just having the combat be something other then a spreadsheet in space would have been a huge improvement, weapons with limited fireing arcs, ships beneftitting from carrying cannons lasers and missiles/torps, the ability to target shield emmitters or engines or weapon mounts to disable them during the fight to gain the upper hand, ect ect, something real time space combatty, rather then open up the spreadsheet wait 20 mins and see whos tank broke first during auto attack fest 09.
You are joking right? Combine Turret disabling, Target jaming, Taget dampning, Energy sucking, FOF missles, Target lock speeds, Transervsal velocity, speed and Engine jaming... LoL eve combat is mush more then just waiting for your targets Tank to break, SPider tanking, Passive tanking, active tanking or buffer tanking... EvE is a strategic game lol and you are either Trolling or just dumb and havent played EvE past a few NPC missions.......
just having the combat be something other then a spreadsheet in space would have been a huge improvement, weapons with limited fireing arcs, ships beneftitting from carrying cannons lasers and missiles/torps, the ability to target shield emmitters or engines or weapon mounts to disable them during the fight to gain the upper hand, ect ect, something real time space combatty, rather then open up the spreadsheet wait 20 mins and see whos tank broke first during auto attack fest 09.
You are joking right? Combine Turret disabling, Target jaming, Taget dampning, Energy sucking, FOF missles, Target lock speeds, Transervsal velocity, speed and Engine jaming... LoL eve combat is mush more then just waiting for your targets Tank to break, SPider tanking, Passive tanking, active tanking or buffer tanking... EvE is a strategic game lol and you are either Trolling or just dumb and havent played EvE past a few NPC missions.......
Funny thing is, all the things they mention are technically in the game, via the tools you just mentioned. You just have to learn the mechanics of the game to understand what those tools do.
There seems to be a rash of people in these forums that claim something is too simplistic because they can't be bothered to look under the hood and see what's what.
"Poker is simplistic, just like War. They both only have 52 cards..."
Whichever way you spin it, it has pretty passive combat. All "skills" work on activate/deactivate basis and the player controls his/her ship indirectly. What neorandom clearly was wishing for is a more active combat. Consider this: Eve's combat videos are nearly always shown in double speed.
The game is far simpler than it first appears if one chooses to see it. Many things boil into simple hit chance, damage penetration/reduction, diceroll if the target is jammed or not, "mana burn/drain", regeneration rates and "mana/HP pools" etc.
I too would want more active combat in a spaceship game. Most of the time I was made busy only by that the server performance is less than ideal and the UI is bad.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Whichever way you spin it, it has pretty passive combat. All "skills" work on activate/deactivate basis and the player controls his/her ship indirectly. What neorandom clearly was wishing for is a more active combat. Consider this: Eve's combat videos are nearly always shown in double speed.
The game is far simpler than it first appears if one chooses to see it. Many things boil into simple hit chance, damage penetration/reduction, diceroll if the target is jammed or not, "mana burn/drain", regeneration rates and "mana/HP pools" etc.
I too would want more active combat in a spaceship game. Most of the time I was made busy only by that the server performance is less than ideal and the UI is bad.
Aside from fps targetting games (and even them to an extent) all mmo's work on a activate/deactivate basis. Running around like a nub or to get LOS does not greatly help you in the vast majority of standard mmos due to autolock.
Again aside from fps aiming games most other mmo's have hit rolls and the like, again in EVE there is far more control over variables like rate of fire, damage type vs enemy, tank type, movement speed and the like then there is in most autolock mmo's.
If people are comparing it to a twitch mmo like DF then yes, the combat activity is far slower and seemingly less player driven, but compared to the majority of generic autolock mmo's, the action feels on a par given you are flying about in what can be fucking huge spaceships.
I can understand the want to zip about in interceptors and the like but in larger ships with supposed large scale weapon systems and the like, really? Manually moving a large ship at slow speeds and trying to mouse aim multiple weapons at multiple targets at once sounds fun...
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
just having the combat be something other then a spreadsheet in space would have been a huge improvement, weapons with limited fireing arcs, ships beneftitting from carrying cannons lasers and missiles/torps, the ability to target shield emmitters or engines or weapon mounts to disable them during the fight to gain the upper hand, ect ect, something real time space combatty, rather then open up the spreadsheet wait 20 mins and see whos tank broke first during auto attack fest 09.
You are joking right? Combine Turret disabling, Target jaming, Taget dampning, Energy sucking, FOF missles, Target lock speeds, Transervsal velocity, speed and Engine jaming... LoL eve combat is mush more then just waiting for your targets Tank to break, SPider tanking, Passive tanking, active tanking or buffer tanking... EvE is a strategic game lol and you are either Trolling or just dumb and havent played EvE past a few NPC missions.......
Funny thing is, all the things they mention are technically in the game, via the tools you just mentioned. You just have to learn the mechanics of the game to understand what those tools do.
There seems to be a rash of people in these forums that claim something is too simplistic because they can't be bothered to look under the hood and see what's what.
"Poker is simplistic, just like War. They both only have 52 cards..."
All this has nothing to do with combat. All this is setup pre-combat. If i set up a giant passive tank for that 4 year old girl or an 8 year old they passive tank as well as any of you. They can passive tank for hours just as well as any of you.
Active is not hard (when your getting hit push those 4 buttons) and they tank as well as any of you. Smae with jamming and everythign else. The ability to do many things does not equal depth of game, it lends itself to this.
Thats good, but at the end of the game actually playing (other than setting-up) takes little to no skill for almost every way to make money.
Training skills takes even less skill.
And oddly enough, i posted before this thread on how basiclly most fleet action in eve is simply flying around. Peopel don't pvp when out numbered, so they run and get more then the other side runs. This happens hundreds of times every day in eve many many more times than actualk fleet battles occur. Most pvp is just ganking.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
To add even more perspective, even WoW world PvP is more hardcore.
You run into a town? Guy gets some friends, tanks the guards and kills you anyways. There is no get out of jail free card when you are out and about in the world. No stargate to freedom.
I dunno. Like I said, maybe I'm just not seeing it.
Remember that time you lost $10,000 playing WoW? Me neither.
Remember when you lost $10,000 playing eve? Me neither.
Do I really need to explain the difference between that and getting your player killed in WoW and losing nothing?
And you do know before he lost that ship he made the isk to cover that loss twice over, so not really a big loss for him.
Remeber that time in WoW you had a PVP death that stripped away 33% of your armor and bank savings... me neither.
I don't play Eve, I find it dreadfully boring, but any PVP game with full loot rules is going to be more hardcore than WoW or any other game where the only consequence of death is maybe a 3 minute run, and a lowering in some ranking.
How can it be hardcore when the common consensus among EvE players is ships mean nothing and player skills is where it's at. Besides there are umpteen guides available for players to avoid such a loss in the first place.
ROFL, you just lost any credibility when it comes to Eve bro. Show me the proof hahaha, common concensus my ass, your completely clueless. You have no idea what hard core is, and you never will apparently.
So basically you're saying that ships mean everything and player skills mean nothing? Wow...what a way to sh-t in your own backyard. Maybe you should read a post a couple of times before you reply. Or maybe I should clarify things for you:
There is no such thing as hardcore PvPing and PvPing, it's all the same Sherlock. It's more than who lost what that matters to real PvP players, It's about conflict, that rush of excitment and gaining victory when others though of you as defeated. So what you lost a few trinkets. The challenge comes from mastering the tools no matter what mmo comes your way and coming out on top among OTHER players.
And I'm so freakin glad I'm not hardcore by your definition, your definition is superficial and ass backwards.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
just having the combat be something other then a spreadsheet in space would have been a huge improvement, weapons with limited fireing arcs, ships beneftitting from carrying cannons lasers and missiles/torps, the ability to target shield emmitters or engines or weapon mounts to disable them during the fight to gain the upper hand, ect ect, something real time space combatty, rather then open up the spreadsheet wait 20 mins and see whos tank broke first during auto attack fest 09.
You are joking right? Combine Turret disabling, Target jaming, Taget dampning, Energy sucking, FOF missles, Target lock speeds, Transervsal velocity, speed and Engine jaming... LoL eve combat is mush more then just waiting for your targets Tank to break, SPider tanking, Passive tanking, active tanking or buffer tanking... EvE is a strategic game lol and you are either Trolling or just dumb and havent played EvE past a few NPC missions.......
Funny thing is, all the things they mention are technically in the game, via the tools you just mentioned. You just have to learn the mechanics of the game to understand what those tools do.
There seems to be a rash of people in these forums that claim something is too simplistic because they can't be bothered to look under the hood and see what's what.
"Poker is simplistic, just like War. They both only have 52 cards..."
All this has nothing to do with combat. All this is setup pre-combat. If i set up a giant passive tank for that 4 year old girl or an 8 year old they passive tank as well as any of you. They can passive tank for hours just as well as any of you.
Active is not hard (when your getting hit push those 4 buttons) and they tank as well as any of you. Smae with jamming and everythign else. The ability to do many things does not equal depth of game, it lends itself to this.
Thats good, but at the end of the game actually playing (other than setting-up) takes little to no skill for almost every way to make money.
Training skills takes even less skill.
And oddly enough, i posted before this thread on how basiclly most fleet action in eve is simply flying around. Peopel don't pvp when out numbered, so they run and get more then the other side runs. This happens hundreds of times every day in eve many many more times than actualk fleet battles occur. Most pvp is just ganking.
If you want a twitch skill game, go play an FPS. EVE is not a dog fight simulator. The Dev's have stated that any number of times over the years. EVE is more about load out and knowing how and when to apply mods in given situations. As for the last, there is a common saying in EVE; "If you find yourself in a fair fight, you are doing something wrong". ^^ EVE isn't a game for everyone. But its obvious that many do enjoy it.
So basically you're saying that ships mean everything and player skills mean nothing? Wow...what a way to sh-t in your own backyard. Maybe you should read a post a couple of times before you reply. Or maybe I should clarify things for you:
There is no such thing as hardcore PvPing and PvPing, it's all the same Sherlock. It's more than who lost what that matters to real PvP players, It's about conflict, that rush of excitment and gaining victory when others though of you as defeated. So what you lost a few trinkets. The challenge comes from mastering the tools no matter what mmo comes your way and coming out on top among OTHER players.
And I'm so freakin glad I'm not hardcore by your definition, your definition is superficial and ass backwards.
Without getting involved in the slanging match, many people do see 'hardcore' pvp as one which has inherent risks involved in it as well as simply 'losing'. A game with zero risk mechanic and restricted pvp aside from taking a 'ratings' hit is not really seen by many as 'hardcore'.
For me there is a clear distinction between pvp and 'hardcore' pvp, I don't atribute the former in anyway purely down to risk mechanics, but they are certainly an element of it.
A game without a risk mechanic can be considered 'hardcore' pvp (imo) should it be predominantly pvp centric and/or heavily skill based as opposed to progression/stat based.
Ofc 'hardcore' pvp does not equate automatically with 'good' pvp, you can have non hardcore games that have great pvp, and hardcore games in which the pvp sucks balls.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
So basically you're saying that ships mean everything and player skills mean nothing? Wow...what a way to sh-t in your own backyard. Maybe you should read a post a couple of times before you reply. Or maybe I should clarify things for you:
There is no such thing as hardcore PvPing and PvPing, it's all the same Sherlock. It's more than who lost what that matters to real PvP players, It's about conflict, that rush of excitment and gaining victory when others though of you as defeated. So what you lost a few trinkets. The challenge comes from mastering the tools no matter what mmo comes your way and coming out on top among OTHER players.
And I'm so freakin glad I'm not hardcore by your definition, your definition is superficial and ass backwards.
Without getting involved in the slanging match, many people do see 'hardcore' pvp as one which has inherent risks involved in it as well as simply 'losing'. A game with zero risk mechanic and restricted pvp aside from taking a 'ratings' hit is not really seen by many as 'hardcore'.
For me there is a clear distinction between pvp and 'hardcore' pvp, I don't atribute the former in anyway purely down to risk mechanics, but they are certainly an element of it.
A game without a risk mechanic can be considered 'hardcore' pvp (imo) should it be predominantly pvp centric and/or heavily skill based as opposed to progression/stat based.
Ofc 'hardcore' pvp does not equate automatically with 'good' pvp, you can have non hardcore games that have great pvp, and hardcore games in which the pvp sucks balls.
You point out players that think gear or strippping gear from your opponent equals some sort of hardcore version of PvP and I'll point out the players that figure a way to min/max gear in a way that makes sure that those they do beat who wear/use the best gear feel the "pain" a lot more than those that could care less about what they are wearing/using.
If I know I could use a claymore to slaughter quicker but it takes months to get one, don't you think I'll find a way to get YOUR claymore while using a dagger? This is the whole folly of a FFA loot PvP system. That's not about fighting for a reason as much as it is about relieving you of your personal means to fight.
Players often hearld DAoC as the pinnicale of PvPing. You know why? Because you were fighting for something more than mere trinkets. It was the same reason Shadowbane failed. If your trinkets are depended on to win a fight and they take months to get, what do you think most players will do? If you said learn to fight without them then you'd be correct. Look no futher than past PvP battles of UO and you'll find proof of that.
If you want to make PvP really "hardcore" then put in more goals that benefit the faction as a whole and less focus on stripping away the means to fight for the individual players. Maybe then you'll find more players answering the call to arms that gives them a collective reason to do so.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
just having the combat be something other then a spreadsheet in space would have been a huge improvement, weapons with limited fireing arcs, ships beneftitting from carrying cannons lasers and missiles/torps, the ability to target shield emmitters or engines or weapon mounts to disable them during the fight to gain the upper hand, ect ect, something real time space combatty, rather then open up the spreadsheet wait 20 mins and see whos tank broke first during auto attack fest 09.
You are joking right? Combine Turret disabling, Target jaming, Taget dampning, Energy sucking, FOF missles, Target lock speeds, Transervsal velocity, speed and Engine jaming... LoL eve combat is mush more then just waiting for your targets Tank to break, SPider tanking, Passive tanking, active tanking or buffer tanking... EvE is a strategic game lol and you are either Trolling or just dumb and havent played EvE past a few NPC missions.......
Funny thing is, all the things they mention are technically in the game, via the tools you just mentioned. You just have to learn the mechanics of the game to understand what those tools do.
There seems to be a rash of people in these forums that claim something is too simplistic because they can't be bothered to look under the hood and see what's what.
"Poker is simplistic, just like War. They both only have 52 cards..."
All this has nothing to do with combat. All this is setup pre-combat. If i set up a giant passive tank for that 4 year old girl or an 8 year old they passive tank as well as any of you. They can passive tank for hours just as well as any of you.
Active is not hard (when your getting hit push those 4 buttons) and they tank as well as any of you. Smae with jamming and everythign else. The ability to do many things does not equal depth of game, it lends itself to this.
Thats good, but at the end of the game actually playing (other than setting-up) takes little to no skill for almost every way to make money.
Training skills takes even less skill.
And oddly enough, i posted before this thread on how basiclly most fleet action in eve is simply flying around. Peopel don't pvp when out numbered, so they run and get more then the other side runs. This happens hundreds of times every day in eve many many more times than actualk fleet battles occur. Most pvp is just ganking.
But you say this as though using your weapons and mods strategically doesn't matter. It does.
If you put your 4 year old in a passive tank, and they just engage all their weapons and orbit, then all it means is that the other player needs to know how to destroy a passive tank. If their ship isn't powerful enough to pass the defenses despite knowing, then we're talking the equivelent of a level15 player engaging a level 50 player in any other game.
And if you're thinking, "Yeah! And all those level based games don't require skill, either!", then as others have said, this genre isn't for you. MMO's don't do twitch, and I'd bet that's not likely to change. Personally, I prefer fighting games for my "PvP", but that doesn't mean I think MMORPG PvP takes no skill. It's an entirely different animal.
WIth an active tank it's the same. If you're in fairly equivelent ships in terms of technology, you better know how and when to charge your shields. And you better hope they don't have a vamp. But yes, if you're going after a dreadnought in a frigate, it's not gonna happen. Same as any other MMO.
Like my analogy, poker, if I play against another player of about my same skill, the luck of the draw says I have a 50-50 shot. If I play up against, say, Jennifer Tilly, I may win a few hands, but she'd most likely clean me out.
And that's the way a strategic, skill-based MMO system should work.
You point out players that think gear or strippping gear from your opponent equals some sort of hardcore version of PvP and I'll point out the players that figure a way to min/max gear in a way that makes sure that those they do beat who wear/use the best gear feel the "pain" a lot more than those that could care less about what they are wearing/using.
If I know I could use a claymore to slaughter quicker but it takes months to get one, don't you think I'll find a way to get YOUR claymore while using a dagger? This is the whole folly of a FFA loot PvP system. That's not about fighting for a reason as much as it is about relieving you of your personal means to fight.
Players often hearld DAoC as the pinnicale of PvPing. You know why? Because you were fighting for something more than mere trinkets. It was the same reason Shadowbane failed. If your trinkets are depended on to win a fight and they take months to get, what do you think most players will do? If you said learn to fight without them then you'd be correct. Look no futher than past PvP battles of UO and you'll find proof of that.
If you want to make PvP really "hardcore" then put in more goals that benefit the faction as a whole and less focus on stripping away the means to fight for the individual players. Maybe then you'll find more players answering the call to arms that gives them a collective reason to do so.
A game with risk mechanics is not purely about 'trinkets', nor are they driven by players simply trying to loot each other. In such games players min/max and play for the pvp itself and hate to lose just for the loss of pride just as they do in standard pvp mmo's.
You should also never make the mistake that 'risk' is purely down to an individual character and the items he can lose, it also amounts to territory and zone control. A game in which players fight over a dynamic game world can be seen to be 'hardcore' as there is something at risk, in a way that most BG's never will be seen.
You mention DAoC, which was a very heavily pvp centric mmo which falls into what I was mentioning in the penultimate part of my previous post.
Again i'll reiterate, hardcore does not equal quality, but risk mechanics and/or a very heavily centric pvp focus do make for 'hardcore pvp'.
Diablo 2 'hardcore' characters are ones which suffer from permadeath i.e. a risk mechanic.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
EVE is a PVP centric game which lets the individual player determine what level of risk they are willing to take. Its possible to play safe and never engage in a fight, or its also possible to start fighting from day 1, I met a 30 day old player who had over 130 kills by participating in faction wars. It's all what you chose to make of it.
I've known people who went out into 0.0 on their 3rd day in EVE, one in particular that I'm thinking of has been there ever since and has run a corp there for over 4 years now.
One thing you can be sure of, not going to 0.0 because you're too new, or have too few skill points shows and that might lose alot shows you really don't understand EVE.
There's people with 100M SP's who's corps and alliances find themselves blown out of 0.0 space completely, happens every day, its the nature of EVE, and so far, I've not seen any group stay on top forever, there's always going to be someone stronger who comes along and takes your space away from you.
No, EVE might not be as open as say a game like DF is, but overall its a pretty rugged PvP experience for those who seek it out.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Whichever way you spin it, it has pretty passive combat. All "skills" work on activate/deactivate basis and the player controls his/her ship indirectly. What neorandom clearly was wishing for is a more active combat. Consider this: Eve's combat videos are nearly always shown in double speed.
The game is far simpler than it first appears if one chooses to see it. Many things boil into simple hit chance, damage penetration/reduction, diceroll if the target is jammed or not, "mana burn/drain", regeneration rates and "mana/HP pools" etc.
I too would want more active combat in a spaceship game. Most of the time I was made busy only by that the server performance is less than ideal and the UI is bad.
Aside from fps targetting games (and even them to an extent) all mmo's work on a activate/deactivate basis. Running around like a nub or to get LOS does not greatly help you in the vast majority of standard mmos due to autolock.
Not true. Majority of skills have a onetime, instant effect. For example you do not deactivate a fireball or a spell interruption.
Again aside from fps aiming games most other mmo's have hit rolls and the like, again in EVE there is far more control over variables like rate of fire, damage type vs enemy, tank type, movement speed and the like then there is in most autolock mmo's.
More control? From your examples alone:
Rate of fire as in changing to a faster weapon or buffs that increase attack speed?
Damage type as in changing from fire spell to ice spell or from physical damage to spiritual damage?
Tank type as in
proactive tanking (using buffs and taking active measures to avoid damage),
reactive tanking (healing against damage) or
passive tanking (soaking damage)?
Movement speed as in
traps,
snares,
roots and
speed boosts?
I believe the trend is actually away from to-hit rolls. Personally I consider them archaic.
Eve simply doesn't have "active skills" as other games have them.
If people are comparing it to a twitch mmo like DF then yes, the combat activity is far slower and seemingly less player driven, but compared to the majority of generic autolock mmo's, the action feels on a par given you are flying about in what can be fucking huge spaceships.
Well that's my point. Best of them do it far better than Eve does. It is passive combat.
I can understand the want to zip about in interceptors and the like but in larger ships with supposed large scale weapon systems and the like, really? Manually moving a large ship at slow speeds and trying to mouse aim multiple weapons at multiple targets at once sounds fun...
Yes, large ships don't necessarily need direct control. On the contrary indirect control would actually be preferred if the ship was slow and clumsy.
I don't know what games you've been playing but clearly you need to update.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
to the OP goto 0.0 and defend ur space. then tell me wat pvp is like. its medevil rough specially when ya get 1500+ vs 1500+ but epic fun. ant nothing carebear bout it then. ofc their is time when ya dont have something to kill. hence that is what 0.0 roams are for. u go find stuff to kill. Hence PvP!.piss on empire n wardec's. 0.0 is where the real fun is.
I don't know what games you've been playing but clearly you need to update.
While I don't disagree with you regarding other games having similar combat effects...
...with Eve, you can switch which effects, powers, abilities you have.
You can change rate of fire, sacrificing it(or not) for more damage per shot, better tracking speed, a different effective range, or damage type. You can modify the "tick" time of active defense systems, how much per tick, or battery use per tick...
Almost every stat involving a component can be modified by some other component(s). There are some other MMO's that can make that claim, but none have made it so easy to change so quickly.
CO bragged about its system of power creation and flexibility. It ain't a zit on the butt of the system Eve uses.
Again, saying it's just a passive combat game is a massive mischaracterization. Criticizing it's speed? Yeah, I get that. Criticizing the dullness of PvE? Sure. But in prep time OR in space, if you're passive, you'll lose to an active player.
WoW a lot of replies. I did read most of them I promise.
About 0.0, I think that many EvE players say exageratte things like "you can PvP effectively inside a week of playing" etc etc. While the reality is somewhat different. In a completely optimal world, maybe this would be true. EvE is anything but optimal. There are many roadblocks that will stop you.
Getting anf staying in 0.0 is a challenging task, and really not fitted for someone who wants to experience EvE for himself. I'm not the type who likes having games handed to me on a platter. By joining a 0.0 alliance I would be doing that. The entire game would be learned to me, rather than learned by me.
I'm not saying that perhaps PvP isn't better in 0.0, just that is is much harder to obtain than most of you put it.
To the "wah I can't kill people in high sec bunch"
I understand the need for protected space so people can actually play the game if they need to. I am neither hardcore, nor care bear really. I am someone in the middle. However, when someone wardecs me and I can't take the fight to them, simply because of these mechanics. There is something wrong there. I'm just saying, that the mechanisms are so strict that it bothers even consentual PvP. Because 9/10 the consentual PvP loser will use these items to get away or not lose his ship.
Example. Someone wardecss your corp. You stay in station while they are logged in. Once not many of them are logged in you want to take the fight to them right? No no, you go camp their stations. And so goes high sec warefare.
In 0.0 you can attack anyone anytime anyways. A wardec is not necessary. So wardecing IS IS IS IS a lowsec/highsec mechanic. And this mechanic is broken beyond all hell due to the station/stargate features in those area.
I'm not quitting EvE, and I don't hate the game, so please don't treat me as such. I do still really like the game. I just feel PvP is cheapened in this game and is more rough even in what some consider the most care bear game on earth, World of Warcraft.
A valid arguement is the item loss on EvE. But if you can imagine item loss not being in EvE, people would still use these mechanisms in the same way they do now. It might change, but not in any great way.
One person said I'm on the wrong server for real PvP. This is absolutely true. Want good pvp, go to test server. Or join RvB lol
I don't know what games you've been playing but clearly you need to update.
While I don't disagree with you regarding other games having similar combat effects...
...with Eve, you can switch which effects, powers, abilities you have.
You can change rate of fire, sacrificing it(or not) for more damage per shot, better tracking speed, a different effective range, or damage type. You can modify the "tick" time of active defense systems, how much per tick, or battery use per tick...
Almost every stat involving a component can be modified by some other component(s). There are some other MMO's that can make that claim, but none have made it so easy to change so quickly.
CO bragged about its system of power creation and flexibility. It ain't a zit on the butt of the system Eve uses.
Again, saying it's just a passive combat game is a massive mischaracterization. Criticizing it's speed? Yeah, I get that. Criticizing the dullness of PvE? Sure. But in prep time OR in space, if you're passive, you'll lose to an active player.
Nah I don't see the flexibility part. Sure, once you've trained your skills it is flexible - but isn't every other game as flexible after you've made a few alts?
Yeah, I agree that "passive combat" is a bad term for it. Maybe "more passive combat" who gives a damn... -As long as we know what we're talking about someone will make up the right adjective for it eventually.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I don't know what games you've been playing but clearly you need to update.
While I don't disagree with you regarding other games having similar combat effects...
...with Eve, you can switch which effects, powers, abilities you have.
You can change rate of fire, sacrificing it(or not) for more damage per shot, better tracking speed, a different effective range, or damage type. You can modify the "tick" time of active defense systems, how much per tick, or battery use per tick...
Almost every stat involving a component can be modified by some other component(s). There are some other MMO's that can make that claim, but none have made it so easy to change so quickly.
CO bragged about its system of power creation and flexibility. It ain't a zit on the butt of the system Eve uses.
Again, saying it's just a passive combat game is a massive mischaracterization. Criticizing it's speed? Yeah, I get that. Criticizing the dullness of PvE? Sure. But in prep time OR in space, if you're passive, you'll lose to an active player.
Nah I don't see the flexibility part. Sure, once you've trained your skills it is flexible - but isn't every other game as flexible after you've made a few alts?
If so, I haven't played it.
No class based MMO could possibly qualify. Good ones give you plenty of skills and options to customize to a small extent, but nothing compared to Eve. You could build a ship to be a cross between a Rogue and a Hunter, for example, to use WoW terms. You could then turn around and refit the ship to be a mage, with a number of slow and drain effects. Or switch to an entirely different ship and be a tank. No grinding to max for several alts, taking months if not years, and in so doing, still being limited to what each class can do at any given time.
If you want to spend days training up an alt limited by the skills of that class instead of spending minutes creating a new ship build, more power to ya.
And most skill based MMO's won't allow you to swap out roles like that, either. Ryzom is the closest to possible that I know of, since you can customize your abilities. CoX uses enhancements which are significant, and they allow 3 different builds, but they're still builds where you have pretty much the same powers.
Yeah, I agree that "passive combat" is a bad term for it. Maybe "more passive combat" who gives a damn... -As long as we know what we're talking about someone will make up the right adjective for it eventually.
agreed. But I'd add that folks that tend to use the word "passive" to describe Eve combat are probably folks that were primarily fighting PvE, and that they were going after far less powerful mobs. That it's not easy to determine the challenge level of the PVE ships, or where to find challenging PVE ships... that's a criticism I don't mind making. Eve's PVE is pretty dull.
"About 0.0, I think that many EvE players say exageratte things like "you can PvP effectively inside a week of playing" etc etc. While the reality is somewhat different. In a completely optimal world, maybe this would be true. EvE is anything but optimal. There are many roadblocks that will stop you.
Getting anf staying in 0.0 is a challenging task, and really not fitted for someone who wants to experience EvE for himself. I'm not the type who likes having games handed to me on a platter. By joining a 0.0 alliance I would be doing that. The entire game would be learned to me, rather than learned by me."
This is true, communication is a big and integral part of EVE. If you'd like to play the game for yourself, maybe you should try other single player games? This is an MMO after all. But having said that, I know people who have successfuly managed single play and are happy with the game.
"About 0.0, I think that many EvE players say exageratte things like "you can PvP effectively inside a week of playing" etc etc. While the reality is somewhat different. In a completely optimal world, maybe this would be true. EvE is anything but optimal. There are many roadblocks that will stop you.
Getting anf staying in 0.0 is a challenging task, and really not fitted for someone who wants to experience EvE for himself. I'm not the type who likes having games handed to me on a platter. By joining a 0.0 alliance I would be doing that. The entire game would be learned to me, rather than learned by me."
This is true, communication is a big and integral part of EVE. If you'd like to play the game for yourself, maybe you should try other single player games? This is an MMO after all. But having said that, I know people who have successfuly managed single play and are happy with the game.
Only thing most 0.0 corps teach is PvP builds and tactics, anything else they tell you to look it up in a guide.
Originally posted by Quirhid Not true. Majority of skills have a onetime, instant effect. For example you do not deactivate a fireball or a spell interruption.Eve simply doesn't have "active skills" as other games have them.Yes, large ships don't necessarily need direct control. On the contrary indirect control would actually be preferred if the ship was slow and clumsy.
You can turn module automatic cycling off if you wish and there you go and have active skills with instant effect and button mashing like any other game. The question is, why would you do that...
All EVE ships are pretty 'large', even frigates. I always found the idea of manual piloting a spaceship very stupid...
It all boils down to complex mechanics vs. direct player control. Complex combat system means the result is less depending on player action such as would be manual aiming. Passive? Dunno...it is like a difference between commander observing the situation and giving orders and a soldier executing the commands. I would not say one is more passive than other, not a good term.
Nah I don't see the flexibility part. Sure, once you've trained your skills it is flexible - but isn't every other game as flexible after you've made a few alts?
Yeah, I agree that "passive combat" is a bad term for it. Maybe "more passive combat" who gives a damn... -As long as we know what we're talking about someone will make up the right adjective for it eventually.
The funny part is most players try to make games closer to EVE's combat system. They do it through macros. They make it so instead of hitting a vast quantity of buttons in the same repeative cycle they only have to hit it once. My guardian in Lotro if I block an attack I hit 1 of 2 three-buttons combos in the same order every time. The only choice I have between them comes from if I'm by myself or in a group.
Now I could get the same button smashing experience in EVE if I just turned off the Auto-repeat function of all my active mods. I mean in the grand scheme I'd be hitting 4-8 attack buttons as soon as the Cool-down finishes, and then one or two others as there more and likely much larger cooldown goes off. Besides Keyboard wear, whats the difference between a healer hitting say F1 every 4 seconds to apply a heal to the main tank, and a Basilisk pilot pressing F1 once and watching his shield transfer fire off every 4 seconds on his fleetmate?
Now sure certain skills may have slightly different effects in I'll say more more traditional style MMOs, but for the most part they aren't that different. I mean with the exception of a few begining of fight abilities or longer cooldowns almost every boos fight degenerate into the same mentality for every character but the healers. Constantly spamming the same buttons against one target only occasionally switching targets for adds. Now healers tend to be doing much more in fights with constantly switching targets and generally I would have to say they truely have the hardest and most challanging aspect in most games and the same is true in EVE. As a Guardian pilot in a pvp fleet I am almost always trying to accomplsih 18 things at once, and almost all of them exactly the same as a healer in WoW, LoTRO, EQ, whatever...
Be honest I think that is where a lot of people over simplify EvE combat because they are so used to an overly complex system. For another example of this Look at the Master of Orion series and Sword of the Stars. A lot of people complained about the oversimplification of Swords planet system. They were so used to constructing the same 20-30 building in the same order that when anothor game realized that everyone had the same construction order its best to just get rid of those extra steps, they complained. Now the end result in both systems is the same but overall the Swords method is just far less intrusive and repeative.
Now I'm not going to comment on the movement aspects of games. I have a feeling that will boil down to the people who like jumping up and down or trying to constantly do the spin of death to throw off an ability or two compared to those who prefer auto-facing (which I much prefer myself), because that really is of your own personal playstyle.
Originally posted by gauge2k3 About 0.0, I think that many EvE players say exageratte things like "you can PvP effectively inside a week of playing" etc etc.
It isn't exaggerated and it is indeed a reality. The thing is, not everyone can do it, which is just fine.
The fact you do not understand certain game mechanics does not make it wrong nor broken... What you call 'cheapened PVP' is complexity actually and your 'real PVP' equals to simplified PVP such as you can experience on a test server.
Comments
You are joking right? Combine Turret disabling, Target jaming, Taget dampning, Energy sucking, FOF missles, Target lock speeds, Transervsal velocity, speed and Engine jaming... LoL eve combat is mush more then just waiting for your targets Tank to break, SPider tanking, Passive tanking, active tanking or buffer tanking... EvE is a strategic game lol and you are either Trolling or just dumb and havent played EvE past a few NPC missions.......
Funny thing is, all the things they mention are technically in the game, via the tools you just mentioned. You just have to learn the mechanics of the game to understand what those tools do.
There seems to be a rash of people in these forums that claim something is too simplistic because they can't be bothered to look under the hood and see what's what.
"Poker is simplistic, just like War. They both only have 52 cards..."
Whichever way you spin it, it has pretty passive combat. All "skills" work on activate/deactivate basis and the player controls his/her ship indirectly. What neorandom clearly was wishing for is a more active combat. Consider this: Eve's combat videos are nearly always shown in double speed.
The game is far simpler than it first appears if one chooses to see it. Many things boil into simple hit chance, damage penetration/reduction, diceroll if the target is jammed or not, "mana burn/drain", regeneration rates and "mana/HP pools" etc.
I too would want more active combat in a spaceship game. Most of the time I was made busy only by that the server performance is less than ideal and the UI is bad.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Aside from fps targetting games (and even them to an extent) all mmo's work on a activate/deactivate basis. Running around like a nub or to get LOS does not greatly help you in the vast majority of standard mmos due to autolock.
Again aside from fps aiming games most other mmo's have hit rolls and the like, again in EVE there is far more control over variables like rate of fire, damage type vs enemy, tank type, movement speed and the like then there is in most autolock mmo's.
If people are comparing it to a twitch mmo like DF then yes, the combat activity is far slower and seemingly less player driven, but compared to the majority of generic autolock mmo's, the action feels on a par given you are flying about in what can be fucking huge spaceships.
I can understand the want to zip about in interceptors and the like but in larger ships with supposed large scale weapon systems and the like, really? Manually moving a large ship at slow speeds and trying to mouse aim multiple weapons at multiple targets at once sounds fun...
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
All this has nothing to do with combat. All this is setup pre-combat. If i set up a giant passive tank for that 4 year old girl or an 8 year old they passive tank as well as any of you. They can passive tank for hours just as well as any of you.
Active is not hard (when your getting hit push those 4 buttons) and they tank as well as any of you. Smae with jamming and everythign else. The ability to do many things does not equal depth of game, it lends itself to this.
Thats good, but at the end of the game actually playing (other than setting-up) takes little to no skill for almost every way to make money.
Training skills takes even less skill.
And oddly enough, i posted before this thread on how basiclly most fleet action in eve is simply flying around. Peopel don't pvp when out numbered, so they run and get more then the other side runs. This happens hundreds of times every day in eve many many more times than actualk fleet battles occur. Most pvp is just ganking.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
So basically you're saying that ships mean everything and player skills mean nothing? Wow...what a way to sh-t in your own backyard. Maybe you should read a post a couple of times before you reply. Or maybe I should clarify things for you:
There is no such thing as hardcore PvPing and PvPing, it's all the same Sherlock. It's more than who lost what that matters to real PvP players, It's about conflict, that rush of excitment and gaining victory when others though of you as defeated. So what you lost a few trinkets. The challenge comes from mastering the tools no matter what mmo comes your way and coming out on top among OTHER players.
And I'm so freakin glad I'm not hardcore by your definition, your definition is superficial and ass backwards.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
If you want a twitch skill game, go play an FPS. EVE is not a dog fight simulator. The Dev's have stated that any number of times over the years. EVE is more about load out and knowing how and when to apply mods in given situations. As for the last, there is a common saying in EVE; "If you find yourself in a fair fight, you are doing something wrong". ^^ EVE isn't a game for everyone. But its obvious that many do enjoy it.
Without getting involved in the slanging match, many people do see 'hardcore' pvp as one which has inherent risks involved in it as well as simply 'losing'. A game with zero risk mechanic and restricted pvp aside from taking a 'ratings' hit is not really seen by many as 'hardcore'.
For me there is a clear distinction between pvp and 'hardcore' pvp, I don't atribute the former in anyway purely down to risk mechanics, but they are certainly an element of it.
A game without a risk mechanic can be considered 'hardcore' pvp (imo) should it be predominantly pvp centric and/or heavily skill based as opposed to progression/stat based.
Ofc 'hardcore' pvp does not equate automatically with 'good' pvp, you can have non hardcore games that have great pvp, and hardcore games in which the pvp sucks balls.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
You point out players that think gear or strippping gear from your opponent equals some sort of hardcore version of PvP and I'll point out the players that figure a way to min/max gear in a way that makes sure that those they do beat who wear/use the best gear feel the "pain" a lot more than those that could care less about what they are wearing/using.
If I know I could use a claymore to slaughter quicker but it takes months to get one, don't you think I'll find a way to get YOUR claymore while using a dagger? This is the whole folly of a FFA loot PvP system. That's not about fighting for a reason as much as it is about relieving you of your personal means to fight.
Players often hearld DAoC as the pinnicale of PvPing. You know why? Because you were fighting for something more than mere trinkets. It was the same reason Shadowbane failed. If your trinkets are depended on to win a fight and they take months to get, what do you think most players will do? If you said learn to fight without them then you'd be correct. Look no futher than past PvP battles of UO and you'll find proof of that.
If you want to make PvP really "hardcore" then put in more goals that benefit the faction as a whole and less focus on stripping away the means to fight for the individual players. Maybe then you'll find more players answering the call to arms that gives them a collective reason to do so.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
If EVE is too "carebear" for anyone, then I'm sure there are plenty of other games which are more hardcore, such as
Give me liberty or give me lasers
But you say this as though using your weapons and mods strategically doesn't matter. It does.
If you put your 4 year old in a passive tank, and they just engage all their weapons and orbit, then all it means is that the other player needs to know how to destroy a passive tank. If their ship isn't powerful enough to pass the defenses despite knowing, then we're talking the equivelent of a level15 player engaging a level 50 player in any other game.
And if you're thinking, "Yeah! And all those level based games don't require skill, either!", then as others have said, this genre isn't for you. MMO's don't do twitch, and I'd bet that's not likely to change. Personally, I prefer fighting games for my "PvP", but that doesn't mean I think MMORPG PvP takes no skill. It's an entirely different animal.
WIth an active tank it's the same. If you're in fairly equivelent ships in terms of technology, you better know how and when to charge your shields. And you better hope they don't have a vamp. But yes, if you're going after a dreadnought in a frigate, it's not gonna happen. Same as any other MMO.
Like my analogy, poker, if I play against another player of about my same skill, the luck of the draw says I have a 50-50 shot. If I play up against, say, Jennifer Tilly, I may win a few hands, but she'd most likely clean me out.
And that's the way a strategic, skill-based MMO system should work.
A game with risk mechanics is not purely about 'trinkets', nor are they driven by players simply trying to loot each other. In such games players min/max and play for the pvp itself and hate to lose just for the loss of pride just as they do in standard pvp mmo's.
You should also never make the mistake that 'risk' is purely down to an individual character and the items he can lose, it also amounts to territory and zone control. A game in which players fight over a dynamic game world can be seen to be 'hardcore' as there is something at risk, in a way that most BG's never will be seen.
You mention DAoC, which was a very heavily pvp centric mmo which falls into what I was mentioning in the penultimate part of my previous post.
Again i'll reiterate, hardcore does not equal quality, but risk mechanics and/or a very heavily centric pvp focus do make for 'hardcore pvp'.
Diablo 2 'hardcore' characters are ones which suffer from permadeath i.e. a risk mechanic.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
EVE is a PVP centric game which lets the individual player determine what level of risk they are willing to take. Its possible to play safe and never engage in a fight, or its also possible to start fighting from day 1, I met a 30 day old player who had over 130 kills by participating in faction wars. It's all what you chose to make of it.
I've known people who went out into 0.0 on their 3rd day in EVE, one in particular that I'm thinking of has been there ever since and has run a corp there for over 4 years now.
One thing you can be sure of, not going to 0.0 because you're too new, or have too few skill points shows and that might lose alot shows you really don't understand EVE.
There's people with 100M SP's who's corps and alliances find themselves blown out of 0.0 space completely, happens every day, its the nature of EVE, and so far, I've not seen any group stay on top forever, there's always going to be someone stronger who comes along and takes your space away from you.
No, EVE might not be as open as say a game like DF is, but overall its a pretty rugged PvP experience for those who seek it out.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't know what games you've been playing but clearly you need to update.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
to the OP goto 0.0 and defend ur space. then tell me wat pvp is like. its medevil rough specially when ya get 1500+ vs 1500+ but epic fun. ant nothing carebear bout it then. ofc their is time when ya dont have something to kill. hence that is what 0.0 roams are for. u go find stuff to kill. Hence PvP!.piss on empire n wardec's. 0.0 is where the real fun is.
While I don't disagree with you regarding other games having similar combat effects...
...with Eve, you can switch which effects, powers, abilities you have.
You can change rate of fire, sacrificing it(or not) for more damage per shot, better tracking speed, a different effective range, or damage type. You can modify the "tick" time of active defense systems, how much per tick, or battery use per tick...
Almost every stat involving a component can be modified by some other component(s). There are some other MMO's that can make that claim, but none have made it so easy to change so quickly.
CO bragged about its system of power creation and flexibility. It ain't a zit on the butt of the system Eve uses.
Again, saying it's just a passive combat game is a massive mischaracterization. Criticizing it's speed? Yeah, I get that. Criticizing the dullness of PvE? Sure. But in prep time OR in space, if you're passive, you'll lose to an active player.
WoW a lot of replies. I did read most of them I promise.
About 0.0, I think that many EvE players say exageratte things like "you can PvP effectively inside a week of playing" etc etc. While the reality is somewhat different. In a completely optimal world, maybe this would be true. EvE is anything but optimal. There are many roadblocks that will stop you.
Getting anf staying in 0.0 is a challenging task, and really not fitted for someone who wants to experience EvE for himself. I'm not the type who likes having games handed to me on a platter. By joining a 0.0 alliance I would be doing that. The entire game would be learned to me, rather than learned by me.
I'm not saying that perhaps PvP isn't better in 0.0, just that is is much harder to obtain than most of you put it.
To the "wah I can't kill people in high sec bunch"
I understand the need for protected space so people can actually play the game if they need to. I am neither hardcore, nor care bear really. I am someone in the middle. However, when someone wardecs me and I can't take the fight to them, simply because of these mechanics. There is something wrong there. I'm just saying, that the mechanisms are so strict that it bothers even consentual PvP. Because 9/10 the consentual PvP loser will use these items to get away or not lose his ship.
Example. Someone wardecss your corp. You stay in station while they are logged in. Once not many of them are logged in you want to take the fight to them right? No no, you go camp their stations. And so goes high sec warefare.
In 0.0 you can attack anyone anytime anyways. A wardec is not necessary. So wardecing IS IS IS IS a lowsec/highsec mechanic. And this mechanic is broken beyond all hell due to the station/stargate features in those area.
I'm not quitting EvE, and I don't hate the game, so please don't treat me as such. I do still really like the game. I just feel PvP is cheapened in this game and is more rough even in what some consider the most care bear game on earth, World of Warcraft.
A valid arguement is the item loss on EvE. But if you can imagine item loss not being in EvE, people would still use these mechanisms in the same way they do now. It might change, but not in any great way.
One person said I'm on the wrong server for real PvP. This is absolutely true. Want good pvp, go to test server. Or join RvB lol
Nice job man. Just poke the EVE online player hornets nest with a stick and watch your thread explode. Totally predictable....:)
Nah I don't see the flexibility part. Sure, once you've trained your skills it is flexible - but isn't every other game as flexible after you've made a few alts?
Yeah, I agree that "passive combat" is a bad term for it. Maybe "more passive combat" who gives a damn... -As long as we know what we're talking about someone will make up the right adjective for it eventually.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
"About 0.0, I think that many EvE players say exageratte things like "you can PvP effectively inside a week of playing" etc etc. While the reality is somewhat different. In a completely optimal world, maybe this would be true. EvE is anything but optimal. There are many roadblocks that will stop you.
Getting anf staying in 0.0 is a challenging task, and really not fitted for someone who wants to experience EvE for himself. I'm not the type who likes having games handed to me on a platter. By joining a 0.0 alliance I would be doing that. The entire game would be learned to me, rather than learned by me."
This is true, communication is a big and integral part of EVE. If you'd like to play the game for yourself, maybe you should try other single player games? This is an MMO after all. But having said that, I know people who have successfuly managed single play and are happy with the game.
Keep on rockin'!
Only thing most 0.0 corps teach is PvP builds and tactics, anything else they tell you to look it up in a guide.
You can turn module automatic cycling off if you wish and there you go and have active skills with instant effect and button mashing like any other game. The question is, why would you do that...
All EVE ships are pretty 'large', even frigates. I always found the idea of manual piloting a spaceship very stupid...
It all boils down to complex mechanics vs. direct player control. Complex combat system means the result is less depending on player action such as would be manual aiming. Passive? Dunno...it is like a difference between commander observing the situation and giving orders and a soldier executing the commands. I would not say one is more passive than other, not a good term.
The funny part is most players try to make games closer to EVE's combat system. They do it through macros. They make it so instead of hitting a vast quantity of buttons in the same repeative cycle they only have to hit it once. My guardian in Lotro if I block an attack I hit 1 of 2 three-buttons combos in the same order every time. The only choice I have between them comes from if I'm by myself or in a group.
Now I could get the same button smashing experience in EVE if I just turned off the Auto-repeat function of all my active mods. I mean in the grand scheme I'd be hitting 4-8 attack buttons as soon as the Cool-down finishes, and then one or two others as there more and likely much larger cooldown goes off. Besides Keyboard wear, whats the difference between a healer hitting say F1 every 4 seconds to apply a heal to the main tank, and a Basilisk pilot pressing F1 once and watching his shield transfer fire off every 4 seconds on his fleetmate?
Now sure certain skills may have slightly different effects in I'll say more more traditional style MMOs, but for the most part they aren't that different. I mean with the exception of a few begining of fight abilities or longer cooldowns almost every boos fight degenerate into the same mentality for every character but the healers. Constantly spamming the same buttons against one target only occasionally switching targets for adds. Now healers tend to be doing much more in fights with constantly switching targets and generally I would have to say they truely have the hardest and most challanging aspect in most games and the same is true in EVE. As a Guardian pilot in a pvp fleet I am almost always trying to accomplsih 18 things at once, and almost all of them exactly the same as a healer in WoW, LoTRO, EQ, whatever...
Be honest I think that is where a lot of people over simplify EvE combat because they are so used to an overly complex system. For another example of this Look at the Master of Orion series and Sword of the Stars. A lot of people complained about the oversimplification of Swords planet system. They were so used to constructing the same 20-30 building in the same order that when anothor game realized that everyone had the same construction order its best to just get rid of those extra steps, they complained. Now the end result in both systems is the same but overall the Swords method is just far less intrusive and repeative.
Now I'm not going to comment on the movement aspects of games. I have a feeling that will boil down to the people who like jumping up and down or trying to constantly do the spin of death to throw off an ability or two compared to those who prefer auto-facing (which I much prefer myself), because that really is of your own personal playstyle.
It isn't exaggerated and it is indeed a reality. The thing is, not everyone can do it, which is just fine.
The fact you do not understand certain game mechanics does not make it wrong nor broken... What you call 'cheapened PVP' is complexity actually and your 'real PVP' equals to simplified PVP such as you can experience on a test server.