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MMO Account rights

This topic is about issues with being able to sell or trade an MMO account that you have paid for and invested money into. This topic is not about selling a specific account to anyone so it should be not breaking any MMORPG.com forum rules.

Why do mmo companies hassle account owners when they try to sell their accounts. An owner has bought the game just like any regular game, thus he owns it. He also pays a monthly fee to the company for further development of the game. So logically account owner should be able to do anything he wants with it. From what ive read is that companies feel that they lose out on the money that is being transfered during account trade. But if the account is prevented from being sold, it still doesnt make the company any money  either since most likely account will not be renewed.

 

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Comments

  • skeaserskeaser Member UncommonPosts: 3,988

    But it loses them money. If I buy your account, you get X dollars and the company gets my continual monthly fee.

    If I have to buy from them I have to pay the box cost + monthly fees.

    Also, you own the game, they own the service and your toons.

    Sig so that badges don't eat my posts.


  • M4koM4ko Member Posts: 385

    Originally posted by skeaser

    But it loses them money. If I buy your account, you get X dollars and the company gets my continual monthly fee.

    If I have to buy from them I have to pay the box cost + monthly fees.

    Also, you own the game, they own the service and your toons.

    if i cant buy a high level account i most likely not going to buy the game at all, so its pretty much 50/50 if buyer wouldve bought original boxed game or not, not much profit to be gained there.

    What makes toons a property of the company, is this a part of agreement when you create an account? how do companies decide that they have the right of the toons, what do they base it on?

  • Thomas2006Thomas2006 Member RarePosts: 1,133

    Originally posted by M4ko

    Originally posted by skeaser

    But it loses them money. If I buy your account, you get X dollars and the company gets my continual monthly fee.

    If I have to buy from them I have to pay the box cost + monthly fees.

    Also, you own the game, they own the service and your toons.

    if i cant buy a high level account i most likely not going to buy the game at all, so its pretty much 50/50 if buyer wouldve bought original boxed game or not, not much profit to be gained there.

    What makes toons a property of the company, is this a part of agreement when you create an account? how do companies decide that they have the right of the toons, what do they base it on?

    If your character is stored on THERE SERVER then your character is nothing more then bits of information on hardware they on. And since your character was CREATED on THERE SERVERS then by all intensive purposes its data they already own.

    So yes they have a right to do whatever they want with there own property.

    All you buy when you buy a MMO is A) A CD that holds client data and B) Access to there service via an account they lend you.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,002

    most simply its becuase u do not own the account you payed to use an account all the digital property within belongs to the company, u even agree to a tos when creating said account which usaully mentions this

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.

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  • DnomsedDnomsed Member UncommonPosts: 261

    Common misconception, when you buy a MMORPG, the only thing you 'own' is the box and its physical contents.  You cannot even say that you own the software as your paying for its use and thats it.  The publisher technically retains ownership of the software regardless of whether its loaded on your hardrive or sitting on CD's on your bookshelf.  You download the software off the web and you own NOTHING.

    Warhammer fanatic since '85.
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  • nikoliathnikoliath Member UncommonPosts: 1,154

    Originally posted by M4ko

    This topic is about issues with being able to sell or trade an MMO account that you have paid for and invested money into. This topic is not about selling a specific account to anyone so it should be not breaking any MMORPG.com forum rules.

    Why do mmo companies hassle account owners when they try to sell their accounts. An owner has bought the game just like any regular game, thus he owns it. He also pays a monthly fee to the company for further development of the game. So logically account owner should be able to do anything he wants with it. From what ive read is that companies feel that they lose out on the money that is being transfered during account trade. But if the account is prevented from being sold, it still doesnt make the company any money  either since most likely account will not be renewed.

     

    You, te customer, owns nothing other than aaccess to the company's software via a licence. The company owns all software, items and IP, therfore you have nothing to legally sell.

  • M4koM4ko Member Posts: 385

     






    Originally posted by Asm0deus

    most simply its becuase u do not own the account you payed to use an account all the digital property within belongs to the company, u even agree to a tos when creating said account which usaully mentions this



    no you own the account because you pay for it, just like anything else you own when you pay full price for it. Just like the CD you bought for Xbox or PS3, you own that CD and can sell to anyone you want for any price, because you PAID for it. If i play RPG on a console and save all my progres on a memory and then give it to my friend, he will have same character as I do. 

    Now how much do I have to pay for an MMO game to OWN it? Dont you find it funy that I cant possibly own it even though i paid for it?

     

    So now it all boils down to the agreement you sign when you create an account, it is based on nothing at all besides giving you an ultimatum.

  • M4koM4ko Member Posts: 385

    Originally posted by nikoliath

    Originally posted by M4ko

    This topic is about issues with being able to sell or trade an MMO account that you have paid for and invested money into. This topic is not about selling a specific account to anyone so it should be not breaking any MMORPG.com forum rules.

    Why do mmo companies hassle account owners when they try to sell their accounts. An owner has bought the game just like any regular game, thus he owns it. He also pays a monthly fee to the company for further development of the game. So logically account owner should be able to do anything he wants with it. From what ive read is that companies feel that they lose out on the money that is being transfered during account trade. But if the account is prevented from being sold, it still doesnt make the company any money  either since most likely account will not be renewed.

     

    You, te customer, owns nothing other than aaccess to the company's software via a licence. The company owns all software, items and IP, therfore you have nothing to legally sell.

    you are not selling the software(items)  or the IP, thats laughable, youre only selling your information that you have gained through certain amount of time.

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,083

    Well there are certain game companies like Sony, which allow you to transfer characters, or sale characters between different accounts, or the station shop. I know that Rohan Global allows you to sell your characters, or give them to someone else, as I have played that game before. Also some game companies like very old ones allow Selling of your account, and full transfer.

    If it were up to me honestly, and there were Laws to MMO companies, or I owned my own company, I would allow it 100% Tradeable to people. The only thing that my company would require is verification of the actual owner of the account doing the trade with the other person, and I would have a buy/trade system so that characters, or accounts could be sold legally. Also I would support Real Money Trading, but only through the game market place, and the only rule against Real Money Trading would be against bots, but I would support Trading Items, or money through the market place, as long as it is all legally obtained in game, as players use their Real Life time, and that is what they would be trading.

    This is just me but I would like a game like this that is a really good up to date MMO, I would love to see features like this where players could transfer their account Data to someone else legally within the games TOS/Rules, and a game that supports Real Money Trading, and trading in their own game.

    I mean why should people not be allowed to trade characters to a friend if they quit a game, and loose everything they have put into the game, because I feel that MMO gamers deserve this right, but most companies do not think this I guess. Also I feel that if for example Blizzard allowed me to give away my Level 70's I would because I dont play wow anymore, but since they dont allow character trading, that data is just sitting on their server taking up space, and they make no money from it, yet If I gave it to someone else, or Sold it legally if they support this then they would be making $16 a month compared to making $0 from nothing.

    I am not asking people to violate a games TOS, or EULA by this post either, it is just an example, and an opinion of what I would like to see, but most companies do not allow it.

  • DnomsedDnomsed Member UncommonPosts: 261

    Let me dumb it down for you.  You are not the owner, you're the renter.  You dont own the apartment you live in, you rent it from the landlord.  Even if you live in the same space for 25 years and have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years, you OWN nothing.

    Warhammer fanatic since '85.
    image

  • NeikenNeiken Member Posts: 254

    When you play an mmorpg they ask you to sign the *EULA, it states your legal rights to the account, among other things. If you dont agree with the EULA, your more then welcome to not play the game. You play it on their terms. Meaning though you may think you have ownership over the account, you dont own any part of the game. So selling an account with characters is like selling a peice of their game.

    Is this fair? I think you should be able to sell the time you spent into each character to another person. If mmos would embrace that and control the trade of accounts, they could make up for the profit they are losing by charging a service fee for transfering the account to the new person. I doubt they'd do something like this though, theyd rather try to find a way to stop account trade all together so they can get 100% of the profit they feel should be coming to them when someone decides to start an account.

    You cant expect any change to the way it is right now unless a company decides to allow it. They can put anything they want into the EULA, and as long as you sign it, your subjected to its terms.

     

    * EULA = End User License Agreement

    image

  • M4koM4ko Member Posts: 385

    Originally posted by Dnomsed

    Let me dumb it down for you.  You are not the owner, you're the renter.  You dont own the apartment you live in, you rent it from the landlord.  Even if you live in the same space for 25 years and have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years, you OWN nothing.

    not relevent becaus you BUY the boxed game.

  • M4koM4ko Member Posts: 385

    Originally posted by Neiken

    When you play an mmorpg they ask you to sign the *EULA, it states your legal rights to the account, among other things. If you dont agree with the EULA, your more then welcome to not play the game. You play it on their terms. Meaning though you may think you have ownership over the account, you dont own any part of the game. So selling an account with characters is like selling a peice of their game.

    Is this fair? I think you should be able to sell the time you spent into each character to another person. If mmos would embrace that and control the trade of accounts, they could make up for the profit they are losing by charging a service fee for transfering the account to the new person. I doubt they'd do something like this though, theyd rather try to find a way to stop account trade all together so they can get 100% of the profit they feel should be coming to them when someone decides to start an account.

    You cant expect any change to the way it is right now unless a company decides to allow it. They can put anything they want into the EULA, and as long as you sign it, your subjected to its terms.

     

    * EULA = End User License Agreement

    yes, EULA, based on nothing tangeble.

     

     they dont make any profit at all with lvl 70 wow accounts laying inactive.

  • DnomsedDnomsed Member UncommonPosts: 261

    And as i said in my first post, you DO own the box, the disks, the game manual.  Those tangibles ARE yours, but thats it.

    Warhammer fanatic since '85.
    image

  • M4koM4ko Member Posts: 385

    Originally posted by Dnomsed

    And as i said in my first post, you DO own the box, the disks, the game manual.  Those tangibles ARE yours, but thats it.

    im sorry, but a piece of cardboard box with some CDs and case by themselves cost no more than 5 $. Einstein

  • DnomsedDnomsed Member UncommonPosts: 261

    Hehe, its all clear now.  How much did you lose buying someones banned account?

    Warhammer fanatic since '85.
    image

  • M4koM4ko Member Posts: 385

    Originally posted by Dnomsed

    Hehe, its all clear now.  How much did you lose buying someones banned account?

    ive never bought an account. This is a seriuos discussion that needs much attention.

  • nolfnolf Member UncommonPosts: 859

    Originally posted by M4ko

    This topic is about issues with being able to sell or trade an MMO account that you have paid for and invested money into. This topic is not about selling a specific account to anyone so it should be not breaking any MMORPG.com forum rules.

    Why do mmo companies hassle account owners when they try to sell their accounts. An owner has bought the game just like any regular game, thus he owns it. He also pays a monthly fee to the company for further development of the game. So logically account owner should be able to do anything he wants with it. From what ive read is that companies feel that they lose out on the money that is being transfered during account trade. But if the account is prevented from being sold, it still doesnt make the company any money  either since most likely account will not be renewed.

     

    They are still losing revenue from box sales.  We own the copy of our game, but that's it.  Along the lines you are thinking, MMO players would have a right to a class action lawsuit whenever a game closes its doors.  Our subscrition fees do not entitle us to part ownership of the game, they give us access to the servers and live product.  We are simply renting the technology and intellectual property of said game.  We can't turn around and profit from someone else's intelluctual property without including them in the transaction.  Its a federal offense to rent a movie from Blockbuster, copy it and sell it.  Or just sell it without aquiring the rights to do so.  Why should MMOs be any different?

    Financial issues aside, it also creates an inequity for players who have actually "put the work in" to get whatever is being sold in said hypothetical account.  This is an often maligned aspect of the MMO black market (see any debate on the currency market).  The result loss in subscriptions from disenfranchised players who would have otherwise continued playing outweighs the one hypothetical account's subscription fees being cancelled.

    As with everything in the business, it all comes down to profitability.  There are just too many negative repercussions for companies to do nothing about this.  At this point in time, they must outweigh the benefits of leaving the black markets alone.

     

    *edit for add*

    That being said, I would love to see an MMO take this into their own hands and bring the black market under their control.  But in order to support this, there would have to be TONS of restrictions to avoid players who stay uninvolved from feeling "cheated" by earning what they have.

    I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.

  • naraku209naraku209 Member Posts: 226

    MMORPG p2p Definition: I pay to use your hardware and programming for my own pleasure and leisure 

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  • DnomsedDnomsed Member UncommonPosts: 261

    Actually, there is nothing serious about this thread at all.  You are talking about intangible things related to a leisure activity with virtually no redeeming qualities outside of its entertainment.  The value of the account is related to whether or not your disposable entertainment budget was well spent relative to other things you could have been spending it on that you enjoy doing.  To say otherwise is a fallacy.

    Warhammer fanatic since '85.
    image

  • M4koM4ko Member Posts: 385

    Originally posted by nolf

    Originally posted by M4ko

    This topic is about issues with being able to sell or trade an MMO account that you have paid for and invested money into. This topic is not about selling a specific account to anyone so it should be not breaking any MMORPG.com forum rules.

    Why do mmo companies hassle account owners when they try to sell their accounts. An owner has bought the game just like any regular game, thus he owns it. He also pays a monthly fee to the company for further development of the game. So logically account owner should be able to do anything he wants with it. From what ive read is that companies feel that they lose out on the money that is being transfered during account trade. But if the account is prevented from being sold, it still doesnt make the company any money  either since most likely account will not be renewed.

     

    They are still losing revenue from box sales.  We own the copy of our game, but that's it.  Along the lines you are thinking, MMO players would have a right to a class action lawsuit whenever a game closes its doors.



    If basing EULA fairly, a banckrupt company wouldnt have to pay anything to acount owners.

      Our subscrition fees do not entitle us to part ownership of the game, they give us access to the servers and live product.  We are simply renting the technology and intellectual property of said game.  We can't turn around and profit from someone else's intelluctual property without including them in the transaction.  Its a federal offense to rent a movie from Blockbuster, copy it and sell it.  Or just sell it without aquiring the rights to do so.  Why should MMOs be any different?

    WHen you rent a movie you are paying a fee to owner of the disk and fees to all the persons receiving roaylties from it, you are not paying FULL BUY price. When you BUY a movie you OWN it. When you BUY an MMO you must have own it, as this is a regular practice of the market. So now there is a blur in a regular practice of ownership when you pay a buy price for something, which is created by MMO companies because they feel left out. If this is a special case somehow then there should be clear set out to be and not just an ultimatum that is EULA. EULA can be created with gamers in mind which would profit both and not hurt both

     

     

    Financial issues aside, it also creates an inequity for players who have actually "put the work in" to get whatever is being sold in said hypothetical account.  This is an often maligned aspect of the MMO black market (see any debate on the currency market).  The result loss in subscriptions from disenfranchised players who would have otherwise continued playing outweighs the one hypothetical account's subscription fees being cancelled.

    dont agree

  • WorstluckWorstluck Member Posts: 1,269

    Originally posted by M4ko

    Originally posted by Dnomsed

    Hehe, its all clear now.  How much did you lose buying someones banned account?

    ive never bought an account. This is a seriuos discussion that needs much attention.

     

    Why does it need attention?  Just curious.  Or are you just trolling?

     

    You don't "own" the account.  If you don't like it, make your own game development company, and let everyone sell their accounts when they get bored, see how it works for you.

    image

  • M4koM4ko Member Posts: 385

    Originally posted by Dnomsed

    Actually, there is nothing serious about this thread at all.  You are talking about intangible things related to a leisure activity with virtually no redeeming qualities outside of its entertainment.

    really? I wonder why some people lose their lives over MMOs, literally

     

     The value of the account is related to whether or not your disposable entertainment budget was well spent relative to other things you could have been spending it on that you enjoy doing.  To say otherwise is a fallacy.

    {Mod edit}

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,002

    lol when u buy a game ( a physical copy  ) or a digital copy for that matter you are not "buying the game.

     

    you are paying for the "client" (which is a digital property ) . now then some games are f2p and so you can just dl the client for free , this is becuase they are making theyre money otherways (usaully via cash shops etc)

     

    take windows 7 for example (or winxp etc etc)  did u know u can not install it on mutiple pc even though u "bought" it , if u upgrade the pc too much aswell ( chage mother board etc etc ) u can even be told by wonderfull MS that its essentially a new pc and there fore u need to buy a new OS.

     

    this is becuase when u buy the OS or the "game client" ur more like buying a lincense. this doesnt even touch the game account !

     

    your thread is about selling accounts it has nothing to do with the clients used to play the game. the accounts are the other component thatsnot included in the "box or digital " copy you bought  ;)

     

    you cant own an account becuase theres nothing for you to own really its information the company "allows" you to "store" on there servers

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.

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  • M4koM4ko Member Posts: 385

    Originally posted by Asm0deus

    lol when u buy a game ( a physical copy  ) or a digital copy for that matter you are not "buying the game.

     

    you are paying for the "client" (which is a digital property ) . now then some games are f2p and so you can just dl the client for free , this is becuase they are making theyre money otherways (usaully via cash shops etc)

     

    take windows 7 for example (or winxp etc etc)  did u know u can not install it on mutiple pc even though u "bought" it , if u upgrade the pc too much aswell ( chage mother board etc etc ) u can even be told by wonderfull MS that its essentially a new pc and there fore u need to buy a new OS.

     Yes you can not install it on multiple PCs but you can sell your PC to someone else with that OS on it. YOu essentially resold the licence because you OWN It.

    this is becuase when u buy the OS or the "game client" ur more like buying a lincense. this doesnt even touch the game account !

     

    your thread is about selling accounts it has nothing to do with the clients used to play the game. the accounts are the other component thatsnot included in the "box or digital " copy you bought  ;)

     

    you cant own an account becuase theres nothing for you to own really its information the company "allows" you to "store" on there servers

    ANyway, this warrior is done for tonight, too many replies to answer.

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