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Skll based LOTRO

Anyone?  Why isn't LOTRO (Lord Of The Rings Online) a skill based game?

 

Also, would it work better?

 

/.Lord Oscarian

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Comments

  • KuvajokeriKuvajokeri Member Posts: 55

    Don't take this in the way that I wouldn't like LOTRO, because I do, but the reason it isn't a skill based game, I think, is the fact it is in a way an EQ2/WoW -generation type of game. Turbine basically took the basic design of those games, changed it in some aspects, based the game's story on a very popular franchise and that was it. That's what I think, anyway.

    Now, would LOTRO work as a skill-based game? Well sure, why not; there's no PvP balance to screw with and I think it would fit into the world of Middle-earth very well. In the end though it's kind of irrelevant to talk about it though, because the game will remain what it is.

  • MurdusMurdus Member UncommonPosts: 698

    Darkfall with LOTRO skin would be awesome. if thats what you mean. though im not sure because as i shifted through all the details of your post i kind of got lost. haha im kidding but yea not enough detail

  • djnexusdjnexus Member Posts: 677

    All games need to be skill based from now on if you ask me. Then you wont have to run into : just one more level!!! and in a real life fantasy setting or whatever setting your in there isnt levels to begin with. Theres skills  though IRL and in sandbox games. And enough with the linear hold my hand thempark mmos already.

  • TyrrhonTyrrhon Member Posts: 412

    {mod edit}

     

    Edit: On more constructive note based on facts: because Turbine knows what it would mean and is too cheap and lazy.

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    Originally posted by Tyrrhon

    Why is not blue red? Would it be better?

    /.another random troll

     

    Edit: On more constructive note based on facts: because Turbine knows what it would mean and is too cheap and lazy.

    It seems odd to me that you would recognize Skill vs. Level as a "color change" (same function, different style) and yet call the devs "lazy" for not randomly changing their game mid-release to account for one random player's request on a remote forum.

    When you release with Skills or Level, you stick with it.  It's not "lazy" to avoid huge amounts of workload inefficiency that would piss off your existing playerbase.

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,308

    middle earth I heard was more skill based, before that project was scrapped for LoTRO

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,633

    Originally posted by djnexus

    All games need to be skill based from now on if you ask me. Then you wont have to run into : just one more level!!! and in a real life fantasy setting or whatever setting your in there isnt levels to begin with. Theres skills  though IRL and in sandbox games. And enough with the linear hold my hand thempark mmos already.

    Sure you would, you would just get the "must raise my skill one more point" syndrome. I mean, I was horrified to find out that when people play Oblvion they actually will grind their skills by repeating something over and over again or putting their character in the water and having them swim against something to raise their endurance.

    i swear it's the players who are their own biggest enemies when it comes to creating repetitive game play.

    Unless of course people mean "skill based" as in fps?

    Well that's a completely different type of game play and I imagine that having the systems they have now do more to allow a greater amount of people to be competitive. Not everyone is capable of great twitch based combat.

    The cream will always rise to the top but at least in this case it allows for more people to play as opposed to marginalizing those without quick reflexes.

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  • PapadamPapadam Member Posts: 2,102

    I think a skill based system is better for PvP focused games while leveling is better for PvE.

    LotrO is a PvE game so there you go.

    And I hate the skill leveling of games like Darkfall where you increase stuff while doing it. I like Earthrise better where you earn xp from doing stuff so you can buy and upgrade skills.

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  • Matt_UKMatt_UK Member Posts: 420

    While skill based games can be good, EQ the best example, I always found I was often playing just to max my skills rather than interact on a more meaningful level. Admittedly there are other ways of 'maxing' in LOTRO, completing deeds for example, but I find it more natural than watching the numbers click up in the chat box in the way they used to in EQ. Having said that, maxing skills was kind of addictive, they didn't call it Ever Crack for nothing.

    Having said all that i'd like to see an mmo that uses percentages again. I used to love the way we had to juggle a finite number of percentage points across skills in UO. No one could be good at everything and everyone was different.

    image
  • GruugGruug Member RarePosts: 1,783

    Not sure if I really get the whole "skill based" issue. In LOTRO you mash buttons/keys. In Darkfall, you mash buttons/keys. Not a lot of difference. (And to note...I play both).

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  • Mud_MonsterMud_Monster Member UncommonPosts: 229

    Originally posted by Gruug

    Not sure if I really get the whole "skill based" issue. In LOTRO you mash buttons/keys. In Darkfall, you mash buttons/keys. Not a lot of difference. (And to note...I play both).

    By skill based, the OP is referring to a system where you level up skills instead of a class.  Darkfall, UO, SWG are examples of skill based games.  WoW, LOTRO, etc are examples of class based games.

    Asheron's Call 2 had a hybrid class/skill based system and I think that is the route LOTRO should have went.  I recommended that in early closed beta, but the Devs shot it down.  I forget what the reason they gave was.

    image

  • BelegStrongbowBelegStrongbow Member UncommonPosts: 296

    RIP  Middle Earth Online

     

     

  • GruugGruug Member RarePosts: 1,783

    Originally posted by SagetheRage

    Originally posted by Gruug

    Not sure if I really get the whole "skill based" issue. In LOTRO you mash buttons/keys. In Darkfall, you mash buttons/keys. Not a lot of difference. (And to note...I play both).

    By skill based, the OP is referring to a system where you level up skills instead of a class.  Darkfall, UO, SWG are examples of skill based games.  WoW, LOTRO, etc are examples of class based games.

    Asheron's Call 2 had a hybrid class/skill based system and I think that is the route LOTRO should have went.  I recommended that in early closed beta, but the Devs shot it down.  I forget what the reason they gave was.

     As I mentioned, I play both LOTRO and Darkfall. I have played SWG through NGE. I still do not see how "skill" is part of it. In any of the games listed, I play so long and I get a "skill" or "power". The time invested is the same relatively speaking and there is not real skill (aka hand eye, balance on one foot, shoot the apple off the head while blindfolded). I just don't think that when people say "skill" they all mean the same thing. So to me, it is like comparing apples to apples.

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  • Mud_MonsterMud_Monster Member UncommonPosts: 229

    Originally posted by Gruug

     As I mentioned, I play both LOTRO and Darkfall. I have played SWG through NGE. I still do not see how "skill" is part of it. In any of the games listed, I play so long and I get a "skill" or "power". The time invested is the same relatively speaking and there is not real skill (aka hand eye, balance on one foot, shoot the apple off the head while blindfolded). I just don't think that when people say "skill" they all mean the same thing. So to me, it is like comparing apples to apples.

    See, you are thinking skill-based as in player skill, and I can definately see the confusion there as skill-based is often used in that regard as well.  In this sense, think skill-based as in your character's skills/abilities/spells/etc, not how well you play the game.  Like in Darkfall, you can pick different skills to focus on and level up those by using them.  In LOTRO you are locked in a set class and limited to only the skills your class is given.

    image

  • Matt_UKMatt_UK Member Posts: 420

    Originally posted by BelegStrongbow

    RIP  Middle Earth Online

     

     

     

    What's the point of bemoaning the loss of an mmo that was never a commercial release?

     

    It was never born, how could it die? I too would have liked LOTRO to be more like Asherons Call 2 but to be honest no one truly knows what MEO would have been like in Alpha, so what's the point crying about it four years later?

    image
  • trancejeremytrancejeremy Member UncommonPosts: 1,222

    Originally posted by Matt_UK

    Originally posted by BelegStrongbow

    RIP  Middle Earth Online

     

     

     

    What's the point of bemoaning the loss of an mmo that was never a commercial release?

     

     

     

    Because that way it can live up to all the dreams and fantasies that the person imagines. Even more powerful than rose-colored glasses

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  • seabass2003seabass2003 Member Posts: 4,144

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    middle earth I heard was more skill based, before that project was scrapped for LoTRO

    MEO was also going to cure cancer and bring peace to the middle east but alas we were given LOTRO.

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,633

    Originally posted by trancejeremy

    Originally posted by Matt_UK


    Originally posted by BelegStrongbow

    RIP  Middle Earth Online

     

     

     

    What's the point of bemoaning the loss of an mmo that was never a commercial release?

     

     

     

    Because that way it can live up to all the dreams and fantasies that the person imagines. Even more powerful than rose-colored glasses

    The issue is that MEO never had the chance to be good or bad.

    It will always remaing, to some, the "perfect" middle earth game. Yet, if it was released I wonder how many people would be rushing to the forums to trash it because it wasn't X or Y?

    Everybody seems to love these games until they get their hands on them. Then they "should have done this" or "didn't go far enough with that".

    I could sit here and spout a litany of things that I'm going to put in "my game". But unless I can make it happen it's as good as any other idea that never came to frutiion.

    It's easy to say "we are going to do this and that" and a LOT harder to make it happen.

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  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,606

    Originally posted by seabass2003

    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    middle earth I heard was more skill based, before that project was scrapped for LoTRO

    MEO was also going to cure cancer and bring peace to the middle east but alas we were given LOTRO.

    Yes... LotRO, which hates us for our freedoms!  :P

    MEO was also going to give us all "The One Ring" and allow us to date Liv Tyler.  I was all in til' they claimed it would kill male pattern baldness.  Then I knew it was too good to be true.

  • Larry2298Larry2298 Member Posts: 865

    I think the reason why Lotro can't be skill base game because of the stats of mobs and everything need to rechange.  Lotro is heavily based on skills, tho not skill tree. The skill and stats are all not matching each ohter, that is also why, Lotro has to keep nerfing the player's stats or weapons or armors.

    Lotro has been capped stats at 500 before Mirkwood, and now it capped again at 650, besides the evade, parry etc are capped at 15%, if any one these stats been changed, the game would totally lose control as if the Dam is broken.

    And then you may solo everything, however, the problem wouldn't last long enough because it leads nowhere already.

  • Lizard_SFLizard_SF Member Posts: 348

    It's much harder to test and balance systems which divide up abilities with too fine a granularity. The difference between a "class based" and a "skill based" game is just whether you raise 4 skills all at once (you gain a level and you become better at this, that ,and the other thing) or you raise each one individually. Historically, this has led to one or more of the following problems to greater or lesser degree:

    a)Everyone does everything. If you can learn every skill, then, in most systems, you quickly end up with every skill maxed.

    b)Flavor Of The Month. In games with limited skill raising, there will almost always be one or two combinations which are overpowering in PVE or PVP. So everyone puts all their points into those skills. Then they get nerfed, and everyone whines, and then someone finds the next flavor. Lather, rinse, repeat.

    c)Useless skills: The other side of the equation are skills which have little use and which consume valuable skill points. These cause a variety of problems, from players being angry they "wasted" points, to developers struggling to find a use for them. (UO at release was filled with worthless skills... who remembers "tasting", when there were only 8 potions in the game, they were all color-coded, and the colors were documented in the manual? Or cartography, before they added treasure maps?)

    d)Easy Cap: Another problem which early UO is the standard bearer for... you could easily max all your skills in 3 days or less. Then what?

    e)Grinding: Once more, an opposite of the above... you must spend an eternity doing dull, repetitive, tasks to raise a skill a fraction of a percent.

    Obviously, some skill based games work, and usually these are games which have specific niches or styles which are served by this approach. However, for most games, the amount of added fun which can be gained by using a skill based system is offset by the development time needed to get it right, development time which could be used to add systems which would be more fun. In other words, if it takes 2 developer-years to implement a skill-based system and 1 developer-year to implement a level based system, in the second case, you have another developer-year to spend on other things, and the benefit from a skill based system usually isn't worth the time invested.

    (Level/class based systems also have their own versions of the above problems, but, they are also easier to fix, simple because you're dealing with larger chunks. Fixing one class is easier than fixing 10 skills. The tipping point between "Too complex to balance and maintain" and "too simple and bland to be fun" is one every company struggles to find and hold.)

  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916

    Hehe, I still remember when I used level up my destruction skills in Morrowind. I would stand against a wall start casting some destruction spells repeatedly and when I ran out of magicka > rest > rinse and repeat. OOh, the immersion ;)

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 30,633

    Originally posted by fivoroth

    Hehe, I still remember when I used level up my destruction skills in Morrowind. I would stand against a wall start casting some destruction spells repeatedly and when I ran out of magicka > rest > rinse and repeat. OOh, the immersion ;)

    you know, I only did that once in morrowind.

    And it was actually pretty immersive as I felt like i was deep in this dwember ruin (which I was) and "practicing".

    My fire spells kept failing so I wanted to at least get them high enough so they wouldn't fail as much.

    there I was, in the dark ruin, casting fire balls toward the back of the space. The shadows parting way until it hit the back.

    It was actually pretty immersive. Thereafter I just used them and leveled them as they went.

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  • kastrixkastrix Member Posts: 75

    Lotro with Oblivion styled gameplay/world/grapics/system would be perfect!"

    Or just a guild wars 2 combat system but in a open, presistant world with faction based pvp

     

    Hope lotro 2 goes for any of these

  • Dark_SkuraiDark_Skurai Member Posts: 106

    I never get why people moan that a game isn't skill based, but rather level based.

    What does it matter? Either way it has a grind to it, either way people who have spent more time will likely have an edge over those who spent less time. Take Darkfall, it had the skill based system, and that very system is killing the game because the game is FAR TO UNWELCOMING to new players because the skill system makes a bigger gap than the hallmark of level based games - gear - could ever make.

    If comparing to the old SWG system, I can't help but notice that the "skills" are nothing more than leveling in certain areas. It's the exact same thing as leveling except that you can do more with one character, which could easily be done if they had something akin to the Rift system of changing your "class" on the fly. Not to mention the jack of all trade system, do whatever you want, sort of thing can cause MASSIVE balancing issues (Darkfall)

     

    If speaking of skill as in dodging and attacking in an oblivion sense, well, I used to want that in an MMO. Then I played Darkfall, I stopped and really looked at Oblivion, and realized that there is far less "skill" in a dodge/attack based system than a more WoW based action bar system. 

     

    Suming up: "skill" based systems are the same thing as a level system when it comes  down to it, but is far more open to problems that will show up an MMO, far more problems that would show up in a level system.

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