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DCUO Combat Demystified (aka: why "Oldschool" MMO'ers won't get it)

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  • TardcoreTardcore Member Posts: 2,325

    Originally posted by just1opinion

    OP,

     

    Assuming MMO "old schoolers" and "veterans" won't "get it," seems a little arrogant and presumptuous on your part in my opinion.

     

    First of all.....reading your reasoning behind that statement in yellow/gold.....to me it sounds more like you're talking about WoW players from the specific comments you made.  WoW players are not generally thought to be "old school" MMO'ers or veterans either one.  Secondly, many of the ACTUAL "old school" players dating back to UO or FURTHER, like Meridian, NWN, and MUDs, are open-minded about the genre, have continued playing through many years of changes, and by nature they might be more into exploring changes.  You shouldn't really assume "old schoolers" are all the same, and it's certainly a fallacy to call WoW players "old school." Maybe the terminology you were looking for was "last generation gamers" meaning NOT "new generation gamers."

     

    I realize we're mostly talking semantics here, but I generally find it offensive to be lumped in with "easy mode" gamers and told that's old school.  Old school wasn't particularly "easy mode."  And I think DCUO combat sounds interesting, myself, so....I also agree with the post directly above mine about it being a preference.

    Have to agree with Just1opinon here. I'd also like to add that most of us (apperently in your opinion,) "dumbass" "Oldschool" MMO'ers cut our teeth on everything from stand up arcade to early console, to computer games of all kinds. Far more of those games were twitch, special move combo strategy, gaming and not the MMO standard of mouse, WASD, and hotbar.

     

    So frankly I'm confused why you felt this little insult was in any way necessary or even relevant in your break down of DCUO combat. Also on the subject of the DCUO combat system, I quite liked it, I thought it was the best part of the game. However while it may not be the norm in MMOs it is by no means new or unique considering it has been the staple of numerous games in all the other game venues of the past 25 years.

    image

    "Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "

  • MetuzMetuz Member UncommonPosts: 9

    Guess I'm an "Oldschool", started playing EQ1 for like 11 years ago, I can only say ... I LOVE DCUO. 

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Member UncommonPosts: 3,649

    It is kind of funny.  I mean, it really is kind of funny.  It is not a case of people not getting it - but it is a case that if people wanted to play that kind of game, they would.  My saying that DCUO is just a crappy PC port of a console brawler is not contradicted in the least by what the OP stated.  If I wanted to play a console brawler, I would play one - I would not play a crappy PC port of one... it is basically the only reason I buy consoles, for fighting games.  Aside from my Atari 2600, Intellivision, ColecoVision, and 8bit NES... every console I have bought since has been for a fighting title.  I do not play brawlers on PC.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • mithossmithoss Member UncommonPosts: 219

    So the basic conclusion is that DCUO is not a MMORPG. Its a MMOG with level progression. If there are no Roles theres no Role Playing.

  • NaqajNaqaj Member UncommonPosts: 1,673

    Originally posted by mithoss

    So the basic conclusion is that DCUO is not a MMORPG. Its a MMOG with level progression. If there are no Roles theres no Role Playing.

    You play the role of your superhero, there's your roleplaying. MMORPG fits.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Member UncommonPosts: 3,649

    Originally posted by Naqaj

    Originally posted by mithoss

    So the basic conclusion is that DCUO is not a MMORPG. Its a MMOG with level progression. If there are no Roles theres no Role Playing.

    You play the role of your superhero, there's your roleplaying. MMORPG fits.

    This makes every game a RPG then.  Halo is a FPSRPG.  Starcraft is a RTSRPG.  Madden is a sportsRPG.  Farmville is a farmRPG.  Etc, etc, etc...

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • SorrowSorrow Member Posts: 1,195

    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    Originally posted by Naqaj


    Originally posted by mithoss

    So the basic conclusion is that DCUO is not a MMORPG. Its a MMOG with level progression. If there are no Roles theres no Role Playing.

    You play the role of your superhero, there's your roleplaying. MMORPG fits.

    This makes every game a RPG then.  Halo is a FPSRPG.  Starcraft is a RTSRPG.  Madden is a sportsRPG.  Farmville is a farmRPG.  Etc, etc, etc...

    LOLOLOLOLOL " Farmville is a farmRPG " omg

    image

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Member UncommonPosts: 3,649

    Originally posted by Sorrow

    Originally posted by VirusDancer


    Originally posted by Naqaj


    Originally posted by mithoss

    So the basic conclusion is that DCUO is not a MMORPG. Its a MMOG with level progression. If there are no Roles theres no Role Playing.

    You play the role of your superhero, there's your roleplaying. MMORPG fits.

    This makes every game a RPG then.  Halo is a FPSRPG.  Starcraft is a RTSRPG.  Madden is a sportsRPG.  Farmville is a farmRPG.  Etc, etc, etc...

    LOLOLOLOLOL " Farmville is a farmRPG " omg

    It is kind of funny, because the gf plays Farmerama.  I keep asking her if you can attack your neighbor's farms and take their stuff...she just gives me that look that says to go away.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • DeserttFoxxDeserttFoxx Member UncommonPosts: 2,401

    This thread implies that old school MMOers are retarded. I am an old school MMO player, i understand the combat perfectly fine. My issue is the fact that every duo/alert is broken, and pvp is horribly exploited and hacked, so with both aspects end game being flawed, what is the point of forcing yourself to play?

     

    i ccompleted 300/300 feats, and hten stopped playing, ive yet to see a patch note that tells me i should change my mind.

    Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy

    Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman

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  • viditorumviditorum Member Posts: 60

    Originally posted by Daitengu

    Us "old school" MMOers tend to be "old school gamers" in general. You'll find we've generally played enough fighting games to understand that DCU has the exact same set up.  Don't be surprised when some old school Street Fighter 2, Killer Instinct, or Mortal Kombat players whoop ya OP.

    I couldn't agree more. But also I like the first half of OP's post that does a good job of explaining the system to those who may be interested but are daunted by twitch games.

  • AmanaAmana Moderator UncommonPosts: 3,912

    Please remember to remain on-topic, which isn't other posters nor the merits of the thread. Thanks.

    To give feedback on moderation, contact mikeb@mmorpg.com

  • PK4GoldPK4Gold Member UncommonPosts: 62

    DCUO is a twitch game , and some of us Old School gamers.... just refuse to pay a monthly fee for a game we have previously played before for free.

    As you stated, it makes no difference what class you play /pick . So technically this is not truly an MMORPG,  if you use your logic! ( You said it not me)

    It is just a mmog .missing the RP. I rather play League of Legends tbh.

    DCUO to me is like Street Fighter meets the "Old School " arcade game Royal Rumble  ( you might be too young for that one also)

    Again been there ,done that.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLIVoYtRf04

    Edit: video of royal rumble! =p

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,257

    I decided to go ahead and put together a little compilation of my responses in this thread for those interested on my stance of what "oldschool" MMO'ers choose to get or not to get.  

     

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3977671#3977671

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3977785#3977785

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3980809#3980809

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3983879#3983879

     

    As its been said, and then rehashed by numerous people,  the game isn't for everyone.  Going over the combat system is more just cutting to the chase for those players who feel that MMOs need to stay along more traditional lines.  Crafting.  Housing.  Level and gear progression taking precedence over player skill.  

     

    To summarize,  this was directed at other posts that were becoming common place and redundant at the time,  from players who expected a traditional MMO and disliked DCUO because it strayed from that formula.    These players commonly referred to themselves as "old school" gamers,  and while I would consider myself a gamer of  "old school" proportions as I've been playing games for over 20 years now,  I would never use my "oldschool-ness" as an excuse of why I dislike a game.   Games are entertainment and you either like them, or you don't.    If you are used to more traditional games, and don't like DCUO because it is not your style,  thats fine.   If, however, you say that you are an "oldschool" gamer and don't like it because its not an "MMO" according to your standards  (like saying you are "oldschool" somehow makes you better at defining the genre)  then I suppose the offense can be taken as being intended from my OP.  

     

    Hope that clears up some of misconceptions on my stance here.

     

    (Also, I do remember royal rumble,  and I enjoyed the game thoroughly on the snes image   I was a wrestling fan back then though.)



  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004

    Originally posted by vboydjr

    Originally posted by TribeofOne

    the mouse click spam combo combat will turn a lot of people off.

     

     click, dbl click, hold click, tapx3+dbl click+hold  etc.. its crap

     Ok so why is it crap?

    you don't get it image

     

    console players will no doubt love the combat, its fiddly and you get to press lots of buttons.. for PC players.. that was.. like so last decade.. if there arent macro's already released to cover that kind of thing i'd be very surprised. Button mashing games have their place, and its possible that consoles will continue to thrive on them, but for me, its just not fun. Its not the main reason i won't be buying the game, but it is a significant one...

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,257

    Originally posted by Phry

    Originally posted by vboydjr


    Originally posted by TribeofOne

    the mouse click spam combo combat will turn a lot of people off.

     

     click, dbl click, hold click, tapx3+dbl click+hold  etc.. its crap

     Ok so why is it crap?

    you don't get it image

     

    console players will no doubt love the combat, its fiddly and you get to press lots of buttons.. for PC players.. that was.. like so last decade.. if there arent macro's already released to cover that kind of thing i'd be very surprised. Button mashing games have their place, and its possible that consoles will continue to thrive on them, but for me, its just not fun. Its not the main reason i won't be buying the game, but it is a significant one...

     

    Maybe next year they'll release a game where you don't have to press any buttons!  image

    Or... maybe those are called movies...  anyways,  this system isn't going to be fun for everyone,  but it doesn't mean its "crap".   

     

    Macros have been created, even in beta.  The macros in beta were usable,  but essentially you didn't want to macro your powers because of the way the system is.  If you commit to a combo you could essentially  cause yourself more harm than good.  Its being able to be fluid in your on-the-fly decisions.  Should you finish the combo,  or stop short and block break?  Should you roll here, or leap attack?  You have to make these decisions on the spot.   

     

    Now there is an exploit that allows macroing by use of frame cancelling which will be patched in the February patch.  Currently the bug allows for players to macro a set of combos that queues up a number of attacks with only a single combat animation.  So while it looks like you're only done 1 attack,  you could actually be doing 10,  and it really imbalances the PvP.   I am patiently awaiting a fix before I log back in.



  • mithossmithoss Member UncommonPosts: 219

    The core thing is: the ppl you reffer to as 'Oldschool' MMO'ers are simply put PC-Gamers. DCUO is first and foremost a console game, from controls to user interface it screams Online 3rd person console beatem'up/shootem'up. Since consoles exist pc games are basically mouse+keyboard, the rest that needs controllers stays on consoles. Again, DCUO has good combat( on consoles), DCUO is a good mmog (on consoles) but DCUO is a mediocre PC-Game because of the design choices specifically for consoles.

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Member UncommonPosts: 3,649

    Originally posted by mithoss

    The core thing is: the ppl you reffer to as 'Oldschool' MMO'ers are simply put PC-Gamers. DCUO is first and foremost a console game, from controls to user interface it screams Online 3rd person console beatem'up/shootem'up. Since consoles exist pc games are basically mouse+keyboard, the rest that needs controllers stays on consoles. Again, DCUO has good combat( on consoles), DCUO is a good mmog (on consoles) but DCUO is a mediocre PC-Game because of the design choices specifically for consoles.

    This is definitely a very succinct and polite way to put it.  Kudos.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,758

    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    Originally posted by mithoss

    The core thing is: the ppl you reffer to as 'Oldschool' MMO'ers are simply put PC-Gamers. DCUO is first and foremost a console game, from controls to user interface it screams Online 3rd person console beatem'up/shootem'up. Since consoles exist pc games are basically mouse+keyboard, the rest that needs controllers stays on consoles. Again, DCUO has good combat( on consoles), DCUO is a good mmog (on consoles) but DCUO is a mediocre PC-Game because of the design choices specifically for consoles.

    This is definitely a very succinct and polite way to put it.  Kudos.

    The problem with saying the game "needs a controller" is I believe that mouse+keyboard players actually have an advantage over people using a controller.  It's difficult to turn the camera and hit the attack/combo buttons at the same time using the same thumb.  It's easy to do on the mouse.

    The only way it would suck is if you're used to moving and turning with wasd and doing all abilities by clicking on them.  If they change the UI so you can do that on the computer, you will not survive in PVP because you will be too slow.  Simply turning around will take you 5x as long as a mouse-turner.  That goes for all MMOs in PVP though.

    As for the clicking required, I find the cobat to be about 10x more involving than regular MMO combat.  Every weapon has about 10 combos that all require different clicking and moving combinations.  Much more involving than "Tab select a target and auto attack while clicking boxes on the screen".

  • DragimDragim Member UncommonPosts: 867

    I'm old school and I get it.  I  get it very well, probably one of the best healers I know in game.

    Though I decided to not play so much at the moment due to dwindling population on my server and people exploiting game mechanics.

    But hey, to each their own, if you enjoy it, then keep on enjoying it.

    If you don't, then well, don't play.

    Easy as that. (I would say easy as Pie, but pie can be pretty complex sometimes)

    I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.

  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,758

    Originally posted by Phry

    Originally posted by vboydjr


    Originally posted by TribeofOne

    the mouse click spam combo combat will turn a lot of people off.

     

     click, dbl click, hold click, tapx3+dbl click+hold  etc.. its crap

     Ok so why is it crap?

    you don't get it image

     

    console players will no doubt love the combat, its fiddly and you get to press lots of buttons.. for PC players.. that was.. like so last decade.. if there arent macro's already released to cover that kind of thing i'd be very surprised. Button mashing games have their place, and its possible that consoles will continue to thrive on them, but for me, its just not fun. Its not the main reason i won't be buying the game, but it is a significant one...

    A typical "rotation" for me in DCUO at level 15 on my new toon:

    3, 1, 2, hold rmouse+forward, hold rmouse+backward, hold rmouse, dodge or block, click rmouse, holdrmouse+backward

    Depending on the situation, I may need to throw in lclick combos, pick up objects and throw them/break them, break out of stuns, and use other abilities.  Combos used are based on split-second responses to situations.  I can push enemies out of range or pull them in, as well as get in and out of close-range by dodging.

    I change targets by facing them rather than auto-turning with tab and you're almost always fighting multiple targets.

    My typical "rotation" for me in every other MMO (If I played as a keyboard turner which everyone seems to want to do:

    Tab target, click a box, click a box, grab a handful of cheetos, click a box, click a box, take a sip of soda.  Zero movement necessary, no blocking, dodging or breaking out of stuns, no interaction with the environment, no anything except "clicking boxes on the screen".

    This "rotation" never changes regardless of what enemy I'm fighting.  Not only that but, but the boxes I click and the order I click them almost never changes.

    Which of these seems more dynamic?  And if it's so last decade, what MMO a decade ago used a dynamic action combat system?

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Member UncommonPosts: 3,649

    I would hate to play that MMO you describe...but thankfully in all the games I have played since '97, I have never come across one like that.  "Rotations" = "Combos" which is more akin to console/arcade brawlers, which DCUO is.

    I use a target specific situational priority system reliant upon both proactive and reactive variables...cannot get more dynamic than that.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,758

    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    I would hate to play that MMO you describe...but thankfully in all the games I have played since '97, I have never come across one like that.  "Rotations" = "Combos" which is more akin to console/arcade brawlers, which DCUO is.

    I use a target specific situational priority system reliant upon both proactive and reactive variables...cannot get more dynamic than that.

    What exactly are the proactive and reactive variables in say solo PVE combat in regular MMOs.

    Last I played them it was "Click boxes in an order that does the most dps, heal boxes when necessary."  "Repeat rotation for every single mob"

    Not exactly proactive nor reactive if you ask me, and all the "situations" are basically the same in regular MMOs.

    In regular MMOs you can't block or dodge, nor you or the mobs can throw or smash things, range abilites in close range do the same thing as in long range, you can't push or pull enemies and they can't do it to you.  All those things fall under the category of "proactive and reactive in specific situations", and they're all lacking in other MMOs.

  • NaqajNaqaj Member UncommonPosts: 1,673

    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    I use a target specific situational priority system reliant upon both proactive and reactive variables...cannot get more dynamic than that.

    That sentence could mean a very complex and dynamic combat design, or be fancy talk for "I hit the keyboard with my face".

     

    Please be specific, avoid bullshit bingo buzzwords.

  • BOYVIRGO666BOYVIRGO666 Member Posts: 158

    Originally posted by mithoss

    you make it sound like duco's combat has depth to it :D its a button masher nothing more.

    yeah im sure i won me those pvp rounds with button mashing, not tactics or target priority. {Mod edit}

    genius inside insanity

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