This issue can go both ways. yeah, Apple's kinda at fault for the whole "leaving credit card data cached for 15 minutes" thing. and yeah, the people who wmarket the smurfs game are kinda skeezy for marketing it to kids, however, people are forgetting the one person that could have, at several steps, stopped this from happening.
The Parent. Oh yes, I'm going there
Firstly: when I was 8 years old, would I have been trusted to handle something as expensive as an iPad? HELL no, second I touched it, my parents would have taken it out of my hands and put it out of reach. This could have stopped the 1500 dollar charge
Secondly, when I was 8, the video games of the day were Atari. do you think I was ever unsupervised when playing? If the parents would have just been -watching- what the kid was doing, you know, like a parent's supposed to do, this wouldn't have happened.
Thirdly, part of the issue here is that the iTunes system stores credit card info in memory for like 15 minutes or so after a music purchase. This leaves me to think it was a case of "Mommy just bought some music, here's my iPad, play Smurfs while I do something more important than caring for you". Steps one and two could have stopped this, as well as some simple system security. Knowing this about iTunes, the parent could have, say, disabled the caching feature, or held onto the iPad until the data left cache.
TL:DR version: yeah, the companies are at fault, but Mommy and Daddy here are borderline neglectful.
while i agree lots of parent nowadays are not involved enough with what their kids are doing , its not always an open an shut case as you would make it appear to be . yes we have to take responsibility as parents BUT corporate america needs to start taking some too ! Its ghastly how they are now targeting young children ( in evrything from itunes to the cereal they eat in the morn ).
we all like to say, " but the parent need to ... etc etc" but i rarely hear the same said fo these mighty corporate giants ( which most are legally viewed as theyre own proper entity) perhaps they should own up to some of ithe blame aswell !!!!
im 37 and know what ive never had a iphone or a an ipad, hell i dont even have a cell phone. Now i do have a pc n i do spend lots of my time online so as such i am aware of the dangers this new generation of children face.
hell as a parent my child WILL NOT have a pc in his room or be allowed to surf or even play games without my looking at it inside and out and evrywhich way BUT i know about this some and i prob wouldnt if i didnt have a pc .
Now i have some friends round my age that are not into pc and they havent a clue about the dangers, they only started watchin what was going on , on thier kids pc becuase i warned em. this doesnt make them stupid or neglectfull parents.
its not so easy for some one that doesnt follow all the tech stuff when the ,market is saturated with items that didnt exist when we where in school or younger etc etc
lol i know people that dont know what an ipad even is , the world isnt made up only of NERDS like most of us here are, its also comprised of people that dont know, want or care about all this new technology.
like they say it takes a village to raise good children and unfortunetly our villages in north america are not what, or even all they used to be
sp in ending im all for it there is way to many new frontiers now that are unregulated and "lawless" ( like in the far west) and even though they are digital as we have learned they can still be dangerous
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Just stop calling it "Free to play". Yes you can play the games for free, but you can also play the games by spending money and the name doesn't reflect that. Make it F&P2P.
I have been saying that the 'F2P' tag is a dishonest and exploitative misnomer for years now, usually arguing against the flow. Nice to see that the zeitgeist is falling in with my perspective at last.
The investigation doesn't involve the f2p mmo models at all - it's about mobile apps and CC charges. The f2p mmo model is a solid architecture enjoyed and utilized by millions of discerning gamers, and has been a lucrative source of income for many development studios and their publishers. Always odd to see such vitriol aimed at f2p's by a vocal minority who don't seem to grasp the root of the model - which is consumer choice and personalized options (both good things in a free market economy).
True, some gamers have no impulse control and or enjoy spending exhorbitant amounts of irl money on a title. But that hardly warrants slamming the model or shutting them all down. The same could be said of almost any consumer offering - there are those who will abuse it or have no self control. Or, in this case, unsupervised children doing as unsupervised children tend to do.
Obviously, someone didn't educate their child or teach any responsibility before allowing them access to the game. The silent majority of us gamer parents with gamer children are continuously educating and re-educating them on choice, discretion, budgeting and self-control. If a gamer (child or otherwise) just can't cope with seeing the virtual avatars around them spending more money than themselves - then f2p's are probably not the best choice for that individual. But it doesn't negate the virtues of the model. It just means that person has self-control issues or prefers a different marketing model for their hobby.
The majority of f2p mmo consumers choose these games because the model(s) allow us to customize and prioritize our entertainment budgets based on personal criteria and finances. Some titles are better than others, obviously. Pay-to-Win tend to attract those who enjoy spending lots of money every month for microtransactions. But the vast majority of f2p games are fairly well balanced and can be enjoyed quite comfortably by rational, discerning gamers who have full control of their impulses and purchase desires - with little to no irl money investment. Exactly as advertised.
It's about consumer choice and self control. There's just no accounting for stupidity. Education and patience are key - as with anything involving raising children. Some people would love to see us become a Nanny State - and have been successful on several fronts in doing so. But legislated morality is rarely successful to any appreciable extent. No need to look further than prohibition (both past and current), gun control laws or the plethora of online gambling to confirm - it just doesn't deter people. In fact, it often makes things worse.
The whole free to play system is more of a money maker in my opinion then the monthly sub if you actually purchase extra stuff. If I am aparent (and I am) and say "make sure you only download free stuff "this whole free to play thing can get out of hand in a child's mind. Free is free to a child but not to me. Nothing is truly free anymore. I agree children should be supervised but there are a lot of people my age that don't understand online gaming. They know how to text but have no clue what is going on in the gaming world. So to them how could a child rack up a $1400 dollar bill? It easier then ever today. Happy Gaming and God bless.
Another thing the gov't should do is limit the maximun money paid for F2P games. Meaning that if my total purchases for the month go over the regular monthly subscription price then you should get the whole month to play free at full throttle if you bought things you would normally get with the monthly sub. I do understand that this is complicated buut not impossible. Now this will not work well for games that never had a monthly sub but EQ2 and others really make out very well with their F2P model. I spend more then the monthly sub sometimes and get less then then monthly subs do. No hate, just sayin. I love EQ2
I think it is a total scam how devs conjure up ways to milk your wallet just so that you have a nice virtual house you can show off to your friends. On the other hand, nobody forced these people to buy this stuff. Apparently parents don't educate their kids enough and adults who spend fortunes on this stuff are just stupid in my opinion.
Agree with the last part but not the first. It's not a scam, it's business acumen.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The investigation doesn't involve the f2p mmo models at all - it's about mobile apps and CC charges. The f2p mmo model is a solid architecture enjoyed and utilized by millions of discerning gamers, and has been a lucrative source of income for many development studios and their publishers. Always odd to see such vitriol aimed at f2p's by a vocal minority who don't seem to grasp the root of the model - which is consumer choice and personalized options (both good things in a free market economy).
True, some gamers have no impulse control and or enjoy spending exhorbitant amounts of irl money on a title. But that hardly warrants slamming the model or shutting them all down. The same could be said of almost any consumer offering - there are those who will abuse it or have no self control. Or, in this case, unsupervised children doing as unsupervised children tend to do.
We as buyers have some responsibilites BUT it cannot be denied that the ones doing the "offering" need to start taking some responsibilities for their actions aswell.
An example would be how cell phone companies could place hidden fees in such a way it was almost impossible to realize what you are signin up for, seems the gov regulations (atleast here in canada) forcing them to stop this practice is working
Obviously, someone didn't educate their child or teach any responsibility before allowing them access to the game. The silent majority of us gamer parents with gamer children are continuously educating and re-educating them on choice, discretion, budgeting and self-control. If a gamer (child or otherwise) just can't cope with seeing the virtual avatars around them spending more money than themselves - then f2p's are probably not the best choice for that individual. But it doesn't negate the virtues of the model. It just means that person has self-control issues or prefers a different marketing model for their hobby.
while its true some adults have no self control the fact they are adults make it their own problem, what of the kids that are gamers but whose parent are NOT gamers and are not aware such things can happen, what of companies that purposely target chilren (especially in advertising)
The majority of f2p mmo consumers choose these games because the model(s) allow us to customize and prioritize our entertainment budgets based on personal criteria and finances. Some titles are better than others, obviously. Pay-to-Win tend to attract those who enjoy spending lots of money every month for microtransactions. But the vast majority of f2p games are fairly well balanced and can be enjoyed quite comfortably by rational, discerning gamers who have full control of their impulses and purchase desires - with little to no irl money investment. Exactly as advertised.
i dont think anyone is meaning to say these need to be shut down (the f2p model ) but lets face it there hardly any regulations they need to follow. just look at all the discussion that arise about eulas and TOS and whether they are legel and whatnot
It's about consumer choice and self control. There's just no accounting for stupidity. Education and patience are key - as with anything involving raising children. Some people would love to see us become a Nanny State - and have been successful on several fronts in doing so. But legislated morality is rarely successful to any appreciable extent. No need to look further than prohibition (both past and current), gun control laws or the plethora of online gambling to confirm - it just doesn't deter people. In fact, it often makes things worse.
jsut becuase some regulation might be needed doesnt make us a Nanny State. You claim regulations will most likely make things worse , i kindly disagree just look to the uk where regulations against guns are much more sever than in north america and the result they have a much lower gun related crime rate
Im not sure anything can be done about stupidity but i do know education shouldnt be required by only us private citizens, but also to all that makes up this nation including government, corporations etc etc
Anyone that claims corporate america is blameless for the harm they have done and its ALL ON US the consumer cleary isnt informed
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Seriously do some of you even know what a childs mind process is at the age of 8 is even remotely? The child probably and most likely didn't understand it was real money. Knowing what cash in your hand is and what a click of a button causing massive amounts of cash to leave a real account are two different things. Hell half of you are probably in CC debt up to your eyeballs because you can stop and exam your own finances and are bitching that an eight year old doesn't know better. That is laughable.
I applaud the few of you who are taking the blame the corporation approach. That is what this boils down to. Corporations fire workers and replace them for cheaper labor and target kids at super young age(Hell just look at nick/nickjr commercials for crying out loud..half of these "scam" games are on them)
Now do I think the parent is responsible? Absolutely. They screwed up and are negligent parents. They are the parents that say here kids let this entertain you and go away. They are the same ones that let their 10 year old play GTA and then bitched about it. There is a reason why you don't have to pass any kind of test to make babies, some people are just morons.
They overcharge for the cost of the good purchased. An item barely worth $1 or $2 is instead charged effectively $10.
The token system where you convert real money into arbitrary credits at an arbitrary rate, usually giving more for spending more so you're punished for not buying the largest amount.
The token buy system giving you one amount, E.G. 600 points, and the cheapest item costing 595 points. This is if you're lucky. Other times they can give you 595 and charge 600 for the cheapest items.
These 3 things are what ruin F2P effectively. The token system disassociating money from the purchase only adds insult to injury causing people to spend $8 or $10 for a reskin of an item in one game when the texture probably only took 2 days to make (less testing). It's rather insulting, really.
That said, I believe the F2P system is ultimately better than the P2P system, simply because you can pay for the content you want, and don't need to pay a lump sum just for continued access with no guarantee of content for you beyond a promiss (WoW comes to mind. Don't like raiding? SCREW YOU! All your money is going into raiding). However, the sheer cost of the system by comparison and the lack of value castrate F2P.
Seriously do some of you even know what a childs mind process is at the age of 8 is even remotely? The child probably and most likely didn't understand it was real money. Knowing what cash in your hand is and what a click of a button causing massive amounts of cash to leave a real account are two different things. Hell half of you are probably in CC debt up to your eyeballs because you can stop and exam your own finances and are bitching that an eight year old doesn't know better. That is laughable.
I applaud the few of you who are taking the blame the corporation approach. That is what this boils down to. Corporations fire workers and replace them for cheaper labor and target kids at super young age(Hell just look at nick/nickjr commercials for crying out loud..half of these "scam" games are on them)
Now do I think the parent is responsible? Absolutely. They screwed up and are negligent parents. They are the parents that say here kids let this entertain you and go away. They are the same ones that let their 10 year old play GTA and then bitched about it. There is a reason why you don't have to pass any kind of test to make babies, some people are just morons.
not to mention the agro us parents get from our kids with all the "i want that" because of such advertisements on kids channels, on that note i'd liek to add that most kids channels require a paid subscription here in UK, i think only CBBC is on freeview now, so why the need for advertisements in first place if not to corrupt the young minds of our kids and drive us parents mad?
We've been gaming MMORPGs for over 10 years. Just before WoW Cata came out we stopped playing WoW and started on F2P LOTRO. Even if you just want to explore all of LOTRO you have to pay. All F2P does is take the money from the gold farmer's and put it in the pockets of the corporation. When our sons were in their teens we used parental controls on cable, internet and smart phones. I'm not fond of receiving the cell phone bill via email and getting the shock of the day. I much prefer the montly fee that EQ, WoW or RIFT charges. RIFT is in Head Start mode and already the 'farmers' are trying to sell 1P for $3.99. /sigh.
Seriously do some of you even know what a childs mind process is at the age of 8 is even remotely? The child probably and most likely didn't understand it was real money. Knowing what cash in your hand is and what a click of a button causing massive amounts of cash to leave a real account are two different things. Hell half of you are probably in CC debt up to your eyeballs because you can stop and exam your own finances and are bitching that an eight year old doesn't know better. That is laughable.
I applaud the few of you who are taking the blame the corporation approach. That is what this boils down to. Corporations fire workers and replace them for cheaper labor and target kids at super young age(Hell just look at nick/nickjr commercials for crying out loud..half of these "scam" games are on them)
Now do I think the parent is responsible? Absolutely. They screwed up and are negligent parents. They are the parents that say here kids let this entertain you and go away. They are the same ones that let their 10 year old play GTA and then bitched about it. There is a reason why you don't have to pass any kind of test to make babies, some people are just morons.
not to mention the agro us parents get from our kids with all the "i want that" because of such advertisements on kids channels, on that note i'd liek to add that most kids channels require a paid subscription here in UK, i think only CBBC is on freeview now, so why the need for advertisements in first place if not to corrupt the young minds of our kids and drive us parents mad?
I think in the uk there some sort of regulation on some kinds of ads towrds children plus add in the fact that in the uk you dont have anywhere near the same amounts of ads as in north america
did you know big companies hire advertising agencies that in turn employ psychologist to be more effective when 'targeting" children?
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
When it comes to mobile games that target kids there should probably be some regulation in that space. You can argue both directions here parents fault for getting kids a smart phone. But lets face it it's just as cheap to get a smart phone as it is to get a standard one. Some sort of verification email or something to the primary account holder of the phone contract should be sent in order to complete any of these kinds of transactions where its a game for kids. If you are the primary contract holder and spend $1400 on your smurf house thats your business, but when it is a kid that probably doesn't understand exactly what they are doing when purchacing that purple polkadot wallpaper there should be some safeguards in place.
and I will argue the other way. Giving an 8 yrs old a cell phone period is stupid and the parents should be made to pay every dime for being that irresponsible. What does an 8 yr old need a cell phone at all for? Schools pick them up if they are caught with them, home phone are available at home, and who lets their 8 yr old to far from the house alone? It is part of the problems with kids today in general. If you give your child a piece of equipment and do not teach them the proper and responsible use of it then you need to pay the $1,400 + a "dumbass" fee.
My 10 yr old daughter wanted a cell...I asked her "why? What will you use it for?" She said to call her friends at school. "You can't take it to school, that is where you go to study and learn not text/call friends. Besides, your at school WITH your friends, you can just lean over and talk to them". She when wiped out "I might have to call you". "If you need to call me or your mom at school, you go to the office. She said I was right "but my friends have them". "And that they aren't supposed to have them at school are they?" I replied. I then stated "If you need to call someone at home, use the home phone." She then said "But they have XYZ game you can get on the phone". "That is what your computer and game system are for".
I told her she could have a cell phone either when she was old enough to get her drivers license or got a job that could pay for it.
I was talking to a freind the other day and asked them "Do you remember what cell phones were originally made for?" He had a puzzled look on his face. I then explain "They were originally for making emergency phone calls in case you were stranded somewhere in you car or in an accident." He was like "WOW, yea you are right. I had forgotten that." The fact that they have become a status symbol to irresponsible children is a sad state we are in and dumb parents perpetuate it.
If people would start doing their jobs as responsible parents, there would be no need for "investigations" and these stories would be anecdotal at best.
Another thing the gov't should do is limit the maximun money paid for F2P games. Meaning that if my total purchases for the month go over the regular monthly subscription price then you should get the whole month to play free at full throttle if you bought things you would normally get with the monthly sub. I do understand that this is complicated buut not impossible. Now this will not work well for games that never had a monthly sub but EQ2 and others really make out very well with their F2P model. I spend more then the monthly sub sometimes and get less then then monthly subs do. No hate, just sayin. I love EQ2
The government needs to keep its nose out and you need to not play a game that doesn't offer the "max money" feature. The government doing anything about how they charge for their service is insane. I enough people just say "I won't play with this payment model" they will change it or they will have no business. Getting the government involed will destroy it completely. You only think it is bad now.
Its kind of funny seeing some of the responses some people have about things like parents actually doing their jobs and parenting & educating their child. One of you made the point of the parents maybe not using/knowing much about the products and due to that are unaware of some of the problems / risks. To those types of people, I have a question:
Do you just run out and buy powertools for your kids because they think it looks cool, then not even bother learning how to use said tool or researching how to use it safely, and then just hand it over to your kid to figure out for himself? Do you just go out and buy your teenager a new car without even bothering to teach them how to drive?
Yes, not everyone is "tech savvy" and knows everything about some of the technology such as smart phones, ipads, etc that we see today, but as a parent it is YOUR responsibility to learn about a product that you are buying for YOUR child rather than just blindly handing things over with no clue how they even work, what risks they pose (to their safety or monetary risks), or how to use them properly.
When i was growing up my mother (who raised 3 boys on her own, which makes me lol at all the people who QQ about how hard it is to raise a single child and that theyre too busy to care for them, etc) was actually involved with us and learned about the things we were interested in. If something new came out that we wanted, she would learn all about it along with us rather than just shelling out some $ for it and then passing it to us as a sad attempt at a replacement babysitter like so many parents do now. The pathetic thing is, parents used to do that back in the days of snail mail before the internet was used. Nowadays you can learn all about how to do pretty much ANYTHING from the cmfort of your home thanks to the internet, yet parents are still too lazy to bother even spending an hour or 2 reading through a few reviews, manuals, etc about what theyre buying f rtheir children.
The bottom line is that using the term "free" to discribe a game in which you CAN spend real money is misleading. Using the term "free" is a marketing ploy to draw in people. If they change the term to something else a bit more HONEST, I would have no problem with them. Until then, any game that claims to be f2p is a scam to me.
"I refer to online poker, where it's possible - and not all that unusual - to amass thousands of dollars without ever putting a cent at risk. There's are many more cases of seeming abuse by apparently unscrupulous operators who, for example, went out of business without returning the players' money. What's more, quite a number of reports I've seen have involved far more than $1500."
Where on earth are you playing online poker that you can "amass thousands of dollars without ever putting a cent at risk"? Screams scam to me.
I've played at both of the largest and most reputable sites (pokerstars and fulltilt, they even advertise on TV) and they and both have real and play money options, but you have to risk real money to win real money....
As for the F2P adds targetting children...yeah, its shady as hell, but it isn't much different than other products that target kids. Don't give your kids your CC info or lock it into anything they have access to FFS.
I don't have enough facts to say who is at fault for what the kids bought. What is a smurfberry though and how could any ammount of them cost 1400 bucks?
F2P is a lie. It has always been a lie. Anytime any game or entertainment company puts out a partial product with the intention of cajoloing or luring or psychologically enticing some one into paying real money for something that does not really exist (ie a database item displayed on a sceen under certain circumstances or a new "area" that is only data in a database to be displayed), they are basing their whole business model on scamming the unwarry or less intelligent people with access to their product. They are basically playing the shell game (rigged of course).
They are misleading their potentiel customers from the begining. They should call their games PAYG games (pay as you go).
The fact that we keep hearing that games that have gone F2P (D&D and LOTRO come to mind) and that the revinue from these games has dramatically increased, is practical proof that there are a lot of gullible people out there who the F2P folks exploit with glee.
NO GAME SHOULD BE ADVERTIZED AS F2P UNLESS IT IS TRULY FREE TO PLAY. ALL THE WAY THROUGH. WITHOUT NEEDING POTIONS OR SNOWFLAKES OR SMURFBERRIES (SOLD SEPERATELY) TO ENJOY THE GAMES FULL SCOPE AND POSSIBILITIES.
Of course that would put an end to F2P games. And that would be a good thing as they are mostly just CRAP with a promise of being wonderful .. for just a few more dollars.
I guess you can tell I hate the whole F2P greed machine ... and always will.
Again ... Not trying to critisize anyone on this forum. JUST MY OPINION
The bottom line is that using the term "free" to discribe a game in which you CAN spend real money is misleading. Using the term "free" is a marketing ploy to draw in people. If they change the term to something else a bit more HONEST, I would have no problem with them. Until then, any game that claims to be f2p is a scam to me.
Thats like saying someone handing you a free sandwich is lying about being free because if you felt like it you could have given him $1 to thank him for the sandwich.
You ALWAYS have the option of giving $ for anything. By your logic, absolutely nothing is free because you could out of the kindness of your heart give someone some money for anything they do for you or give you.
Now if you were to grow up a bit, not be so narrow minded, and actually learn that we have this thing called free will which allows us to pick and choose what we spend $ on and wether or not something is worth the price, you could finally start being honest with yourself rather than trying to blame companies for your (and others) inability to control their own spending and make rational & logical decisions.
I have played both F2P & P2P games for years. If i start a new F2P game and see that their cash shop offers absolutely nothing of value to me, or the price is too high in exchange for how valuable/useful i feel it is for me, then i simply dont spend the $ and go on my way playing the game 100% free. I dont spend a bunch of money and then a month later look at my credit card bill in shock and awe trying to figure out how in the world those ingenious schemers at the MMO company managed to gather my credit card info and get all these charges through without my knowing like so many of the anti-f2p crowd likes to pretend happens.
Btw, a scam would be them lying to you about what is being bought or them having some extra hidden cost for an item that you are purchasing and are unaware of. Scam does not = the buyer being too ingorant or simple to think for themselves.
There is a true story in Perfect World, a boy who lived with his Grandmother got a hold of her debit card and spent her entire month's income on the game so when she went to pay her bills there was no money. Perfect World verified the problem and refunded the money.
This is not an uncommon happening. Don't know what the FTC can do about it though.
Free to Play is misleading. I don't care to use the model, but I wouldn't ban it but the name needs to change.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Free to Play is misleading. I don't care to use the model, but I wouldn't ban it but the name needs to change.
Please explain WHY it needs to change.
Can you play the game for free? Yes
Do you have the OPTION of spending money for special things if you want them? Yes, but that doesnt effect the 1st question, hence the optional part. If you stop spending $, you can still play exactly the same as before you started spending $.
Comments
Normally I would fight F2P games with fire but since APB is going F2P, I have no choice.
while i agree lots of parent nowadays are not involved enough with what their kids are doing , its not always an open an shut case as you would make it appear to be . yes we have to take responsibility as parents BUT corporate america needs to start taking some too ! Its ghastly how they are now targeting young children ( in evrything from itunes to the cereal they eat in the morn ).
we all like to say, " but the parent need to ... etc etc" but i rarely hear the same said fo these mighty corporate giants ( which most are legally viewed as theyre own proper entity) perhaps they should own up to some of ithe blame aswell !!!!
im 37 and know what ive never had a iphone or a an ipad, hell i dont even have a cell phone. Now i do have a pc n i do spend lots of my time online so as such i am aware of the dangers this new generation of children face.
hell as a parent my child WILL NOT have a pc in his room or be allowed to surf or even play games without my looking at it inside and out and evrywhich way BUT i know about this some and i prob wouldnt if i didnt have a pc .
Now i have some friends round my age that are not into pc and they havent a clue about the dangers, they only started watchin what was going on , on thier kids pc becuase i warned em. this doesnt make them stupid or neglectfull parents.
its not so easy for some one that doesnt follow all the tech stuff when the ,market is saturated with items that didnt exist when we where in school or younger etc etc
lol i know people that dont know what an ipad even is , the world isnt made up only of NERDS like most of us here are, its also comprised of people that dont know, want or care about all this new technology.
like they say it takes a village to raise good children and unfortunetly our villages in north america are not what, or even all they used to be
sp in ending im all for it there is way to many new frontiers now that are unregulated and "lawless" ( like in the far west) and even though they are digital as we have learned they can still be dangerous
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Just stop calling it "Free to play". Yes you can play the games for free, but you can also play the games by spending money and the name doesn't reflect that. Make it F&P2P.
I have been saying that the 'F2P' tag is a dishonest and exploitative misnomer for years now, usually arguing against the flow. Nice to see that the zeitgeist is falling in with my perspective at last.
The investigation doesn't involve the f2p mmo models at all - it's about mobile apps and CC charges. The f2p mmo model is a solid architecture enjoyed and utilized by millions of discerning gamers, and has been a lucrative source of income for many development studios and their publishers. Always odd to see such vitriol aimed at f2p's by a vocal minority who don't seem to grasp the root of the model - which is consumer choice and personalized options (both good things in a free market economy).
True, some gamers have no impulse control and or enjoy spending exhorbitant amounts of irl money on a title. But that hardly warrants slamming the model or shutting them all down. The same could be said of almost any consumer offering - there are those who will abuse it or have no self control. Or, in this case, unsupervised children doing as unsupervised children tend to do.
Obviously, someone didn't educate their child or teach any responsibility before allowing them access to the game. The silent majority of us gamer parents with gamer children are continuously educating and re-educating them on choice, discretion, budgeting and self-control. If a gamer (child or otherwise) just can't cope with seeing the virtual avatars around them spending more money than themselves - then f2p's are probably not the best choice for that individual. But it doesn't negate the virtues of the model. It just means that person has self-control issues or prefers a different marketing model for their hobby.
The majority of f2p mmo consumers choose these games because the model(s) allow us to customize and prioritize our entertainment budgets based on personal criteria and finances. Some titles are better than others, obviously. Pay-to-Win tend to attract those who enjoy spending lots of money every month for microtransactions. But the vast majority of f2p games are fairly well balanced and can be enjoyed quite comfortably by rational, discerning gamers who have full control of their impulses and purchase desires - with little to no irl money investment. Exactly as advertised.
It's about consumer choice and self control. There's just no accounting for stupidity. Education and patience are key - as with anything involving raising children. Some people would love to see us become a Nanny State - and have been successful on several fronts in doing so. But legislated morality is rarely successful to any appreciable extent. No need to look further than prohibition (both past and current), gun control laws or the plethora of online gambling to confirm - it just doesn't deter people. In fact, it often makes things worse.
The whole free to play system is more of a money maker in my opinion then the monthly sub if you actually purchase extra stuff. If I am aparent (and I am) and say "make sure you only download free stuff "this whole free to play thing can get out of hand in a child's mind. Free is free to a child but not to me. Nothing is truly free anymore. I agree children should be supervised but there are a lot of people my age that don't understand online gaming. They know how to text but have no clue what is going on in the gaming world. So to them how could a child rack up a $1400 dollar bill? It easier then ever today. Happy Gaming and God bless.
Another thing the gov't should do is limit the maximun money paid for F2P games. Meaning that if my total purchases for the month go over the regular monthly subscription price then you should get the whole month to play free at full throttle if you bought things you would normally get with the monthly sub. I do understand that this is complicated buut not impossible. Now this will not work well for games that never had a monthly sub but EQ2 and others really make out very well with their F2P model. I spend more then the monthly sub sometimes and get less then then monthly subs do. No hate, just sayin. I love EQ2
Agree with the last part but not the first. It's not a scam, it's business acumen.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Seriously do some of you even know what a childs mind process is at the age of 8 is even remotely? The child probably and most likely didn't understand it was real money. Knowing what cash in your hand is and what a click of a button causing massive amounts of cash to leave a real account are two different things. Hell half of you are probably in CC debt up to your eyeballs because you can stop and exam your own finances and are bitching that an eight year old doesn't know better. That is laughable.
I applaud the few of you who are taking the blame the corporation approach. That is what this boils down to. Corporations fire workers and replace them for cheaper labor and target kids at super young age(Hell just look at nick/nickjr commercials for crying out loud..half of these "scam" games are on them)
Now do I think the parent is responsible? Absolutely. They screwed up and are negligent parents. They are the parents that say here kids let this entertain you and go away. They are the same ones that let their 10 year old play GTA and then bitched about it. There is a reason why you don't have to pass any kind of test to make babies, some people are just morons.
Good. That Smurf Village is terrible, targeting children. The worst thing I have ever seen in gaming.
Adults have a hard enough time resisting the lure of F2P. Children have no chance at all.
R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there
Honestly, the only problems I have with F2P are:
They overcharge for the cost of the good purchased. An item barely worth $1 or $2 is instead charged effectively $10.
The token system where you convert real money into arbitrary credits at an arbitrary rate, usually giving more for spending more so you're punished for not buying the largest amount.
The token buy system giving you one amount, E.G. 600 points, and the cheapest item costing 595 points. This is if you're lucky. Other times they can give you 595 and charge 600 for the cheapest items.
These 3 things are what ruin F2P effectively. The token system disassociating money from the purchase only adds insult to injury causing people to spend $8 or $10 for a reskin of an item in one game when the texture probably only took 2 days to make (less testing). It's rather insulting, really.
That said, I believe the F2P system is ultimately better than the P2P system, simply because you can pay for the content you want, and don't need to pay a lump sum just for continued access with no guarantee of content for you beyond a promiss (WoW comes to mind. Don't like raiding? SCREW YOU! All your money is going into raiding). However, the sheer cost of the system by comparison and the lack of value castrate F2P.
not to mention the agro us parents get from our kids with all the "i want that" because of such advertisements on kids channels, on that note i'd liek to add that most kids channels require a paid subscription here in UK, i think only CBBC is on freeview now, so why the need for advertisements in first place if not to corrupt the young minds of our kids and drive us parents mad?
We've been gaming MMORPGs for over 10 years. Just before WoW Cata came out we stopped playing WoW and started on F2P LOTRO. Even if you just want to explore all of LOTRO you have to pay. All F2P does is take the money from the gold farmer's and put it in the pockets of the corporation. When our sons were in their teens we used parental controls on cable, internet and smart phones. I'm not fond of receiving the cell phone bill via email and getting the shock of the day. I much prefer the montly fee that EQ, WoW or RIFT charges. RIFT is in Head Start mode and already the 'farmers' are trying to sell 1P for $3.99. /sigh.
the agro is sometimes called Pester Power and companies are aware of how effective it is. You can read about it here http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/parents/marketing/marketers_target_kids.cfm .
I think in the uk there some sort of regulation on some kinds of ads towrds children plus add in the fact that in the uk you dont have anywhere near the same amounts of ads as in north america
did you know big companies hire advertising agencies that in turn employ psychologist to be more effective when 'targeting" children?
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
and I will argue the other way. Giving an 8 yrs old a cell phone period is stupid and the parents should be made to pay every dime for being that irresponsible. What does an 8 yr old need a cell phone at all for? Schools pick them up if they are caught with them, home phone are available at home, and who lets their 8 yr old to far from the house alone? It is part of the problems with kids today in general. If you give your child a piece of equipment and do not teach them the proper and responsible use of it then you need to pay the $1,400 + a "dumbass" fee.
My 10 yr old daughter wanted a cell...I asked her "why? What will you use it for?" She said to call her friends at school. "You can't take it to school, that is where you go to study and learn not text/call friends. Besides, your at school WITH your friends, you can just lean over and talk to them". She when wiped out "I might have to call you". "If you need to call me or your mom at school, you go to the office. She said I was right "but my friends have them". "And that they aren't supposed to have them at school are they?" I replied. I then stated "If you need to call someone at home, use the home phone." She then said "But they have XYZ game you can get on the phone". "That is what your computer and game system are for".
I told her she could have a cell phone either when she was old enough to get her drivers license or got a job that could pay for it.
I was talking to a freind the other day and asked them "Do you remember what cell phones were originally made for?" He had a puzzled look on his face. I then explain "They were originally for making emergency phone calls in case you were stranded somewhere in you car or in an accident." He was like "WOW, yea you are right. I had forgotten that." The fact that they have become a status symbol to irresponsible children is a sad state we are in and dumb parents perpetuate it.
If people would start doing their jobs as responsible parents, there would be no need for "investigations" and these stories would be anecdotal at best.
The government needs to keep its nose out and you need to not play a game that doesn't offer the "max money" feature. The government doing anything about how they charge for their service is insane. I enough people just say "I won't play with this payment model" they will change it or they will have no business. Getting the government involed will destroy it completely. You only think it is bad now.
[Mod Edit]
Its kind of funny seeing some of the responses some people have about things like parents actually doing their jobs and parenting & educating their child. One of you made the point of the parents maybe not using/knowing much about the products and due to that are unaware of some of the problems / risks. To those types of people, I have a question:
Do you just run out and buy powertools for your kids because they think it looks cool, then not even bother learning how to use said tool or researching how to use it safely, and then just hand it over to your kid to figure out for himself? Do you just go out and buy your teenager a new car without even bothering to teach them how to drive?
Yes, not everyone is "tech savvy" and knows everything about some of the technology such as smart phones, ipads, etc that we see today, but as a parent it is YOUR responsibility to learn about a product that you are buying for YOUR child rather than just blindly handing things over with no clue how they even work, what risks they pose (to their safety or monetary risks), or how to use them properly.
When i was growing up my mother (who raised 3 boys on her own, which makes me lol at all the people who QQ about how hard it is to raise a single child and that theyre too busy to care for them, etc) was actually involved with us and learned about the things we were interested in. If something new came out that we wanted, she would learn all about it along with us rather than just shelling out some $ for it and then passing it to us as a sad attempt at a replacement babysitter like so many parents do now. The pathetic thing is, parents used to do that back in the days of snail mail before the internet was used. Nowadays you can learn all about how to do pretty much ANYTHING from the cmfort of your home thanks to the internet, yet parents are still too lazy to bother even spending an hour or 2 reading through a few reviews, manuals, etc about what theyre buying f rtheir children.
The bottom line is that using the term "free" to discribe a game in which you CAN spend real money is misleading. Using the term "free" is a marketing ploy to draw in people. If they change the term to something else a bit more HONEST, I would have no problem with them. Until then, any game that claims to be f2p is a scam to me.
Let's party like it is 1863!
"I refer to online poker, where it's possible - and not all that unusual - to amass thousands of dollars without ever putting a cent at risk. There's are many more cases of seeming abuse by apparently unscrupulous operators who, for example, went out of business without returning the players' money. What's more, quite a number of reports I've seen have involved far more than $1500."
Where on earth are you playing online poker that you can "amass thousands of dollars without ever putting a cent at risk"? Screams scam to me.
I've played at both of the largest and most reputable sites (pokerstars and fulltilt, they even advertise on TV) and they and both have real and play money options, but you have to risk real money to win real money....
As for the F2P adds targetting children...yeah, its shady as hell, but it isn't much different than other products that target kids. Don't give your kids your CC info or lock it into anything they have access to FFS.
JUST AN OPINION
I don't have enough facts to say who is at fault for what the kids bought. What is a smurfberry though and how could any ammount of them cost 1400 bucks?
F2P is a lie. It has always been a lie. Anytime any game or entertainment company puts out a partial product with the intention of cajoloing or luring or psychologically enticing some one into paying real money for something that does not really exist (ie a database item displayed on a sceen under certain circumstances or a new "area" that is only data in a database to be displayed), they are basing their whole business model on scamming the unwarry or less intelligent people with access to their product. They are basically playing the shell game (rigged of course).
They are misleading their potentiel customers from the begining. They should call their games PAYG games (pay as you go).
The fact that we keep hearing that games that have gone F2P (D&D and LOTRO come to mind) and that the revinue from these games has dramatically increased, is practical proof that there are a lot of gullible people out there who the F2P folks exploit with glee.
NO GAME SHOULD BE ADVERTIZED AS F2P UNLESS IT IS TRULY FREE TO PLAY. ALL THE WAY THROUGH. WITHOUT NEEDING POTIONS OR SNOWFLAKES OR SMURFBERRIES (SOLD SEPERATELY) TO ENJOY THE GAMES FULL SCOPE AND POSSIBILITIES.
Of course that would put an end to F2P games. And that would be a good thing as they are mostly just CRAP with a promise of being wonderful .. for just a few more dollars.
I guess you can tell I hate the whole F2P greed machine ... and always will.
Again ... Not trying to critisize anyone on this forum. JUST MY OPINION
If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin
Thats like saying someone handing you a free sandwich is lying about being free because if you felt like it you could have given him $1 to thank him for the sandwich.
You ALWAYS have the option of giving $ for anything. By your logic, absolutely nothing is free because you could out of the kindness of your heart give someone some money for anything they do for you or give you.
Now if you were to grow up a bit, not be so narrow minded, and actually learn that we have this thing called free will which allows us to pick and choose what we spend $ on and wether or not something is worth the price, you could finally start being honest with yourself rather than trying to blame companies for your (and others) inability to control their own spending and make rational & logical decisions.
I have played both F2P & P2P games for years. If i start a new F2P game and see that their cash shop offers absolutely nothing of value to me, or the price is too high in exchange for how valuable/useful i feel it is for me, then i simply dont spend the $ and go on my way playing the game 100% free. I dont spend a bunch of money and then a month later look at my credit card bill in shock and awe trying to figure out how in the world those ingenious schemers at the MMO company managed to gather my credit card info and get all these charges through without my knowing like so many of the anti-f2p crowd likes to pretend happens.
Btw, a scam would be them lying to you about what is being bought or them having some extra hidden cost for an item that you are purchasing and are unaware of. Scam does not = the buyer being too ingorant or simple to think for themselves.
There is a true story in Perfect World, a boy who lived with his Grandmother got a hold of her debit card and spent her entire month's income on the game so when she went to pay her bills there was no money. Perfect World verified the problem and refunded the money.
This is not an uncommon happening. Don't know what the FTC can do about it though.
Free to Play is misleading. I don't care to use the model, but I wouldn't ban it but the name needs to change.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Please explain WHY it needs to change.
Can you play the game for free? Yes
Do you have the OPTION of spending money for special things if you want them? Yes, but that doesnt effect the 1st question, hence the optional part. If you stop spending $, you can still play exactly the same as before you started spending $.