Sorry, I get what you are getting at OP - but I just can't agree not for me anyway.
You are artificially increasing the intrinsic value of the game for your self. You are "tricking" yourself into liking it. Don't get me wrong. It works I have gone back to a game after a long long long break and found in very enjoyable. The problem is that it is short lived.
With a few new innovations and the method you suggest it might last longer and you might get that "fresh - first MMO feeling". I guess I see three scenarios. I will use ice-cream as an example:
Possibility 1
You love chocolate icecream and eat if countless hours a day until you burnt out on it years later. You take a few months off and come back to it. It is close to the experience you had the first time and you continue on eating it for months with that initial excitement. Nice!
Possibility 2
You love chocolate icecream and eat it for countless hours a day - each week the company changes the ingredients a little bit to increase profits or offset costs now that the brand is popular. First they use some cheaper alternatives (reducing costs or easier to manufacture). . then they take out the chocolate chips. . then they stop using dairy all together. You figure you are just tired of it and take a few months off and then come back to it. At first you manage to convince yourself that it is close to as good as what you remembered. . maybe you were just remember wrong after all. . you enjoy it for awhile and then one day when you go to buy a case again (resub) you just put it back.
Now there are many in betweens there that people are likley to fit into and surely there is always someone willing to come along and make a "premium" ice-cream - but they don't often do it at a price that is the same. Since I think MMOs are stuck at the $15 price (or shifting to BtP FtP) I am not sure we will see that premium icecream anytime soon.
OR
I have grown out of eating icecream.
While what you suggest might work for some. . a mind trick is a mind trick and never lasts. There are a lot of things people find much more entertaining while intoxicated. Unless them plan on staying intoxicated it could actually have the opposite effect where later on. . . sober. . it seems even more dull than it did to begin with.
Why am I on these forums then? I guess I still want to like ice-cream and hope someone will bring back my original flavour with enough new elements to make it refreshing again. (see "New Coke")
You make an interesting comparison. You are right, I am preparing myself to potentially (intrinsically) accept GW2, but the sole reason been is that I can't go on for time reasons to search for my "pie in the sky." I don't have an accurate judge on whether or not I am intrinsically liking this game or not. Whether or not I do, like you say, put that ice-cream back is one question indeed, but unlike ice-cream an MMORPG can be just put back and forgotten about. An ice-cream once eaten can't be put back but I hope that the new elements will make GW2 refreshing again.
You better take that break because once this game releases all your going to see is "it's the same old stuff" and "Gw2 a real mmo?" over and over again. Guild wars will be a good game but the things people are excited about aren't that revolutionary. As an example people are acting as having no dedicated healing classes will be the end of the holy trinity system. It won't for groups you will still need someone that tanks, DPS, support and heals. People act as if dynamic events will end the quest grind when the reality of it is, it's the same old thing they just remove the need to go talk too a quest giver first. The biggest kicker and one that I feel will be the biggest talked about negative of the game will be the single player rpg personal storyline which is much more important than the dynamic system when it comes down to the individual. So please, listen to the OP, stop playing mmorpgs because if you don't you will be disappointed.
It's amazes me how someone can type so much when they know so little. Amazes me.
It won't for groups you will still need someone that tanks, DPS, support and heals. People act as if dynamic events will end the quest grind when the reality of it is, it's the same old thing they just remove the need to go talk too a quest giver first.
Once I read that, I couldn't help but laugh at the stupidity. Good luck to you buddy. Hope you have a great time realizing that you're wrong.
Once again, a poster that has merely taken the post of a poster without seeing his tone and his attitude towards GW2, which if I may add is a good one at least.
Please read that he is only reflecting on the fact that dynamic events may not be the "be all" but that he still continues to see games for their enjoyment without being too critical.
I do agree that I try to play an MMORPG for the enjoyment, without being too critical and judging that: "hey it's not perfect! It's not MY pie in the sky!!"
I'm used to it. They dont realize that I've been following GW2 much longer than Rift. Yet I'm a rift fanboy... Rift was a surprise for me, I had no idea the game was going to be fun. I've only been following it for about two months. Yet I've played GW1 for years. I will be playing GW2 on release and I will have a good time because I think A-net is a good developer. But I refuse to fool myself in thinking GW2 is suddenly going of re-write the way mmorpgs work.
If Rift was that much fun you wouldn't be here fighting futile forum battles.
Lol dude ... how many times are you going to use this stupid argument.
Please look for other arguments, because you start to look silly.
It won't for groups you will still need someone that tanks, DPS, support and heals. People act as if dynamic events will end the quest grind when the reality of it is, it's the same old thing they just remove the need to go talk too a quest giver first.
Once I read that, I couldn't help but laugh at the stupidity. Good luck to you buddy. Hope you have a great time realizing that you're wrong.
Once again, a poster that has merely taken the post of a poster without seeing his tone and his attitude towards GW2, which if I may add is a good one at least.
Please read that he is only reflecting on the fact that dynamic events may not be the "be all" but that he still continues to see games for their enjoyment without being too critical.
I do agree that I try to play an MMORPG for the enjoyment, without being too critical and judging that: "hey it's not perfect! It's not MY pie in the sky!!"
I'm used to it. They dont realize that I've been following GW2 much longer than Rift. Yet I'm a rift fanboy... Rift was a surprise for me, I had no idea the game was going to be fun. I've only been following it for about two months. Yet I've played GW1 for years. I will be playing GW2 on release and I will have a good time because I think A-net is a good developer. But I refuse to fool myself in thinking GW2 is suddenly going of re-write the way mmorpgs work.
If Rift was that much fun you wouldn't be here fighting futile forum battles.
Umm unlike some school kid I actually have to goto work. I'm posting here on my phone while I commute. Also this isn't forum pvp, I have no agenda, I couldn't careless if you guys play rift... I mean seriously I'm going to play GW2 also does it make much sense to sway gw2 fans if I intend to play it?
Regardless of who you are and how long youv been following GW2 your still wrong. There is no healer class. There are classes that can heal, but its been specifically said that those heals will in NO way get you through group content. You have to rely on yourself to heal and others to support.
You better take that break because once this game releases all your going to see is "it's the same old stuff" and "Gw2 a real mmo?" over and over again. Guild wars will be a good game but the things people are excited about aren't that revolutionary. As an example people are acting as having no dedicated healing classes will be the end of the holy trinity system. It won't for groups you will still need someone that tanks, DPS, support and heals. People act as if dynamic events will end the quest grind when the reality of it is, it's the same old thing they just remove the need to go talk too a quest giver first. The biggest kicker and one that I feel will be the biggest talked about negative of the game will be the single player rpg personal storyline which is much more important than the dynamic system when it comes down to the individual. So please, listen to the OP, stop playing mmorpgs because if you don't you will be disappointed.
I gotta agree with you there man. Good points.
Before playing DCUO, I was like Voice Overs are everything thing for me in MMO. But after playing DCUO, I realize that I want to be part of a community and how the the loot system works is just as important.
You better take that break because once this game releases all your going to see is "it's the same old stuff" and "Gw2 a real mmo?" over and over again. Guild wars will be a good game but the things people are excited about aren't that revolutionary. As an example people are acting as having no dedicated healing classes will be the end of the holy trinity system. It won't for groups you will still need someone that tanks, DPS, support and heals. People act as if dynamic events will end the quest grind when the reality of it is, it's the same old thing they just remove the need to go talk too a quest giver first. The biggest kicker and one that I feel will be the biggest talked about negative of the game will be the single player rpg personal storyline which is much more important than the dynamic system when it comes down to the individual. So please, listen to the OP, stop playing mmorpgs because if you don't you will be disappointed.
It's amazes me how someone can type so much when they know so little. Amazes me.
Its going to be fun watching you cry on the forums because GW2 doesnt live up to your expectations while im enjoying myself in game.
It won't for groups you will still need someone that tanks, DPS, support and heals. People act as if dynamic events will end the quest grind when the reality of it is, it's the same old thing they just remove the need to go talk too a quest giver first.
Once I read that, I couldn't help but laugh at the stupidity. Good luck to you buddy. Hope you have a great time realizing that you're wrong.
Once again, a poster that has merely taken the post of a poster without seeing his tone and his attitude towards GW2, which if I may add is a good one at least.
Please read that he is only reflecting on the fact that dynamic events may not be the "be all" but that he still continues to see games for their enjoyment without being too critical.
I do agree that I try to play an MMORPG for the enjoyment, without being too critical and judging that: "hey it's not perfect! It's not MY pie in the sky!!"
I'm used to it. They dont realize that I've been following GW2 much longer than Rift. Yet I'm a rift fanboy... Rift was a surprise for me, I had no idea the game was going to be fun. I've only been following it for about two months. Yet I've played GW1 for years. I will be playing GW2 on release and I will have a good time because I think A-net is a good developer. But I refuse to fool myself in thinking GW2 is suddenly going of re-write the way mmorpgs work.
If Rift was that much fun you wouldn't be here fighting futile forum battles.
Umm unlike some school kid I actually have to goto work. I'm posting here on my phone while I commute.
Oh, another i'm posting over a cellphone while i ............. excuse ? So you like to fight forum battles all the time ay ? What will it be next time ? I'm posting here on my phone while i'm taking a crap ? And why are you even here ? Shouldn't you be discussing Rifts gameplay subjects instead of lurking GW2 discussions ?
PS: Oh, we're falling back to the retarded ''school kid'' ad hominem attacks? Just shows how incompetent you are to properly defend your self.
Man, who cares if he's posting from his cell phone? Just because you're pissed doesn't mean you should attack him for something so off topic. Learn to debate without crossing the "troll" line.
He's simply stating he's browsing the forums to pass the time while he commutes, there's nothing wrong with that. Learn to see his post for what it is, instead of seeing it as a direct attack on you. (which I hardly saw it that way)
It won't for groups you will still need someone that tanks, DPS, support and heals. People act as if dynamic events will end the quest grind when the reality of it is, it's the same old thing they just remove the need to go talk too a quest giver first.
Once I read that, I couldn't help but laugh at the stupidity. Good luck to you buddy. Hope you have a great time realizing that you're wrong.
Once again, a poster that has merely taken the post of a poster without seeing his tone and his attitude towards GW2, which if I may add is a good one at least.
Please read that he is only reflecting on the fact that dynamic events may not be the "be all" but that he still continues to see games for their enjoyment without being too critical.
I do agree that I try to play an MMORPG for the enjoyment, without being too critical and judging that: "hey it's not perfect! It's not MY pie in the sky!!"
I'm used to it. They dont realize that I've been following GW2 much longer than Rift. Yet I'm a rift fanboy... Rift was a surprise for me, I had no idea the game was going to be fun. I've only been following it for about two months. Yet I've played GW1 for years. I will be playing GW2 on release and I will have a good time because I think A-net is a good developer. But I refuse to fool myself in thinking GW2 is suddenly going of re-write the way mmorpgs work.
If Rift was that much fun you wouldn't be here fighting futile forum battles.
Umm unlike some school kid I actually have to goto work. I'm posting here on my phone while I commute. Also this isn't forum pvp, I have no agenda, I couldn't careless if you guys play rift... I mean seriously I'm going to play GW2 also does it make much sense to sway gw2 fans if I intend to play it?
Regardless of who you are and how long youv been following GW2 your still wrong. There is no healer class. There are classes that can heal, but its been specifically said that those heals will in NO way get you through group content. You have to rely on yourself to heal and others to support.
Welcome to the holy trinity people!!!!!
Someones going to need to soak up damage, someone will need to do damage, someone will need to support.
It doesnt matter if everyone could fill all roles, what matters is that all roles are required.
It won't for groups you will still need someone that tanks, DPS, support and heals. People act as if dynamic events will end the quest grind when the reality of it is, it's the same old thing they just remove the need to go talk too a quest giver first.
Once I read that, I couldn't help but laugh at the stupidity. Good luck to you buddy. Hope you have a great time realizing that you're wrong.
Once again, a poster that has merely taken the post of a poster without seeing his tone and his attitude towards GW2, which if I may add is a good one at least.
Please read that he is only reflecting on the fact that dynamic events may not be the "be all" but that he still continues to see games for their enjoyment without being too critical.
I do agree that I try to play an MMORPG for the enjoyment, without being too critical and judging that: "hey it's not perfect! It's not MY pie in the sky!!"
I'm used to it. They dont realize that I've been following GW2 much longer than Rift. Yet I'm a rift fanboy... Rift was a surprise for me, I had no idea the game was going to be fun. I've only been following it for about two months. Yet I've played GW1 for years. I will be playing GW2 on release and I will have a good time because I think A-net is a good developer. But I refuse to fool myself in thinking GW2 is suddenly going of re-write the way mmorpgs work.
If Rift was that much fun you wouldn't be here fighting futile forum battles.
Umm unlike some school kid I actually have to goto work. I'm posting here on my phone while I commute.
Oh, another i'm posting over a cellphone while i ............. excuse ? So you like to fight forum battles all the time ay ? What will it be next time ? I'm posting here on my phone while i'm taking a crap ? And why are you even here ? Shouldn't you be discussing Rifts gameplay subjects instead of lurking GW2 discussions ?
PS: Oh, we're falling back to the retarded ''school kid'' ad hominem attacks? Just shows how incompetent you are to properly defend your self.
Man, who cares if he's posting from his cell phone? Just because you're pissed doesn't mean you should attack him for something so off topic. Learn to debate without crossing the "troll" line.
He's simply stating he's browsing the forums to pass the time while he commutes, there's nothing wrong with that. Learn to see his post for what it is, instead of seeing it as a direct attack on you. (which I hardly saw it that way)
Im being attacked because they dont like the idea of GW2 not being the most innovative genre saving experience eva!!!! People need to relax im not a hater and will pre-order and play Gw2 just like the rest of them.
It won't for groups you will still need someone that tanks, DPS, support and heals. People act as if dynamic events will end the quest grind when the reality of it is, it's the same old thing they just remove the need to go talk too a quest giver first.
Once I read that, I couldn't help but laugh at the stupidity. Good luck to you buddy. Hope you have a great time realizing that you're wrong.
Once again, a poster that has merely taken the post of a poster without seeing his tone and his attitude towards GW2, which if I may add is a good one at least.
Please read that he is only reflecting on the fact that dynamic events may not be the "be all" but that he still continues to see games for their enjoyment without being too critical.
I do agree that I try to play an MMORPG for the enjoyment, without being too critical and judging that: "hey it's not perfect! It's not MY pie in the sky!!"
Actually, Kaynok is correct in that Rockgod99 is wrong, but I would not have gone so far as to blast him for stupidity.
You may look at it like Rockgod99 is being critical, or that he will enjoy the game but not consider it the savior of MMOs, but the truth is that his post shows a clear lack of understanding of both the dynamic events and the de-emphasis of the holy trinity.
If the only thing different about dynamic events was that you didn't need to talk to a questgiver first, that would still be a welcome change. But they are hugely, fundamentally different than traditional quests.
The biggest difference is that they run whether players are there or not. This might seem like a small thing, but it's deceptively important. It allows for much more diverse victory conditions than a traditional quest model. A typical quest might be to kill bandits. But 99 times out of 100, they're off in a camp somewhere waiting for you to come kill them. Compare that to an event, which might be to kill bandits in order to keep them from burning hay bales. To do this in a traditional quest system, you would need to talk to a questgiver who then spawns bandits that attack. Hugely unimmersive.
Events scale based on participation. You don't need to show up for the beginning. You don't have to wait for your friend to catch up to you in the quest line before continuing. You don't both have to loot 10 items off the ground. They're purely cooperative. There's no kill stealing or fighting over mobs.
And then on top of it, to prevent griefing by 1-shotting events, the game mentors you down to a strong but appropriate level for each event. And events run in cycles, so they're not like quests which you do once and then have to move on and then you can only see it again by rerolling another toon or helping someone else if they need it. You can redo any event, at an appropriate level for it, at any time it's running.
Likewise, with the holy trinity system, just compare GW2 to WoW. In WoW, you have a tank who focuses solely on defensive attributes. Nobody else in the party could tank practically anything for more than 2 seconds. It's most efficient for healers to focus on healing, and a waste of mana for them to DPS, so they just play whack-a-mole with life bars the whole time. DPS, all they can do is DPS, so they just run a rotation which is the same for every encounter. Occasionally, one or more people might have to CC something. That's the extent of control.
With the GW2 system, mobs won't just attack the heavily armored guy whose attacks are generating additional threat. They're going to try to kill the squishy people. Offensive abilities are cheap, and defensive are expensive. So you're much better off proactively snaring that mob before it gets to the caster than you are trying to heal them afterwards. This also means everybody is involved in taking down the mob, not just healbotting. In a traditional trinity system, if the tank dies, you pretty much wipe it up unless you have an offtank and/or battle rez. In this system anybody can rez anybody at any time, so it's much more fluid. Someone can die and people can work together to try to survive while someone else rezzes them. You might still have people with more of a healing focus than just their one self heal, but heals in this game are AOE and very often tied to offensive abilities as well (rain that damages enemies and heals allies, for instance). People can also switch roles completely anytime outside of combat, or to a degree in combat by having two sets of weapons.
I'm not in any way saying that GW2 is the "be all end all" MMO. I think it's very important to have a critical eye and to await the game with reasonable expectations. But to be critical and have that criticism be valid, you need to show an understanding of what the game is about.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Im not wrong because i didnt go into detail on dynamic events im aware they are deeper than a quest flashing onto my screen. im looking forward to them. To say i wont need to talk to a quest giver is true.
I will run into an area and then a quest objective will pop onto my screen just like it did in WAR, Just like it does in Rift.
Even though the event presists its still just a group focused quest that saved me the trouble of clicking a NPC.
Also the holy trinity will be present.
Yeah you can heal yourself, but people also have options to use spells to heal you. Sure everyone can soak up damage or grab the attention of a mob, that doesnt mean it isnt still required, Dps is a given and people will have support abilities that go beyond self bufing.
If someone is taking Mob hate, if someone is Dpsing, If someone is tossing out buffs and debuffing and if someone has the ability to heal someone else in "Oh shit situations" what is that called? The holy trinity.
Wertheand the other poster calling people stupid (forgot his name ), you are taking it too far. Discussion should be focused on arguments relevant to the topic. There is no need for personal insults.
@Rockgod99, no one knows if Gw2 will change the MMO genre. I will just wait and see. But any game has the potential to make a difference. We all know that one game did shake the genre to its very foundations. Any game might do it. You never know. I am not saying that GW2 will do it but it is not out of the question.
ArenaNet's GW1 was very different to other MMOs. It did not influence the MMO genre but it was revolutionary and creative. However, people did not even give it a chance because it was not a persistent world which is their loss, imo. However, in my opinion, ArenaNet is the most creative MMO company not only at the moment but eversince they released GW1. So if anyone can bring some fresh air into the genre, I bet it would be ArenaNet.
GW has a lot of fans who are NOT mmo players. I have quite a few friends who only played GW as their MMO. I tried to introduce them to other MMOs but they were bored with them. To them MMOs were boring, void of any action and story. So the question I got mostly was 'when does the actual fun starts'. I replied that this is what they would be doing to level cap. This turned them off. And when they heard they have to gather 20+ people for a raid, they were like 'are you insane, why do you need 20+ people when you can do a dungeon with 5-8 people. I am leaving'. GW1 did a lot of thins right. Things which most MMOs got wrong.
It also has the potential to attract players from other genres because it doesn't have a sub.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
there are MMO vets who know how the genre is stagnating and see the difference in GW2 and they get hyped about it, thus creating the hype big enough to inspire magazines to call it the future of MMORPGs..
so GW2 being the savior of MMOs is just a fancy title the gaming magazines gave it to it to have bigger sales...
Then there are people who'll see the title, buy the game not knowing anything about it and they'll dissapointingly saying "it's the same shit all over again plus I have 10 skills only wtf.." before they get to know what DE actually is..
GW2 will not revolutionize the genre, but hopefully, it'll take the whole genre and investors into the right direction,because they'll see that creating something original and different is much more benefitial than creating WoW 1.5 ...
yes there are similarities, but more on the principles FPS games are similar, but still very different if you consider for ex. Bioshock and F.E.A.R.
The point is people who think it will be something completely new and revolutionising just dont know enough about the game..
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
You better take that break because once this game releases all your going to see is "it's the same old stuff" and "Gw2 a real mmo?" over and over again. Guild wars will be a good game but the things people are excited about aren't that revolutionary. As an example people are acting as having no dedicated healing classes will be the end of the holy trinity system. It won't for groups you will still need someone that tanks, DPS, support and heals. People act as if dynamic events will end the quest grind when the reality of it is, it's the same old thing they just remove the need to go talk too a quest giver first. The biggest kicker and one that I feel will be the biggest talked about negative of the game will be the single player rpg personal storyline which is much more important than the dynamic system when it comes down to the individual. So please, listen to the OP, stop playing mmorpgs because if you don't you will be disappointed.
I dont really think that GW2 will be getting rid of the holy trinity either because in any game where you group you need people to fill a roll. What GW2 is trying to do though is let anyone fill a roll and do it on the fly. Similar to the role system of Rifts but you wont need to advertise for certain roles. You will probably just have to decide everyones role and job on a per battle basis and even then you should be able to adjust tactics on the fly. Some classes are better than others at certain roles but every class should be able to fill multiple roles.
Dynamic events allow you to do something that the quest grind and going from hub to hub dont allow you to do and that is explore. You dont have to follow this quest to this quest to this quest hub. You should be able to go out and just discover content. The way you identify content is totally up to the player though. You might use a scout to find events or you might run around until something pops up on your screen or you might even pay attention to what is going on in the world itself and follow your eyes to the action.
To me those are differences that have my interest peaked.
The point is people who think it will be something completely new and revolutionising just dont know enough about the game..
It will be very different to your traditional MMO. GW1 was and I am pretty confident GW2 will also be.
If it will change the genre itself, I don't know. People in the west are very similar to players in Asia. They enjoy grinding for hours on end. If there is no grind for them it means there is no content.
I think many people who didn't like GW1 will also not like GW2. It might be a persistent world this time around but the core principle still remains - no grind, quick leveling, even and fair competition.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
The point is people who think it will be something completely new and revolutionising just dont know enough about the game..
It will be very different to your traditional MMO. GW1 was and I am pretty confident GW2 will also be.
If it will change the genre itself, I don't know. People in the west are very similar to players in Asia. They enjoy grinding for hours on end. If there is no grind for them it means there is no content.
I think many people who didn't like GW1 will also not like GW2. It might be a persistent world this time around but the core principle still remains - no grind, quick leveling, even and fair competition.
A-Net themselves consider GW1 a Co-rpg not a MMORPG. totally different genre so no GW1 didnt change anything in the mmo genre. it was a great game though. Are you trying to say GW2 will mostly be a Co-rpg also? watch it man, people dont like that kind of speak here.
Someones going to need to soak up damage, someone will need to do damage, someone will need to support.
It doesnt matter if everyone could fill all roles, what matters is that all roles are required.
Except you're missing the main point... there won't be individuals assigned to one role. Martin himself said that anyone trying to use the guardian purely as a tank will spend most of the time on his back screaming for help. Everyone will have to take some part of every role, hence the lack of a "trinity" where person A tanks, person B heals the tank and Persons C thru E pew-pew from a safe distance. You'll be primarily responsible for your own heals with some abilities to share lesser heals with allies. You'll share in the controlling of the enemy to prevent damage, not absorb it. And yes, you'll share in the damaging of the enemies. There are no tanks standing there sucking it all up. There are no dedicated healers keeping one person alive through massive damage. There are no purely dps people hiding in the back pew-pewing away.
The point is people who think it will be something completely new and revolutionising just dont know enough about the game..
It will be very different to your traditional MMO. GW1 was and I am pretty confident GW2 will also be.
If it will change the genre itself, I don't know. People in the west are very similar to players in Asia. They enjoy grinding for hours on end. If there is no grind for them it means there is no content.
I think many people who didn't like GW1 will also not like GW2. It might be a persistent world this time around but the core principle still remains - no grind, quick leveling, even and fair competition.
A-Net themselves consider GW1 a Co-rpg not a MMORPG. totally different genre so no GW1 didnt change anything in the mmo genre. it was a great game though. Are you trying to say GW2 will mostly be a Co-rpg also? watch it man, people dont like that kind of speak here.
the numbers say the opposite, most here doesnt want MMOs, they want Co-rpgs, so that is what we get, and while Ive not played GW1 other than when it were in beta and a trial a couple months back, it have evolved into being as much of a MMO as EQ2 or WoW minus persistant world, when they considered GW1 to be a Co-rpg, you were standing at a gate, waiting for a group to get to the next hub, fight through an area, with an objective and get to the next hub, its not like that anymore at all....atleast in the trial p
Someones going to need to soak up damage, someone will need to do damage, someone will need to support.
It doesnt matter if everyone could fill all roles, what matters is that all roles are required.
Except you're missing the main point... there won't be individuals assigned to one role. Martin himself said that anyone trying to use the guardian purely as a tank will spend most of the time on his back screaming for help. Everyone will have to take some part of every role, hence the lack of a "trinity" where person A tanks, person B heals the tank and Persons C thru E pew-pew from a safe distance. You'll be primarily responsible for your own heals with some abilities to share lesser heals with allies. You'll share in the controlling of the enemy to prevent damage, not absorb it. And yes, you'll share in the damaging of the enemies. There are no tanks standing there sucking it all up. There are no dedicated healers keeping one person alive through massive damage. There are no purely dps people hiding in the back pew-pewing away.
There is no trinity.
Fullfilling multiple roles with one character doesnt mean the mechanics dont call for the holy trinity. Ill agree its kinda cool that you could do everything but im sure as the event progresses you will have to change shit up to fill a role even if its for a few seconds.
Its a fact we will never get rid of the holytrinity when it comes to pve encounters. The best we can do is let everyone fill all roles on the fly. If encounters truely needed no roles full filled then all anyone would need to do is Dps and self heal... it would be boring.
If everyone is taking Mob hate, if everyone is Dpsing, If everyone is tossing out buffs and debuffing and if everyone has the ability to heal everyone else in "Oh shit situations" what is that called? The holy trinity.
Fixed it for ya, a plane isnt a car just because it has the ability to drive on ground, the holy trinity setup is not a matter of opinion, the idea behind is set in stone and.... really simple.
The point is people who think it will be something completely new and revolutionising just dont know enough about the game..
It will be very different to your traditional MMO. GW1 was and I am pretty confident GW2 will also be.
If it will change the genre itself, I don't know. People in the west are very similar to players in Asia. They enjoy grinding for hours on end. If there is no grind for them it means there is no content.
I think many people who didn't like GW1 will also not like GW2. It might be a persistent world this time around but the core principle still remains - no grind, quick leveling, even and fair competition.
A-Net themselves consider GW1 a Co-rpg not a MMORPG. totally different genre so no GW1 didnt change anything in the mmo genre. it was a great game though. Are you trying to say GW2 will mostly be a Co-rpg also? watch it man, people dont like that kind of speak here.
the numbers say the opposite, most here doesnt want MMOs, they want Co-rpgs, so that is what we get, and while Ive not played GW1 other than when it were in beta and a trial a couple months back, it have evolved into being as much of a MMO as EQ2 or WoW minus persistant world, when they considered GW1 to be a Co-rpg, you were standing at a gate, waiting for a group to get to the next hub, fight through an area, with an objective and get to the next hub, its not like that anymore at all....atleast in the trial p
It is still like that. GW has changed much in this respect during the years.
@Rockgod99, well CORPG is the term they prefer. They didn't change the genre but their game was very unique. No MMO compares to it. There are no other multiplayer games that compare to it to be honest. I don't think there is a genre CORPG. This is what they chose to name it.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
wow, i came here expecting some intellegent thought, and just got some guys ramblings about MMO's.
How is GW even considered an MMO anyway, it's just all instancing. DOnt' get me wrong, GW is awesome, I was the first monk to complete the original game, but I really don't see how it's an MMO. it's about as much MMO as TF2 is MMO.
Well ill agree that GW rocked face. I consider it one of the best PC games ive ever played. If Gw2 shares certain mechanics with Gw1 i wouldnt mind because i loved that game.
I can see the haters on this forum using it as ammunition though. Since GW1 is technically refered to as a Co-rpg when gw2 also chares similar mechanics the negative, doom and gloomers will bring that up and question if the game is a true mmorpg or not.
Can't you see the argument already? "How is this a persistent world if my entire personal storyline that I follow is my own instance?" I mean jesus i could see the forum blowing up over this topic can you?
Well ill agree that GW rocked face. I consider it one of the best PC games ive ever played. If Gw2 shares certain mechanics with Gw1 i wouldnt mind because i loved that game.
I can see the haters on this forum using it as ammunition though. Since GW1 is technically refered to as a Co-rpg when gw2 also chares similar mechanics the negative, doom and gloomers will bring that up and question if the game is a true mmorpg or not.
Can't you see the argument already? "How is this a persistent world if my entire personal storyline that I follow is my own instance?" I mean jesus i couls see the forum blowing up over this topic can you?
Thankfully ill ignore it and just keep playing.
Rock i don't need to imagine it. ToR went through that very same thing about 3 to 5 months ago. Had a heck of a time trying to convince people the single player storyline wasn't the entire game
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
The removal of the "the HOLY trinity" doesn't remove the trinity!
the removal of dedicated healers, tanks and pure dps doesn't remove the fundementals in the design behind it !
Roles based upon support, control and damage! Heavy armour allows you to be a front line character, and light armour puts you in the back. Its actual quite simple. and if you don't get it medium put you in the middle. And from there there is support ,damage, controll roles to pick based on design.
Any efficient group in PvE or PvP will require its members to fullfill a role and play the position its character allows. And thesse will be based on support , control and damage. There should be no surprise in this!
What we can and should ekspect is 2 thing but none of them change the fundementals above.
1) is that classes can be designed to different roles.
2) because of skills and energy management classes will be able to sub for each other at cruical moments.
so in short, during combat a dps, or a support role can be designed to also be able to step up and take a controll role while needed, maybe relieving a preasured frontline controller a little while.
All this doesn't remove the trinity, but it makes for another gameplay than the HOLY trinity! A far more dynamic and interesting gameplay thats what we all hope for! But its still a trinity!
Comments
You make an interesting comparison. You are right, I am preparing myself to potentially (intrinsically) accept GW2, but the sole reason been is that I can't go on for time reasons to search for my "pie in the sky." I don't have an accurate judge on whether or not I am intrinsically liking this game or not. Whether or not I do, like you say, put that ice-cream back is one question indeed, but unlike ice-cream an MMORPG can be just put back and forgotten about. An ice-cream once eaten can't be put back but I hope that the new elements will make GW2 refreshing again.
It's amazes me how someone can type so much when they know so little. Amazes me.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Lol dude ... how many times are you going to use this stupid argument.
Please look for other arguments, because you start to look silly.
Regardless of who you are and how long youv been following GW2 your still wrong. There is no healer class. There are classes that can heal, but its been specifically said that those heals will in NO way get you through group content. You have to rely on yourself to heal and others to support.
I gotta agree with you there man. Good points.
Before playing DCUO, I was like Voice Overs are everything thing for me in MMO. But after playing DCUO, I realize that I want to be part of a community and how the the loot system works is just as important.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
Its going to be fun watching you cry on the forums because GW2 doesnt live up to your expectations while im enjoying myself in game.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Man, who cares if he's posting from his cell phone? Just because you're pissed doesn't mean you should attack him for something so off topic. Learn to debate without crossing the "troll" line.
He's simply stating he's browsing the forums to pass the time while he commutes, there's nothing wrong with that. Learn to see his post for what it is, instead of seeing it as a direct attack on you. (which I hardly saw it that way)
Welcome to the holy trinity people!!!!!
Someones going to need to soak up damage, someone will need to do damage, someone will need to support.
It doesnt matter if everyone could fill all roles, what matters is that all roles are required.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Im being attacked because they dont like the idea of GW2 not being the most innovative genre saving experience eva!!!! People need to relax im not a hater and will pre-order and play Gw2 just like the rest of them.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Actually, Kaynok is correct in that Rockgod99 is wrong, but I would not have gone so far as to blast him for stupidity.
You may look at it like Rockgod99 is being critical, or that he will enjoy the game but not consider it the savior of MMOs, but the truth is that his post shows a clear lack of understanding of both the dynamic events and the de-emphasis of the holy trinity.
If the only thing different about dynamic events was that you didn't need to talk to a questgiver first, that would still be a welcome change. But they are hugely, fundamentally different than traditional quests.
The biggest difference is that they run whether players are there or not. This might seem like a small thing, but it's deceptively important. It allows for much more diverse victory conditions than a traditional quest model. A typical quest might be to kill bandits. But 99 times out of 100, they're off in a camp somewhere waiting for you to come kill them. Compare that to an event, which might be to kill bandits in order to keep them from burning hay bales. To do this in a traditional quest system, you would need to talk to a questgiver who then spawns bandits that attack. Hugely unimmersive.
Events scale based on participation. You don't need to show up for the beginning. You don't have to wait for your friend to catch up to you in the quest line before continuing. You don't both have to loot 10 items off the ground. They're purely cooperative. There's no kill stealing or fighting over mobs.
And then on top of it, to prevent griefing by 1-shotting events, the game mentors you down to a strong but appropriate level for each event. And events run in cycles, so they're not like quests which you do once and then have to move on and then you can only see it again by rerolling another toon or helping someone else if they need it. You can redo any event, at an appropriate level for it, at any time it's running.
Likewise, with the holy trinity system, just compare GW2 to WoW. In WoW, you have a tank who focuses solely on defensive attributes. Nobody else in the party could tank practically anything for more than 2 seconds. It's most efficient for healers to focus on healing, and a waste of mana for them to DPS, so they just play whack-a-mole with life bars the whole time. DPS, all they can do is DPS, so they just run a rotation which is the same for every encounter. Occasionally, one or more people might have to CC something. That's the extent of control.
With the GW2 system, mobs won't just attack the heavily armored guy whose attacks are generating additional threat. They're going to try to kill the squishy people. Offensive abilities are cheap, and defensive are expensive. So you're much better off proactively snaring that mob before it gets to the caster than you are trying to heal them afterwards. This also means everybody is involved in taking down the mob, not just healbotting. In a traditional trinity system, if the tank dies, you pretty much wipe it up unless you have an offtank and/or battle rez. In this system anybody can rez anybody at any time, so it's much more fluid. Someone can die and people can work together to try to survive while someone else rezzes them. You might still have people with more of a healing focus than just their one self heal, but heals in this game are AOE and very often tied to offensive abilities as well (rain that damages enemies and heals allies, for instance). People can also switch roles completely anytime outside of combat, or to a degree in combat by having two sets of weapons.
I'm not in any way saying that GW2 is the "be all end all" MMO. I think it's very important to have a critical eye and to await the game with reasonable expectations. But to be critical and have that criticism be valid, you need to show an understanding of what the game is about.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Im not wrong because i didnt go into detail on dynamic events im aware they are deeper than a quest flashing onto my screen. im looking forward to them. To say i wont need to talk to a quest giver is true.
I will run into an area and then a quest objective will pop onto my screen just like it did in WAR, Just like it does in Rift.
Even though the event presists its still just a group focused quest that saved me the trouble of clicking a NPC.
Also the holy trinity will be present.
Yeah you can heal yourself, but people also have options to use spells to heal you. Sure everyone can soak up damage or grab the attention of a mob, that doesnt mean it isnt still required, Dps is a given and people will have support abilities that go beyond self bufing.
If someone is taking Mob hate, if someone is Dpsing, If someone is tossing out buffs and debuffing and if someone has the ability to heal someone else in "Oh shit situations" what is that called? The holy trinity.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Werthe and the other poster calling people stupid (forgot his name
), you are taking it too far. Discussion should be focused on arguments relevant to the topic. There is no need for personal insults.
@Rockgod99, no one knows if Gw2 will change the MMO genre. I will just wait and see. But any game has the potential to make a difference. We all know that one game did shake the genre to its very foundations. Any game might do it. You never know. I am not saying that GW2 will do it but it is not out of the question.
ArenaNet's GW1 was very different to other MMOs. It did not influence the MMO genre but it was revolutionary and creative. However, people did not even give it a chance because it was not a persistent world which is their loss, imo. However, in my opinion, ArenaNet is the most creative MMO company not only at the moment but eversince they released GW1. So if anyone can bring some fresh air into the genre, I bet it would be ArenaNet.
GW has a lot of fans who are NOT mmo players. I have quite a few friends who only played GW as their MMO. I tried to introduce them to other MMOs but they were bored with them. To them MMOs were boring, void of any action and story. So the question I got mostly was 'when does the actual fun starts'. I replied that this is what they would be doing to level cap. This turned them off. And when they heard they have to gather 20+ people for a raid, they were like 'are you insane, why do you need 20+ people when you can do a dungeon with 5-8 people. I am leaving'. GW1 did a lot of thins right. Things which most MMOs got wrong.
It also has the potential to attract players from other genres because it doesn't have a sub.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
there are MMO vets who know how the genre is stagnating and see the difference in GW2 and they get hyped about it, thus creating the hype big enough to inspire magazines to call it the future of MMORPGs..
so GW2 being the savior of MMOs is just a fancy title the gaming magazines gave it to it to have bigger sales...
Then there are people who'll see the title, buy the game not knowing anything about it and they'll dissapointingly saying "it's the same shit all over again plus I have 10 skills only wtf.." before they get to know what DE actually is..
GW2 will not revolutionize the genre, but hopefully, it'll take the whole genre and investors into the right direction,because they'll see that creating something original and different is much more benefitial than creating WoW 1.5 ...
yes there are similarities, but more on the principles FPS games are similar, but still very different if you consider for ex. Bioshock and F.E.A.R.
The point is people who think it will be something completely new and revolutionising just dont know enough about the game..
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
I dont really think that GW2 will be getting rid of the holy trinity either because in any game where you group you need people to fill a roll. What GW2 is trying to do though is let anyone fill a roll and do it on the fly. Similar to the role system of Rifts but you wont need to advertise for certain roles. You will probably just have to decide everyones role and job on a per battle basis and even then you should be able to adjust tactics on the fly. Some classes are better than others at certain roles but every class should be able to fill multiple roles.
Dynamic events allow you to do something that the quest grind and going from hub to hub dont allow you to do and that is explore. You dont have to follow this quest to this quest to this quest hub. You should be able to go out and just discover content. The way you identify content is totally up to the player though. You might use a scout to find events or you might run around until something pops up on your screen or you might even pay attention to what is going on in the world itself and follow your eyes to the action.
To me those are differences that have my interest peaked.
It will be very different to your traditional MMO. GW1 was and I am pretty confident GW2 will also be.
If it will change the genre itself, I don't know. People in the west are very similar to players in Asia. They enjoy grinding for hours on end. If there is no grind for them it means there is no content.
I think many people who didn't like GW1 will also not like GW2. It might be a persistent world this time around but the core principle still remains - no grind, quick leveling, even and fair competition.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
A-Net themselves consider GW1 a Co-rpg not a MMORPG. totally different genre so no GW1 didnt change anything in the mmo genre. it was a great game though. Are you trying to say GW2 will mostly be a Co-rpg also? watch it man, people dont like that kind of speak here.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Except you're missing the main point... there won't be individuals assigned to one role. Martin himself said that anyone trying to use the guardian purely as a tank will spend most of the time on his back screaming for help. Everyone will have to take some part of every role, hence the lack of a "trinity" where person A tanks, person B heals the tank and Persons C thru E pew-pew from a safe distance. You'll be primarily responsible for your own heals with some abilities to share lesser heals with allies. You'll share in the controlling of the enemy to prevent damage, not absorb it. And yes, you'll share in the damaging of the enemies. There are no tanks standing there sucking it all up. There are no dedicated healers keeping one person alive through massive damage. There are no purely dps people hiding in the back pew-pewing away.
There is no trinity.
Oderint, dum metuant.
the numbers say the opposite, most here doesnt want MMOs, they want Co-rpgs, so that is what we get, and while Ive not played GW1 other than when it were in beta and a trial a couple months back, it have evolved into being as much of a MMO as EQ2 or WoW minus persistant world, when they considered GW1 to be a Co-rpg, you were standing at a gate, waiting for a group to get to the next hub, fight through an area, with an objective and get to the next hub, its not like that anymore at all....atleast in the trial p
Fullfilling multiple roles with one character doesnt mean the mechanics dont call for the holy trinity. Ill agree its kinda cool that you could do everything but im sure as the event progresses you will have to change shit up to fill a role even if its for a few seconds.
Its a fact we will never get rid of the holytrinity when it comes to pve encounters. The best we can do is let everyone fill all roles on the fly. If encounters truely needed no roles full filled then all anyone would need to do is Dps and self heal... it would be boring.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Fixed it for ya, a plane isnt a car just because it has the ability to drive on ground, the holy trinity setup is not a matter of opinion, the idea behind is set in stone and.... really simple.
It is still like that. GW has changed much in this respect during the years.
@Rockgod99, well CORPG is the term they prefer. They didn't change the genre but their game was very unique. No MMO compares to it. There are no other multiplayer games that compare to it to be honest. I don't think there is a genre CORPG. This is what they chose to name it.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
wow, i came here expecting some intellegent thought, and just got some guys ramblings about MMO's.
How is GW even considered an MMO anyway, it's just all instancing. DOnt' get me wrong, GW is awesome, I was the first monk to complete the original game, but I really don't see how it's an MMO. it's about as much MMO as TF2 is MMO.
PLAY WURM ONLINE!! www.wurmonline.com
Well ill agree that GW rocked face. I consider it one of the best PC games ive ever played. If Gw2 shares certain mechanics with Gw1 i wouldnt mind because i loved that game.
I can see the haters on this forum using it as ammunition though. Since GW1 is technically refered to as a Co-rpg when gw2 also chares similar mechanics the negative, doom and gloomers will bring that up and question if the game is a true mmorpg or not.
Can't you see the argument already? "How is this a persistent world if my entire personal storyline that I follow is my own instance?" I mean jesus i could see the forum blowing up over this topic can you?
Thankfully ill ignore it and just keep playing.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Rock i don't need to imagine it. ToR went through that very same thing about 3 to 5 months ago. Had a heck of a time trying to convince people the single player storyline wasn't the entire game
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
The removal of the "the HOLY trinity" doesn't remove the trinity!
the removal of dedicated healers, tanks and pure dps doesn't remove the fundementals in the design behind it !
Roles based upon support, control and damage! Heavy armour allows you to be a front line character, and light armour puts you in the back. Its actual quite simple. and if you don't get it medium put you in the middle. And from there there is support ,damage, controll roles to pick based on design.
Any efficient group in PvE or PvP will require its members to fullfill a role and play the position its character allows. And thesse will be based on support , control and damage. There should be no surprise in this!
What we can and should ekspect is 2 thing but none of them change the fundementals above.
1) is that classes can be designed to different roles.
2) because of skills and energy management classes will be able to sub for each other at cruical moments.
so in short, during combat a dps, or a support role can be designed to also be able to step up and take a controll role while needed, maybe relieving a preasured frontline controller a little while.
All this doesn't remove the trinity, but it makes for another gameplay than the HOLY trinity! A far more dynamic and interesting gameplay thats what we all hope for! But its still a trinity!