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DCUO Combat Demystified (aka: why "Oldschool" MMO'ers won't get it)

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  • SpellshaperSpellshaper Member UncommonPosts: 419

    Great topic, thank you OP and I hope you have tested attacks and their anti-attacks so it really works ;)

     

    I have a question, how you can recognize what attack your opponent is using? I really have hard time recognize type of attack, is there any help for this?

    _____________________________
    Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

  • Dark_SumerianDark_Sumerian Member Posts: 14

    Originally posted by CazCore

    Originally posted by Dark_Sumerian

    I find it funny that some people think that "twitch gameplay" will somehow even out the gaming experience by introducing skill over powerleveling.  Twitch gameplay is just as much of a time sink as the "old school" method of levling up.  You need to practice over and over to get good, higher level players will still have the advantage over those of lower levels.  The only difference is the more chaotic gameplay in these types of MMOs, it's like real time strategy VS turn based strategy.

     

    i find it funny you can't see the significance in the the difference.

    one of the great things about MMOs is persistence.  what's more persistant than YOURSELF and YOUR OWN skills?

    sure twitch is a time sink.  but this point is almost irrelevant.

    most people here have probably already "levelled up" in it quite a bit by this point in our lives.  if if you don't play modern day FPS/RTS or whatever, don't forget PacMan/Donkey-Kong and virtually all the ancient classics were twitch games.

     

    and....

    going from 0-100 twitch skill (if you could quantify it like that) happens only ONCE in your entire lifetime.  

    is persistent across ALL games that you play.  

    it can never be reset, erased or invalidated by:

    (1) changes to a game

    (2) a game being cancelled, company going out of business

    (3) you getting sick of a game and quitting

    (4) the game dying of old age

     

    and for people like me that refuse to grind games, i gained all my real life skills via actually having fun in games.  usually in short bursts.  not in life draining sessions of mind numbing numbers and dice grinding in every game i played so that i could see what all experiences the designers put into their games.

     

     

    You are saying that twitch skill transcends all games?  Are you joking?  Unless you're playing a clone, switching from one game to another always requires a learning curve.  If what you're looking for is a streamlined gameplay experience for all of your games, then you really don't demand much from your games now do you.  You just completely destroyed any appeal of twitch focused MMOs with what you just said, that developing your skill in one game somehow prepares you fully for the next, how uneventful.

     Luckily you are incorrect, as every good game and MMO has it's own feel and style regardless as to whether it is "traditional" or "twitch".  There is no advantage of one over the other as I see it, which was the point of my post, there is only preference.  All you had to do was write "I prefer one style over the other" and left out the nonsense about "standing still and mashing hotbar keys as they light up whack-a-mole gameplay where real life skills are extremely minimized." 

    A class focused traditional MMO requires plenty of skill, everyone has a role, has to manage their role and think as one while in a group.  If your healer makes ONE mistake it could cause a devastating chain reaction, if your caster is premature with his mana draining nuke, you all have to change up your strategy, if your tank thinks his job is to just sit there and soak up damage, you all might as well run now.  There is plenty of skill and strategy in that type of gameplay, one is not superior to the other just because you find it more fun and one does not offer more immediate satisfaction over the other because all good games have their own learning curves and intricacies which require their own timesinks of practice, practice practice.  Just because someone is good ay Unreal Tournament does not mean they will immediately pick up or ever be any good at Counterstrike.

    As for grinding, do you think a twitch game is immune to grinding?  Grinding is a state of mind, some people play that way no matter what. 

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,264

    @ Terranah

     

    I responded to most of that in this post here: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3977671#3977671  I hope that clears up some of the condescension.   Maybe its just me, but I don't believe a true gamer would write off something just because its different,  nor would they ridicule it.  This game isn't for everyone,  but I don't think its abilities to entertain are based on age, race, religion etcetera. 

     

     

    @ Spellshaper

     

    Recognizing abilities is dependent on knowing the opposing players SKILL set.  For example,  if you were fighting against a 2H player,  you know that they have a couple of really strong combos and a ranged block breaker with a modest charge.  You'd be able to tell that if they are within melee ranged and hitting you repeatedly they are working on a combo.  If you see them hold their weapon to the side like they are charging their block breaker,  you have to act fast.   

     

    Most weapon skills are the same, the only ones you'd have a tough time with would be some of the ranged skills like Hand blasters or Rifle, which have a number of combos that are block breakers.   You can tell these combos simply by how they are attacking.  If they are planning a ranged block breaker combo, they'll be using ranged attacks (even if they are within melee range).  If they are hitting you physically they are getting ready for their melee combos.    In the ranged instance its best to plan a leap attack while in the melee instance you'd be better off blocking.

     

    It really just takes experience to be able to see what they are using and change your tactics accordingly.  I've been playing for a few months so I've got a pretty strong handle on it,  so it may take you a little bit.  It might also help to try out a few of the different weapons so you know how their combos look and what they do.

     

     

     



  • ravtecravtec Member Posts: 214

    All games are easy to learn but hard to master, even ur regular wack the mole mmo.

  • comerbcomerb Member UncommonPosts: 944

    Originally posted by Gruug

    Originally posted by devilution


    Originally posted by Gruug

    There is no skill in this game. You have 4 options while fighting. It is more akin to a fighting console game (which are sooooo simple). This game is more like "Hello Kitty" then a good MMO.

    Oh, and by the way, "old school" built the world around you INCLUDING the PC and the consoles and the games they ride on.

     

    Fighting games simple ?

    Guess you never played any Virtua Fighter/KoF/SC2 etc... vs human opponents (skillful ones)

     Probably played more hours on those then you did. Button combos do NOT make a game more complicated. They just give you more buttons to mash.

    You have absolutely no idea what your talking about, and are generally just making yourself look like a colossal fool.  I just wanted to point that out.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,900

    Originally posted by comerb

    Originally posted by Gruug

    Originally posted by devilution

    Originally posted by Gruug

    There is no skill in this game. You have 4 options while fighting. It is more akin to a fighting console game (which are sooooo simple). This game is more like "Hello Kitty" then a good MMO.

    Oh, and by the way, "old school" built the world around you INCLUDING the PC and the consoles and the games they ride on.

     

    Fighting games simple ?

    Guess you never played any Virtua Fighter/KoF/SC2 etc... vs human opponents (skillful ones)

     Probably played more hours on those then you did. Button combos do NOT make a game more complicated. They just give you more buttons to mash.

    You have absolutely no idea what your talking about, and are generally just making yourself look like a colossal fool.  I just wanted to point that out.

     hehe agreed Comerb, but let the guy speak... I have rope enough to go around.

  • levin70levin70 Member Posts: 87

    So if i tell you that my parents purchased an atari pong console in 1975 for me, does that satisfactorily present my "old school" bonifides?

     

    Seriously, OP.  Your title and post was meant as a flamefest.  Was that really necessary to insult those of us "old schoolers"?

     

    The game will play well and will be enjoyable for many, especially those who grew up on modern consoles and not playing Zork on a 1979 Apple IIe (again, with the "old school" bonifides).  Some, like me maybe not so much.  That doesn't mean it doesn't nor shouldn't have a place along side all of the "old school" mmo's

     

    Play it, enjoy or, or not.  But kill the comments meant only to flame.

     

    Regards

  • devilutiondevilution Member UncommonPosts: 13

    He didn't say old skool players, he said old skool mmo players =)

    But i get your point and I have to agree with you.

     

    I think the OP meant, "mainstream" MMO gamers, who like to point and click stuff...

  • MeromorphMeromorph Member Posts: 75

    Agreed, old school MMOs cannot fathom why anyone would pay a $15/month subscription fee and enter a locked-in-DRM relationship with SOE to play a console style action-brawler with RPG elements that has 40 or so hours of content. 

    There is no way this game will be subscription based in the long-term; they just know that some IP fans will be willingly to pay for collectors editions and monthly fees, but once that source of revenue has been exhausted, they will switch to buy to play + cash shop after 6 months.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,264

    Originally posted by levin70

    So if i tell you that my parents purchased an atari pong console in 1975 for me, does that satisfactorily present my "old school" bonifides?

     

    Seriously, OP.  Your title and post was meant as a flamefest.  Was that really necessary to insult those of us "old schoolers"?

     

    The game will play well and will be enjoyable for many, especially those who grew up on modern consoles and not playing Zork on a 1979 Apple IIe (again, with the "old school" bonifides).  Some, like me maybe not so much.  That doesn't mean it doesn't nor shouldn't have a place along side all of the "old school" mmo's

     

    Play it, enjoy or, or not.  But kill the comments meant only to flame.

     

    Regards

     

    I know its not always easy after threads get so many posts, but in my responses I clarified what I meant pretty thoroughly.  I will not change the OP.  "Oldschool" MMOers is pretty disingenuous, and taking offense to it is only warranted if you'd believe yourself to be a self proclaimed "Oldschool" MMO player.   

     

    Like or hate the game for what it is,  not for what you expect it to be because of the MMO prefix.  If by being an "oldschool" MMO player people mean that games must always follow the "golden" path of MMOs and have the same combat, the crafting, the same classes and community elements for them to truly be worth playing in the genre -- then again the "Oldschool"  MMOers won't get the combat here amongst many of the other elements DCUO offers.

     

    Call it an insult or flamebait if you want,  but I find it more insulting that so many threads crop up with posters degrading the system and the type of players that may find it enjoyable because the system isn't what they're used to.

     



  • LaterisLateris Member UncommonPosts: 1,765

    I like the combat in the game a lot. I love the artwork. As a fan of the UT III UDK tools I am really happy to see what this game has done with this engine. My first MMO was Earth and Beyond. Before that it was all FPS. It is nice to see that SOE finally got their NGE down with combat. Well back to my old world of type writers. 

  • kingotnwkingotnw Member UncommonPosts: 103

    For the life of me I don't understand why people are saying people won't sub to this game. As I said before, I am definatley an "old-school" MMORPGer, and this game is great IMO. Currently, being in both the beta for this and the beta for Rift, DCUO is hands down, without question the better game. I was expecting to like Rift and its just more of the same... I was expecting to NOT like DCUO and I love it. Funny how that works.

  • TribeofOneTribeofOne Member UncommonPosts: 1,006

    the mouse click spam combo combat will turn a lot of people off.

     

     click, dbl click, hold click, tapx3+dbl click+hold  etc.. its crap

  • ShadowStyleBShadowStyleB Member UncommonPosts: 310

    Originally posted by TribeofOne

    the mouse click spam combo combat will turn a lot of people off.

     

     click, dbl click, hold click, tapx3+dbl click+hold  etc.. its crap

     Ok so why is it crap?

    "You think this "A" stands for France?" Captain America

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,900

    Originally posted by Meromorph

    Agreed, old school MMOs cannot fathom why anyone would pay a $15/month subscription fee and enter a locked-in-DRM relationship with SOE to play a console style action-brawler with RPG elements that has 40 or so hours of content. 

    There is no way this game will be subscription based in the long-term; they just know that some IP fans will be willingly to pay for collectors editions and monthly fees, but once that source of revenue has been exhausted, they will switch to buy to play + cash shop after 6 months.

     

     

    This is true. If anyone thinks that SOE havent got a cash shop plan set up for this game right from the go, then they don't know SOE.

    If you love being double dipped, triple if you include the box, vote for SOE.

  • 4getting20094getting2009 Member UncommonPosts: 178

    From the OP's description the combat doesn't sound all that different from CO's. For me, that is a welcome idea. I like the reactive combat. I am still hoping I will find an action/twitch style MMO  that will survive the initial release rush. I haven't seen it yet.

  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Member UncommonPosts: 3,713

    I can understand both sides to the argument. I haven't played the game myself yet, but am excited to try it on my ps3. I enjoy both console games and MMOs. I have played dozens of "classic" mmos and currently play WoW, which i will likely continue to play as I understand there is a difference in style to these games.

     

    I think SoE understands this game will not be for everyone. But props to them for not trying to make it for everyone. I think CoX tried to appeal to action oriented gamers but didnt go the full distance with their concepts and ultimately the combat felt like it wanted to be something it wasn't. That is just my opinion though.

     

    I applaud SoE for having the balls to just go full out with DCUO and make it a full action real time combat system and not pull any punches it make it more traditional. WIll it pay off? We will see. But I think at the least it will certain have a niche market. I do think some kind of free to play model after purchase might have been preferable to this style of game though.

    image
  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Member UncommonPosts: 3,713

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by Meromorph

    Agreed, old school MMOs cannot fathom why anyone would pay a $15/month subscription fee and enter a locked-in-DRM relationship with SOE to play a console style action-brawler with RPG elements that has 40 or so hours of content. 

    There is no way this game will be subscription based in the long-term; they just know that some IP fans will be willingly to pay for collectors editions and monthly fees, but once that source of revenue has been exhausted, they will switch to buy to play + cash shop after 6 months.

     

     

    This is true. If anyone thinks that SOE havent got a cash shop plan set up for this game right from the go, then they don't know SOE.

    If you love being double dipped, triple if you include the box, vote for SOE.

     God I get so sick of you people. Get over it already, you don't like SOE then move on. SW:TOR is coming out, SWG is in the past. Just move on!

    image
  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Member UncommonPosts: 3,713

    One last comment to make though, is "classic" mmos hardly had more involved combat systems. Lets all remember the EverQuest style:

    Warrior= auto attack, kick, bash wait

    Caster= click cast, wait...wait...wait, click again, wait wait, fights over rest for 20 minutes

    Its all button mashing, some just make you mash buttons more often which for me can make you feel more engaged.

    image
  • youngkgyoungkg Member UncommonPosts: 357

    Cool post, Shame into what it did though lol...

     

    I dig the fact that Levels dont really give people 2 much of a cushion pvp wise but you left out the Gear aspect and how it effects PvP...

     

    P.S. im an old school gamer....started with Asherons Call and atm in Darkfall waiting on DCU.....image

  • Keeper2000Keeper2000 Member UncommonPosts: 637

    So the OP is mainly saying that oldschool will not understand the concept of watching an event and pressing a combination of keys to produce a respon in time.

    Interesting. The OP is definetely not oldschool.

    Lets be clear... it is not important if you were a MUD player, or a sandbox player (UO), or a themepark player (EQ), or whatever. Most all combat in MMORPGs were and are still done by how the OP described. And actually some old MMOs were more complicated than what the OP is describing.

    Even games like AoC, which was supposed to have a revolutionary combat system, ends up being "event X happen, execute action Y".

    Lets all recall... under specific circuntances (like who is the target, what is he doing, what is the rest of the enemies/mobs doing, etc, etc, etc), we always had to do ceratin stuff. Like... stun, mez, interrupt, dot, hot, heal, snare, hit, combo (yes, MMOs do have combos), kite, guard, debuff, buff, rez, run like hell, charge, detaunt, taunt, take positional, stealth, purge, etc, etc, etc.

    Whoever react faster, has more chances to win. Just as example... all the DAoC players knows that who mez the enemy team first has a huge advantage... and that applies for anything done in any MMO.

    If anything this OP is telling me... is that DC combat seems very... simplistic.

  • ScribZScribZ Member Posts: 424

    I dunno if I would call it simpler, its a different mindset the OP has than what I refer to as reality. The game mechanics in this game appear to be more hand-eye than reasoning. If thats what he means by old school it came accross more as an age discrimination / hatred issue than that. Most current MMO games, and the older ones, the victory was met thru a series of logical and well planned moves based off the situation as it unfolds. A form of reasoning, logical thinking, and fast paced deductive planning was involved if you wanted to best your opponent (AI or player). In more 'twitch' based gameplay scenerios, which this one falls under, it is more important to be faster in your response physically than anything else. Knowning the basic moves and counter moves and employing them in the most rapid response to a given visual queue is all thats required to become victorious. Its not that the other type of gamer which he tries to label as old school dont 'get it' its just that most of us (yes I'm in that category) would refer to it as dumbed down. Any fool can run a marathon if he has legs to which run upon, but it takes a strategy to win one, and thats done with the mind.

    As to the old school comment by the OP, well if he has that much of an issue with people older than he is I recommend he get some help there. Old school gamer means people who have played more than one type of game, have seen the genre develop over time first hand, not just read about it and think they know what it was like. You, as a younger gamer, are only able to play your NEW games because people like us were around from the beginning to see and participate in it from the start. Without the old school, your games wouldnt' be where they are today. When we were younger we played the ones that first came out, now we are designing them, the ones you are staring out on. In 20 years maybe you will have learned enough to create the next generation of games. And oh yeah, when that time comes, and your taking a break at work, you too can read a post by some young fool about how you 'won't get it' because your too damn old. When that day comes I hope you remember where you are today, and that you were that young fool.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,264

    Originally posted by ScribZ

     

    As to the old school comment by the OP, well if he has that much of an issue with people older than he is I recommend he get some help there. Old school gamer means people who have played more than one type of game, have seen the genre develop over time first hand, not just read about it and think they know what it was like. You, as a younger gamer, are only able to play your NEW games because people like us were around from the beginning to see and participate in it from the start. Without the old school, your games wouldnt' be where they are today. When we were younger we played the ones that first came out, now we are designing them, the ones you are staring out on. In 20 years maybe you will have learned enough to create the next generation of games. And oh yeah, when that time comes, and your taking a break at work, you too can read a post by some young fool about how you 'won't get it' because your too damn old. When that day comes I hope you remember where you are today, and that you were that young fool.

     

    I must be a "young fool" then.  Even though, to get any understanding of my stance or anything about me in particular, it would take you reading more then my initial post.    For one I think you misread the title if you think that "Oldschool MMOers"  are "Oldschool" Gamers, or the idea behind why "Oldschool" is in quotes.  But as I'm seemingly age discriminate, I'll leave you to your impressions.



  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,575

    TLDR version.  This game is designed around twitch gaming, which is not typically the style associated with MMORPG's which is what most "oldschool" players have traditionally enjoyed.

    A niche game for a niche market, those looking to reward twitch gaming skills instead of the usual items such as time played, strategic thinking, planning and the like.  To the quick goes the victory.

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  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,264

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    TLDR version.  This game is designed around twitch gaming, which is not typically the style associated with MMORPG's which is what most "oldschool" players have traditionally enjoyed.

    A niche game for a niche market, those looking to reward twitch gaming skills instead of the usual items such as time played, strategic thinking, planning and the like.  To the quick goes the victory.

    Pretty much so,  thanks Kyleran. image



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