The sky is the limit on random content generation. Most games are very rudimentary in how they do it. Even most roguelikes have a few simple algorithms for generating levels.
Diablo does some nifty randomization, but Din's Curse puts it to shame by adding random quests and environment variables.
Just imagine taking a random terrain generation utility like that in Minecraft, adding random quests like in Din's Curse and mix it with Blizzard's talent trees and loot system. Each server could be generated completely different. Cataclysmic events could change the landscape on a regular basis. It would be cooler than the early years of Asheron's Call.
The sky is the limit on random content generation. Most games are very rudimentary in how they do it. Even most roguelikes have a few simple algorithms for generating levels.
Diablo does some nifty randomization, but Din's Curse puts it to shame by adding random quests and environment variables.
Just imagine taking a random terrain generation utility like that in Minecraft, adding random quests like in Din's Curse and mix it with Blizzard's talent trees and loot system. Each server could be generated completely different. Cataclysmic events could change the landscape on a regular basis. It would be cooler than the early years of Asheron's Call.
I think the story/questing would feel kind of shoddy, but it would probably make a pretty amazing hack and slash type game. I wouldn't expect it to be brilliant storytelling though. Though to be honest, I guess MMO and brilliant storytelling usually aren't seen very close together.
Hey, aren't you the person who is a board game designer? Board games AND roguelikes? Now even if I disagree with you, I'm going to feel vaguely guilty, like maybe I should agree with you just because.
The sky is the limit on random content generation. Most games are very rudimentary in how they do it. Even most roguelikes have a few simple algorithms for generating levels.
Diablo does some nifty randomization, but Din's Curse puts it to shame by adding random quests and environment variables.
Just imagine taking a random terrain generation utility like that in Minecraft, adding random quests like in Din's Curse and mix it with Blizzard's talent trees and loot system. Each server could be generated completely different. Cataclysmic events could change the landscape on a regular basis. It would be cooler than the early years of Asheron's Call.
I think the story/questing would feel kind of shoddy, but it would probably make a pretty amazing hack and slash type game. I wouldn't expect it to be brilliant storytelling though. Though to be honest, I guess MMO and brilliant storytelling usually aren't seen very close together.
Hey, aren't you the person who is a board game designer? Board games AND roguelikes? Now even if I disagree with you, I'm going to feel vaguely guilty, like maybe I should agree with you just because.
The boardgames are just a hobby although I've created dozens. Only a couple are of publishable quality. There are only a few people in the world that can make a living off of designing boardgames. Even the top names in the industry usually only do it part time. The real stinker is that even if you create a moderately successful boardgame there is very little money to be made off of it compared to the time invested. All the full time jobs are on the business and production sides of it and I have no interest in doing that. Its a great hobby though and unlike playing MMOG's, when you're done you actually have something to show for all your hard work!
The boardgames are just a hobby although I've created dozens. Only a couple are of publishable quality. There are only a few people in the world that can make a living off of designing boardgames. Even the top names in the industry usually only do it part time. The real stinker is that even if you create a moderately successful boardgame there is very little money to be made off of it compared to the time invested. All the full time jobs are on the business and production sides of it and I have no interest in doing that. Its a great hobby though and unlike playing MMOG's, when you're done you actually have something to show for all your hard work!
I like playing boardgames, and designing imaginary MMOs in my head.
I am like your evil mirror twin.
(ps. It seems like Europeans get a lot more boardgames done. Maybe that's just my perception.)
As mentioned in my own thread, Design and Discuss Your Own MMO, I describe a MMO with no developer-created factions, but instead, the players would make their own. This is done somewhat in EVE Online with corporations, but I'm looking further than that. The ability to create businesses and corporations would be built in my MMO, however there would also be religious factions and Civilization factions (among others). A Civilization in my dream MMO, Civilization Online, would allow politics to take place and allow wars to commence.
Oh, and Meowhead, those threads I talked about earlier in PM to you are coming soon, I've just been busy playing World of Warcraft.
Probably because nothing about AO's missions gave the player the impression they'd want to experience that sort of gameplay again.
Dynamic can be done well, but AO's implementation was fairly far off the mark.
Yeah, AO's missions were all generated in a very few generic environments (buildings), and randomness was limited only as to where the mission objective was located and the mob type. I have seen some pretty decent random 2D environment generators, but never a 3D one. So that's one thing I was speaking of. And I was also talking about smaller player 'missions' that might use these dynamic features, and then hopefully coexist with more permanent designed content.
Emergence wrote:
Dynamically generated content is entirely possible in any video game, so of course it's possible in a MMORPG. There is no reason it is not possible.
It has come to my occurence I need to begin ignoring your posts, as brain isn't working for you good. *block*
Your ideas were most impressive, most impressive. Oh wait, you didn't have any. You just bitched and insulted. I'm truly going to miss you. But at least you'll have more time to beat your dog now.
MMO's also need to stop being coop games (40 people in a copied room) and become massive games. No instances. If you can't make an MMO without instances you shouldn't be making an MMO in the first place. Instances are nothing more, nothing less, simulation of SP/coop experiences.
Interesting. I'll take that challenge. Instances are automatically bad and detract from gameplay, hmm? Tell you what, I'll challenge your preconceptions, touch upon how to make phasing AWESOME, combine this with the dynamically created content mentioned earlier, and also create a whole new system for leveling up, skill creation and oh... let's say inventory management. Just because I can.
I'll expound on this more later, since I'm about to drive off to daycare, but I can give a broad outline and touch it up later. If I like what I randomly write out, I might even make a topic on it, to join my other neglected and mostly uncommented upon experimental game designs in the game designer forum.
Okay. One problem with MMOs is they are so very, very literally attached to the real world. If you open a door, you go to the other side of it. If you walk across a forest, you get to the other side. Maybe, if a game is really fancy, you can teleport. Ooh, now you can just skip and go from one area to another... still all perfectly logical, real world analogues.
I'm going to suggest a game design where everybody and most things are instances waiting to happen. That's right. MORE instances than ever before. So many instances that the potential amount of instances surpasses all instances in all previous MMOs, put together. Why is this a good idea? Well, let me explain further.
First of all, the problem with most instances is that they are not joinable by other people after the fact, and that they're really all just Xerox copies of other versions of the instance... that if two people enter the same dungeon at different times, they'll be in different dungeons that are identical.
I'm going to suggest that's using instancing backwards.
In my theoretical game, everybody is... oh, I dunno... psychics or dreamwalkers or something. Astral travellers. You are able to detach your soul, and enter other people, or other objects. based on the object, or the person, a random instance is generated on the spot. The instance collapses when all users exit it, but as long as one person is in it, anybody else entering the same object enters the same instance.
To explain this further, let me explain what a person would look like as an instance.
There would be some sort of featureless foyer, a big door, and some sort of guardian demon/monster/whatever that represents the player's resistance to being entered.
If the player... or players, can defeat that monster (Players can enter their own instance if they want, for what it's worth), they get access to the inner parts of the player. Depending upon their level, skills, abilities, general condition and what they're doing at the time, the instance can look different ways. A very peaceful, contemplative person would have a nice, neutrally lit plain, maybe a few beautiful pillars here and there...
Anything the player does can affect his own instance real time. Getting in a fight? The adrenaline and anger can cause creatures to spawn in the player's instance. (This can get into a pretty brutal cycle if you keep spawning monsters because you're fighting them inside your mind. ) Any change in emotional state can cause materials of that type to spawn within the instance, whether it's fear, anger, desire, relaxation or ennui. Sometimes manifesting as creatures, or as crafting materials.
Various gated areas each protected by various beings gives access to your 'mental inventory' (Why can somebody hold 50 suits of armor, 100 swords and a big pile of random crafting items? Because they're not real, they're objects you store in your imagination and recreate using your mental powers), and even your skills. Skills can be crafted out of emotional components, allowing you to design and customize special abilities. That's right, a player's list of skills is a modifiable thing consisting of crafted objects (Manifesting in the dream world as giant fantastical sculptures in a museum or something like that), and people can go and jack them up if you're foolish enough to leave yourself that unprotected. (Hint. When you get a message 'Hey, people are punching you in the skill hotbar', go in and defend yourself. <.< ). Even your vision can be invaded, and that gives a player who gets there the 'key' to your sight. So they can literally see what you are looking at.
Now, you might be thinking this sounds like the WORST PvP based game ever (So I was standing around and people beat the basic attack out of me, then stole my vision and set my whole inventory on fire), but people would be significantly protected against most invasions... the main point to being an instance is that you can lower your own defenses and invite friends in there. Imagine a party of your friends fighting your inner demons, crafting awesome new skills for you and rearranging your emotions and abilities on the spot to empower you so you're just generally more badass.
Of course, you might want to really be careful with just who you're inviting into your own head...
Anyway, fights between a psychic and say... some NPC psychic can be pretty epic. You could have lots of people, working together in weird ways. A couple people fighting the psychic in the 'real' world, fighting with fireballs and telekinesis or... guns firing mental energy or whatever. A couple teams of people working inside those people, making them powerful enough to equal a team of people on their own... and a third team, working inside the enemy and assaulting their mental defenses simultaneously. All coordinated with players who trust each other enough to give access to their sight and hearing to friends in the other parties.
40... 50 people, three different instances, yet all working in a coordinated fashion and achieving goals together. Any one of those instances which could be entered by any other psychics coming along, to add to the unpredictability. Nothing like watching your friends get ganked because they're busy decorating your psyche.
Oh, and the phasing? People with different levels of access and abilities would see the mind in different ways. Some people could manipulate psychic energies in different ways. Just off hand... say a character who has the psyche of a masochist can transform pain into pleasure. They're both crafting materials/currency, but maybe you need more pleasure and less pain for whatever you're trying to do. Why SHOULD people be able to see things the exact same way? These are video games. Be creative. If people can see different things, and manipulate different things, they can solve different problems, working together on the same goal and contributing in very different ways, creating teamwork on a level that makes the tank/healer/DPS trinity look like two kindergarten kids getting in a slapfight.
Too much rambling, but uh... hey, I was trying to type this all in a couple minutes while my wife took a shower. I'll make a more coherent version later.
Still... there's your originality folks. You all need to step it up, 'dynamically generated content' is pretty simple. (And 'Combine one favorite MMO with another favorite MMO' is not original at all, it's the very definition of derivative.
On paper, the existing framework and future plans of Xyson has nearly 100% coverage of all things I would like to see in an MMO. I do stress however in that statement I am including features not yet in game but discussed by the developer such as a world that moves forward slowly in the progress of re-creating civilzation etc.
The only thing I would add is the ability to 'play the monsters' which is in one sentence the entire idea of World of Darkness.
I really have to admit that at this time, there is no longer any idea I have or have had that is not at least one paper by a developer planning to make it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
EQ was like this. If you haven't experienced it, you have a rather weak perspective on the matter.
Having only a single instance of anything was a mixed bag. The good was meeting people and developing a good community. The neutral was dealing with trains from others, and epic gear actually being damn rare. The bad was gear competition.
Though considering everyone tended to be involved in the in game community, KSing, and greifing was rare, as you can get ostricized for being an ass. It makes a big difference when you can't just pug with people that don't know you, be it cross server, or insulating multi instances.
You really only have to go back as far as AoC to have experienced public dungeons. Every game I have played with them I thought was terrible. There is nothing worse than spending an hour of your time getting to a boss only to find it camped, stolen, or already killed with a long respawn timer. The days of wasting a player's time like this is long past and will never return.
The ONLY way I could see public dungeons work in future MMOG's is if the dungeon itself were absolutely huge (or numerous like AC's dungeons). Also, loot drops would have to be random. If you have one boss that drops items X, Y, or Z and another boss that drops A, B, or C, then players have an incentive to stay and camp the boss since its the only way to get the item they want. If its a popular item then its guaranteed to be camped continuously.
These issues can be overcome, but its not like you could take a game like WoW, turn everything into a public instance and improve the community. That just isn't going to happen.
Greed can be an ugly thing and rarely does it help a community. Back in EQ I had a few guildmates that found a hidden boss that dropped a rare mace. They wouldn't tell anyone where the boss is because they were affraid it would be camped. They wouldn't even tell me, their guild leader. Had it been a private instance that never would have been an issue.
That reason is exactly why asking in chat and having a rogue was useful in EQ. Half a rogue's job in EQ was checking for spawns for a group. That's 5 minutes of waiting to hear from the rogue, or 1 minute in waiting for replys in chat to see if there are campers.
The real issue in my eyes is great gear dropping from a single mob that's on 1 hour to 1 week spawn timers. That's why I pref games where the gear is ONLY crafted. I say make raids and bosses drop recipes, or flag players so that they can learn to make the gear. That way it keeps the boss relevent, but not needed to be killed by every member in a group for a single item every time it dies. Or hell, make it drop gear, but allow it to be deconstructed into a recipe that allows the player to craft it. Bam 3 different ways to fix the problem.
Dynamically Generated Content - I'm not absolutely sure it currently would be technically possible, but I'd love to see it. For example you get a quest to explore a section of an old, half buried ruin. And when you enter the secret entrance you have been directed to, the dungeons interior has been custom generated for you or your group (by linking of 'tilesets' and types). Along with custom content placed within it (mobs, traps, chests, main objective, etc.).
wow i really want to see different game developers' take on this... this would revolutionaize the MMO genre...
i think Anarchy Online's "missions" did all that. i'm kinda surprised it didn't become a standard feature for MMOs.
Probably because nothing about AO's missions gave the player the impression they'd want to experience that sort of gameplay again.
Dynamic can be done well, but AO's implementation was fairly far off the mark.
oh really?
what about the mission gameplay was any different than normal "gameplay" other than the fact the environments and mob spawns were different everytime?
When people complain about a game being a clone it doesn't necessarily mean they are looking for something new or original. MMO's started out as world simulators and I think it would be ok if successful popular dynamics were repeated if the progression of the simulation (i.e. more detail, depth and fidelity to the chosen environment) met the natural expectation of players of computer games. I that I think when a new game comes out and it fails to deliver on that one key aspect, with greater and greater use of instancing and zoning, less attention paid to community and immersiob, then people aren't going to be impressed.
Originality is not possible anymore? - Then I'd love to see a developer rip off the best ideas of Ultima Online, Asheron's Call 1, and Pre-CU Star Wars Galaxies. Why the f*%# is this whole WoW/EQ1 thing so written in stone now? I'm sick to death of it.
Screw originality, I'm with you, make a game that is along the lines of the above, but I'd throw DAOC in there because I'd sorely love to see a DAOC 2.
I agree, what's getting wearisome is the neverending string of EQ1/WOW style theme parks which seems to be the only thing the Dev's make and the market is willing to buy.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'd eliminate skills and abilities. In fact, I'd eliminate character progression entirely but on the same token I'd eliminate all RNG simulations from the game.
All activities in the game would be minigames meaning the true character progression comes from the player's actual ability to master that particular minigame.
In other words, if you want to get really good at hacking rather than earning some XP, increasing your hacking skill, and having the RNG dictate pass/fail checks you just practice the minigame and actually get better at it.
There can still be all types of gear and whatnot but all skill and ability in the game is 100% player derived.
Edit: The Mass Effect series' and Bioshock's RNG check substitutions with minigames are examples of what I'm proposing.
Dynamically Generated Content - I'm not absolutely sure it currently would be technically possible, but I'd love to see it. For example you get a quest to explore a section of an old, half buried ruin. And when you enter the secret entrance you have been directed to, the dungeons interior has been custom generated for you or your group (by linking of 'tilesets' and types). Along with custom content placed within it (mobs, traps, chests, main objective, etc.).
Originality is not possible anymore? - Then I'd love to see a developer rip off the best ideas of Ultima Online, Asheron's Call 1, and Pre-CU Star Wars Galaxies. Why the f*%# is this whole WoW/EQ1 thing so written in stone now? I'm sick to death of it.
They are quiet a few underground games and mmos with uniques ideas, from character development (xp progression), combat systems, player interactions and driven world, exploring and building, overall itemisation with quality and wears and tears, new death system, eating and drinking features...
You just have to dig for them.
Originality is definitly there, its just underground.
The only really original AAA title is Eve, so its not like its impossible to make.
Why do you put EQ together with WoW. They are both extremely different while it's true WoW copied everything it had from EverQuest but still WoW defined and standardized the MMORPG genre.
WoW is Quest Driven, EverQuest is not.
WoW had 2 rigid factions that you cant change fighting each other for PvP. EverQuest had flexible hundreds of factions that you can improve/degrade.
WoW invented the Auction House, EverQuest trading was more about person-to-person interaction.
WoW death penalty is a joke, EverQuest death penalty was extremely harsh.
WoW introduced the beginning of the end with EXTREME hand holding and predefined player experience. EverQuest Set you Free.
WoW Itemization is the infamous Green, Blue, Purple. EverQuest Itemization was random, individually designed, doesn't follow a specific algrothem and was more exciting.
WoW is a solo game, you can solo up to max level. EverQuest soloing was hard for some classes and impossible to others.
WoW raids started with 40 then ended with 25 players. EverQuest raids used to be 100-200 people.
WoW is cartoonish, colorful with pop-culture dances and referances. EverQuest had deep lore, dark and dangerous.
WoW made leveling too easy and trivial. In EverQuest reaching max level was a hard feat to achieve.
WoW dungeons can be completed in one run with almost no secret/hidden places. EverQuest dungeons were huge and lasted for levels, required days of game sessions and filled with traps and secret passages/doors.
I think Dynamic Events is yet another boring thing. Just like WoW's Quest System. Please, less Scripted Game Content and more Individually Designed content. Yes, it might be static but at least it will be unique. Make enough of these Individually designed static content and the players will have a lot of time having fun. But adding "Dynamic Events" will get old very quickly I've seen it a lot before and it always feels Artificial and Boring. Static Content and a lot of it > Dynamic Content.
Also, I also believe a good MMORPG is an MMORPG that takes Sandbox Elements, Themepark Elements and Social Elements and combine them together. Extreme Sandbox is Boring and Empty. Extreme ThemePark is boring and restrictive with short interest spam. An MMORPG without Social element is a ghost town and stupid. Combine all these together and you get the magical experience.
I have written about this quite often, but I'll copy+paste my current ideas of an ideal MMO again ...
----
INTERFACE
- Skinnable
- Configurable (hotkeys etc)
- But NOT fully scriptable ! One keystroke, one action !
RULESYSTEM
- Highly customizeable character.
- Races could be : Human, Giant, Dwarf, Gnome, Elf, Mammal-like (Cat/Wolf/Fox/Bear/Pig/etc-like with tails)
- Races get subraces. Races get their own pool of racial talents, from which each player can choose a subset.
- There is a number of classes. Each has signature abilities and its own complex, unique, distinctive gameplay.
- Classes could be : Paladin, Darkknight, Berserker, Ranger, Rogue, Bard, Monk, Cleric, Shaman, Druid, Wizard, Psion
- There are also subclasses and further class customization options, which can be reset if the player wants to move into a different direction.
- The full tank and healer classes all are about equally good at their primary task.
- No customization of tanks or healers changes their performance in their primary task, so they are free to choose.
- No class is just "pure". Especially tanks and healers get secondary tasks they need to fulfill to excell in their primary task.
- Combat is highly dynamic. Abilities return with a certain random variance. One cant just learn one sequence of skills, even less just spam the same button.
- Many classes will also get point systems where certain abilities and conditions accumulate points while others use them up.
- All buffs work on the group only. Almost all classes will get buffs everyone in their group automatically benefits from. Other buffs have to be activated and then block part of the energy of that character.
- Opportunities like critical hits, successful feint, identifying opponent spell, opponent staggers, self is staggering etc open special abilities or change existing abilities.
- There are class synergies - like, one class may be able to make the opponent stagger, the next may be able to exploit the opponent staggering.
- Classes are balanced for PvP first, but also for PvE. No ability is useless in either PvP or PvE, even if their value might differ.
- Crafting is a complex and powerful game in itself.
- Each crafted item is unique, depending upon the crafters and materials involved, and upon a certain amount of random.
- No crafter can work alone. For all but the most simplest items you need input from other crafters.
- Crafters are guild efforts. Crafting recipes and certain special ingredients are gained through especially hard guild quests, such as raids.
- Crafters are ever improving. The more work you put into it, the even better you will be.
- Crafted items can be enchanted. Especially they can be overenchanted. You can attempt to enchant an item even more, but there is a chance to break it.
- Crafted items can be souldbound, but they dont have to. Only quest rewards are always soul bound.
GRAPHICS
- Lowend graphics with lowend hardware requirements, allowing to support many characters at the same time on screen.
- Comfortable Facegen and Bodygen at character creation.
- All details visible, including worn rings, amulets etc
- Seamless world with realistic viewing distances
SETTING
- Classic fantasy
- Huge world with all kinds of environments (jungle, iceland, desert, tundra etc, and many fantasy environments like flying cities, cloud castles, crystal mountains, lava pits etc)
- Dynamic quest system that generates quests at random from quest templates; nobody has the same quests as you have.
- Support for groups, raids, fellowships, guilds, alliances
- Mass pvp events over ressources and nation control
- Players can go playerkiller and join the bandit faction, unable to enter normal cities and starter areas, and trading at hefty disadvantages with fences
- Player housing, player city building, player nation building
- Ressources outside of player controlled areas are better, but more risky
---
But really, thats just my "ideal" MMO, theres plenty of room, just as long as the game is made by a good designer who knows the craft and knows how to make good stories, dungeons and a good rulesystem below everything.
MMO's also need to stop being coop games (40 people in a copied room) and become massive games. No instances. If you can't make an MMO without instances you shouldn't be making an MMO in the first place. Instances are nothing more, nothing less, simulation of SP/coop experiences.
Interesting. I'll take that challenge. Instances are automatically bad and detract from gameplay, hmm? Tell you what, I'll challenge your preconceptions, touch upon how to make phasing AWESOME, combine this with the dynamically created content mentioned earlier, and also create a whole new system for leveling up, skill creation and oh... let's say inventory management. Just because I can.
You can create a "theme" where instances/phasing make sense. But generally instancing is a weak game design. When I say Massively Mutliplayer Online Game it means I want to interact with a lot of people. It's been awhile since I've felt I belong to a world and a community. Playing a lot of MMORPGs recently and I'm always alone or with 4-5 other people. I've had better communication with people playing Diablo2 than I did with a lot of recent MMORPGs.
The problem with many people is that they are still thinking inside the WoW box and are unimaginative. An MMORPG with un-instanced Zones/Dungeons is going to add a big boost to community feeling and immersion. Ask anyone who played EverQuest while it is not even close to a perfect example it had a lot of problems yet it's almost always praised when mentioned by the players who had the privilage to play EQ prior to Shadows of Luclin expansion. Everyone misses Trains do you know why? because it adds to the thrill!! "TRAIN!!!"... "WHERE?!?"... that was exciting it keeps you on your toes and that what makes the game fun, Thrill.
I remember being in a dungeon in EQ when we were struggling with a long fight losing group members slowly one after another. Finally the healer drops and .. wow it felt bad watching the group wipe and having to corpse run... but somehow, the last 2 members staying alive got healed ... it was some wandering Cleric who saw the situation and helped our group. He rezzed the group and buffed us we thank him for that gave him some PP but he refused, cheered and left. Now, that kind of interaction we miss in instanced dungeons.
People need to remember that we want the Experience the Thrill... not the "Balance" or the "Conveniences". There are a lot of games who cater to player "conveneience" and "balance" A LOT OF THEM. Just go play those, I just want ONE game that can deliver an exciting gaming experience with Struggle, Thrill and Randomness just like EQ did.
I certainly agree with procedurally-generated content for MMOs. I want it applied such that the entire player population is traveling as a mass along a wide strip of land, exploring, fighting and building as they go. Procedural towns, procedural lairs, procedural tunnels, everything. Nobody knows what's around the next corner. No map sites, no farming of items, nothing. It's all one-off stuff. I can't stand hand-crafted worlds that sit stagnant and repeatable for years at a stretch.
A second thing that I really want from MMOs is some depth of gameplay. I want to be given some versatile items and capabilities that I can employ in inventive ways to solve the problems that I face. I don't want the game designers determining that this encounter is defeated by doing X, Y and Z. I just want some problems in the game world that we can solve any way that we think is interesting, challenging and fun. But that requires some significant state information in the game. Without state information, the possible permutations of action and reaction are hugely limited. And in an MMO, managing lots of state information is a nightmare.
A corollary to the depth notion is that a game would lose the focused achievement grind. For those who like that, great. I'd like to see a game that lacks it so that players can be a bit more casual about racing forward and instead dwell on tackling the current problem. We don't have to blow through the content and can instead focus on experiencing it. That's why I want the depth - so there's something to experience.
I'd eliminate skills and abilities. In fact, I'd eliminate character progression entirely but on the same token I'd eliminate all RNG simulations from the game.
All activities in the game would be minigames meaning the true character progression comes from the player's actual ability to master that particular minigame.
In other words, if you want to get really good at hacking rather than earning some XP, increasing your hacking skill, and having the RNG dictate pass/fail checks you just practice the minigame and actually get better at it.
There can still be all types of gear and whatnot but all skill and ability in the game is 100% player derived.
Edit: The Mass Effect series' and Bioshock's RNG check substitutions with minigames are examples of what I'm proposing.
i think Anarchy Online's "missions" did all that. i'm kinda surprised it didn't become a standard feature for MMOs.
Probably because nothing about AO's missions gave the player the impression they'd want to experience that sort of gameplay again.
Dynamic can be done well, but AO's implementation was fairly far off the mark.
oh really?
what about the mission gameplay was any different than normal "gameplay" other than the fact the environments and mob spawns were different everytime?
Very little was different other than that -- which is precisely why it sucked, heh.
Really anyone who's played Diablo 2 or Nethack, and subsequently tried to suffer through AO's bland mission content, truly understands what a lackluster implementation AO's missions were. (Hellgate is another example of lackluster dynamic content implementation.)
One of the keys is that the dynamic elements actually vary your gameplay, and AO was a very faceroll-ish sort of combat system (so the "random" enemies you faced were more reskinned variants than enemies who you had to approach in different ways.) Whereas in Nethack (and to a lesser degree DIablo 2) you definitely hit points where you're like "Whoa...it's a lightning enchanted enemy I have to be careful of that guy and hopefully kill him at range!"
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Just give me a castle the size of Mount St Helen's to decorate and I would be in heaven. Oh and don't forget to let me make a carpenter to make the stuff. Make sure it's big enough to take years to fill up LOL.
Just kidding but I do so love decorating more than making the buildings themselves or maps and such. I have tried some of the MMO crafting games that people have recommended but they don't have much RPG to them. They just don't hold my attention like decorating and fun interactive crafting itself that is viable to all.
Not that this has not been done already but if someone was to make a new really good MMORPG I would definately want these in it for when I just don't feel like grinding. I don't mind grinding at all infact I like earning the things I get but I can do so much then need a break for a while between.
Comments
Not only played, but I created one once.
The sky is the limit on random content generation. Most games are very rudimentary in how they do it. Even most roguelikes have a few simple algorithms for generating levels.
Diablo does some nifty randomization, but Din's Curse puts it to shame by adding random quests and environment variables.
Just imagine taking a random terrain generation utility like that in Minecraft, adding random quests like in Din's Curse and mix it with Blizzard's talent trees and loot system. Each server could be generated completely different. Cataclysmic events could change the landscape on a regular basis. It would be cooler than the early years of Asheron's Call.
I think the story/questing would feel kind of shoddy, but it would probably make a pretty amazing hack and slash type game. I wouldn't expect it to be brilliant storytelling though. Though to be honest, I guess MMO and brilliant storytelling usually aren't seen very close together.
Hey, aren't you the person who is a board game designer? Board games AND roguelikes? Now even if I disagree with you, I'm going to feel vaguely guilty, like maybe I should agree with you just because.
The boardgames are just a hobby although I've created dozens. Only a couple are of publishable quality. There are only a few people in the world that can make a living off of designing boardgames. Even the top names in the industry usually only do it part time. The real stinker is that even if you create a moderately successful boardgame there is very little money to be made off of it compared to the time invested. All the full time jobs are on the business and production sides of it and I have no interest in doing that. Its a great hobby though and unlike playing MMOG's, when you're done you actually have something to show for all your hard work!
I like playing boardgames, and designing imaginary MMOs in my head.
I am like your evil mirror twin.
(ps. It seems like Europeans get a lot more boardgames done. Maybe that's just my perception.)
Player-Created Factions
As mentioned in my own thread, Design and Discuss Your Own MMO, I describe a MMO with no developer-created factions, but instead, the players would make their own. This is done somewhat in EVE Online with corporations, but I'm looking further than that. The ability to create businesses and corporations would be built in my MMO, however there would also be religious factions and Civilization factions (among others). A Civilization in my dream MMO, Civilization Online, would allow politics to take place and allow wars to commence.
Oh, and Meowhead, those threads I talked about earlier in PM to you are coming soon, I've just been busy playing World of Warcraft.
Yeah, AO's missions were all generated in a very few generic environments (buildings), and randomness was limited only as to where the mission objective was located and the mob type. I have seen some pretty decent random 2D environment generators, but never a 3D one. So that's one thing I was speaking of. And I was also talking about smaller player 'missions' that might use these dynamic features, and then hopefully coexist with more permanent designed content.
Your ideas were most impressive, most impressive. Oh wait, you didn't have any. You just bitched and insulted. I'm truly going to miss you. But at least you'll have more time to beat your dog now.
Interesting. I'll take that challenge. Instances are automatically bad and detract from gameplay, hmm? Tell you what, I'll challenge your preconceptions, touch upon how to make phasing AWESOME, combine this with the dynamically created content mentioned earlier, and also create a whole new system for leveling up, skill creation and oh... let's say inventory management. Just because I can.
I'll expound on this more later, since I'm about to drive off to daycare, but I can give a broad outline and touch it up later. If I like what I randomly write out, I might even make a topic on it, to join my other neglected and mostly uncommented upon experimental game designs in the game designer forum.
Okay. One problem with MMOs is they are so very, very literally attached to the real world. If you open a door, you go to the other side of it. If you walk across a forest, you get to the other side. Maybe, if a game is really fancy, you can teleport. Ooh, now you can just skip and go from one area to another... still all perfectly logical, real world analogues.
I'm going to suggest a game design where everybody and most things are instances waiting to happen. That's right. MORE instances than ever before. So many instances that the potential amount of instances surpasses all instances in all previous MMOs, put together. Why is this a good idea? Well, let me explain further.
First of all, the problem with most instances is that they are not joinable by other people after the fact, and that they're really all just Xerox copies of other versions of the instance... that if two people enter the same dungeon at different times, they'll be in different dungeons that are identical.
I'm going to suggest that's using instancing backwards.
In my theoretical game, everybody is... oh, I dunno... psychics or dreamwalkers or something. Astral travellers. You are able to detach your soul, and enter other people, or other objects. based on the object, or the person, a random instance is generated on the spot. The instance collapses when all users exit it, but as long as one person is in it, anybody else entering the same object enters the same instance.
To explain this further, let me explain what a person would look like as an instance.
There would be some sort of featureless foyer, a big door, and some sort of guardian demon/monster/whatever that represents the player's resistance to being entered.
If the player... or players, can defeat that monster (Players can enter their own instance if they want, for what it's worth), they get access to the inner parts of the player. Depending upon their level, skills, abilities, general condition and what they're doing at the time, the instance can look different ways. A very peaceful, contemplative person would have a nice, neutrally lit plain, maybe a few beautiful pillars here and there...
Anything the player does can affect his own instance real time. Getting in a fight? The adrenaline and anger can cause creatures to spawn in the player's instance. (This can get into a pretty brutal cycle if you keep spawning monsters because you're fighting them inside your mind.
) Any change in emotional state can cause materials of that type to spawn within the instance, whether it's fear, anger, desire, relaxation or ennui. Sometimes manifesting as creatures, or as crafting materials.
Various gated areas each protected by various beings gives access to your 'mental inventory' (Why can somebody hold 50 suits of armor, 100 swords and a big pile of random crafting items? Because they're not real, they're objects you store in your imagination and recreate using your mental powers), and even your skills. Skills can be crafted out of emotional components, allowing you to design and customize special abilities. That's right, a player's list of skills is a modifiable thing consisting of crafted objects (Manifesting in the dream world as giant fantastical sculptures in a museum or something like that), and people can go and jack them up if you're foolish enough to leave yourself that unprotected. (Hint. When you get a message 'Hey, people are punching you in the skill hotbar', go in and defend yourself. <.< ). Even your vision can be invaded, and that gives a player who gets there the 'key' to your sight. So they can literally see what you are looking at.
Now, you might be thinking this sounds like the WORST PvP based game ever (So I was standing around and people beat the basic attack out of me, then stole my vision and set my whole inventory on fire), but people would be significantly protected against most invasions... the main point to being an instance is that you can lower your own defenses and invite friends in there. Imagine a party of your friends fighting your inner demons, crafting awesome new skills for you and rearranging your emotions and abilities on the spot to empower you so you're just generally more badass.
Of course, you might want to really be careful with just who you're inviting into your own head...
Anyway, fights between a psychic and say... some NPC psychic can be pretty epic. You could have lots of people, working together in weird ways. A couple people fighting the psychic in the 'real' world, fighting with fireballs and telekinesis or... guns firing mental energy or whatever. A couple teams of people working inside those people, making them powerful enough to equal a team of people on their own... and a third team, working inside the enemy and assaulting their mental defenses simultaneously. All coordinated with players who trust each other enough to give access to their sight and hearing to friends in the other parties.
40... 50 people, three different instances, yet all working in a coordinated fashion and achieving goals together. Any one of those instances which could be entered by any other psychics coming along, to add to the unpredictability. Nothing like watching your friends get ganked because they're busy decorating your psyche.
Oh, and the phasing? People with different levels of access and abilities would see the mind in different ways. Some people could manipulate psychic energies in different ways. Just off hand... say a character who has the psyche of a masochist can transform pain into pleasure. They're both crafting materials/currency, but maybe you need more pleasure and less pain for whatever you're trying to do. Why SHOULD people be able to see things the exact same way? These are video games. Be creative. If people can see different things, and manipulate different things, they can solve different problems, working together on the same goal and contributing in very different ways, creating teamwork on a level that makes the tank/healer/DPS trinity look like two kindergarten kids getting in a slapfight.
Too much rambling, but uh... hey, I was trying to type this all in a couple minutes while my wife took a shower. I'll make a more coherent version later.
Still... there's your originality folks. You all need to step it up, 'dynamically generated content' is pretty simple.
(And 'Combine one favorite MMO with another favorite MMO' is not original at all, it's the very definition of derivative. 
On paper, the existing framework and future plans of Xyson has nearly 100% coverage of all things I would like to see in an MMO. I do stress however in that statement I am including features not yet in game but discussed by the developer such as a world that moves forward slowly in the progress of re-creating civilzation etc.
The only thing I would add is the ability to 'play the monsters' which is in one sentence the entire idea of World of Darkness.
I really have to admit that at this time, there is no longer any idea I have or have had that is not at least one paper by a developer planning to make it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
That reason is exactly why asking in chat and having a rogue was useful in EQ. Half a rogue's job in EQ was checking for spawns for a group. That's 5 minutes of waiting to hear from the rogue, or 1 minute in waiting for replys in chat to see if there are campers.
The real issue in my eyes is great gear dropping from a single mob that's on 1 hour to 1 week spawn timers. That's why I pref games where the gear is ONLY crafted. I say make raids and bosses drop recipes, or flag players so that they can learn to make the gear. That way it keeps the boss relevent, but not needed to be killed by every member in a group for a single item every time it dies. Or hell, make it drop gear, but allow it to be deconstructed into a recipe that allows the player to craft it. Bam 3 different ways to fix the problem.
oh really?
what about the mission gameplay was any different than normal "gameplay" other than the fact the environments and mob spawns were different everytime?
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When people complain about a game being a clone it doesn't necessarily mean they are looking for something new or original. MMO's started out as world simulators and I think it would be ok if successful popular dynamics were repeated if the progression of the simulation (i.e. more detail, depth and fidelity to the chosen environment) met the natural expectation of players of computer games. I that I think when a new game comes out and it fails to deliver on that one key aspect, with greater and greater use of instancing and zoning, less attention paid to community and immersiob, then people aren't going to be impressed.
Screw originality, I'm with you, make a game that is along the lines of the above, but I'd throw DAOC in there because I'd sorely love to see a DAOC 2.
I agree, what's getting wearisome is the neverending string of EQ1/WOW style theme parks which seems to be the only thing the Dev's make and the market is willing to buy.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'd eliminate skills and abilities. In fact, I'd eliminate character progression entirely but on the same token I'd eliminate all RNG simulations from the game.
All activities in the game would be minigames meaning the true character progression comes from the player's actual ability to master that particular minigame.
In other words, if you want to get really good at hacking rather than earning some XP, increasing your hacking skill, and having the RNG dictate pass/fail checks you just practice the minigame and actually get better at it.
There can still be all types of gear and whatnot but all skill and ability in the game is 100% player derived.
Edit: The Mass Effect series' and Bioshock's RNG check substitutions with minigames are examples of what I'm proposing.
They are quiet a few underground games and mmos with uniques ideas, from character development (xp progression), combat systems, player interactions and driven world, exploring and building, overall itemisation with quality and wears and tears, new death system, eating and drinking features...
You just have to dig for them.
Originality is definitly there, its just underground.
The only really original AAA title is Eve, so its not like its impossible to make.
Why do you put EQ together with WoW. They are both extremely different while it's true WoW copied everything it had from EverQuest but still WoW defined and standardized the MMORPG genre.
WoW is Quest Driven, EverQuest is not.
WoW had 2 rigid factions that you cant change fighting each other for PvP. EverQuest had flexible hundreds of factions that you can improve/degrade.
WoW invented the Auction House, EverQuest trading was more about person-to-person interaction.
WoW death penalty is a joke, EverQuest death penalty was extremely harsh.
WoW introduced the beginning of the end with EXTREME hand holding and predefined player experience. EverQuest Set you Free.
WoW Itemization is the infamous Green, Blue, Purple. EverQuest Itemization was random, individually designed, doesn't follow a specific algrothem and was more exciting.
WoW is a solo game, you can solo up to max level. EverQuest soloing was hard for some classes and impossible to others.
WoW raids started with 40 then ended with 25 players. EverQuest raids used to be 100-200 people.
WoW is cartoonish, colorful with pop-culture dances and referances. EverQuest had deep lore, dark and dangerous.
WoW made leveling too easy and trivial. In EverQuest reaching max level was a hard feat to achieve.
WoW dungeons can be completed in one run with almost no secret/hidden places. EverQuest dungeons were huge and lasted for levels, required days of game sessions and filled with traps and secret passages/doors.
I think Dynamic Events is yet another boring thing. Just like WoW's Quest System. Please, less Scripted Game Content and more Individually Designed content. Yes, it might be static but at least it will be unique. Make enough of these Individually designed static content and the players will have a lot of time having fun. But adding "Dynamic Events" will get old very quickly I've seen it a lot before and it always feels Artificial and Boring. Static Content and a lot of it > Dynamic Content.
Also, I also believe a good MMORPG is an MMORPG that takes Sandbox Elements, Themepark Elements and Social Elements and combine them together. Extreme Sandbox is Boring and Empty. Extreme ThemePark is boring and restrictive with short interest spam. An MMORPG without Social element is a ghost town and stupid. Combine all these together and you get the magical experience.
Teh he.
I have written about this quite often, but I'll copy+paste my current ideas of an ideal MMO again ...
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INTERFACE
- Skinnable
- Configurable (hotkeys etc)
- But NOT fully scriptable ! One keystroke, one action !
RULESYSTEM
- Highly customizeable character.
- Races could be : Human, Giant, Dwarf, Gnome, Elf, Mammal-like (Cat/Wolf/Fox/Bear/Pig/etc-like with tails)
- Races get subraces. Races get their own pool of racial talents, from which each player can choose a subset.
- There is a number of classes. Each has signature abilities and its own complex, unique, distinctive gameplay.
- Classes could be : Paladin, Darkknight, Berserker, Ranger, Rogue, Bard, Monk, Cleric, Shaman, Druid, Wizard, Psion
- There are also subclasses and further class customization options, which can be reset if the player wants to move into a different direction.
- The full tank and healer classes all are about equally good at their primary task.
- No customization of tanks or healers changes their performance in their primary task, so they are free to choose.
- No class is just "pure". Especially tanks and healers get secondary tasks they need to fulfill to excell in their primary task.
- Combat is highly dynamic. Abilities return with a certain random variance. One cant just learn one sequence of skills, even less just spam the same button.
- Many classes will also get point systems where certain abilities and conditions accumulate points while others use them up.
- All buffs work on the group only. Almost all classes will get buffs everyone in their group automatically benefits from. Other buffs have to be activated and then block part of the energy of that character.
- Opportunities like critical hits, successful feint, identifying opponent spell, opponent staggers, self is staggering etc open special abilities or change existing abilities.
- There are class synergies - like, one class may be able to make the opponent stagger, the next may be able to exploit the opponent staggering.
- Classes are balanced for PvP first, but also for PvE. No ability is useless in either PvP or PvE, even if their value might differ.
- Crafting is a complex and powerful game in itself.
- Each crafted item is unique, depending upon the crafters and materials involved, and upon a certain amount of random.
- No crafter can work alone. For all but the most simplest items you need input from other crafters.
- Crafters are guild efforts. Crafting recipes and certain special ingredients are gained through especially hard guild quests, such as raids.
- Crafters are ever improving. The more work you put into it, the even better you will be.
- Crafted items can be enchanted. Especially they can be overenchanted. You can attempt to enchant an item even more, but there is a chance to break it.
- Crafted items can be souldbound, but they dont have to. Only quest rewards are always soul bound.
GRAPHICS
- Lowend graphics with lowend hardware requirements, allowing to support many characters at the same time on screen.
- Comfortable Facegen and Bodygen at character creation.
- All details visible, including worn rings, amulets etc
- Seamless world with realistic viewing distances
SETTING
- Classic fantasy
- Huge world with all kinds of environments (jungle, iceland, desert, tundra etc, and many fantasy environments like flying cities, cloud castles, crystal mountains, lava pits etc)
- Dynamic quest system that generates quests at random from quest templates; nobody has the same quests as you have.
- Support for groups, raids, fellowships, guilds, alliances
- Mass pvp events over ressources and nation control
- Players can go playerkiller and join the bandit faction, unable to enter normal cities and starter areas, and trading at hefty disadvantages with fences
- Player housing, player city building, player nation building
- Ressources outside of player controlled areas are better, but more risky
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But really, thats just my "ideal" MMO, theres plenty of room, just as long as the game is made by a good designer who knows the craft and knows how to make good stories, dungeons and a good rulesystem below everything.
You can create a "theme" where instances/phasing make sense. But generally instancing is a weak game design. When I say Massively Mutliplayer Online Game it means I want to interact with a lot of people. It's been awhile since I've felt I belong to a world and a community. Playing a lot of MMORPGs recently and I'm always alone or with 4-5 other people. I've had better communication with people playing Diablo2 than I did with a lot of recent MMORPGs.
The problem with many people is that they are still thinking inside the WoW box and are unimaginative. An MMORPG with un-instanced Zones/Dungeons is going to add a big boost to community feeling and immersion. Ask anyone who played EverQuest while it is not even close to a perfect example it had a lot of problems yet it's almost always praised when mentioned by the players who had the privilage to play EQ prior to Shadows of Luclin expansion. Everyone misses Trains do you know why? because it adds to the thrill!! "TRAIN!!!"... "WHERE?!?"... that was exciting it keeps you on your toes and that what makes the game fun, Thrill.
I remember being in a dungeon in EQ when we were struggling with a long fight losing group members slowly one after another. Finally the healer drops and .. wow it felt bad watching the group wipe and having to corpse run... but somehow, the last 2 members staying alive got healed ... it was some wandering Cleric who saw the situation and helped our group. He rezzed the group and buffed us we thank him for that gave him some PP but he refused, cheered and left. Now, that kind of interaction we miss in instanced dungeons.
People need to remember that we want the Experience the Thrill... not the "Balance" or the "Conveniences". There are a lot of games who cater to player "conveneience" and "balance" A LOT OF THEM. Just go play those, I just want ONE game that can deliver an exciting gaming experience with Struggle, Thrill and Randomness just like EQ did.
I certainly agree with procedurally-generated content for MMOs. I want it applied such that the entire player population is traveling as a mass along a wide strip of land, exploring, fighting and building as they go. Procedural towns, procedural lairs, procedural tunnels, everything. Nobody knows what's around the next corner. No map sites, no farming of items, nothing. It's all one-off stuff. I can't stand hand-crafted worlds that sit stagnant and repeatable for years at a stretch.
A second thing that I really want from MMOs is some depth of gameplay. I want to be given some versatile items and capabilities that I can employ in inventive ways to solve the problems that I face. I don't want the game designers determining that this encounter is defeated by doing X, Y and Z. I just want some problems in the game world that we can solve any way that we think is interesting, challenging and fun. But that requires some significant state information in the game. Without state information, the possible permutations of action and reaction are hugely limited. And in an MMO, managing lots of state information is a nightmare.
A corollary to the depth notion is that a game would lose the focused achievement grind. For those who like that, great. I'd like to see a game that lacks it so that players can be a bit more casual about racing forward and instead dwell on tackling the current problem. We don't have to blow through the content and can instead focus on experiencing it. That's why I want the depth - so there's something to experience.
%100 agree.
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Very little was different other than that -- which is precisely why it sucked, heh.
Really anyone who's played Diablo 2 or Nethack, and subsequently tried to suffer through AO's bland mission content, truly understands what a lackluster implementation AO's missions were. (Hellgate is another example of lackluster dynamic content implementation.)
One of the keys is that the dynamic elements actually vary your gameplay, and AO was a very faceroll-ish sort of combat system (so the "random" enemies you faced were more reskinned variants than enemies who you had to approach in different ways.) Whereas in Nethack (and to a lesser degree DIablo 2) you definitely hit points where you're like "Whoa...it's a lightning enchanted enemy I have to be careful of that guy and hopefully kill him at range!"
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Just give me a castle the size of Mount St Helen's to decorate and I would be in heaven. Oh and don't forget to let me make a carpenter to make the stuff. Make sure it's big enough to take years to fill up LOL.
Just kidding but I do so love decorating more than making the buildings themselves or maps and such. I have tried some of the MMO crafting games that people have recommended but they don't have much RPG to them. They just don't hold my attention like decorating and fun interactive crafting itself that is viable to all.
Not that this has not been done already but if someone was to make a new really good MMORPG I would definately want these in it for when I just don't feel like grinding. I don't mind grinding at all infact I like earning the things I get but I can do so much then need a break for a while between.