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Leveling too fast and not enough grind?

whilanwhilan Member UncommonPosts: 3,472

Been following this game for a while, though i'll admit i haven't been scrounging for every last bit of data so here it goes.

I'm going to be taking a bit of a different route with this, in a lot of the Kotor games you leveled via story, another words as you were doing the story you gained levels and by the time the story was over you were maxed level or near it.

Now i know a couple of things regarding levels. First off leveling was pretty fast in all the BW games i've played or at least seemed fast (course these are SPG not MMOs) and they are trying to lean towards the casual crowd (as thats where the money is at the moment) so my question becomes

 

Will the levels not really be relevant to the game at all and just something to give us skills?  or will our levels just stop till we past a test or whatever else?

 

Ironically i don't like grinding but i also don't like the levels just to fly by as then they mean nothing. So what your a level 20 BH, this guy in 2 days is level 80.  I guess i expect it to get harder and harder to level as you get better over time as the tension on one end grows bigger and bigger.

Just personally curious is all and hoping someone else might know more on this front.

Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.

Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.

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Comments

  • drake_hounddrake_hound Member Posts: 773

    Well i really cannot answer what you want ,only speculation on the game mechanics based on past mmo´s and what i seen so far on videos .

    So what far i see , is that stories are a must to get ships companions armour and weapon upgrades.

    That part alone is resctricted by time , since you are in pseudo instance .

    So yes what somebody does in 1 hour others might be doing in 20 min by just pressing ESC on the cinematic scenes

    And rushing trough it . (but remembers choices does bring certain rewards , so pressing esc is like skipping on it)

    Other side nothing prevents you from going out , and killing mobs that are around , hoping for drops .

    Levels are just giving us skill points , till we cap out and have to do a advance class story arc n(thats my presumption)

    Not like just level to 20 example and just pick your advance class .

    But again nobody really knows , and NDA prevents people from talking about especially the highend content ones .

     

  • BarakIIIBarakIII Member Posts: 800

    Not enough grind? Wow, I never thought somebody would be concerned about that. I'm sure they'll be plenty of grind, but it'll be in the midst of doing the story so it won't seem as grindy.

    There's simply too much unknown here, we don't even know how many levels the max level will be. Sorry, but I just don't think this can be answered yet.

    Max level in their single player rpgs were usually around level 30, but that doesn't really mean anything. If anybody answers I think it'll be pure guessing. They'd have to link developer quotes to prove otherwise for me to believe them. I would think they wouldn't want leveling to go too fast, but yet Bioware does have a rep of having fast leveling games. Sorry, I can't give a real answer.

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 11,896

    I like to think of the system to be less focused on grind and leveling and more focused on progression.  Even at max level your character won't stop their growth.  You'll still get new gear and armor,  but thats just the tip of the iceberg.  You'll have your alignment, so that will change your skills and the worlds perception of you.  You'll have your crafting system, diplomacy, etc.  You'll have NPC factions to learn about, exploration to do.  On top of all that you'll most likely still have a number of story elements that have to do with your companions and also part of your personal adventure.

     

    In most games, at max level your character growth stops and your gear growth persists.  You have no story to keep you going,  you have no reason to see whats on the other side of the mountain unless someone said theres a purple helmet over there.  You have no alignment choices to affect your powers or the way people see you.  You have no story elements to make you wonder just who is that sith that attacked you and then fled before you could kill him,  or large world changing arcs to bring the world of Taris back under republic control with the help of you and your wookie companion.

     

    In SWTOR you have these things that will carry your progression well past max level, including the gear growth many players have been accustomed to.



  • whilanwhilan Member UncommonPosts: 3,472

    Yeah i know it's a bit odd because it's against the trend of things. I never really saw the point of having 6M hp and getting hit for 300k. it kinda makes the damage pointless to me.

    Anyhow i put this out here to see if anyone has happened to come across this info because i haven't. If it's simply not out there i understand.  It's probably just me wanting more info and making sure i won't buzz through the game really quick, i don't want to be max level in a week or even a month, max level should be somewhere around the 6 to 1 year mark for me.

    MMOs are meant to be slow or at least were meant to be slow.  I don't want a really quick game.

    It's okay to have speculations on what you think. Maybe if theres a consensus on what people think, maybe we can get an idea that way?  Usually theres a reason people think one way or another and as this is a grey area, generally what most people think tends to tell which way the wind is blowing.

    Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.

    Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.

    image

  • Cik_AsalinCik_Asalin Member Posts: 3,033

    Originally posted by whilan

    ...they are trying to lean towards the casual crowd (as thats where the money is at the moment)...

    Generalities aside, "casual crowd" seems like more code for the welfare crowd, aka "accessibility".  It's not where the money is, nor is it an accurate portrayal of market make-up, as far as I'm concerned, unless I missed the memo or report.


    Originally posted by whilan

    Will the levels not really be relevant to the game at all and just something to give us skills?  or will our levels just stop till we past a test or whatever else?

    I hope levels and skills are relavent.  Even as a casual player, I appreciate being rewarded and being distinguished from my peers by being successful, or more successful. And as a result or my successful effort and output, more access to better things, rather than being given it for just standing in the soup-line.   I'm awefully embarrased if I'm rewarded and distinguished for sitting on the side-lines as a player in a game, yet recognized as a top or even contributing performer.


    Originally posted by whilan

    Ironically i don't like grinding but i also don't like the levels just to fly by as then they mean nothing. So what your a level 20 BH, this guy in 2 days is level 80.  I guess i expect it to get harder and harder to level as you get better over time as the tension on one end grows bigger and bigger.

    Just personally curious is all and hoping someone else might know more on this front.

    And it seems that this word grind has become the political correct way of justifying entitlements. . .justifying why the basketball net/rim, which is 10 foot in height from high-school to the pro's, should be lowered on one teams side to eight feet for accessibility. 

    I would expect levels and accomplishments to come a bit harder and harder too.  I would hope that with progress, comes more challenges to advance to a certain degree, not to the point that many are alienated, but with real recognizable accomplishment should come noticable skill gain and itemization rewards that arent accessible to effortless crowd.

  • RoosterNashRoosterNash Member Posts: 283

    Originally posted by Cik_Asalin

    Originally posted by whilan

    ...they are trying to lean towards the casual crowd (as thats where the money is at the moment)...

    Generalities aside, "casual crowd" seems like more code for the welfare crowd, aka "accessibility".  It's not where the money is, nor is it an accurate portrayal of market make-up, as far as I'm concerned, unless I missed the memo or report.


    Originally posted by whilan

    Will the levels not really be relevant to the game at all and just something to give us skills?  or will our levels just stop till we past a test or whatever else?

    I hope levels and skills are relavent.  Even as a casual player, I appreciate being rewarded and being distinguished from my peers by being successful, or more successful. And as a result or my successful effort and output, more access to better things, rather than being given it for just standing in the soup-line.   I'm awefully embarrased if I'm rewarded and distinguished for sitting on the side-lines as a player in a game, yet recognized as a top or even contributing performer.


    Originally posted by whilan



    Ironically i don't like grinding but i also don't like the levels just to fly by as then they mean nothing. So what your a level 20 BH, this guy in 2 days is level 80.  I guess i expect it to get harder and harder to level as you get better over time as the tension on one end grows bigger and bigger.

    Just personally curious is all and hoping someone else might know more on this front.

    And it seems that this word grind has become the political correct way of justifying entitlements. . .justifying why the basketball net/rim, which is 10 foot in height from high-school to the pro's, should be lowered on one teams side to eight feet for accessibility. 

    I would expect levels and accomplishments to come a bit harder and harder too.  I would hope that with progress, comes more challenges to advance to a certain degree, not to the point that many are alienated, but with real recognizable accomplishment should come noticable skill gain and itemization rewards that arent accessible to effortless crowd.

    Actually, though I hate to say it, marketing an MMO of this size toward the casual crowd would be a good idea. However, the ability to market to both casual and hardcore, and even Star Wars fans, would be the best choice.

    THE Rooster Nash

  • RoosterNashRoosterNash Member Posts: 283

    I lol'd at the "not enough grind?" headline! I hope the leveling is generally quick, not too (CoH) slow, though I would be content with the ability to eventually cap  a toon in two months tops.

    THE Rooster Nash

  • KabaalKabaal Member UncommonPosts: 3,042

    Originally posted by RoosterNash

    I lol'd at the "not enough grind?" headline! I hope the leveling is generally quick, not too (CoH) slow, though I would be content with the ability to eventually cap  a toon in two months tops.

    CoH is a game with one of the fastest leveling curves out there. I do agree with the sentiment though.

  • Zookz1Zookz1 Member Posts: 629

    What do you mean not enough grind? I hate grinding :P

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431

    We will find out a lot more info on level 1 through 10 or the starter planets in Dec. A good number of media played for 6 to 8 hours earlier this month in Europe. A Podcast talked about 1 of the media determined to make it to level to to craft his lightsaber. He had to not take any breaks at all and play for 8 hours streight to make it to level 10. And as we all know in MMO's. The higher your level, the longer the leveling time with more XP needed per level. So 8 hours to level 10 and speculation says the cap will be 50. There could be a lot of time needed to get to level cap.

    The dev's have said many times that there will be around 200 hours with just the class story arc. Enough to take you to level cap. But they also said that the class story arc is about 15% of the content in the game. I would think tha means only the 200, not the 200 unique hours of each class. That is 1600 hours for a run through of each class. If that was 15%, there would be so much content that we could never play it all. So I would think that 200 hours is 15% of the total content at launch.

    The next few months will be interesting for TOR. Next month will be reviews of the first 10 levels. Then we should start to see higher level content info. Then open beta probably by Feb if they are on track.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • drake_hounddrake_hound Member Posts: 773

    Well at this point i am stuck in getting more information about the product .

    Cause either i have to again opt in for the beta (but then NDA forces me to not post anything anymore)

    So either way its just wait and see game , sadly we have to ask them to release information about high end content.

    But currently nothing is known aside from level 1-10 already takes around 2 gamedays .

    A lightsaber quest took hardcore gamer 6 hours (since you need a lightsaber as jedi)

    So we dont know what the estimate game time is to hit X level (x is the level limit)

     

    Anyway high end content is ready , but aside from ING review where they were playing high end content .

    Nobody else in the beta (so far info leaked) is talking about it .

    So basically this beta is so tight lipped , i am happy for once that maybe it will be really a beta .

    Unlike other products where people just laugh at the NDA .

  • Cik_AsalinCik_Asalin Member Posts: 3,033

    Originally posted by RoosterNash

    Originally posted by Cik_Asalin


    Originally posted by whilan

    ...they are trying to lean towards the casual crowd (as thats where the money is at the moment)...

    Generalities aside, "casual crowd" seems like more code for the welfare crowd, aka "accessibility".  It's not where the money is, nor is it an accurate portrayal of market make-up, as far as I'm concerned, unless I missed the memo or report.


    Originally posted by whilan

    Will the levels not really be relevant to the game at all and just something to give us skills?  or will our levels just stop till we past a test or whatever else?

    I hope levels and skills are relavent.  Even as a casual player, I appreciate being rewarded and being distinguished from my peers by being successful, or more successful. And as a result or my successful effort and output, more access to better things, rather than being given it for just standing in the soup-line.   I'm awefully embarrased if I'm rewarded and distinguished for sitting on the side-lines as a player in a game, yet recognized as a top or even contributing performer.


    Originally posted by whilan



    Ironically i don't like grinding but i also don't like the levels just to fly by as then they mean nothing. So what your a level 20 BH, this guy in 2 days is level 80.  I guess i expect it to get harder and harder to level as you get better over time as the tension on one end grows bigger and bigger.

    Just personally curious is all and hoping someone else might know more on this front.

    And it seems that this word grind has become the political correct way of justifying entitlements. . .justifying why the basketball net/rim, which is 10 foot in height from high-school to the pro's, should be lowered on one teams side to eight feet for accessibility. 

    I would expect levels and accomplishments to come a bit harder and harder too.  I would hope that with progress, comes more challenges to advance to a certain degree, not to the point that many are alienated, but with real recognizable accomplishment should come noticable skill gain and itemization rewards that arent accessible to effortless crowd.

    Actually, though I hate to say it, marketing an MMO of this size toward the casual crowd would be a good idea. However, the ability to market to both casual and hardcore, and even Star Wars fans, would be the best choice.

    I completely agree, really.  Im not a hardcore fan, but I am furthest from the entitlement mentality.  Im hoping for a mix that engages both, but caters to neither.

  • RoosterNashRoosterNash Member Posts: 283

    Originally posted by Kabaal

    Originally posted by RoosterNash

    I lol'd at the "not enough grind?" headline! I hope the leveling is generally quick, not too (CoH) slow, though I would be content with the ability to eventually cap  a toon in two months tops.

    CoH is a game with one of the fastest leveling curves out there. I do agree with the sentiment though.

    Oh, well I haven't played CoH since it released, which, back then, it WAS the longest ever. I'm glad they nerfed that.

    THE Rooster Nash

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

    I wouldn't say grind, but indeed I too have this fear that there is prolly not so much content as they think. I have this nagging feeling BW makes a HUGE miscalculation how long it will take for people to get to max level. If people rush to max level in a week, then make 2-3 max level chars in a month... and then what?

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • keithiankeithian Member UncommonPosts: 3,187
    Originally posted by Elikal

    I wouldn't say grind, but indeed I too have this fear that there is prolly not so much content as they think. I have this nagging feeling BW makes a HUGE miscalculation how long it will take for people to get to max level. If people rush to max level in a week, then make 2-3 max level chars in a month... and then what?

     

    Excellent post. This nagging fear is based on what? Your closed beta play experience? Comon, show us some video of the gaps or proof behind your fast leveling theory. Show us those secret videos lol.

    There Is Always Hope!

  • kegtapkegtap Member Posts: 261

    Bioware has stated TOR would be KOTOR 3-5 I just hope thats per class and not all the classes as content.

    I can feel your anger. This game is defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike this game down with all of your hatred, and your journey towards towards the Dark Side will be complete.

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Member UncommonPosts: 2,662

    Originally posted by whilan

    Been following this game for a while, though i'll admit i haven't been scrounging for every last bit of data so here it goes.

    I'm going to be taking a bit of a different route with this, in a lot of the Kotor games you leveled via story, another words as you were doing the story you gained levels and by the time the story was over you were maxed level or near it.

    Now i know a couple of things regarding levels. First off leveling was pretty fast in all the BW games i've played or at least seemed fast (course these are SPG not MMOs) and they are trying to lean towards the casual crowd (as thats where the money is at the moment) so my question becomes

     

    Will the levels not really be relevant to the game at all and just something to give us skills?  or will our levels just stop till we past a test or whatever else?

     

    Ironically i don't like grinding but i also don't like the levels just to fly by as then they mean nothing. So what your a level 20 BH, this guy in 2 days is level 80.  I guess i expect it to get harder and harder to level as you get better over time as the tension on one end grows bigger and bigger.

    Just personally curious is all and hoping someone else might know more on this front.

    Racing to max level and level grinding is so 90's! Developers have actually started making content to tackle after you reach max level now. Whether BW has the magic formula to keep max level players happy until it's first expansion is another beast to tame on another day though. We'll all have to wait and see.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • SabradinSabradin Member Posts: 772

    Originally posted by whilan

    Been following this game for a while, though i'll admit i haven't been scrounging for every last bit of data so here it goes.

    I'm going to be taking a bit of a different route with this, in a lot of the Kotor games you leveled via story, another words as you were doing the story you gained levels and by the time the story was over you were maxed level or near it.

    Now i know a couple of things regarding levels. First off leveling was pretty fast in all the BW games i've played or at least seemed fast (course these are SPG not MMOs) and they are trying to lean towards the casual crowd (as thats where the money is at the moment) so my question becomes

     

    Will the levels not really be relevant to the game at all and just something to give us skills?  or will our levels just stop till we past a test or whatever else?

     

    Ironically i don't like grinding but i also don't like the levels just to fly by as then they mean nothing. So what your a level 20 BH, this guy in 2 days is level 80.  I guess i expect it to get harder and harder to level as you get better over time as the tension on one end grows bigger and bigger.

    Just personally curious is all and hoping someone else might know more on this front.

    You would think that they'll at least be meaningful - your choices in the scenarios impact your 'life' so you have to think about whats going on and how it will impact you long-term.

    Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.

  • drake_hounddrake_hound Member Posts: 773

    Originally posted by Elikal

    I wouldn't say grind, but indeed I too have this fear that there is prolly not so much content as they think. I have this nagging feeling BW makes a HUGE miscalculation how long it will take for people to get to max level. If people rush to max level in a week, then make 2-3 max level chars in a month... and then what?

    100% true  thats why they are focusing on endgame content , but other side one beta tester founded new planets .

    While nagivating none excisting space lanes (dont ask me how , or maybe its a rumor) they taken it off the map right away .

    Before info  could be released , according to that rumor it was quite populated already with stuff .

     

    But i am more entitled to give you right about this fact , maybe there isn´t enough content for more month .

    Thats why they have to put the endgame in place .

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 24,851

    There is no such thing as "not enough grind".  If you're leveling too fast, that means that there isn't enough content.  BioWare seems to be insisting that there will be massive amounts of content, so that won't be a problem.

  • ktanner3ktanner3 Member UncommonPosts: 4,063

    I always get a kick out of those players who buy a game on the first day and then proceed to rush through it  to the end and then complain that it's boring and doesn't have enough in it. Well NO FRIGGIN &*?! sherlock. Of course it was boring for you. That's what happens when you rush through and don't take the time to digest what is happening. This a ROLE PLAYING GAME. 

    @ Whilan-I personally don't mind the leveling taking long so long as it's fun. 200 hours sounds about right and being that I don't game 4 + hours a day it shoudl be enough for me.

    Currently Playing: World of Warcraft

  • gamubigamubi Member Posts: 20

    I really hope the leveling is slow.  I've never understood why people hate grinding, theres a sense of accomplishment when you can out.  Seem's like now everyones in a hurry to get to end game, guess i'm too oldschool from the old EQ when it was tough as nails.  Sure it was painfull when you died for many reasons, but it made you play a completely differnet game.

    image

  • AnubisanAnubisan Member UncommonPosts: 1,798

    My understanding is that the game's cinematic content will make the leveling process feel as though it isn't even happening. We will be more focused on progressing through the story than we will about reaching level X. Peronally, I am very happy about this. After having leveled through so many other games, I find the classic MMORPG grind to be EXTREMELY boring and outdated.

  • GMan3GMan3 Member CommonPosts: 2,127

    Originally posted by RoosterNash

    Originally posted by Kabaal

    Originally posted by RoosterNash

    I lol'd at the "not enough grind?" headline! I hope the leveling is generally quick, not too (CoH) slow, though I would be content with the ability to eventually cap  a toon in two months tops.

    CoH is a game with one of the fastest leveling curves out there. I do agree with the sentiment though.

    Oh, well I haven't played CoH since it released, which, back then, it WAS the longest ever. I'm glad they nerfed that.

     As a long time player of CoH, I can tell you that they went from too long to get to the Level Cap to WAY TOO EASY to get to the Level Cap.  Most casual players can do it in about a month now and a hard core gamer can do it in two weeks or less.

    Personally I hope this game does have more "grind", especially more than CoH.  At least then I can feel like I have accomplished something when I max a toon out.  If on top of this the story element keeps things going then it will be an awesome mixture to mess around with.

    "If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"

  • Fuel68Fuel68 Member Posts: 41

    I'm sure what with Beta there will be plenty of time for the Devs to tweak level or skill progression that's to their 'ideal' liking whatever subjective goal that may be.  No one wants anything too easy and no one wants it to feel like a 'time-sink' from hell.  We'll see how it goes once Beta becomes available for us.

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