead of it,  and I don't see a drop off of players after 3 months mean there can't be a resurgence in 6 months with the right content update.

    Will you even listen to what you are saying?  Just because a game suffers massive crippling population dropoff it doesn't mean it is bad?  Players still might come back?  Bark about doom and gloomers all you want, but that is the reality of the situation that you just don't seem to be able to deal with.  Name me a game where players came back after a mass exodus that didn't involve a major revenue model change.

    Not only does it not happen, but add on top of that soe's ongoing lack of ability to deliver patches on time and then just make the problems worse.  I have no idea what could possibly make you think this dream scenario or yours could happen.   In a world of infinite possibilities, sure, but there is just no plausible reason to think any of that would ever happen.  DCU will limp along for a number of years, but soe missed their chance to make this game take off.

    You can try pointing fingers at me for thinking the "nothing" in the game was good enough, but for all your crowing it seems there wasn't enough good in the game for you to stay either and you are one of the biggest supporters.  You faced down all the criticisms of the game early on.  You even went so far as to say the game wasn't the problem, it was people just not getting it.  Yet you too are gone as a result of the problems.  You talked about all the massive awesome gameplay and the huge potential of the game.  You are not returning, because the game isn't good enough. 

    If I scored a game 8/10 and my friends asked me if I think they should play it, I would say yes in a heartbeat.  Will you recommend DCU to your friends right now?  A game you stopped playing due to the problems and your lack of faith in the company to resolve those problems? 

     

    Somewhere these 8/10 near pefect game scores missed, ignored or whatever problems that are so frequent and massive that it has chased away upwards of 90% of the game population.  A professional game sites review like this should be able to properly cover issues that its reader base might and obviously did find important.  Especially important enough to quit over.  Especially important enough for that readerbase to question the integrity of the reviews.  Especially when the problems were being pointed out before the review came.  That should not happen and slapping the "well its just an opinion" doesn't really cut it.

    On one hand they get upset at being called glorified bloggers, but then they justify their scores by claiming them as opinion pieces and saying they are not writing things for their audience.  That is a very mixed message being sent.  People come to sites like this to read reviews for unbiased information on games.  People don't come here, because they want to find out what games Bill Murphy likes.  They want to find information on a game and make buying decisions on that information. 

     

    Again, there is nothing wrong with loving a game that has big issues, but that love should not blind a review to such massive and serious pitfalls. 

  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465

    Originally posted by Daffid011

    <Snip>

    On one hand they get upset at being called glorified bloggers, but then they justify their scores by claiming them as opinion pieces and saying they are not writing things for their audience.  That is a very mixed message being sent.  People come to sites like this to read reviews for unbiased information on games.  People don't come here, because they want to find out what games Bill Murphy likes.  They want to find information on a game and make buying decisions on that information. 

     Again, there is nothing wrong with loving a game that has big issues, but that love should not blind a review to such massive and serious pitfalls. 

    The part in red is the key one for me.

    I have totally given up on all the reivews and features for this site, because of the abject lack objectivity when it comes to the failings of several of the latest reviewed games. It's fine to like the game, despite the flaws, but it does a serious disservice to the readers to totally omit them or gloss over them.

    I have to agree that 8/10 for DCUO is unwarranted when you consider the negatives. That the UI and Chat are lousy is not a small issue in a MMO.

    The other issue I take with one of Bill's responses is that he rates every MMO "subjectively". Well, that's nice and all, but when each game has an ongoing $15/mo sub fee, the "value" of that game gets to legitimately become an issue. As does comparing them. Rift beats the hell out of DCUO on the basis of being an MMO, as bill stated, so it is a "fair" comment to say Rift is a better value when compared to DCUO, ditto for STO. If the features are not there, that should fairly be held against certain games, because other games for the same price, have them.

    No game can or should be rated totally "subjectively" because these games do not exist in a vacuum.

    For myself, I no longer give a fig about any reveiw here, when they are so subjective as to be useless in making the "should I buy or not" decision. I look at metacritic instead. And read the forums.

    Everything else here, fluff.

  • AralithAralith Member UncommonPosts: 12

    The clunky interface breaks the game for me. Coming from other PC MMOs , the UI is seriously in need of a face lift. It might be fine for console users but the PC version needs to be more than just a port of the console. 

    I like the game play, I enjoyed grouping when I was able but there was almost no conversation going on. If people are finding it to difficult to communicate and cooperate, then they will play it like a single player game, get max level and move on.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 11,587

    Originally posted by Daffid011

     

    Will you even listen to what you are saying?  Just because a game suffers massive crippling population dropoff it doesn't mean it is bad?  Players still might come back?  Bark about doom and gloomers all you want, but that is the reality of the situation that you just don't seem to be able to deal with.  Name me a game where players came back after a mass exodus that didn't involve a major revenue model change.

    Not only does it not happen, but add on top of that soe's ongoing lack of ability to deliver patches on time and then just make the problems worse.  I have no idea what could possibly make you think this dream scenario or yours could happen.   In a world of infinite possibilities, sure, but there is just no plausible reason to think any of that would ever happen.  DCU will limp along for a number of years, but soe missed their chance to make this game take off.

    You can try pointing fingers at me for thinking the "nothing" in the game was good enough, but for all your crowing it seems there wasn't enough good in the game for you to stay either and you are one of the biggest supporters.  You faced down all the criticisms of the game early on.  You even went so far as to say the game wasn't the problem, it was people just not getting it.  Yet you too are gone as a result of the problems.  You talked about all the massive awesome gameplay and the huge potential of the game.  You are not returning, because the game isn't good enough. 

    If I scored a game 8/10 and my friends asked me if I think they should play it, I would say yes in a heartbeat.  Will you recommend DCU to your friends right now?  A game you stopped playing due to the problems and your lack of faith in the company to resolve those problems? 

     

    Somewhere these 8/10 near pefect game scores missed, ignored or whatever problems that are so frequent and massive that it has chased away upwards of 90% of the game population.  A professional game sites review like this should be able to properly cover issues that its reader base might and obviously did find important.  Especially important enough to quit over.  Especially important enough for that readerbase to question the integrity of the reviews.  Especially when the problems were being pointed out before the review came.  That should not happen and slapping the "well its just an opinion" doesn't really cut it.

    On one hand they get upset at being called glorified bloggers, but then they justify their scores by claiming them as opinion pieces and saying they are not writing things for their audience.  That is a very mixed message being sent.  People come to sites like this to read reviews for unbiased information on games.  People don't come here, because they want to find out what games Bill Murphy likes.  They want to find information on a game and make buying decisions on that information. 

     

    Again, there is nothing wrong with loving a game that has big issues, but that love should not blind a review to such massive and serious pitfalls. 

     

    I have recommended DCUO to friends, and will continue to do so when they are looking for an awesome action game with a lot of customization.  I will be returning as I've said a number of times.  SWG lost a number of players and regained a number of players.. they didn't constantly bleed away,  they lost many subs when JTL launched,  then the combat update,  and it slowly grew back for a little while.

     

    Some people need to just get over themselves.  Reviews are opinions, plain and simple.  All games have problems,  and the entire premise of playing a game is playing it for enjoyment.    As stated the PC version had its problems and will be fixed in time,  the PS3 version is still holding subscribers,  that doesn't mean that the game is bad,  it means that the game had issues on launch.   Many games do,  and when the smoke clears they can still be successful in their own right.   

     

    There won't be a single site that has reviewers that you'll agree 100% with,  and you should be used to it by now.  This game has some flaws,  but its still extremely fun and rewarding and deserves the score.  8 of 10 is a great score,  and while the average score was 7 - 7.5 of total reviews,  whats .5 to 1 point for a reviewer that really enjoyed the game?

     

    Average critic score comes to about 7.5  http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/dcuniverseonline/index.html?  tag=result%3Btitle%3B1    and you're seriously making a federal case about .5 of a point?     

     

    As much as you seem to try and point out the flaws to try and  prove your point, you fail to acknowledge the good,  and that the good is actually REALLY good.   There are still many players out there that enjoy the game and would gladly give the game the same if not a better score.  Its how these things work, both in a professional sense and as a fan, and even, as a hater it would seem.  You don't have to like it,  but lets all learn to accept it.    

     

    Whether the game goes F2P,  or dies next month,  what the game is now is still amazingly fun and worthy of the box price.  Its time to stop complaining about what the game isn't and start looking at the game on what it is.  Stop complaining about it not having crafting or housing, or enough content for 6 years of play time.  If you can't play it and enjoy it for what it is, and you can't understand why others enjoy it or give it the praise they do,  then just move along.   The game could have 2 players in the game and I'd still give it the same praise.  No reason to lie just because others don't see my point of view,  and just like this review, they'll have to accept that.



  • MykellMykell Member UncommonPosts: 780

    Imo it comes down to this, if you write positive articals about games your assumed to have some hidden agenda or be receiving secret payoffs from greedy and moralless publishers/developers who given the chance would steal candy from a baby.

    If you rail against modern mmo's your seen to be some shining beacon of light, illuminating the masses, and spreading the "truth" about what's really going on.

    Imo what going on is mmo's have changed and are still changing and some people don't like it. MMO's used to disguise a lack of content with grind. Nowadays players having played multiple games and grinded to end game are sick of it and voiced what they want is more content and less grind. Developers just can't create content fast enough that players won't burn through and end up complaining there wasn't enough. If they try and gate some content with grind they get complaints.

    MMO's used to be about long term player retention but with so much competition it now seems to be more about massive up front box sales and anything extra is just icing on the cake. However removing the grind only fixes one problem and creates another....what's the reason to sub if you can just blow through the content in a month and move on. Imo they need to remove the sub since its a barrier to re-entry. Subs make people feel like they HAVE to play to get their monies worth.

    I think GW's was ahead of its time with its B2P model. They've shown you can be successful without a sub and still get people coming back to play years after release. Why more mmo's don't follow its model is beyond me.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper Member CommonPosts: 2,751

    Oh lord this thread... It's hard to know where to begin to be honest.

     

    First up we have site representatives saying that they are not 'bloggers' but professional journalists whilst at the same time defending their articles as 'only their opinion'. Not being funny but there are many erudite, highly literate bloggers out there who go to all the conventions as well. What seperates them from the 'professionals' (aside from a salary) is the fact that the latter are supposed to have a somewhat informative, considered and neutral viewpoint. If the writers here don't realise that (stupidly) many people on the site look to their reviews and articles for some information above and beyond some nicely dressed up  'zomg I luvz it 9.9/10...but I haz no ideaz if it will tankz in a week' then I have to question whether they are not spending too much time ig and they have a severe disconnect with reality.

     

    Saying 'it's just their opinion dude' is a fine defense if we are talking about a random blogger or player review, it is a trite line of defense for a supposedly professional review. No we don't expect them to go all Mystic Meg and see into the future, but it isn't that hard to make an educated guess based on a companies history and current bugs in the game they are reviewing..

     

    Secondly we have someone who thinks the game is great..but doesn't play it. Who also thinks that a massive decline in subs and the need for server mergers in a subscription based game (i.e. a game that's meant to have longevity) does not point to the game having issues..

     

    I'm sorry but 8/10 for a single player/offline game that only holds your attention for a week is fine, 8/10 for a game that is meant to last more than a month is fucking ridiculous. It's doesn't matter if it has the greatest combat system ever seen or the most amazing graphics. It's a sub based mmo, not a one hit offline game, wake up and smell the roses ffs.

     

    How about I give MO 10/10 because it handles nudity better than any other game, it's bugged to fuck, the servers are never online and only about 5 people play it but that doesn't mean it's not the 'bestest game evah 10/10 plox'. You see that may well be the opinion of an ardent (and deluded) fanboi but for a professional reviewer? For anyone who wants to make a case for a game whilst keeping a straight face? I think not and I find it flabbergasting that people seem to think otherwise.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Former Managing EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 4,565

    I know it's the cry of every poster who keeps visiting a thread long after it's served its purpose, but I'm just going to hop in here one more time.

    Many are asking, "Well okay, it's an 8 out of 10, but what about how short-lived the fun is?"

    Good lord, folks. That's again always subjective. I'm still playing the game almost daily. I'm at the level cap with one character, and raising another. I've spent well over 100 hours in the game, and I'm still having fun. You're saying that because others get to the cap and get bored, I should lower my score? You're missing the point of reviews.

    In my review and many other articles, I stated that DCUO was really going to need to hit its monthly content updates. And so far it has. While these may not be enough for everyone, the new Legends PvP, Duos, Raids, and Solo missions have been enough for me to continue my enjoyment.

    Do you see where I'm going with this? You're all basically saying, "We disagree with this review and therefore this whole site is out of order." But that's an incredibly silly proposition, because as a site almost all of our content is editorial in nature.

    Now I'm not saying DCUO doesn't have issues. I'm not even saying that those of you who think my review is offbase are wrong. You're all entitled to your opinion. But now, as you see my responses, are you at least able to understand why I've given the game an 8? For me, as I'm still playing it regularly and have been since the beta, is it really that hard to understand that I've given it an 8?

    I'm a consumer, like you. I play these games for enjoyment, like you. I honestly and earnestly believe in the reviews I write. I would willingly tell anyone to pick up DCUO if they're looking for a solid and casual action-MMO. That's essentially what my review and other articles on the game state.

    If you disagree with my assigned rating, you can come here and state as much until you're blue in the face... but the rating is going to stay. Just because you, and many others even. Maybe the entire world would disagree with my rating, for all I know. But even if they did? Even if every last soul thought I was out of my mind and deserved banishment into the 8th dimension? My review would still be valid, because the reviews we publish here at MMORPG.com are based on the authors' opinion.

    That's all she wrote folks. Disagree with the review if you will. Never read another word I write if you'd like. But you might as well resign yourselves to accept that our scores and editorial content (everything published here by any author) are our own and we stand by them.

    Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.

    My Review Manifesto
    Follow me on Twitter if you dare.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

     

    As much as you seem to try and point out the flaws to try and  prove your point, you fail to acknowledge the good,  and that the good is actually REALLY good.   There are still many players out there that enjoy the game and would gladly give the game the same if not a better score.  Its how these things work, both in a professional sense and as a fan, and even, as a hater it would seem.  You don't have to like it,  but lets all learn to accept it.    

     

    Whether the game goes F2P,  or dies next month,  what the game is now is still amazingly fun and worthy of the box price.  Its time to stop complaining about what the game isn't and start looking at the game on what it is.  Stop complaining about it not having crafting or housing, or enough content for 6 years of play time.  If you can't play it and enjoy it for what it is, and you can't understand why others enjoy it or give it the praise they do,  then just move along.   The game could have 2 players in the game and I'd still give it the same praise.  No reason to lie just because others don't see my point of view,  and just like this review, they'll have to accept that.

    First, you rail against me for criticizing the score of the review, because it is an opinion and can't be proven wrong.  Almost every time you do that, you immediately rush to defend the score by saying how awesome the game is and how the score is justified.  How is what you are doing any different than what I have done?  Seems like a huge double standard don't you think?

    As for what I criticize I think most of that is back up by facts. 

    There are so many problems in the game that they are driving away the majority of the games players.  That is a fact, not a criticism.  Those problems were not properly addressed in the review and as such rated the game a near perfect score.  People who read the articles here might expect to find a polished game with superior delivery of systems and mechanics.   Instead of finding a game with "minor annoying bugs" they might find a game so poorly put together that it has driven away most of its playerbase inside 1 month.   Including you.

    I'm not making this stuff up.  It isn't wild speculation like you claims that people come back to mmos and will return to dcu.  That massive drop off in an mmo doesn't mean it is bad and that this situation is somehow normal for new mmo releases of games that are near perfect.  That the game will get fixed in time or whatever promises the devs have made.

     

    I'm sorry, but DCU is a game with a few decent features that are outweighted by the negatives.  I'm not disagreeing with the decent features in the game so I don't need to discuss them, because that isn't the heart of the issue.  In fact trying to bring up the positives of the game to offset the negatives is pretty much the heart of the discussion here and why that is a problem. 

    If you took 10,000 players who bought DCU and asked them to rate it do you think they would rate anywhere close to 8 of 10?  Do you think they would agree with the articles here?   Do you think the overall view would be that the game is near perfect, but they all decided to leave for no real reason?

    That is the point.  DCU has some major flaws that were being widely discussed and again are the source of people leaving the game just like they were in beta.  Those same problems you so enthusiastically defended and dismissed, just like the articles here.  Yet in the end those were the exact reasons why you quit the game. 

    Think about that.  How bad must a games problems be to drive away the biggest supporters.  Now think if that situation warrents a near perfection rating for a game. 

     

  • DaitenguDaitengu Member Posts: 442

    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Oh lord this thread... It's hard to know where to begin to be honest.

     

    First up we have site representatives saying that they are not 'bloggers' but professional journalists whilst at the same time defending their articles as 'only their opinion'. Not being funny but there are many erudite, highly literate bloggers out there who go to all the conventions as well. What seperates them from the 'professionals' (aside from a salary) is the fact that the latter are supposed to have a somewhat informative, considered and neutral viewpoint. If the writers here don't realise that (stupidly) many people on the site look to their reviews and articles for some information above and beyond some nicely dressed up  'zomg I luvz it 9.9/10...but I haz no ideaz if it will tankz in a week' then I have to question whether they are not spending too much time ig and they have a severe disconnect with reality.

     

    Saying 'it's just their opinion dude' is a fine defense if we are talking about a random blogger or player review, it is a trite line of defense for a supposedly professional review. No we don't expect them to go all Mystic Meg and see into the future, but it isn't that hard to make an educated guess based on a companies history and current bugs in the game they are reviewing..

     

    Secondly we have someone who thinks the game is great..but doesn't play it. Who also thinks that a massive decline in subs and the need for server mergers in a subscription based game (i.e. a game that's meant to have longevity) does not point to the game having issues..

     

    I'm sorry but 8/10 for a single player/offline game that only holds your attention for a week is fine, 8/10 for a game that is meant to last more than a month is fucking ridiculous. It's doesn't matter if it has the greatest combat system ever seen or the most amazing graphics. It's a sub based mmo, not a one hit offline game, wake up and smell the roses ffs.

     

    How about I give MO 10/10 because it handles nudity better than any other game, it's bugged to fuck, the servers are never online and only about 5 people play it but that doesn't mean it's not the 'bestest game evah 10/10 plox'. You see that may well be the opinion of an ardent (and deluded) fanboi but for a professional reviewer? For anyone who wants to make a case for a game whilst keeping a straight face? I think not and I find it flabbergasting that people seem to think otherwise.

    Oh, this kind of 'truth' is rather subjective. 

    What color is the sky? well at any given time it can be: blue, black, gray, red, orange, pink, green, and violet

    Subjective truth. You're gunna get different answers.

  • kefkahkefkah Member Posts: 832

    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Oh lord this thread... It's hard to know where to begin to be honest.

     

    First up we have site representatives saying that they are not 'bloggers' but professional journalists whilst at the same time defending their articles as 'only their opinion'. Not being funny but there are many erudite, highly literate bloggers out there who go to all the conventions as well. What seperates them from the 'professionals' (aside from a salary) is the fact that the latter are supposed to have a somewhat informative, considered and neutral viewpoint. If the writers here don't realise that (stupidly) many people on the site look to their reviews and articles for some information above and beyond some nicely dressed up  'zomg I luvz it 9.9/10...but I haz no ideaz if it will tankz in a week' then I have to question whether they are not spending too much time ig and they have a severe disconnect with reality.

     

    Saying 'it's just their opinion dude' is a fine defense if we are talking about a random blogger or player review, it is a trite line of defense for a supposedly professional review. No we don't expect them to go all Mystic Meg and see into the future, but it isn't that hard to make an educated guess based on a companies history and current bugs in the game they are reviewing..

     

    Secondly we have someone who thinks the game is great..but doesn't play it. Who also thinks that a massive decline in subs and the need for server mergers in a subscription based game (i.e. a game that's meant to have longevity) does not point to the game having issues..

     

    I'm sorry but 8/10 for a single player/offline game that only holds your attention for a week is fine, 8/10 for a game that is meant to last more than a month is fucking ridiculous. It's doesn't matter if it has the greatest combat system ever seen or the most amazing graphics. It's a sub based mmo, not a one hit offline game, wake up and smell the roses ffs.

     

    How about I give MO 10/10 because it handles nudity better than any other game, it's bugged to fuck, the servers are never online and only about 5 people play it but that doesn't mean it's not the 'bestest game evah 10/10 plox'. You see that may well be the opinion of an ardent (and deluded) fanboi but for a professional reviewer? For anyone who wants to make a case for a game whilst keeping a straight face? I think not and I find it flabbergasting that people seem to think otherwise.

     This deserves its own thread and an achievement award for pointing out the elephant in the room.

  • Daffid011Daffid011 Member UncommonPosts: 7,945

    @Bill Murphy

    I don't think anyone is trying to get you or the website to change your rating of the game.  It is yours and retconning it won't change what you have already stated.  You enjoy the game at an 8/10 level and that isn't really being debated.

    Beyond that the difference between your coverage of the game and the actual problems and condition of the game are vastly different.  They are so different that it is hard to believe people are leaving the game you describe in such large amounts. 

    That begs the question of how so many problems and issues could be overlooked in a game, especially when it was already being discussed in beta.  I'm not saying you need to write what you think people want to hear, but something this obvious should not be possible to have been missed, especially with the vast amount of coverage the game has had here.

  • ShaydeShayde Member Posts: 4,529

    When you have to write the line "I still enjoyed the game despite the bugs", that means it doesn't deserve an 8/10.

     

    PERIOD.

     

    7, 7.5 at BEST.

    Shayde - SWG (dead)
    Proud member of the Cabal.
    image

    imageimage
    It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled :( - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me.
    I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
    09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0

This discussion has been closed.