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Delusional?

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  • DiekfooDiekfoo Member Posts: 583

    Originally posted by raff01

    Originally posted by funkmastaD


    Originally posted by HanoverZ


    Originally posted by raff01

    not only are they delusional but they have just taken Fanboism to another level , check this out :

     

    http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/55994-henrik.html

     

    Thats kinda creepy :

     

     

    Photo of Henrik

     

    It's a joke, get over it.  The fanboys still aren't taking any of this as seriously as some of you are.

    I think you are underestimating the fanboys. They are taking this quite seriously, many of them have actually made their avatar out of this picture. They worship Henrik like the guy is a rockstar, and frankly, its quite pathetic.

    lol they have fun doing it. You take it so serious.

    But still the players see what MO have and see a great future for MO. MO is like no other MMO. People feels it's like the last review MMORPG.COM had ... very entertaining to play even thou it got some bugs. 

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member LegendaryPosts: 7,441

    Yes, the bad publicity MO has received pretty much kept me from following it. I do however read a thread every now and then, such as this one. The thread didn't really catch my eye, but rather what I saw on the official forums. An actual forum section for in-game trading? Sorry, but this just struck me as funny. Definitely indie style gaming here, lol.

  • raff01raff01 Member Posts: 453

    Originally posted by Diekfoo

    Originally posted by raff01


    Originally posted by funkmastaD


    Originally posted by HanoverZ


    Originally posted by raff01

    not only are they delusional but they have just taken Fanboism to another level , check this out :

     

    http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/55994-henrik.html

     

    Thats kinda creepy :

     

     

    Photo of Henrik

     

    It's a joke, get over it.  The fanboys still aren't taking any of this as seriously as some of you are.

    I think you are underestimating the fanboys. They are taking this quite seriously, many of them have actually made their avatar out of this picture. They worship Henrik like the guy is a rockstar, and frankly, its quite pathetic.

    lol they have fun doing it. You take it so serious.

    But still the players see what MO have and see a great future for MO. MO is like no other MMO. People feels it's like the last review MMORPG.COM had ... very entertaining to play even thou it got some bugs. 

    MO indeed is like no other MMO. No other MMO that I ever played made me pay for a Beta. No other mmo has so many bugs, no other mmo has a such a sinkhole of customer support, no other mmo has to get community members to program a patcher for it, no other mmo releases untested patches that break more stuff than it fixes, no other mmo has GM's dictating the course of events between guilds, no other mmo omits an entire part of the world leaving a giant hole after a patch, no other mmo has such a poor AI, no other mmo has 1 or 2 quests only, no other mmo has just 2 dungeons only, no other mmo has mobs that don't drop any loot at all but just crafting materials, no other mmo lets you play offline without telling you you're offline...

    So yes you are right on one thing : MO is like no other MMO...

  • funkmastaDfunkmastaD Member UncommonPosts: 647

    Originally posted by raff01

    Originally posted by funkmastaD


    Originally posted by HanoverZ


    Originally posted by raff01

    not only are they delusional but they have just taken Fanboism to another level , check this out :

     

    http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/55994-henrik.html

     

    Thats kinda creepy :

     

     

    Photo of Henrik

     

    It's a joke, get over it.  The fanboys still aren't taking any of this as seriously as some of you are.

    I think you are underestimating the fanboys. They are taking this quite seriously, many of them have actually made their avatar out of this picture. They worship Henrik like the guy is a rockstar, and frankly, its quite pathetic.

    It's a joke.  They're having a good time.  It's like a bunch of nerds throwing some nerdy party... sure it's kinda lame, but those nerds aren't nearly as lame as the people standing outside the house, cursing and throwing eggs because it's not their kind of party (and clearly have no where else to go).

    Besides, it's not like worshipping game devs is any worse than worshipping rockstars, just a bit more nerdy... and frankly, no one that cruises internet forums based around internet games can throw the 'nerd' stone.

  • raff01raff01 Member Posts: 453

    Well we then do come back to the original point : nerds are somehow a cult, and the nerdier you get the more the circle closes, and the more pathetic it gets.

  • jimmydatwinjimmydatwin Member UncommonPosts: 68

    I strongly disagree with people who says these people paying and not playing are "supporting the release of crappy games".  I believe these people are supporting the release of original games.  So a new company came out with a game that wasn't a WoW clone and tried something new that has yet to come together (granted it may never). 

    The people who are paying and not playing are actually helping the MMO industry evolve and showing developers its ok to take risks if you have a vision that the public supports (even if it is a small few that some feel is a cult..)   If you don't believe in the developer or the idea, fine don't support it(and if no one does then it wil eventually die).  If your unsure how it is going to turn out (like me) then hold off and see what happens. 

    I'm not saying that MO is the next big thing or the game that changes everything.  I'm not even saying it will succeed or even deserves to succeed, but these people believe in what SV is trying to accomplish and want to see it succeed.  They would rather pay $15(a cheap meal) per month to support the cause and not see this game(their dream MMO) die.  I mean in all honesty can anyone name any other MMO coming out in the next year that hopes to acheive the same thing as MO.

    And the end of the day I actually thank the supporters of MO with active supscriptions, because if it does come through with what it was originally intended to be: then it will be one hell of a game.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,561

    Originally posted by jimmydatwin

    I strongly disagree with people who says these people paying and not playing are "supporting the release of crappy games".  I believe these people are supporting the release of original games.  So a new company came out with a game that wasn't a WoW clone and tried something new that has yet to come together (granted it may never). 

    The people who are paying and not playing are actually helping the MMO industry evolve and showing developers its ok to take risks if you have a vision that the public supports (even if it is a small few that some feel is a cult..)   If you don't believe in the developer or the idea, fine don't support it(and if no one does then it wil eventually die).  If your unsure how it is going to turn out (like me) then hold off and see what happens. 

    I'm not saying that MO is the next big thing or the game that changes everything.  I'm not even saying it will succeed or even deserves to succeed, but these people believe in what SV is trying to accomplish and want to see it succeed.  They would rather pay $15(a cheap meal) per month to support the cause and not see this game(their dream MMO) die.  I mean in all honesty can anyone name any other MMO coming out in the next year that hopes to acheive the same thing as MO.

    And the end of the day I actually thank the supporters of MO with active supscriptions, because if it does come through with what it was originally intended to be: then it will be one hell of a game.

     You are certainly entitled to your opinion.  mine is quite different.

     

    I believe that we, as a community have accepted shovelware for so long that it is now becoming standard practice. I see developers looking at their predecessors and seeling what they got away with when shipping a game, and then taking it down another notch.  As evidence I will point to this years MMORPG.COM vote for NEW GAME OF THE YEAR.  The thread discussion makes it quite evident that the community is reaching a turning point.   I have a strong suspicion that NONE OF THE ABOVE will end up the winner.  Hopefully it will send a message to deveopers that the community at large is tired of having to chose between game with good concepts and poor implementation, and games with crappy concepts but good implementation. The worldwide videogame and interactive entertainment industry revenue  topped $57 BILLION in 2009 ( http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/industry-revenue-57-billion-in-2009-says-dfc ). Just looking at US videogame and computer games it was still $20 BILLION ( http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=26708 ). When there is that much money being pumped into an industry, we shouldn't have to choose between bad games.  For comparison.. the total US boxoffice revenue for 2009 was about $10.5 billion (http://boxofficemojo.com/yearly/).  We wouldn't expect to go to a movie that didn't have it's ending complete.. was missing half the special effects... switched actors partway through.. and would randomly shut down for 12 hours in the middle of a show.  You know.. I absolutely love fantasy movies, but there is a huge difference between the LOTR movies and The Dungeons and Dragons movie ( http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-New-Line-Platinum/dp/B00003CXQM/ref=cm_lmf_tit_3 ).  IMHO The LOTR movies helped the genre gain respectability and opened the door for things like the upcoming Game of Thrones series on HBO.  The poorly produced Dungeons and Dragons movie didn't help the genre in any way shape or form and actually was a waste of a great license.  So movies, just like game.. need both a great concept AND great execution.

     

    No.. instead of "supporting the cause" by pumping money into shovelware, we should hold our portion of the $57,000,000,000 until they deliver something worthwhile.  I truely do believe that companies are starting to take note. RIFT is making it's polish on release a HUGE part of it's marketing.  Will the game be fun?  No idea... but it's nice to see a company actually try to RAISE the bar for a change instead of seeing how low they can take it.   If they couple it with fun gameplay... I will purchase the game as a consumer.. to enjoy the product.  If they don't couple it with good gameplay (or don't deliver on their promised polish) I will not purchase the game.  That's the distinction between being a consumer and being a "supporter".

     

    Those are my throughts in general.  In specific, speaking about Starvault I will simply say that any company that STILL has not delivered the promised DVDs to their customers 6 MONTHS after launch of the game does not deserve any support whatsoever.  When a company states they will do something... sells it to you.. and then does not send you what they promised... I call that stealing. 

     

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Excalaber2Excalaber2 Member UncommonPosts: 360

    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    Originally posted by jimmydatwin

    I strongly disagree with people who says these people paying and not playing are "supporting the release of crappy games".  I believe these people are supporting the release of original games.  So a new company came out with a game that wasn't a WoW clone and tried something new that has yet to come together (granted it may never). 

    The people who are paying and not playing are actually helping the MMO industry evolve and showing developers its ok to take risks if you have a vision that the public supports (even if it is a small few that some feel is a cult..)   If you don't believe in the developer or the idea, fine don't support it(and if no one does then it wil eventually die).  If your unsure how it is going to turn out (like me) then hold off and see what happens. 

    I'm not saying that MO is the next big thing or the game that changes everything.  I'm not even saying it will succeed or even deserves to succeed, but these people believe in what SV is trying to accomplish and want to see it succeed.  They would rather pay $15(a cheap meal) per month to support the cause and not see this game(their dream MMO) die.  I mean in all honesty can anyone name any other MMO coming out in the next year that hopes to acheive the same thing as MO.

    And the end of the day I actually thank the supporters of MO with active supscriptions, because if it does come through with what it was originally intended to be: then it will be one hell of a game.

     You are certainly entitled to your opinion.  mine is quite different.

     

    I believe that we, as a community have accepted shovelware for so long that it is now becoming standard practice. I see developers looking at their predecessors and seeling what they got away with when shipping a game, and then taking it down another notch.  As evidence I will point to this years MMORPG.COM vote for NEW GAME OF THE YEAR.  The thread discussion makes it quite evident that the community is reaching a turning point.   I have a strong suspicion that NONE OF THE ABOVE will end up the winner.  Hopefully it will send a message to deveopers that the community at large is tired of having to chose between game with good concepts and poor implementation, and games with crappy concepts but good implementation. The worldwide videogame and interactive entertainment industry revenue  topped $57 BILLION in 2009 ( http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/industry-revenue-57-billion-in-2009-says-dfc ). Just looking at US videogame and computer games it was still $20 BILLION ( http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=26708 ). When there is that much money being pumped into an industry, we shouldn't have to choose between bad games.  For comparison.. the total US boxoffice revenue for 2009 was about $10.5 billion (http://boxofficemojo.com/yearly/).  We wouldn't expect to go to a movie that didn't have it's ending complete.. was missing half the special effects... switched actors partway through.. and would randomly shut down for 12 hours in the middle of a show.  You know.. I absolutely love fantasy movies, but there is a huge difference between the LOTR movies and The Dungeons and Dragons movie ( http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-New-Line-Platinum/dp/B00003CXQM/ref=cm_lmf_tit_3 ).  IMHO The LOTR movies helped the genre gain respectability and opened the door for things like the upcoming Game of Thrones series on HBO.  The poorly produced Dungeons and Dragons movie didn't help the genre in any way shape or form and actually was a waste of a great license.  So movies, just like game.. need both a great concept AND great execution.

     

    No.. instead of "supporting the cause" by pumping money into shovelware, we should hold our portion of the $57,000,000,000 until they deliver something worthwhile.  I truely do believe that companies are starting to take note. RIFT is making it's polish on release a HUGE part of it's marketing.  Will the game be fun?  No idea... but it's nice to see a company actually try to RAISE the bar for a change instead of seeing how low they can take it.   If they couple it with fun gameplay... I will purchase the game as a consumer.. to enjoy the product.  If they don't couple it with good gameplay (or don't deliver on their promised polish) I will not purchase the game.  That's the distinction between being a consumer and being a "supporter".

     

    Those are my throughts in general.  In specific, speaking about Starvault I will simply say that any company that STILL has not delivered the promised DVDs to their customers 6 MONTHS after launch of the game does not deserve any support whatsoever.  When a company states they will do something... sells it to you.. and then does not send you what they promised... I call that stealing. 

     

     

    Wow, I think this was very well written and I agree with all of it! (Though, I didn't get to play RIFT...only downloaded it to find I was an hour or so late ;)  )

    Disclaimer: This is not a troll post and is not here to promote any negative energy. Although this may be a criticism, it is not meant to offend anyone. If a moderator feels the post is inappropriate, please remove it immediately before it is subject to consideration for a warning. Thank you.

  • HanoverZHanoverZ Member Posts: 1,239

    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

     You are certainly entitled to your opinion.  mine is quite different.

     

    I believe that we, as a community have accepted shovelware for so long that it is now becoming standard practice. I see developers looking at their predecessors and seeling what they got away with when shipping a game, and then taking it down another notch.  As evidence I will point to this years MMORPG.COM vote for NEW GAME OF THE YEAR.  The thread discussion makes it quite evident that the community is reaching a turning point.   I have a strong suspicion that NONE OF THE ABOVE will end up the winner.  Hopefully it will send a message to deveopers that the community at large is tired of having to chose between game with good concepts and poor implementation, and games with crappy concepts but good implementation. The worldwide videogame and interactive entertainment industry revenue  topped $57 BILLION in 2009 ( http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/industry-revenue-57-billion-in-2009-says-dfc ). Just looking at US videogame and computer games it was still $20 BILLION ( http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=26708 ). When there is that much money being pumped into an industry, we shouldn't have to choose between bad games.  For comparison.. the total US boxoffice revenue for 2009 was about $10.5 billion (http://boxofficemojo.com/yearly/).  We wouldn't expect to go to a movie that didn't have it's ending complete.. was missing half the special effects... switched actors partway through.. and would randomly shut down for 12 hours in the middle of a show.  You know.. I absolutely love fantasy movies, but there is a huge difference between the LOTR movies and The Dungeons and Dragons movie ( http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-New-Line-Platinum/dp/B00003CXQM/ref=cm_lmf_tit_3 ).  IMHO The LOTR movies helped the genre gain respectability and opened the door for things like the upcoming Game of Thrones series on HBO.  The poorly produced Dungeons and Dragons movie didn't help the genre in any way shape or form and actually was a waste of a great license.  So movies, just like game.. need both a great concept AND great execution.

     

    No.. instead of "supporting the cause" by pumping money into shovelware, we should hold our portion of the $57,000,000,000 until they deliver something worthwhile.  I truely do believe that companies are starting to take note. RIFT is making it's polish on release a HUGE part of it's marketing.  Will the game be fun?  No idea... but it's nice to see a company actually try to RAISE the bar for a change instead of seeing how low they can take it.   If they couple it with fun gameplay... I will purchase the game as a consumer.. to enjoy the product.  If they don't couple it with good gameplay (or don't deliver on their promised polish) I will not purchase the game.  That's the distinction between being a consumer and being a "supporter".

     

    Those are my throughts in general.  In specific, speaking about Starvault I will simply say that any company that STILL has not delivered the promised DVDs to their customers 6 MONTHS after launch of the game does not deserve any support whatsoever.  When a company states they will do something... sells it to you.. and then does not send you what they promised... I call that stealing. 

     

    This should be a petition... well stated Slap

     

     

    /signed

  • raff01raff01 Member Posts: 453

    Indeed, imagine, people will think, hey let's make this or that game ! I got a great original concept, yes I don't have the skill nor the experience to transition it into a good game but there's always gonna be enough nerds to waste their money on it even if they"re not playing, so why care?

     

    No, we need to make an example of MO. Henrik needs to be punished for making such a pile of crap and make people pay so much for it even pay for a beta which in fact is an alpha then make people pay for a release that's in fact barely a beta !

    The MMO industry needs to know you can't just walk in there with nice ideas and a server and expect people to pay for whatever will come out of it.

  • jimmydatwinjimmydatwin Member UncommonPosts: 68

    Originally posted by raff01

    Indeed, imagine, people will think, hey let's make this or that game ! I got a great original concept, yes I don't have the skill nor the experience to transition it into a good game but there's always gonna be enough nerds to waste their money on it even if they"re not playing, so why care?

     

    No, we need to make an example of MO. Henrik needs to be punished for making such a pile of crap and make people pay so much for it even pay for a beta which in fact is an alpha then make people pay for a release that's in fact barely a beta !

    The MMO industry needs to know you can't just walk in there with nice ideas and a server and expect people to pay for whatever will come out of it.

    Slap I personally agree with almost everything you said and that is why I don't play MO myself. 

    The above post is one man's opinion speaking as if everyone else in the world agrees with him.  Lots do, but not everyone.  What should we do?  Hunt down those who disagree, throw them in jail, cancel their credit cards and force MO to fail, thus appropriatley punishing Henrik?

    No, let people support what they wish to support.  It's good for the industry.  If MO becomes a great game because of a few loyal supporters then we have another good game to play.  If it fails miserably then I haven't lost a penny personally so what do I care.  

    My personaly opinion on anyone who pre order's a MMO and hypes it up to be the next big thing.....what was that B-T  Barnum quote again?  Come on guys.  Name one MMO that has had a release to be celebrated?  Vanguard, EQ2, Age of Conan, FFIV, Darkfall, DDO..... With the exception of maybe FFIV all these games got it together in the end and FF is already moving toward getting it in the right direction.  What do they say "the first step is admitting you have a problem".  I mean if WoW where to rerelease the original game now they would hear about it too.  We just expect more now.

    I don't agree with SV's business decision's and I personally consider them shady, but if you believe in something then you are entitled to support it.  I don't go to church, but I don't disagree with people putting money in the tray when it is passed around.  It's not my money.

    No one is forcing anyone to pay for anything they don't want to.  If you preorderred and didn't get what you where promised, talk to your C/C company and have the charge reversed, they are good like that. 

    As to paying and not playing....Rich people buy islands, boats and vacation houses that they don't use often if it all.  Some people just have money to waste.  Not me though, I'll do my research and decide what to spend my money on.  Even if I never make the release party.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,561

    Originally posted by jimmydatwin

     

      It's good for the industry.

     

    This is the part I disagree with.   People CAN certainly support SV.. or any other thing they want.  IMHO though.. it HURTS the industry if a company can expect to succeed by launching (by their own plan) an incomplete and buggy product that they haven't even shipped the promised DVDs for.. 6 months after release.  IMHO... that sets a TERRIBLE precedent for others to follow.  As I said.. it's time to start rewarding companies that raise the bar and letting those who can't reach that bar sink.  That's my opinion though... I can think that you are causing harm to the community.. but at no point do I ever say, nor imply that we should punish those who want to do things like subscribe to a bad game they don't play.  It's their money.  They could burn it if they like.   I simply feel that doing so HARMS the industry as it just moves the bar lower for the next company. 

    Note.. I am not saying "I'm right and you are wrong" as some universal fact.  I understand the point you are trying to make, but I strongly disagree with it.  I have presented my argument as to why I BELIEVE you are wrong though and why I personally feel that only those companies that produce a good concept AND good delivery of that concept are worth my patronage as a consumer.  Again.. the videogames and interactive entertainment industry produced worldwide revenues over $50,000,000,000 in 2009.  As long as we are throwing money around willy-nilly there is no incentive for companies to out-do each other qualitywise.  Instead it's a race to the bottom.  I am really hoping that TRION delivers what they claim (or some other company picks up the rallying cry) and that it can start to reverse this industrywide trend. 

     

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • jimmydatwinjimmydatwin Member UncommonPosts: 68

    Ah Slap you must be Canadian.   A good attitude and a name like slapshot...lol.  I agree with you on the fact that companies need to be held accountable, all I am saying is if everyone dropped out at a premature release then we would be without most of the top games currently out:  EQ2, AoC, DDO, Darkfall , VG etc. I would say a good chunk of the money spent on MMO's last year would be from that list.   None of which would have made it past a gaming community that held them accountable for a bad release.

    There is nothing I wish more than being able to Preorder a MMO and get excited about it, but currently that is not a smart option.  One day I hope it will be.  However if other people want to pay to develop games that are in a Beta state, I think it does help the industry.  The games may get good at which point I will gladly play them.  Also I think that most of the games above have been punished by their release and will never reach their full potential due to bad releases.  I mean just imagine any of those game releasing in their current state, they would definately grow much bigger than they have.

    Alot of people when they get burned don't go back to games.  Myself I wait, don't get burned and play what becomes a good game.  Bottom line for me is I don't see how a cancelled game can help the industry.  If it gets fixed and becomes a good game then it helps the industry.  The developers end up paying later with a smaller subscriber base as some gamers will never forgive a bad release.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,561

    I am actually enjoying the discussion... proving that two people can actually have different opinions but still respect each other. (But no.. I'm not Canadian)

     

    Believe me.. I understand your argument.  I just don't agree with your conclusion.  To me... if we didn't continue to accept shovelware companies would not have shipped the games you listed in the poor condition that they launched with!  In any other industry it would be unacceptable and consumers would freak out at such a practice.  This market's revenue DWARFS that of the movie industry!    I think if we started to hold this industry to the same standards that we hold other industries.. all those game you listed would have been launched in a more complete and enjoyable state! 

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • funkmastaDfunkmastaD Member UncommonPosts: 647

    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    I am actually enjoying the discussion... proving that two people can actually have different opinions but still respect each other. (But no.. I'm not Canadian)

     

    Believe me.. I understand your argument.  I just don't agree with your conclusion.  To me... if we didn't continue to accept shovelware companies would not have shipped the games you listed in the poor condition that they launched with!  In any other industry it would be unacceptable and consumers would freak out at such a practice.  This market's revenue DWARFS that of the movie industry!    I think if we started to hold this industry to the same standards that we hold other industries.. all those game you listed would have been launched in a more complete and enjoyable state! 

    You seem to think that no one enjoys playing MO, and that no one thinks it's worth the money... there's a few people that disagree.  Underneath all the over-the-top diplomatic language, you still think you can ascribe objective value to a video game, and then have the chutzpah to tell others what to do with their money.

    The movie industry is an apt analogy; there's a lot of people that would prefer a movie with an original storyline and refreshing approach, regardless of less-than-Hollywood production value. 

    For myself, I'll put my money where my mouth is and pay for a game that I like... if you think people like me are ruining the game industry by making them lazy, that's your problem.   To be honest, I can think of about 5 industries that have more severe QA problems than any video game (have you tried flying anywhere recently?).  Thinking that if we just whine enough and refuse ourselves the enjoyment we get from playing games (buggy or not) we can change the industry seems hopelessly idealistic to me.  I understand the importance of 'speaking with your wallet', which is, I guess, exactly what I did when I bought MO...  it's frankly the only MMO I want to play.    You're just trying to bend the game industry to your will, which, again, is hopeless... especially if you just keep attacking the same companies that have the balls to try to make a game without putting "mass-market appeal" in every page of it's design doc. 

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,561

    Originally posted by funkmastaD

    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    I am actually enjoying the discussion... proving that two people can actually have different opinions but still respect each other. (But no.. I'm not Canadian)

     

    Believe me.. I understand your argument.  I just don't agree with your conclusion.  To me... if we didn't continue to accept shovelware companies would not have shipped the games you listed in the poor condition that they launched with!  In any other industry it would be unacceptable and consumers would freak out at such a practice.  This market's revenue DWARFS that of the movie industry!    I think if we started to hold this industry to the same standards that we hold other industries.. all those game you listed would have been launched in a more complete and enjoyable state! 

    You seem to think that no one enjoys playing MO, and that no one thinks it's worth the money... there's a few people that disagree.  Underneath all the over-the-top diplomatic language, you still think you can ascribe objective value to a video game, and then have the chutzpah to tell others what to do with their money.

    The movie industry is an apt analogy; there's a lot of people that would prefer a movie with an original storyline and refreshing approach, regardless of less-than-Hollywood production value. 

    For myself, I'll put my money where my mouth is and pay for a game that I like... if you think people like me are ruining the game industry by making them lazy, that's your problem.   To be honest, I can think of about 5 industries that have more severe QA problems than any video game (have you tried flying anywhere recently?).  Thinking that if we just whine enough and refuse ourselves the enjoyment we get from playing games (buggy or not) we can change the industry seems hopelessly idealistic to me.  I understand the importance of 'speaking with your wallet', which is, I guess, exactly what I did when I bought MO...  it's frankly the only MMO I want to play.    You're just trying to bend the game industry to your will, which, again, is hopeless... especially if you just keep attacking the same companies that have the balls to try to make a game without putting "mass-market appeal" in every page of it's design doc. 

     I think, perhaps... you should reread my posts in this thread as I do not believe your response is appropriate in tone.. nor content. As for your analogy... not only would the movie in question have to have an original approach... it would also have to have an incomplete ending, stop for hours while they fixed the projector, change actors in mid-film and be shown missing half the special effects.  THAT is the correct analogy.  My issue, if you read what I post.. is that we seem to have taken as fact the assumption that we have to CHOOSE between quality concept and quality execution.  I beg to differ..  I believe it's time that the consumers of a $57,000,000,000 industry start to expect BOTH.

     

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • funkmastaDfunkmastaD Member UncommonPosts: 647

    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    Originally posted by funkmastaD


    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    I am actually enjoying the discussion... proving that two people can actually have different opinions but still respect each other. (But no.. I'm not Canadian)

     

    Believe me.. I understand your argument.  I just don't agree with your conclusion.  To me... if we didn't continue to accept shovelware companies would not have shipped the games you listed in the poor condition that they launched with!  In any other industry it would be unacceptable and consumers would freak out at such a practice.  This market's revenue DWARFS that of the movie industry!    I think if we started to hold this industry to the same standards that we hold other industries.. all those game you listed would have been launched in a more complete and enjoyable state! 

    You seem to think that no one enjoys playing MO, and that no one thinks it's worth the money... there's a few people that disagree.  Underneath all the over-the-top diplomatic language, you still think you can ascribe objective value to a video game, and then have the chutzpah to tell others what to do with their money.

    The movie industry is an apt analogy; there's a lot of people that would prefer a movie with an original storyline and refreshing approach, regardless of less-than-Hollywood production value. 

    For myself, I'll put my money where my mouth is and pay for a game that I like... if you think people like me are ruining the game industry by making them lazy, that's your problem.   To be honest, I can think of about 5 industries that have more severe QA problems than any video game (have you tried flying anywhere recently?).  Thinking that if we just whine enough and refuse ourselves the enjoyment we get from playing games (buggy or not) we can change the industry seems hopelessly idealistic to me.  I understand the importance of 'speaking with your wallet', which is, I guess, exactly what I did when I bought MO...  it's frankly the only MMO I want to play.    You're just trying to bend the game industry to your will, which, again, is hopeless... especially if you just keep attacking the same companies that have the balls to try to make a game without putting "mass-market appeal" in every page of it's design doc. 

     I think, perhaps... you should reread my posts in this thread as I do not believe your response is appropriate in tone.. nor content. As for your analogy... not only would the movie in question have to have an original approach... it would also have to have an incomplete ending, stop for hours while they fixed the projector, change actors in mid-film and be shown missing half the special effects.  THAT is the correct analogy.  My issue, if you read what I post.. is that we seem to have taken as fact the assumption that we have to CHOOSE between quality concept and quality execution.  I beg to differ..  I believe it's time that the consumers of a $57,000,000,000 industry start to expect BOTH.

     

     

    Good luck waiting for that.  I'll be busy playing games.

     

    Now I should apologize If I seem glib... I've just been in enough "pragmatist vs. idealist" debates to know that resolution is hopeless.  

  • osmundaosmunda Member Posts: 1,087

    Originally posted by funkmastaD

    Good luck waiting for that.  I'll be busy playing games.

     Now I should apologize If I seem glib... I've just been in enough "pragmatist vs. idealist" debates to know that resolution is hopeless.  

    QFT

     


    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    Originally posted by jimmydatwin

     

      It's good for the industry.

     

    This is the part I disagree with.   People CAN certainly support SV.. or any other thing they want.  IMHO though.. it HURTS the industry if a company can expect to succeed by launching (by their own plan) an incomplete and buggy product that they haven't even shipped the promised DVDs for.. 6 months after release.  IMHO... that sets a TERRIBLE precedent for others to follow.  As I said.. it's time to start rewarding companies that raise the bar and letting those who can't reach that bar sink.  That's my opinion though... I can think that you are causing harm to the community.. but at no point do I ever say, nor imply that we should punish those who want to do things like subscribe to a bad game they don't play.  It's their money.  They could burn it if they like.   I simply feel that doing so HARMS the industry as it just moves the bar lower for the next company. 

    Note.. I am not saying "I'm right and you are wrong" as some universal fact.  I understand the point you are trying to make, but I strongly disagree with it.  I have presented my argument as to why I BELIEVE you are wrong though and why I personally feel that only those companies that produce a good concept AND good delivery of that concept are worth my patronage as a consumer.  Again.. the videogames and interactive entertainment industry produced worldwide revenues over $50,000,000,000 in 2009.  As long as we are throwing money around willy-nilly there is no incentive for companies to out-do each other qualitywise.  Instead it's a race to the bottom.  I am really hoping that TRION delivers what they claim (or some other company picks up the rallying cry) and that it can start to reverse this industrywide trend. 

     it HURTS the industry if a company can expect to succeed by launching (by their own plan) an incomplete and buggy product. that sets a TERRIBLE precedent for others to follow.  From other threads, it's clear that it would be hard to consider MO a huge financial success http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/296709/Starvault-3Q-report-1142010.html and if I remember correctly Denny Lindberg described the pay as lousy. Ultimately, the precedent they are setting is that if you spend 2 years working at an independent company, getting paid less than the average for someone with you education, and you manage to actually keep the project going until it is actually released, you may end up working for relatively low wages continuing the development of a game you love.      

    Also,it's not as if there is some shortage of games that have failed, http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/show/dead or games that have gone into development, never to see the light of day (UO2, Gods and Heroes, the original STO, Stargate)

     I truely do believe that companies are starting to take note. RIFT is making it's polish on release a HUGE part of it's marketing.

    http://aoc.lotrmmorpg.com/news/headlines/206338482.php   " Funcom announces a new release date for Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures.  The highly anticipated MMO receives 8 more weeks of development, allowing Funcom to deliver a more polished MMO experience when the game launches on the 20th of May 2008."

    Polish is hardly a new concept.  Developers work on the game until the feel it is ready, or they feel they have to release the game (financially, hype level, avoiding release at the same time as a major competitor, whatever)

    You argue that the development of games that don't "reach the bar" harms the MMO community at large in some way and that the way to fix that is for those games to close. I would argue that even those allow people to see what does and does not work in a game and allow people to keep working in gaming rather than getting a job programming banking software or something more practical.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markus_Persson

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,561

    Originally posted by osmunda

    Originally posted by funkmastaD

    Good luck waiting for that.  I'll be busy playing games.

     Now I should apologize If I seem glib... I've just been in enough "pragmatist vs. idealist" debates to know that resolution is hopeless.  

    QFT

     


    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    Originally posted by jimmydatwin

     

      It's good for the industry.

     

    This is the part I disagree with.   People CAN certainly support SV.. or any other thing they want.  IMHO though.. it HURTS the industry if a company can expect to succeed by launching (by their own plan) an incomplete and buggy product that they haven't even shipped the promised DVDs for.. 6 months after release.  IMHO... that sets a TERRIBLE precedent for others to follow.  As I said.. it's time to start rewarding companies that raise the bar and letting those who can't reach that bar sink.  That's my opinion though... I can think that you are causing harm to the community.. but at no point do I ever say, nor imply that we should punish those who want to do things like subscribe to a bad game they don't play.  It's their money.  They could burn it if they like.   I simply feel that doing so HARMS the industry as it just moves the bar lower for the next company. 

    Note.. I am not saying "I'm right and you are wrong" as some universal fact.  I understand the point you are trying to make, but I strongly disagree with it.  I have presented my argument as to why I BELIEVE you are wrong though and why I personally feel that only those companies that produce a good concept AND good delivery of that concept are worth my patronage as a consumer.  Again.. the videogames and interactive entertainment industry produced worldwide revenues over $50,000,000,000 in 2009.  As long as we are throwing money around willy-nilly there is no incentive for companies to out-do each other qualitywise.  Instead it's a race to the bottom.  I am really hoping that TRION delivers what they claim (or some other company picks up the rallying cry) and that it can start to reverse this industrywide trend. 

     it HURTS the industry if a company can expect to succeed by launching (by their own plan) an incomplete and buggy product. that sets a TERRIBLE precedent for others to follow.  From other threads, it's clear that it would be hard to consider MO a huge financial success http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/296709/Starvault-3Q-report-1142010.html and if I remember correctly Denny Lindberg described the pay as lousy. Ultimately, the precedent they are setting is that if you spend 2 years working at an independent company, getting paid less than the average for someone with you education, and you manage to actually keep the project going until it is actually released, you may end up working for relatively low wages continuing the development of a game you love.      

    Also,it's not as if there is some shortage of games that have failed, http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/show/dead or games that have gone into development, never to see the light of day (UO2, Gods and Heroes, the original STO, Stargate)

     I truely do believe that companies are starting to take note. RIFT is making it's polish on release a HUGE part of it's marketing.

    http://aoc.lotrmmorpg.com/news/headlines/206338482.php   " Funcom announces a new release date for Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures.  The highly anticipated MMO receives 8 more weeks of development, allowing Funcom to deliver a more polished MMO experience when the game launches on the 20th of May 2008."

    Polish is hardly a new concept.  Developers work on the game until the feel it is ready, or they feel they have to release the game (financially, hype level, avoiding release at the same time as a major competitor, whatever)

    You argue that the development of games that don't "reach the bar" harms the MMO community at large in some way and that the way to fix that is for those games to close. I would argue that even those allow people to see what does and does not work in a game and allow people to keep working in gaming rather than getting a job programming banking software or something more practical.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markus_Persson

     @ Osmunda.. my exchange with Jimmy was created around his original statement: The people who are paying and not playing are actually helping the MMO industry evolve and showing developers its ok to take risks if you have a vision that the public supports (even if it is a small few that some feel is a cult..) Those doing so are admitting that the product is subpar and not worth actually playing (in it's current state). When an industry thinks it's OK for such a product to launch... that IMHO represents a problem with our expectations.

     

    As for your Funcom analogy?  Wow.. that one actually supports MY contention.  Even after the "8 more weeks" of development the game launched in poor condition.   Here is a great line from the MMORPG.COM review:

    Ultimately, Age of Conan has a mountain of potential, and while the same can be said of many other MMORPG also-rans, Funcom does have experience in righting the ship and building a successful product following a less-than-stellar launch.

    AoC was incomplete when it launched.  I played it... the lower levels were OK, but as you leveled you could clearly see that the game was unfinished (PVP mechanics.. LOL bad).  It was also plagued by "dupes, bugs and exploits" that "skewed the playing field". 

    Again... the amount of money generated in ths US alone is double the revenue generated by the movie industry.  It is simply spread between far too many poor offerings.  I for one no longer want to be forced to chose between a good game concept and a good game functionality.   Just like when I go to the movies.. I want the second part to become the norm.  Then, the only choice will be whether or not I like the concept the game is designed around.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • NeoptolemusNeoptolemus Member Posts: 242

    My problem with SV isn't that they're a low-budget indie team with a niche idea. I encourage development in that area and I applaud those that support it. After all, the big mainstream companies all started off somewhere and the monopolisation of the market stifles creativity.

     

     

    What bothers me about them is that they were happy to take people's money in exchange for a product that they must have known they couldn't deliver. They are charging premium prices for a subpar product and they try to mask this behind grandiose promises for the future. The "Epic patch" which was supposed to bring "MO 2" and fix the AI came and went and the mobs still have major issues. They must have known it wasnt going to revolutionise much and yet they said it anyway.

     

    Unless they truly are deluded, they must have known that they couldn't deliver on their grand vision as development started and yet they happily charged everyone top price and continue to long after release. In giving them money, I don't believe you're supporting a unique vision and indie development, you are supporting people who take money with promises they can't fulfill, milking the fact that fans of the genre have few in the way of alternatives.

     

    There are some talented indie teams out there who can benefit from your support, SV isn't one of them.

  • osmundaosmunda Member Posts: 1,087

    @ slapshot:

    The AoC link was the result of a google search for "polish MMO release" and intended to point out that Rift pointing to it's polish as aselling point is really nothing new.  There's a very good chance that once it is released it will be in almost the exact situation as AoC. MMO developers have always had a polished bug free product as one of their goals, How close they come depends on what pushed them to release when they do and how well they can forsee problems that may not be apparent during beta.   As the saying goes “No battle plan survives contact with the enemy.” http://lexician.com/lexblog/2010/11/no-battle-plan-survives-contact-with-the-enemy/

    That link at the end was intended to point out that the experience of working on games that end up being  interesting but flawed (Wurm) can lead to products that are inspired (minecraft). Therefore supporting Wurm helped the gaming industry.

  • BetelBetel Member Posts: 365

    False causation.

     

    Paying for a failed game does not help future good games. Before it's even released other designers know the systems involved in a company's game. Is it level based, or skill point, seamless world or zones, non-consensual PvP or not, etc and they will have tried the beta.

     

    They do not need a horde of rubes paying people who have no talent or ability in designing MMO's once that game is released. Anything MO had to teach other companies was known in December last year, all they have done since then is be a model of how NOT to run an MMO.

  • QunitillianQunitillian Member Posts: 99

     






    Originally posted by Betel

    False causation.

     

    Paying for a failed game does not help future good games. Before it's even released other designers know the systems involved in a company's game. Is it level based, or skill point, seamless world or zones, non-consensual PvP or not, etc and they will have tried the beta.

     

    They do not need a horde of rubes paying people who have no talent or ability in designing MMO's once that game is released. Anything MO had to teach other companies was known in December last year, all they have done since then is be a model of how NOT to run an MMO.



     

    I personally believe that  maybe three people on the SV team do have talent. I think it is more the case of bad management TBH, that and incorrect choice in middle ware and middle ware vendor.

  • osmundaosmunda Member Posts: 1,087

    Originally posted by Betel

    False causation.

    Paying for a failed game does not help future good games. Before it's even released other designers know the systems involved in a company's game. Is it level based, or skill point, seamless world or zones, non-consensual PvP or not, etc and they will have tried the beta.

    They do not need a horde of rubes paying people who have no talent or ability in designing MMO's once that game is released. Anything MO had to teach other companies was known in December last year, all they have done since then is be a model of how NOT to run an MMO.

    False causation,

    The same logical fallacy can be said to apply to the idea that a paying for something that doesn't "reach the bar" makes other games worse. In what way did the presence of unfinished or buggy games make it more likely that other games will release without "reaching the bar". Unless you expect flawless games, how do you set "the bar"?  Currently, "the bar" is set by financial sustainability. If you truly believe that MO is too buggy and not fun, don't pay for it. Let other people decide that their own money.

    As to the one example I gave, if he hadn't cofounded Wurm do you think he would have ended up making Minecraft? 

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,561

    Originally posted by osmunda

    The same logical fallacy can be said to apply to the idea that a paying for something that doesn't "reach the bar" makes other games worse. In what way did the presence of unfinished or buggy games make it more likely that other games will release without "reaching the bar". 

     Because everytime a company launches a blatantly unfinished, buggy product.. but survive.. it gives the next developer an even lower bar to shoot for.   I simply have a different philosophy than you do.  I do not believe that poorly managed companies that produce shoddy releases should GET a second chance (or if they do.. it should be the exception and not the rule).  This is not in any way, shape or form limited to MO and Starvault.   Big name titles such as Star Trek Online.. FFX1V.. etc etc have all blatantly cut corners and shipped products that were should never have been released.  As long as it remains acceptable for companies to do this.. they will continue to do so.  

     

    IMHO Starvault is very similar to the vast majority of developers who recently released MMOs.  In my opinion.. they just took it to an even lower level then most.

     

    FYI.. MO was the last MMO that I have purchased (as far as I can recall) .. and that was June 2009 (and charged back in Dec or Jan for reasons previously explained).  I have simply reached my breaking point regarding the poor quality and/or lack of gameplay that new titles have been providing.  I refuse to have to chose between one or the other.  The one game that gives me hope is RIFT, but if they do not deliver on their promises.. they won';t be seeing me buy their game in the hopes that it will become what I want someday.  This is a $57,000,000,000 industry.. I don't think we should have to chose between the lesser of two evils.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

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