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INNOVATION - Is it strangling our community?

I will admit I am hesitant to post on this topic as it is near and dear to so many of us here. Not long ago I posted a discussion on what gamers want and the general responses were mixed but this word showed up constantly "innovation". No matter where I go on these boards there is an opinion on Innovation in our community. No matter if you consider yourself hardcore or casual, if you like sandbox or themepark or even fps it seems there are strong emotions tied to innovation and the current state of our community. 

 

I have seen many post stating that there is a general lack of innovation coming from developers. I will not go into detail stating game by game but generally it seems many who see what is coming down the pipeline have a feeling of dejavu. It seems there is a strong opinion that there is simply nothing new to the titles up for release. The design, graphics, gameplay elements, and other features are all similiar to whats already on the market.

 

What seems to cause further frustration is that many of us are  not satisfied by what is already on the market. Another major complaint was that the games that were bought and initially thought as innovative over time grew into games they had already played before. It seems a certain section of gamers were simply alienated. The games they had once felt were innovative moved toward the current trends and never went back.

 

These events appear to have create a group of gamers who want to play MMOs but have no MMOs to call home. Those who initailly purchase new titles find they have no longevity and leave them. Many simply cant fiind a game they are willing to play as nothing new has anything new and thus cant peak their interest.  Many of them go from Beta to beta searching for a game to sustain them but often come up empty handed. As one forum member stated they become "burnouts" due to this constant disapointment.

 

Many have stated that the developers could be held responsible for this issue. They state that there is a lack of new ideas. . Many seem to feel that the developers simply arent trying to diverge from the current path out of fear of failure, that the developers are simply not trying new things because they feel players simply wont play their games if they do.  They state that it is this very fear that has placed a stranglehold on innovation.

 

Others have found the cause for this lack of innovation within the communty itself. They state that it is the desire for innovation that has caused the dismal performance of many of the titles that have come out in the last few years. Players wanting something new while being so familiar with what is currently available not only diminishes opportunties for innovation but makes innovations that do present themselves less meaningful.

 

I want to propose the idea that perhaps its innovation itself that is the problem. Often when wanting something new we fail to see that what we have is the result of years of innovation reaching it's peek. It does not mean further innovation is impossible but it may mean that it will be some time before we see a shift. As i have been told many times in my life "if it aint broke then dont fix it." However, if it wasn't broke wouldn't we continue to play games without this issue?

 

I do not have the answers but I would love to discuss this topic seriously.

 

NOTE: I dont have a TL;DR for this I tried to present what I have seen to the best of my ablities. Please excuse the length and try to read it all thank you.

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Comments

  • miagisanmiagisan Member Posts: 5,156

    the community is strangling the community

    image

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    From an Indie perspective, here is how I see it.

     

    The problem with MMOs lately has to do with designers mis-understanding the MMO playerbase, and then failing to market their games to people who will like them.

     

    There are gamers who play MMOs.  There are also non-gamers who play MMOs....

     

    Gamers are people who take their gaming beyond seriously.  15 years ago they were playing half-life, counter strike, some were playing MUDs, more than a few knew the basics or beyond for pen 'n paper role playing games.  Seldom did a big hit single player game come out that they didn't spend 50+ hours playing.

     

    Non-gamers may have seen or played a few, but nothing indepth.

     

    Gamers want a challenge and a deep world.  The non-gamers are in it for entertainment.

     

    World of Warcraft is in my understanding the main reason that non-gamers ended up playing MMOs.  The reason WHY is very important in this.  WoW advertises to general population, not just to gamers.  Who other than WoW has actually run ads on television?

     

    The reason for so many failures lately is that they design games for non-gamers (super easy UI and lots of hand-holding) and then advertise to gamers.  That's like showing beer commercials at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting.  Sure, general population likes beer, but the AA crowd sees it as the devil itself.

     

    Innovation and marketing has to match the desired playerbase.  What is innovative to mainstream players is simply watered-down boredom to gamers.  It's not that we don't see innovation.  We're seeing the wrong innovation, assuming the target is gamers, not entertainment oriented game players.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • AlotAlot Member Posts: 1,948

    To the OP: No. The word "polish" is thing that's strangling our community. It's simply overused.

  • kirak2009kirak2009 Member UncommonPosts: 543

    Originally posted by miagisan

    the community is strangling the community

    QFT!!

    "All expectation leads to suffering" Buhhda

  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Member Posts: 4,640

    Players expecting every game to be completely different from one another are killing it.

    We play games in the mmorpg genre. Certain staples continue from game to game just like they do in any genre.

    Mmorpgs arent special, why should they be different than what any other genre is doing?

    In videogames from one to the next games are around 80-90% similar (within the same sub genre) and 10- 20% is filled with hooks and the developers own spin on things.

    image

    Playing: Rift, LotRO
    Waiting on: GW2, BP

  • scythe99scythe99 Member Posts: 326

    Its more like lack of innovation is killing the community. Most western mmorpg's now a days are wow clones, who try to out-wow wow. which they always fail to do. This below is from another posted in another thread that kinda hits the head on the nail.

    "An MMORPG could be completely diffirent from WoW. Just look at games like Dofus, Wizard101 or EVE. But as it is, most of the Western MMOs are trying to succeed by out-WoWing WoW. It's like an army of 10 sports games made about same sports, and barely none about other sports. WoW clone is an accurate description of those games, it manages to convey much information with only two words."

    "An MMORPG could be completely diffirent from WoW. Just look at games like Dofus, Wizard101 or EVE. But as it is, most of the Western MMOs are trying to succeed by out-WoWing WoW. It's like an army of 10 sports games made about same sports, and barely none about other sports. WoW clone is an accurate description of those games, it manages to convey much information with only two words."
    -Poster on mmorpg.com

    Rift: World of Warcraft clone #9321 Nothing special to see here move along.

  • ComnitusComnitus Member Posts: 2,462

    Good topic, and one that I believe is not as simple as "we want something new." I've noticed a few things. First, there are those that realize most new MMOs do have some degree of innovation, though they are by no means genre-changing. In most cases, they take the groundwork of previous, successful MMOs (WoW being the most common example, for obvious reasons) and add their own twists or spin. Commonly referred to as "WoW Clones"... just like every FPS in existence is a "Doom Clone."

    Then you have the crowd that wants revolution, or something that is so monumentally awesome that it will change the MMO genre forever. These people tend to be the most vocal because they believe that unless they speak up, developers will never hear them and their dreams will never come true. The problem here is that the "MMO genre" is really two main sub-genres - themeparks and sandboxes - and that makes things complicated. Also, genres evolve. Evolution takes a long time. While there are huge leaps forward from time to time, periods like the last couple of years (basically since WoW launched 7 years ago now) show that things move slowly between those leaps. Some would argue that WoW was even a leap at all, since all it did was combine and polish mechanics present in previous MMOs, but that's another debate.

    Now the third crowd comes in - those that want a return to the predominantly sandbox style of the first MMOs. In this day and age, where themepark dominates, a game that reintroduces sandbox concepts would certainly be considered "innovative", even though it's been done before. When they cry out for innovation, they usually say things like, "I want my choices to affect the world", or, "I want more fluid character development where I have precise control - no classes and limited gear-based stats!" Strangely enough, the genre seems to be moving towards a themepark-hybrid development model, and we may very well start seeing a few sandbox concepts (like exploration, deep crafting, and socializing mainly, with some robust character development and personalization thrown in) mixed with themepark mainstays like leveling up, questing, running dungeons, etc.

    Obviously, these are quick and broad definitions, and not everyone falls cleanly into these classifications. I personally fall in the first and third groups. I see the second group as a detriment to the community because they seem to never be satisfied and they're commonly the trolls. Their standards are set so high that perhaps if they want to play something that "doesn't feel like an MMO", they should play a game that isn't an MMO. Just my opinion, of course. I don't think the genre should, or will, ever stagnate completely - it will keep evolving. Though as I said, everything since 2004 has been pretty lackluster innovation-wise. We've had some creative and somewhat successful attempts at concepts like storytelling (LotRO), massive group PvP (Warhammer), and action-oriented combat (AoC), but the new crop of AAA MMOs coming out this year and in 2012 should be the huge gust of wind that propels us out of the doldrums we're floating in.

     

    Hell, then you have the fun task of defining what exactly "innovation" is. See the problem?

    image

  • exwinexwin Member Posts: 221

    I would say no to the asked question, introducing something new or different is not the problem. The problem is all the popular categorized mmos are kinda the same.

    Let's link it to the car industry. With no innovation, we would all be driving Model t cars with our only choice is the color. The current trend the almost caused the car companies to go under is the veriations of the same product. Look at the Ford Taurus. Same damn car as the Mercury Marquis and Lincoln has a model too. The only differance is the price and some fluff features. Does a dvd player, GPS, and more cup holders make it that much different or a better car? No.

    MMOs are doing the same thing. Let's take a popular game, make some tweaks and Shazam the Mercury Marquis. Box looks new, CGI trailor looks shinny, but 50 bucks and a dozen hours later, it's the same damn game. Kill 10 whatever is kill 10 whatever, be it ogres, kilingons/federation, supervillan thugs.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775

    in my view we have plenty of room for innovation inr games. Having said that here is my take on the subject as a whole.

    Compared to pen and paper RPG where coming up with a new game mechanic costs about as much as an afternoon and a few more pages in a book. Making a change in a MMO game, even simple one, is terribly expensive and the more expensive something is the more risky it is.

    Also, gamers expectations (as well as all 'users') grow over time. RIFT is a perfect example, everyone is saying 'well RIFT is just more of the same, and its completely true, but it also represents more than 10 years of progress other games have made but it is still just a 'baseline' atm. Games that are created now for have a basic 'baseline' have to have a great deal more to them then they did in the past.

    With that all said, we have several generations of possible innovations around gaming its an amazing technolgy that has possiblities has large as human imagination, its just terribly expensive to implement. One area in gaming barely even touched is where you dont actually have to kill something...oh my!

     

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,985

    The genre is in a period of stagnation and has been for years. Without any real innovation don't expect the genre to remain as popular as it is currently. All forms of entertainment require innovation and evolution in order to survive. Mmorpgs are no exception.

    Would it really be so bad for you guys if we had a few more studios step it up like CCP did back in '03?

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • aesperusaesperus Member UncommonPosts: 5,135

    Originally posted by Cecropia

    The genre is in a period of stagnation and has been for years.

    This is true, however the reasons aren't as simple as a 'lack of any real innovation'. This genre has been trying to innovate more than most of the other genres, for this very reason. The problem is the genre is already risky enough, and putting out a game that's too 'unfamiliar' tends to severely limit the number of people who will play the game. On top of this, a certain company has been blatantly ripping off of the biggest innovations almost immediately after we hear about them from other games. This is severely squashing the market, which is bad for us consumers, but good for the profits of a certain company.

    However, you can just look at some of the superhero MMOs, LotRO, Eve, GW, etc. to see that there is indeed innovation in this genre. It just tends to get cornered / overlooked.

  • SteamRangerSteamRanger Member UncommonPosts: 920

    I think part of the problem is the bored hordes that roam from one game to the next, yet want every new game to be exactly like the one they just left. These people loudly demand what they want from a new title on forums and are quick to shout down anyone who doesn't agree. Judging from the results, I'm afraid that many developers give them too much credence and wind up alienating the larger portion of their potential playerbase.

    Innovation is what is needed. Instead we seem trapped in an endless loop of imitation.

    "Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
    "People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift

  • mainvein33mainvein33 Member Posts: 406

    Originally posted by Alot

    To the OP: No. The word "polish" is thing that's strangling our community. It's simply overused.

    Explain what you mean please. Unlike innovation and unfinshed game or one that seems to have no "polish" is easier to spot. One could argue that its the desire for complete games out of the box thats the problem considering MMOs change over time we perhaps should expect to see these changes. I can say a lack of polish in released titles seems to be a major issue but its only seems to be added to the overwhelming chants for innovation.


    Originally posted by miagisan

    the community is strangling the community

     

    Explain what you mean please. I could see someone saying that we put ourselves in this situation hyping titles long before release only to find that we have put expectations on the developers they never even promised to deliver us. I could see someone saying we have fought over the directions games need to go in so much that the market is confused as  what to provide us. Claiming we want apple recieving sed apples and then overwhelmingly claiming we never asked for apples nor do we like apples.

  • zereelistzereelist Member Posts: 373

    Originally posted by aesperus

    The problem is the genre is already risky enough, and putting out a game that's too 'unfamiliar' tends to severely limit the number of people who will play the game. On top of this, a certain company has been blatantly ripping off of the biggest innovations almost immediately after we hear about them from other games. This is severely squashing the market, which is bad for us consumers, but good for the profits of a certain company.

    This is a good point.  There is innovation but when WoW just takes the idea, polishes it up, then patches it in.  It is then no longer innovative. I suppose you could say Blizzard is strangling the community.

    I think MMO's have evolved immensely.  The problem is all the AAA games are themepark games, made for casual players.   The only sandbox games that come out are bug infested, incomplete, indie games.  The indie developers know what gamers want they just don't have the resources to finish them.

    The genre just needs some good sandbox games to come out, then much of the complaints will stop.

  • mainvein33mainvein33 Member Posts: 406

    Originally posted by zereelist

    Originally posted by aesperus

    The problem is the genre is already risky enough, and putting out a game that's too 'unfamiliar' tends to severely limit the number of people who will play the game. On top of this, a certain company has been blatantly ripping off of the biggest innovations almost immediately after we hear about them from other games. This is severely squashing the market, which is bad for us consumers, but good for the profits of a certain company.

    This is a good point.  There is innovation but when WoW just takes the idea, polishes it up, then patches it in.  It is then no longer innovative. I suppose you could say Blizzard is strangling the community.

    I think MMO's have evolved immensely.  The problem is all the AAA games are themepark games, made for casual players.   The only sandbox games that come out are bug infested, incomplete, indie games.  The indie developers know what gamers want they just don't have the resources to finish them.

    The genre just needs some good sandbox games to come out, then much of the complaints will stop.

    I will request this sincerly please dont target specific companies to place blame it only leads to flaming.

  • zereelistzereelist Member Posts: 373

    Originally posted by mainvein33

    I will request this sincerly please dont target specific companies to place blame it only leads to flaming.

    Request denied.  It is relevant and there is no difference to what he said and what I said.  Flamers are best left ignored anyway.

  • AganazerAganazer Member Posts: 1,319

    Innovation is what you ask for when you want change, but don't have any ideas of your own.

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,985

    Originally posted by Aganazer

    Innovation is what you ask for when you want change, but don't have any ideas of your own.

    This site has a forum called Developers Corner. That's where you discuss any ideas that you may have regarding game development.

    In this forum it's quite acceptable to talk about the industry without introducing any new groundbreaking ideas.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • MalcanisMalcanis Member UncommonPosts: 3,297

    When EVE unironically wins 2010 Innovation Of The Year here for a god damb character creater, then yeah, we're entitled to ask "what innovation".

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Member RarePosts: 3,306

    Originally posted by miagisan

    the community is strangling the community

    This. Never was a truer word spoken about MMOs.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247

    Originally posted by mainvein33

    I will admit I am hesitant to post on this topic as it is near and dear to so many of us here. Not long ago I posted a discussion on what gamers want and the general responses were mixed but this word showed up constantly "innovation". No matter where I go on these boards there is an opinion on Innovation in our community. No matter if you consider yourself hardcore or casual, if you like sandbox or themepark or even fps it seems there are strong emotions tied to innovation and the current state of our community. 

     

    "I want innovation" is often another way of saying "I really don't know what I want, but i want something different."

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357

    Originally posted by mainvein33

    As i have been told many times in my life "if it aint broke then dont fix it." However, if it wasn't broke wouldn't we continue to play games without this issue?

    This mindset doesn't work in the experience industry. We crave for new experiences and it doesn't matter whether something is "broken" or not, it's like eating lasagna for 2 weeks straight. There's nothing wrong with it but after one week it starts to taste like crap anyway.

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,985

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    "I want innovation" is often another way of saying "I really don't know what I want, but i want something different."

    We're not being paid to develop video games. That's in the hands of video game developers. There's nothing wrong with expressing dissatisfication with what is currently being offered.

    Will you be content with another +5 years of the same regurgitated crap?

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • AganazerAganazer Member Posts: 1,319

    Originally posted by Cecropia

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    "I want innovation" is often another way of saying "I really don't know what I want, but i want something different."

    We're not being paid to develop video games. That's in the hands of video game developers. There's nothing wrong with expressing dissatisfication with what is currently being offered.

    Will you be content with another +5 years of the same regurgitated crap?

    The problem is that every game that tries to innovate seems to get kicked in the balls for doing so. For every 100 innovative ideas, 99 of them go unnoticed or unappreciated. Out of the last decade the most innovative games were Tabula Rasa, The Chronicles of Spellborn, and D&D Online. None of them were able to hold a player base.

     

    So now all their fantastic ideas will be passed over. Spellborn's fantastic death penalty system is a long forgotten memory. Nobody bothers with immersive spawning animations like Tabula Rasa did. Complex character development systems (like DDO's) that might allow an idiot to create a gimped character are a big no-no nowadays. Traps in a dungeon might frustrate people that aren't used to looking for them.

     

    I have decided that people not only don't want innovation, they wouldn't recognize it if it were right in front of their faces. Even the people asking for innovation would probably need a neon sign pointing at innovative features before they would see it. Even after that it would be a roll of the dice to see if its deemed acceptable to their fragile sensibilities.

     

    Rift's invasions are innovative, but as a case in point you sure as heck will find more comments saying that Rift has no innovation than you will otherwise.

  • ShojuShoju Member UncommonPosts: 776

    The unwashed masses don't want innovation, they want to be entertained, they want bursts of fun they they can squeeze into their limited play times.  The masses want content that can be 'consumed' quickly to give them a sense or feeling of progression and they want it all in an easy to use (read 'intuitive') form.

    The 'masses' are the ones paying the lion's share of the bills for MMO developers, and until they are calling a change to the way that games are developed I doubt we will see much change in the 'core' design of MMOs over the next 5-10 years.

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