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General: Something Old, Something New
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
In her latest Player Perspectives column, MMORPG.com's Isabelle Parsley revisits the "Uphill! In the snow! Both Ways!" column of two weeks ago and the discussion that, just maybe, today's MMOs are a tad easier than they used to be. Drawing on her extensive experience with MMOs, Isabelle backs up her assertion with personal stories and experiences. See if you agree and then sound off in the comments below.
First off, I’ve played MMOs for over 10 years now; before that I played MUDs and MUSHes and before that I played pen’n’paper games. In one form or another I’ve been a gamer for going on 30 years and no, I didn’t start when I was three (sadly). I’ve played lots and lots of games, and I’ve stuck with half a dozen or so for over a year. Whether I know what I’m talking about is a moot point, however, since this is an opinion column: all I’m doing is presenting my view of certain aspects of these games we all love, though by the griping you wouldn’t always know it. I don’t claim insider knowledge, even though I do know a dev or two, because even they don’t usually agree about game design. Everyone has their personal preferences.
Read more of Isabelle Parsley's Player Perspectives: Something Old, Something New.
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Comments
Interesting read. I mark myself somehwere in the middle. Im not hardcore, but Im not casual either. I like hard instances, but not to the point your beating your brains out because your in a group that has no clue.
I have to say one thing we see constant as games live longer, you do see content and gear trivialized, after all as levels get added that is what happens. Pertaining to the sword you got. However what we are seeing nowadays is just not trivialization we are seeing nerf downs all the way around. Look at lotro for example nerf down to the book so you could complete without a group. Other games as well.
Oh well interesting read.
On has to also ask whats up with this spammer who keeps posting those .us websites I hope you guys can get his site banned.
Ahahah oh god i love the pic, so real for most of them.
"get a life dude !"
"but but... what is... a girlfriend ?"
"jeez!"
Happy new year all
I'm in the same boat as well. I suffered through the gigantic raids in Everquest, as well as enjoyed the small group content in games like EQ,EQ2,and even WoW(and countless others). There is a fine line that is being walked by most current dev teams. They try to appease the different types of players:raiders,groupers,and soloers. I think most do a fair job of it, but sure there is room for improvment.
I do feel there is too much "gateing" in content in most MMOs currently. If someone wants to attempt content, they should be able to. Whether it is group,solo, or raid.
I see nothing wrong with the direction LoTRO is taking, except they are slowly excluding group/raid focused players . The Epic Book quests should not be gated, in any way. They should however have a solo, and group option, for all of the volumes. They have made the first book solo-centric, but in doing so they did remove the option of grouping in them, for greater challenge, and rewards. I don't agree with that. There should be an option, for all play-types. I abhore gating of content,in any way.
Isabelle is right, that the few different types of gamers have huge amounts of animosity towards the others. They insult, they undermine, and even try to downplay/overinflate imbalances. She is right, in what I take from her article. The communtiy has changed, and not for the better. Of this I feel certain.
I justhope developers can listen to all the different groups and create equal content for them all.
I think it's pretty bad that I can name for the most part all those consoles and also which system those games are for by the look of them, but hey I enjoy games! Why shouldn't I? And social life and gaming aren't mutually exclusive either. I know quite a number of us gamers who spend a lot of time playing computer games, and many of us are happily married with several children. (Not me, too young for that yet. I just borrow my friend's children every now and then when they wanna do the bad thing, haha).
Gaming has gotten a lot easier, I recently reconfirmed this fact when I started up Final Fantasy XI Online. Man, everything about that game is slow and complicated. It has been made easier however over the course of time, and is still a fantastic game to play with friends (4 of us started together, and it's been brilliant that we did).
Then when I compare it to jumping onto the Cata free trial, (I'm kinda a maybe on the whole WoW subject, I'll play for a few months, then crave something else, but not 100% against it kinda thing, but that's a whole different kettle of fish) the difference is so widely spread apart you wonder why.
But I don't like to think of it in terms of getting easier cause I don't think that's what anyone who developed these games had in mind. Especially with WoW being such a milestone in MMO gaming, it's all about accessibility. Sure, the game isn't as hard as FFXI, but it's a infinitely easier to pick up and play.
Games are evolving as such, to a level where I don't think many of us old gamers understand as much as we once did...maybe it's a sign that we're getting old. You know how our old folk talk about how much was better in the old days? We're the next generation, and it's our turn.
Now, time to collect my pension!
Interesting read, nice and balanced - and +1 on loving the pics.
You hit the nail on the head about the "hardcore" thinking "their hardcore" is the only kind, the right kind and anyone that disagrees is wrong (and possibly stupid).
I'm far from hardcore myself, but there are times when I catch myself about to lambast someone for their opinion and have to take a step back and take a deep breath. They are only games, after all - we may love them, hate them, play them too much or "not enough", the "right" way or the "wrong way" - but they're still just games.
Here's hoping everyone here finds a game that's just right for them in the new year : )
Agree, great job on the article. I'd like to say the elitist mentality should end, but it never will. People get trolled and down-trodden then see an opportunity to come out on top for once, and take it, only to become the thing they hated. Irony at its finest.
Games were much more fun for me when I was younger and stupider, when I didn't have an understanding of its development, of the marketing, of the hype, etc. Now it's harder to play the game than it is to analyze it, and for this reason I don't blame developers for gaming faux pas as much anymore. For the same reason, I don't take to heart what people say about games, either; at most, their criticism gets me looking for my own answers, but I don't take their word as golden. A game is made hard, people bitch it feels more like a job than a game. Made easy, now you zip through the content and are bored. Too solo, you feel lonely. Group dynamics, you feel left out. Questing, boring. No questing, grindy. So on, and so forth. People aren't content anymore.
Better to enjoy your game, your way then try to understand someone else's opinions about what you're playing and why you're doing it wrong.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Well said. Bravo!!
We are all different players with different likes and dislikes. I tend to be a solo player and don't like doing quests with others. I never know at what time i want to play what games so I can't commint to meeting someone online. I also type a bit slow so I find it hard to kill a monster and carry on a conversation about what I'm killing. If I just type while my character hits, I just end up dying. I like choosing my own direction of play and when i want to play. I don't want to let others down if i'm now not in the mood to play and they are. I also like to complete things myself without help. As I said i'm a solo player. I love when games give an option of either solo or group. D and D online does that. I also like a good story line and a colourful landscape to play in. Again, everyone is different with differnt styles of play and likes and dislikes in an mmo. What I don't like are the ones that have an apinion that only there way of gameing is corrent and that others that don't follow their type of play is not a real players. They just give a bad name for gamers in general and make us look like a bad lot. I've run into the friendly and the not friendly gamers. Just like there is both good and bad in the world there are friendly happy players and there are players with a bad attitude that make gaming not fun for us.
Well Happy New Year all and let' pray this new year bring us some new exciting games to try and get hooked on. Cheers.
i will play until my death.
Good read. What I would not give for an updated AC1.
Happy new year!
Ah that OBSESSION pic. Top left is the Atari 2600 with the wood effect panels. I still have mine somewhere. Great system in its day.
I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.
Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW
I'm pretty sure 95-99% of gamers have no idea what they want in life and in a game. You are right; games of the past were met with a young community. A community that thought just the idea of grouping with other players was a selling feature.
One thing you did miss, if you did miss it (I have mentioned in the past I find classical writing style painful to read. That form of writing style is from the heart and sadly I don't have one). Game design has became streamlined, you have a formula and it's pure math from there. Every time I played EQ2, it had a plastic feel to it. Mob linking so you can't steal kill, level restricted gear, stats drop off and the list goes on. Part of the fun in EQ, for me, was to mentally beat the game in unique ways and the freedom.
Anyway, personally if you like to learn real research regarding how humans are motivated -->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
The three elements game designers need to focus on are:
autonomy
mastery
purpose
the video explains the rest.
Most games now play more like solo or co-op rpg. That is my complaint. By streamlining game design they have done away with layered social interaction. Thus, if players have less need to interact, less interaction becomes the norm.
I have some ideas on how to bring back deeper, more satisfying social interaction within the mmo genre. My ideas are not unique or original. But there is the belief that opinions on forums are irrelevant to the thoughts and concerns of a games player base. As a result we continue to see the same poorly planned, shoddily implemented, uninspired, game over and over, reskinned with some minor addon which is used to justify its creation.
If mmos are only about group content, we already have that in Quake or Team Fortress, or co-op rpgs. Yet mmo developers continue to distill the genre to it most basic parts, in effect setting there sights on their noses instead of shooting for the moon.
Sadly, much of game media seems to share the same elitest, patronizing attitude toward their audience as does the american news media for its viewers, and as a result it is not only journalism that suffers. Many people would like to see the genre revisit the virtual world idea, but those voices are discounted by those that say forum opinion doesn't matter. But if that is indeed the case, then why would any professional writers bother with editorial pieces in such sites as Mmorpg.com or any mmo website or game forum.
So long as our collective gamer voices are trivialized and so long as gaming media purposely or unwittingly denies that voice, we will not see this genre grow and evolve and into something greater than 5 or six years ago.
I'm disappointed by that last pic... there's no Sega Dreamcast.
Very nice article. I agree with you. Many good points.
I am a more casual player now than I once was because of work. I am also older than many gamers (almost 59) but I still love to play and have been for many years now. I played Atari with my girls moving up to Nintendo, Sega and so on till I finally got a computer and started playing Diablo. Went through the waiting of Diablo 2 which EQ took all my gaming friends. Back then making friends in the game lead to RL at times and was awesome. I had many great friends, one of which sent me a copy of EQ ( my dreaded enemy because so many had left to go play it) for my birthday. So I took the leap and she helped me learn the game. I played it for five years. Moving to WoW for another fives years. Now playing Lotro and loving it. I have played many beta test and tried out many other games along the way. Some fair some not. I am not big on PvP so games like that don't appeal to me at all. Good for those who do just not my cup of tea. I solo a good deal due to my limited time but I do like to group and raid when I can.
All that wind being said there are many different types of players and like it has already been said some like something more than another may. I also love to craft but I really like it to be useful as well. For me it is a waste of time to spend hours, days or even months and then what you craft is useless. Gear that is nice and useful should be attainable by the casual as well as the hard core. If the only way you can get the really nice stuff is a raid and you can't invest the time because of RL which is first then it takes away from the game.
There are things I would like to see in a game but I don't know if it would be possible or if it will ever happen. I mean like you complete a quest and you have helped them and yet they are still where you saw them first. Sure they may say something along the lines of "Name" you have saved us" . But they are still there not back where you helped them get to. Would be nice once you completed something if you continue to see the new that you helped complete not the same old thing. /sigh but alas that is a dream I suppose. But wouldn't that be cool?
I also agree that community has detoriated a great deal over the years.
Happy New Year everyone.
Gikku
You make many excellent points. But I doubt that the 733t crowd are ever going to listen to anyone who isn't as "hard core" as they are. (rolls eyes). These are video GAMES for petes sake! They are supposed to be FUN, not a second life or job. While fun is different things to different people(and as Blizzard has demonstrated, there is a LOT of money to be made in the mass audience approach), that doesn't make "hardcore" games fun to more than a niche market.
Having come up through the old school games myself(UO and up) I can tell you point blank that much of what made them difficult was a thicket of poor design decisions(many of the early Dev's didn't know any better at the time), Mix that with a thick set of rose colored glasses, and one has many of the fond memories of games gone by in a nut shell.
As far as communities go, they have always been a cross section of the focus population. As that focus has expanded into the mass market(where the most money is to be made), the nature of the communities naturally shifted as well. Given the dumbing down of the general population by the public "education"(more like indoctrination) system, how could that not be reflected in a mass market games player population?
Finally, I agree that until middleware and related technologies mature to the point that small teams(or eventually even talented individuals) can create these highly complex software app's, we will see more and more of the mass market approach to games. As it stands these things cost millions and millions(of other peoples money) to create. It stands to reason that if they have any business sense, they will be looking for the best ROI they can get(and thats in the mass market).
I might have accepted an apology, but I'm not so sure about this article. Encounters aren't "still" easy. Perhaps I DID just suck at MMORPGs at first, but I played Asheron's Call starting at launch and I clearly remember having to spend lots of money and time just to get to level 10. I'm not talking two days, either, I remember getting to level 10 MUCH later than that. Even after years and years of playing AC1 and having a very high-level character, getting to level 10 in that game took me MUCH longer than any game I've played recently (that is, if I didn't use a buff bot). Plus, think about getting to level 275 in AC1 right now. Start now, use the buff-bot . . . how long? That's right, longer than it would take you to get to max level in all of the other major MMORPGs out there now, combined.
Sure, you make a few good points, we are more savvy (some of us think so at least), we know the traditional ebs and flows and developers are honing their skills and marching down the path of least resistance; not just because it's easy but because they can go further, faster with less up-front difficulty and expense . . . but that's what we are missing! It seems all the devs are walking down the same road to the same place where no one wants to go anymore and when they get there and everyone leaves they're confused. It's a long hard road someone needs to trudge through to develop some originality. Oh well, I'm dreaming, but it used to be concept THEN development, but now it's all mixing together and everyone's taking the easy road, both frightened and lazy.
All the points you made (the generics that we all waved off long before your article was written) aside, the point you seem to be missing is that you've come up with so many reasons why "games are the same and that WE'VE actually changed" that you've completely convinced yourself that it's fact. It simply is not. Don't give up on what you want and what you thought of the past. What I remember wasn't a misinterpreted dream based on my hap-hazard fumblings through a new digital world that devs had yet to truly get their arms around. What I recall was a slew of options, a world of open opportunity, a no one and nothing pulling be by the shirt collar or riding me through all of the games facets like some sort of Disney ride. I don't remember bugs, I remember devs that counted on their players to be interested enough in their game world that they will do all of the questing and exploring on their own. I remember exploring because it HAD to be done. I remember talking to NPCs to show I wanted to know what was going on in the area. I remember spending night after night just trying to figure out what a creature was most weak against so I could finally try to work my way through a dungeon. I recall when MMORPG gamers had to dig in and get their feet wet in order to play, and these weren't features devs neglectfully or unknowingly left out of the game, they were things they didn't even contemplate because it was considered the PLAYER'S responsibility to actually PLAY the game.
What we remember playing and falling in love with aren't merely the faded dreams of jaded pros, they're days of yore lost in a blasphemous sea of "stamped-out" modern MMORPGs. Don't give up hope and don't convince yourself that "it's you", it's not . . . it's "them". Keep the dream alive, not for the sake of argument, for the sake of the gamer you used to love to be back when being a gamer was well and good enough in and of itself.
You see, that's just it. What is fun to the "hardcore" crowd does appear to be a mere niche preference now and truly (and obviously) does not resemble the opinion of the masses. The gaming tables have indeed turned, irrefutable. And though our arguments for a game as "we" want to know it are perhaps futile, we endure. I still disagree with games being difficult because of flaws though; I argue that when games were developed way back when the thought was, "This fits into our world just nicely, write that in but, as always, don't just give it away." There's the silver-platter-crowd who wants to get something for their money and then there's the "I'll get it myself crowd" who merely pays to be dropped off in a fantasy world and enjoys the feeling in virtual-life that comes from earning something with virtual blood sweat and tears. It's not just rewards, my friend, it's how they are gotten. Yeah, again, it's the whole "it's a journey, not a destination" thing for me. If we have everything we ever wanted, what do we dream of? If it is all given to us up front, how well do we treat it? If we get it with just a few bucks a month and a couple minutes of point and click, how deeply could our loyalty possibly lie?
Perhaps it IS just preference, but perhaps there's a bit more to it than that as well. Maybe, just maybe, the line between hard-work and game-depth can be blurred by the right developer. We can only hope, and hope we should!
Ah, community! Old times were really great, just meet others online was great, and then, doing something all together was, more great
I will agree, community right now is splitting in 'n' niches, each one with its own way of thinking about what is 'correct' to do ingame. Splitting so much that, right now, all games are going towards the way of a MMOG that can be played solo. Solo? omg! Right now, day after day, is difficult found someone willing to party. Everyone concerned about 'his' exp and loot so much, that want do everything solo, sharing none with nobody, going to the extent, said by the OP, to down a mob or some content after the levelups needed to be able do it solo anyway.
Parties are nowaday formed only because players are 'forced' do them, to accomplish something that is needed to progress then, and cannot be (or worth of) done later.
It will be interesting see what devs will do, to create game mechanics who let players being more 'interactive' than it is the situation now.
Cheers^^
point on. i hear SO MANY people saying how games have changed and there is nothing good coming around.
when in fact, WE have changed. and the next big truth: the world ,in fact, does NOT revolve around *US*.
growing up. that's real HARDCORE.
i love the bruce lee picture there
So What Now?
No matter what words are used, when I hear "hardcore gamer", I think of people who want to really work at a game to become the best at it so they can play whacka mole with noobs.
When i hear "casual gamer" I think of people who just want something interesing to do and to be as challenging as they want it to be, with competition at a level where you don't have to play all day every day to obtain the skill to compete.
There was one earlier comment by Wraithone that all mmo's should be fun. So in order for a fun game to attract as many people as possible (and thus make some money) it has to have many elements that make it fun for many different types of players ... from hardcore to "Hello Kitty".
Starting at the hardcore end:
Tough competitive PVP and PVE group and individual content (though I think hardcorers tend to want to have others around so they can measure their .....ummm.... hardcoreness)
Fairly chalenging competitive pVP and PVE group and individual activites for the high end "casuals"
Some easy PVP and PVE group and solo content for the truly casual gamers (Those who justwant to have something interesting that will give them some sense of sccomplishment .... even if it is just learning where all the travel hubs are)
And pretty scenery and pets and fun outfits and easy exploration for the "Hello Kitty's)
And then for everyone from the most elite hardvcore to the most casual time waster ... the main ingredient that any successful MMO has to have ... FUN. Neat little puns and surprises. Ironic twists of plot both deep and silly. Silly quests that make us laugh. Characters with some character to them to play. A world filled with variety and discoveries round every corner.
When I started playing MMO's I thought that EvE Online was the only one out there. After about 2.5 years into it I discovered that if I was gonna be anybody (famous or notorious) I was gonna have to play the game 24 hours a day (well as close to it as possible) in order to be there when stuff happened and when the influencial and famous were on. That is when my eye started roving .. looking for something thet would cost me a little less of my life for maybe a little fun. Fortunately there was another MMO out there that has fit me much better.
I have read many comments that people have said they just want an online "real world" ... Well suprise, the real world has folks that live very hardcore ... and those who live "Hello Kitty" ... and just about every othes space in between. So, can't we all just get along.
If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin
I was loving this story until it turned for the worse. You were going great about the fact that the games are not easier or harder, but rather the same formula is being used and hence we gamers are too smart forthe old tricks. I also agreed with the memory of going for epic items had much more meaning. In the old days there were few carrots but they were huge. Devs found out they can entice more people to play and stay in their games if they offered many many small carrots instead. So yes, more people now play the mmo treadmill cause it is more accessable and easier for them to progress.
But this also has a downside. We no longer can have that epic, almost untouchable, reward that actually means something to gameplay. Sure people will say "well if your hardcore some games provide VANITY items for your effortss" but that just isnt good enough. And this is where your article took a turn for the worse.
Just because you paid the same amount of money does that mean you should get everything handed to you? You say in your article you dont want us claiming that you said you want free hand outs but thats what exactly is watering down and makeing these games easier. Everyone is now on the small fast carrot treadmilland thats great because now more people platy MMO's. We need to keep that up, but we also need to bring back that "big carrot feel". I am talking big carrots that mean something. Big carrots like gear that if somebody see's will know that they shouldn't mess with that guy. And this isn;t just about epeen. Back in the EQ glory days I wasn;t one of the hardcore. I didn;t have the best gear. But you know what? It didn't matter. I still ahd fun playing and it actually was pretty cool to see someof the decked out hardcore players and have them give you pointers.
I guess I just don't get this new generation of gamers. What if we did this same thing in sports? I mean would anyone be motivated to win if at the end of the season no championship was played and all teams were given a trophy for 1st place? Did I feel cheated when I paid the same amount(sometimes even more money) then others for football equpiment and camps but didn't make it to the state championships? I paid the same amount as every other player in the state, where is my trophy?
And yes, I know state trophies don;t give magic abilities that makes the best players even better. But we are talking video games and giving actual meaniful awards means game enhancing rewards, not some piece of novelty armor for my wall.
Bottom line: Just becuase you pay the same for a game doesn't mean you should get every thing in the game. You play, you compete, you have fun. Thats was sports, board games, and video games are about. If all carrots are available for everyone for any kind of game play then players will corner themselves into wahtever small facet of that game that is easiest for them and thats not how the world works nor is that any fun for anyone.
That would require the understanding of how humans interact and enjoy social events.
You are right, people have more reasons not to group than to group. The biggest problem with grouping is the What if's.
What if you can't stay glued to the keyboard so grouping would be difficult to do.
What if the player is rude and sucks.
What if your character class needs (i.e.rogue) needs more then one player to join to be effective.
What if you only have a hour to play.
etc etc etc.....
You can design your game around the what if's but it's massive and requires a ton of capital. Designers need to rethink online games, if they want to be successful in the future.
You lost me with ham is better than bacon. How dare you madam!