I said "Stop watching the Daily Show" in response to the idea that capitalism is the source of all problems in the world. It was a blanket statement to anyone who runs around with a "capitalism kills cute kittens" attitude that is usually based on what they are told to believe on television, comedic or not.
Maybe you should start watching the Daily Show, because it hardly acts like Capitalism is pure evil. That said, it doesn't act like capitalism is perfect either (because it isn't, which is why there are no purely capitalist countries).
I do watch the Daily Show.
Then you need to work on your viewing comprehension skills.
To start, I am not involved in the video game industry and have only consumed these products for roughly eight years. Maybe this is not news any longer, and maybe I've been a moron myself for consistently hoping that newly developed mmorpgs are actually going to be worth something, but I think it's about time I take a leave from MMOs or video games entirely.
Modern mmo's have nothing to do with imagination, immersiveness, ingenuity, creativity, aesthetic appeal, or anything. They have become streamlined bullshit that is solely consisted of the most repetitious actives targeting the weakest aspects of human behavior. In looking at recent online games like Warhammer, WoW, STO, EQ2, Aion, FFXIV, etc, it appears that all these games boast is increased accessibility in character customization, repetitive dungeons, riskless PvP, boring quests and other gameplay mechanics that do little for the human imagination. They offer shiny graphics but absolutely no substance. Community aspects are ignored and solely limited to chat channels and dungeon finders. Consistently, all of what used to make MMORPGs fun for me is now being considered nonessential and removed so the greatest possible amount of players will subscribe.
It would be hard to write this post without bringing up Blizzard, World of Warcraft, and the effect it has had on the online game industry, something that everyone here knows. I used to have respect for Blizzard for being able to maintain superiority in producing a fun, immersive game. Now, my mind has changed. Cataclysm's dungeons are going to be even more linear. They are revamping dungeons by removing various nonessential wings. What happened to the enjoyment of exploring dungeons through a feeling of risk?
I resubbed WoW to play through WotLK. I did two years after the expansion had come out. Playing my 80 priest through the dungeon finder was a seriously disturbing experience. Every group pushes through 5 man heroics as fast as possible. They have all seem the bosses, know all of the loot, and only do it for badges and now for justice points. No one talks to one another, they have no patience if someone needs to take a piss or needs to know the strategy for the boss, or anything. People are running these dungeons purely for the small amount of badges they will receive to buy loot that will be useless in the next patch (let alone the next expansion.) So this brings me to my next point:
Go take a look at any game developer conference and look at what classes they are offering. You will not notice an emphasis on positive game design through ingenuity, rather, the focus is upon how to maintain a grind without making it feel like one, cognitive psychology in players (this scares the shit out of me), marketing models, the new intrigue in item shops and f2p models, and other crap that is solely for the purpose of making money and increasing subscribers.
These developers don't give a shit about your experience of the game, or creating new forms of art and play through virtual worlds. Now it's about taking advantage of your need to gather and hoard items, the psychological addiction of loot probability (gambling essentially), keeping you on the treadmill for as long as possible, and creating an overall experience that treats the player as some patient who needs his/her fix of MMO crack.
Where is the imagination that Dungeons & Dragons offered, or tabletop Warhammer? These games, along with fantasy literature, was the basis upon where MMOs got their ideas. EQ1, Ultima, Diablo 2, DAoC, FFXI, all offered aspects of gaming that appreciated social community, the unknowing of traveling without a map, open forms of PvP, experience loss, hard dungeons, etc. Old MMORPG experience was about risk and feeling like something unexpected could happen at any play session.
That doesn't exist anymore. Well maybe we can say that this is the "new" generation of MMOs. But then what does it offer in terms of creative, enjoyable content? My bet is that the 12 million subscribers of WoW aren't really even enjoying the game, they are rather not interested enough with their real lives and are seeking some form of accomplishment through gathering gold and items.
I think there is something seriously ethically wrong about the way developers are designing games, and I think that we as the players need to speak up and not act like mice or sheep. Online games should enhance the creative aspects of the individual, and the desire to experience fantasy-like elements with others in a virtual world. They should be about the competition we cannot enjoy in real life, through a playful manner, but also stimulate the collaborative aspects that we as a species can act upon.
I haven’t even touched upon the artistic direction in games today. The main focus is realism. Fu*k realism. Video games are not about imitating real life; they are supposed to be imaginary. I want to see surreal landscapes with twisted skies and feel as if I'm walking through something that does not or never will exist physically. I don't need polished armor and enhanced light and shadows to make me feel like I'm in the world. I want the visual aspect to be left up to me as the observer to attach my own meaning and aesthetic appreciation. Screw how good the water ripple effects are, show me a castle that has been built into a giant mountain that I know I can approach and explore, without having a lighted entry way with a bunch of quest NPCS sitting outside.
Inevitably, I'm going to be told to quit MMOs and leave it up to the people who enjoy them now. Well I probably will, but I do want people to be more skeptical about the games that are coming out in the past few years. Don't just consume them as if they were McDonalds or Starbucks. These games are ideas, and ideas can't be capitalized and streamlined just to get subscribers. We need to ask more of developers, or support independent companies that are trying to make better games (and I try to do this myself.)
That's the end of my rant. I guess I feel like I've spent too many years hoping that MMOs will take a creative turn and approach the potential that they can offer. Sadly, we are going to see more hunks of overpriced shit like SWTOR and Tera.
Here's a good article about how MMOs are trying to get you addicted:
I believe the problem started when EQ1 hit the shelves, ever since then players have expected more and better things from the genre, why, I've no idea.
These developers turn out games because they speak to the high end guilds who tell them what they would like to see, they look over the questioniares ppl fill in when they quit an MMO for another, they read the various MMO sites to see what ppl are complaining about.
You want to point the finger at someone start looking in the mirror, we make the games what they are, the developers go with what they believe we want, then when they give it to us, like instanced dungeons because in good old EQ1 we had thousands complaining about contested spawns, so they make a private dungeon, no more worrying about having to race to the boss, YET PPL STILL BLOODY COMPLAIN.
I'm happy with the way things are, sure I get bored with MMO's so I go and play something completely different, but there is one thing I always miss about these games, the fact I'm playing alongside real ppl, this is the one factor that remains true in nearly all MMO's and the one factor that always has me coming back, even with the multitudes of idiots online I still manage to find some good ppl.
Honestly I only skimmed through the OP's initial post. The title told me all I needed to know about the OP's emo rant; so, I didn't waste my time reading it all.
"bloodsucking capitalist morons"
This implies that the OP is suggesting that capitalists are all greedy and with that, anyone who partakes in the practice of capitalism is evil and a "moron".
First off, it is not a crime to be successful and this agenda being pushed all of the globe that being wealthy is equal to being a mass murder is disgusting. Secondly, I would like to see a communist make a better MMORPG, the very idea of this is laughable; because it's hard to design a game using nothing but pencils and paper, if they can even afford that. Third, what you consider to be an ideal MMO is not what everyone else agrees with. "Oh, but some people on here agreed with me, so that must be everyone". No, the actual gaming majority is not here on these forums, they are actually playing their games, not here whining.
To sum this up; you get what you pay for, thus is the way of the capitalist system; so, with that in mind, the real moron would be the idiot consumer who payed for something they didn't even like to begin with. Fantasizing doesn't really make a product better and in the end the ones who end up having all the fun are the ones who have lower expectations when it comes to entertainment.
*Thumbs up*
I think the problem here is you have one side that understands if you purchase a crap game, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Then you have the other side, that understands capitalism system as a compromising entirely of "big fat greedy business people that take money from the poor and uneducated." These are the people that rather than understand they are to blame for their own choices, decide someone else must be to blame... the company that sold them the game. Of course, someone must be the oppressor and someone must be the oppressed. I guess in this case they are being forced into buying a terrible game by "evil bloodsucking capitalist morons." I'm not sure if this shows how sad the world has become, or the opposite.
I said "Stop watching the Daily Show" in response to the idea that capitalism is the source of all problems in the world. It was a blanket statement to anyone who runs around with a "capitalism kills cute kittens" attitude that is usually based on what they are told to believe on television, comedic or not.
Maybe you should start watching the Daily Show, because it hardly acts like Capitalism is pure evil. That said, it doesn't act like capitalism is perfect either (because it isn't, which is why there are no purely capitalist countries).
I do watch the Daily Show.
Then you need to work on your viewing comprehension skills.
The only person naive here is you. 15 bucks a month IS a ripoff. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.
Well I think this really depends. Most MMO companies aren't exactly swimming in dollars. I don't think it's that $15 is a ripoff, but rather it's that running a Live MMO is hard and most development studios are some combination of inexperienced / inefficient. It shouldn't cost a company $15 a month to keep in MMO running (bugfixes, content, etc), but unfortunately it does for the vast majority of companies.
I think most (actual) developers are overworked and underpaid. Lets just say in MMOs there's a lot of things you can spend money on that doesn't have a very good bang-for-buck. And constant redesigns/reimplementations of a feature, or having to re-do work because the vision changes is not helpful either. And this happens to varying degrees depending on who is the license holder and/or the personalities involved in the ionosphere of upper management, and of course sometimes it's a poorly thought-out feature that simply needs to get scrapped.
I think the situation would improve if gamers ignored the hype and marketing surrounding releases, and only forked over their hard-earned dollars if they've done research and feel the game gives value proportional to the cost. Research does not mean going to official forums, or unofficial forums in categories "set aside" for the given game.
I also want to say I think for projects that take 5 years and is in such a subjective realm such as "entertainment" it's really, really, easy to be throwing money into a hole doing "tests" and "investigations" and "prototyping" when sometimes you just have to do it and move on. But there are film directors like that as well, and I think it comes down to experience/personality.
The only person naive here is you. 15 bucks a month IS a ripoff. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.
Well I think this really depends. Most MMO companies aren't exactly swimming in dollars. I don't think it's that $15 is a ripoff, but rather it's that running a Live MMO is hard and most development studios are some combination of inexperienced / inefficient. It shouldn't cost a company $15 a month to keep in MMO running (bugfixes, content, etc), but unfortunately it does for the vast majority of companies.
I think most (actual) developers are overworked and underpaid. Lets just say in MMOs there's a lot of things you can spend money on that doesn't have a very good bang-for-buck. And constant redesigns/reimplementations of a feature, or having to re-do work because the vision changes is not helpful either. And this happens to varying degrees depending on who is the license holder and/or the personalities involved in the ionosphere of upper management, and of course sometimes it's a poorly thought-out feature that simply needs to get scrapped.
I think the situation would improve if gamers ignored the hype and marketing surrounding releases, and only forked over their hard-earned dollars if they've done research and feel the game gives value proportional to the cost. Research does not mean going to official forums, or unofficial forums in categories "set aside" for the given game.
I also want to say I think for projects that take 5 years and is in such a subjective realm such as "entertainment" it's really, really, easy to be throwing money into a hole doing "tests" and "investigations" and "prototyping" when sometimes you just have to do it and move on. But there are film directors like that as well, and I think it comes down to experience/personality.
That's a nice little story you tell yourself to justify $15 a month to game.
The only person naive here is you. 15 bucks a month IS a ripoff. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something.
Well I think this really depends. Most MMO companies aren't exactly swimming in dollars. I don't think it's that $15 is a ripoff, but rather it's that running a Live MMO is hard and most development studios are some combination of inexperienced / inefficient. It shouldn't cost a company $15 a month to keep in MMO running (bugfixes, content, etc), but unfortunately it does for the vast majority of companies.
I think most (actual) developers are overworked and underpaid. Lets just say in MMOs there's a lot of things you can spend money on that doesn't have a very good bang-for-buck. And constant redesigns/reimplementations of a feature, or having to re-do work because the vision changes is not helpful either. And this happens to varying degrees depending on who is the license holder and/or the personalities involved in the ionosphere of upper management, and of course sometimes it's a poorly thought-out feature that simply needs to get scrapped.
I think the situation would improve if gamers ignored the hype and marketing surrounding releases, and only forked over their hard-earned dollars if they've done research and feel the game gives value proportional to the cost. Research does not mean going to official forums, or unofficial forums in categories "set aside" for the given game.
I also want to say I think for projects that take 5 years and is in such a subjective realm such as "entertainment" it's really, really, easy to be throwing money into a hole doing "tests" and "investigations" and "prototyping" when sometimes you just have to do it and move on. But there are film directors like that as well, and I think it comes down to experience/personality.
That's a nice little story you tell yourself to justify $15 a month to game.
That's a nice little story you tell yourself to justify $15 a month to game.
Cool post, bro!
I didn't realize that if I didn't say the exact words "cool story, bro" that you wouldn't understand what I said. All you did was make up a bunch of stuff based on zero evidence. I, on the other hand, pointed out how pretty much all the "expensive" things you talked about exist in other games for free. What you are left with is massively overpriced content generation.
The few arguments you do have are trivially handled by anyone with the slightest knowledge of game development. Justified by the long development time? Plenty of non-MMOs have the same, and plenty of MMOs that don't go with a sub fee as well (GW2 will be a great example next year).
I hate to say it but one of the things HOLDING GAMES BACK is the $15 per month price tag.
Really good games with good customer service and tons of GM events and quests etc could be done at a $40-50 price point per month that can't be done at the $15 price point.
I would have no issues with paying $50 per month for a really good game unlike what exists now.
That's a nice little story you tell yourself to justify $15 a month to game.
Cool post, bro!
I didn't realize that if I didn't say the exact words "cool story, bro" that you wouldn't understand what I said. All you did was make up a bunch of stuff based on zero evidence. I, on the other hand, pointed out how pretty much all the "expensive" things you talked about exist in other games for free. What you are left with is massively overpriced content generation.
Well, one man's "giving an opinion based on experience" is another man's "make up a bunch of stuff based on zero evidence," right? Welcome to the Internets. Basically, I didn't want to type out some long response to your one-liner, because I felt like I would be feeding the trolls. No offense
Originally posted by Drachasor
The few arguments you do have are trivially handled by anyone with the slightest knowledge of game development. Justified by the long development time? Plenty of non-MMOs have the same, and plenty of MMOs that don't go with a sub fee as well (GW2 will be a great example next year).
What you have said just doesn't hold any water.
Again, I'm sorry but I really can't take this conversation with you too seriously. Although, I am curious because you brought it up... what *is* your game development experience, exactly?
That's a nice little story you tell yourself to justify $15 a month to game.
Cool post, bro!
I didn't realize that if I didn't say the exact words "cool story, bro" that you wouldn't understand what I said. All you did was make up a bunch of stuff based on zero evidence. I, on the other hand, pointed out how pretty much all the "expensive" things you talked about exist in other games for free. What you are left with is massively overpriced content generation.
Well, one man's "giving an opinion based on experience" is another man's "make up a bunch of stuff based on zero evidence," right? Welcome to the Internets. Basically, I didn't want to type out some long response to your one-liner, because I felt like I would be feeding the trolls. No offense
Originally posted by Drachasor
The few arguments you do have are trivially handled by anyone with the slightest knowledge of game development. Justified by the long development time? Plenty of non-MMOs have the same, and plenty of MMOs that don't go with a sub fee as well (GW2 will be a great example next year).
What you have said just doesn't hold any water.
Again, I'm sorry but I really can't take this conversation with you too seriously. Although, I am curious because you brought it up... what *is* your game development experience, exactly?
So you lack of any argument is because you don't want to feed trolls, supposedly? The fact you have no counter to how I point out how other games have many MMO features for free that you claim requires a monthly fee for MMOs because they are special?
Seems to me it is because you don't have a leg to stand on and rather than admit that you are trying to change the subject. My game development experience is irrelevent when I can point to dozens and dozens of games that provide services FOR FREE that you claim need money each month to fund. I'm actually pointing to stuff that exists here whereas you make up sad little stories about the secret, hard life of the devs of sub-based games. I guess it is fun to ignore the counter-examples and even the MMOs that don't have monthly subs?
Not morons. Greedy Capitalists, yes, but the fact that developers like IGG can produce several MMOs of diferent genres very quickly and have thousands play- but non-existent items so that our toons can have a chain-mail bikini makes them brilliant. We're the morons.
the culture is dirrected by the people, but if the people are following the candy gaming directors are throwing us then we're the chumps. I doubt companies like blizzard are going to change their gaming models, they will just keep doing what fills their pockets best.
Its those innovative companies that see these corporations like blizzard and EA as a problem, and start producing their own games that we as gamers should support. The're the ones looking for player feedback, polishing their games as best they can before release, and actually giving us interesting and new content. The best example I can give of this is ArenaNet, try lookin up some of their videos they came out with in the past year or so, and you will see something remarcable, they care about making good games, and not just the artists or the programers care, the lovein goes right up to the top in ArenaNet.
(arena net is my example, if you can think of a better one thats fine)
New age mmo's are made for the target audience of 10 to 15 year olds.
Kids want the easy ride or their Mommy's are not paying. So company target the easymoney.
To make a good complex game like EQ was, would not bring in as much money as a crappy mmo, because the real money comes from Mommy's and daddy's that have never played an mmo.
Kids now a days want it easy, so they can chat an call each other racist names, or make chuck norris and gay jokes, while their killing monsters.
If you remember the days of tough strategic game play be thankful. Because their done. mmo's are a corporate business now and quality doesn't matter.
Originally posted by DrachasorThat's a nice little story you tell yourself to justify $15 a month to game.Cool post, bro!
I didn't realize that if I didn't say the exact words "cool story, bro" that you wouldn't understand what I said. All you did was make up a bunch of stuff based on zero evidence. I, on the other hand, pointed out how pretty much all the "expensive" things you talked about exist in other games for free. What you are left with is massively overpriced content generation.
Well, one man's "giving an opinion based on experience" is another man's "make up a bunch of stuff based on zero evidence," right? Welcome to the Internets. Basically, I didn't want to type out some long response to your one-liner, because I felt like I would be feeding the trolls. No offense Originally posted by DrachasorThe few arguments you do have are trivially handled by anyone with the slightest knowledge of game development. Justified by the long development time? Plenty of non-MMOs have the same, and plenty of MMOs that don't go with a sub fee as well (GW2 will be a great example next year).What you have said just doesn't hold any water.
Again, I'm sorry but I really can't take this conversation with you too seriously. Although, I am curious because you brought it up... what *is* your game development experience, exactly?
So you lack of any argument is because you don't want to feed trolls, supposedly? The fact you have no counter to how I point out how other games have many MMO features for free that you claim requires a monthly fee for MMOs because they are special?Seems to me it is because you don't have a leg to stand on and rather than admit that you are trying to change the subject. My game development experience is irrelevent when I can point to dozens and dozens of games that provide services FOR FREE that you claim need money each month to fund. I'm actually pointing to stuff that exists here whereas you make up sad little stories about the secret, hard life of the devs of sub-based games. I guess it is fun to ignore the counter-examples and even the MMOs that don't have monthly subs?If you have nothing, you should admit it.
What games, exactly, have "many MMO features for free"? What are these features, exactly? Please, list the dozens of games and their features if you really want to talk about that. As far as I can recall, the only time you have responded to any of my posts is the top-level nested quote.
The title of this thread notwithstanding, I think the barrier of entry to making a game - even an MMO - is at its lowest since probably the early 1990s. Not a AAA game, sure, but it's easier than ever to make a game and get it out there. If you are unsatisfied with the value you are getting for a $15-a-month sub, there is nothing stopping you from making your own game and putting whatever business model you want in place. There's also nothing stopping you from playing Guild Wars or any number of MMOs that lack a subscription fee.
Currently, the only MMO I am subbed to consistently is EvE because I feel it's the only game where I get value on par with the cost. And that's a personal choice. We'll see if any up-and-coming MMOs will get my dollar. But it's not like other MMO companies are rolling in dough. They actually do spend the month subs they collect, but I happen to disagree with where my money gets spent and therefore I do not subscribe, which is my recourse as a consumer.
Now I get the feeling you may believe there are hordes of mustachioed villains working in game studios, and this just isn't the case. I think there are a vast array of complicated reasons why the MMO industry is what it is, and I think it's a very interesting topic, but that level of adult conversation doesn't seem to really have a place on MMORPG.com. I don't know if it has a place anywhere on anonymous messageboards.
That's a nice little story you tell yourself to justify $15 a month to game.
Cool post, bro!
I didn't realize that if I didn't say the exact words "cool story, bro" that you wouldn't understand what I said. All you did was make up a bunch of stuff based on zero evidence. I, on the other hand, pointed out how pretty much all the "expensive" things you talked about exist in other games for free. What you are left with is massively overpriced content generation.
Well, one man's "giving an opinion based on experience" is another man's "make up a bunch of stuff based on zero evidence," right? Welcome to the Internets. Basically, I didn't want to type out some long response to your one-liner, because I felt like I would be feeding the trolls. No offense
Originally posted by Drachasor
The few arguments you do have are trivially handled by anyone with the slightest knowledge of game development. Justified by the long development time? Plenty of non-MMOs have the same, and plenty of MMOs that don't go with a sub fee as well (GW2 will be a great example next year).
What you have said just doesn't hold any water.
Again, I'm sorry but I really can't take this conversation with you too seriously. Although, I am curious because you brought it up... what *is* your game development experience, exactly?
So you lack of any argument is because you don't want to feed trolls, supposedly? The fact you have no counter to how I point out how other games have many MMO features for free that you claim requires a monthly fee for MMOs because they are special?
Seems to me it is because you don't have a leg to stand on and rather than admit that you are trying to change the subject. My game development experience is irrelevent when I can point to dozens and dozens of games that provide services FOR FREE that you claim need money each month to fund. I'm actually pointing to stuff that exists here whereas you make up sad little stories about the secret, hard life of the devs of sub-based games. I guess it is fun to ignore the counter-examples and even the MMOs that don't have monthly subs?
If you have nothing, you should admit it.
it should also be noted that most the funds a game makes, dont go to the people who actually make the game. So those sub fees you think go to help feed their families? yea it goes right into their Bosses pockets
Thank your lucky stars that they are capitalists, if they weren't you wouldn't have games to play at all. Heck, if it weren't for capitalism home computers wouldn't be nearly as advanced as they are, if they would exist at all.
Now greed can get the capitalist into trouble. Greed causes the capitalist to take shortcuts and make poor products that lead to failure. I blame greed, not capitalism itself. That said, even the most well meaning capitalist can make a poor product. Sometimes the reality of a product just doesn't live up to the vision a developer has when they started. I think we've been experiencing a little of both.
You guys are so busy trying to sound smart than you end up sounding like trolls.
Like i said in a earlier post, its all about who's paying, and right now it's kids Mommy's and daddy's.
so quality doesn't matter and it never will till kids quit spending on crap games.
But the problem is the kids dont even know their crap games because this is all they've ever seen and they have to to brag at school about what their playing so it Will never end. Crap games are here forever.
You guys are so busy trying to sound smart than you end up sounding like trolls.
Like i said in a earlier post, its all about who's paying, and right now it's kids Mommy's and daddy's.
so quality doesn't matter and it never will till kids quit spending on crap games.
But the problem is the kids dont even know their crap games because this is all they've ever seen and they have to to brag at school about what their playing so it Will never end. Crap games are here forever.
I have to disagree. AoC, WAR, LotRO, DDO, etc., etc...none of these games were marketed toward kids. Very few of the most hyped games in recent years that I can think of were marketed for a younger audience, but most failed or enjoy very slim margins of success. Even WoW, as cartoony as it is, wasn't really marketed to a younger audience. It's original audience tended to be in their twenties. Yeah, I see a lot of immature players in MMO's these days, but most of those MMO players are not kids, they are adults who should know better but still behave badly. Unless of course you're putting those twenty-somethings in the 'kid' category.
You guys are so busy trying to sound smart than you end up sounding like trolls.
Like i said in a earlier post, its all about who's paying, and right now it's kids Mommy's and daddy's.
so quality doesn't matter and it never will till kids quit spending on crap games.
But the problem is the kids dont even know their crap games because this is all they've ever seen and they have to to brag at school about what their playing so it Will never end. Crap games are here forever.
This is how AE makes its money, by making games based off of movies that just came out. Pretty much every movie that has been popular to kids has been turned into a video game they will play. because what better way to get a kid to play a game but to leach off of the publicity it just got from the motion pitcure? Its good capitalism, but its bad gaming.
Capitalism should be about making a good product and then reaping all of the rewards from that good product, unfortunately capitalists are getting lazy, and would rather dominate the market with poorly made games designed to keep us hooked, then make a product we will enjoy for a while and then want to move on to another good product.
If you look at other forms of art like film, literature and photography the most amazing works are often the ones you only have to comeback to once or twice a year. This is because those works we're good enough to reside in our minds long after we've experienced.
its the same with games, but because gaming companies are starting to focus on only making one product last as long as possible (MMO's would be the best example) they dont put enough of their resources in making good games we will enjoy and be apart of. Sadly Blizzard is my example for this, look at how long starcraft 2 took? and how long diablo 3 is taking? both are the children of amazing/popular games that many of us loved, heck in korea starcraft is practicaly the national sport, but because blizzard is making more money off of WoW the others where never a priority. So we get stuck in a rut, gamers who are waiting for the next big thing and gamers who are stuck repeating the same addictive tasks over and over that make the others wait even longer.
What games, exactly, have "many MMO features for free"? What are these features, exactly? Please, list the dozens of games and their features if you really want to talk about that. As far as I can recall, the only time you have responded to any of my posts is the top-level nested quote.
The title of this thread notwithstanding, I think the barrier of entry to making a game - even an MMO - is at its lowest since probably the early 1990s. Not a AAA game, sure, but it's easier than ever to make a game and get it out there. If you are unsatisfied with the value you are getting for a $15-a-month sub, there is nothing stopping you from making your own game and putting whatever business model you want in place. There's also nothing stopping you from playing Guild Wars or any number of MMOs that lack a subscription fee.
Currently, the only MMO I am subbed to consistently is EvE because I feel it's the only game where I get value on par with the cost. And that's a personal choice. We'll see if any up-and-coming MMOs will get my dollar. But it's not like other MMO companies are rolling in dough. They actually do spend the month subs they collect, but I happen to disagree with where my money gets spent and therefore I do not subscribe, which is my recourse as a consumer.
Now I get the feeling you may believe there are hordes of mustachioed villains working in game studios, and this just isn't the case. I think there are a vast array of complicated reasons why the MMO industry is what it is, and I think it's a very interesting topic, but that level of adult conversation doesn't seem to really have a place on MMORPG.com. I don't know if it has a place anywhere on anonymous messageboards.
When you talk about balancing, customer service (which includes GMs), and company servers, then pretty much any multi-player game made today EXCEPT MMOs has those for free. Starcraft, Call of Duty, Halo, Civilization IV or V, and I could go on and on. Of course, I already mentioned this if you had been paying attention.
What are you left with? Content. MMO's don't provide 180 bucks of content each year. Heck, they are lucky to do 30 bucks with of content (expansion pack level in most games). This is even worse when you consider retailers aren't taking a hefty chunk of the sub money. EVE might be a little better than others here, but they still only manage what...2 expansion packs worth of content AT BEST per year? Not worth 180 dollars.
I don't think there are mustachioed villains, but I do think the customer IS being exploited and this has generally continued as people have tried to capture the very small percent of gamers willing to pay too much for too little. Companies use some psychological tricks to get people paying for grindy gameplay that's not as good as gameplay in other genres (and generally hasn't even changed much in the last 10 years). This is hardly anything particular novel regarding big business. They'll always try to get as much cash as possible if they think it can be sustained (and in some cases when it can't, though that doesn't apply to MMOs).
You guys are so busy trying to sound smart than you end up sounding like trolls.
Like i said in a earlier post, its all about who's paying, and right now it's kids Mommy's and daddy's.
so quality doesn't matter and it never will till kids quit spending on crap games.
But the problem is the kids dont even know their crap games because this is all they've ever seen and they have to to brag at school about what their playing so it Will never end. Crap games are here forever.
I have to disagree. AoC, WAR, LotRO, DDO, etc., etc...none of these games were marketed toward kids. Very few of the most hyped games in recent years that I can think of were marketed for a younger audience, but most failed or enjoy very slim margins of success. Even WoW, as cartoony as it is, wasn't really marketed to a younger audience. It's original audience tended to be in their twenties. Yeah, I see a lot of immature players in MMO's these days, but most of those MMO players are not kids, they are adults who should know better but still behave badly. Unless of course you're putting those twenty-somethings in the 'kid' category.
It doesn't stop in the 20s.
Frankly in leading raids and running a guild the actual kids weren't a problem. It was the problematic adults that derailed things.
And the other two have been serious disappointments, and will be free to play soon probably.
Which backs up everything i said.
Sorry, but no it doesn't. The only thing it backs up is that these games were poorly made, not that they were made for 'kids'. At least that's the only thing I've seen that you were trying to say. I haven't read the entire thread so I have no idea what else you may have said and it was only the 'kids' remark I was referring to anyway, so it doesn't back that up at all.
Comments
Then you need to work on your viewing comprehension skills.
I believe the problem started when EQ1 hit the shelves, ever since then players have expected more and better things from the genre, why, I've no idea.
These developers turn out games because they speak to the high end guilds who tell them what they would like to see, they look over the questioniares ppl fill in when they quit an MMO for another, they read the various MMO sites to see what ppl are complaining about.
You want to point the finger at someone start looking in the mirror, we make the games what they are, the developers go with what they believe we want, then when they give it to us, like instanced dungeons because in good old EQ1 we had thousands complaining about contested spawns, so they make a private dungeon, no more worrying about having to race to the boss, YET PPL STILL BLOODY COMPLAIN.
I'm happy with the way things are, sure I get bored with MMO's so I go and play something completely different, but there is one thing I always miss about these games, the fact I'm playing alongside real ppl, this is the one factor that remains true in nearly all MMO's and the one factor that always has me coming back, even with the multitudes of idiots online I still manage to find some good ppl.
*Thumbs up*
I think the problem here is you have one side that understands if you purchase a crap game, you have no one to blame but yourself.
Then you have the other side, that understands capitalism system as a compromising entirely of "big fat greedy business people that take money from the poor and uneducated." These are the people that rather than understand they are to blame for their own choices, decide someone else must be to blame... the company that sold them the game. Of course, someone must be the oppressor and someone must be the oppressed. I guess in this case they are being forced into buying a terrible game by "evil bloodsucking capitalist morons." I'm not sure if this shows how sad the world has become, or the opposite.
Everyone else falls in between.
Likewise
Well I think this really depends. Most MMO companies aren't exactly swimming in dollars. I don't think it's that $15 is a ripoff, but rather it's that running a Live MMO is hard and most development studios are some combination of inexperienced / inefficient. It shouldn't cost a company $15 a month to keep in MMO running (bugfixes, content, etc), but unfortunately it does for the vast majority of companies.
I think most (actual) developers are overworked and underpaid. Lets just say in MMOs there's a lot of things you can spend money on that doesn't have a very good bang-for-buck. And constant redesigns/reimplementations of a feature, or having to re-do work because the vision changes is not helpful either. And this happens to varying degrees depending on who is the license holder and/or the personalities involved in the ionosphere of upper management, and of course sometimes it's a poorly thought-out feature that simply needs to get scrapped.
I think the situation would improve if gamers ignored the hype and marketing surrounding releases, and only forked over their hard-earned dollars if they've done research and feel the game gives value proportional to the cost. Research does not mean going to official forums, or unofficial forums in categories "set aside" for the given game.
I also want to say I think for projects that take 5 years and is in such a subjective realm such as "entertainment" it's really, really, easy to be throwing money into a hole doing "tests" and "investigations" and "prototyping" when sometimes you just have to do it and move on. But there are film directors like that as well, and I think it comes down to experience/personality.
That's a nice little story you tell yourself to justify $15 a month to game.
Agreed to the title of the thread. Couldn't say it any better myself. I know some of those morons personally.
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Cool post, bro!
I didn't realize that if I didn't say the exact words "cool story, bro" that you wouldn't understand what I said. All you did was make up a bunch of stuff based on zero evidence. I, on the other hand, pointed out how pretty much all the "expensive" things you talked about exist in other games for free. What you are left with is massively overpriced content generation.
The few arguments you do have are trivially handled by anyone with the slightest knowledge of game development. Justified by the long development time? Plenty of non-MMOs have the same, and plenty of MMOs that don't go with a sub fee as well (GW2 will be a great example next year).
What you have said just doesn't hold any water.
I hate to say it but one of the things HOLDING GAMES BACK is the $15 per month price tag.
Really good games with good customer service and tons of GM events and quests etc could be done at a $40-50 price point per month that can't be done at the $15 price point.
I would have no issues with paying $50 per month for a really good game unlike what exists now.
Well, one man's "giving an opinion based on experience" is another man's "make up a bunch of stuff based on zero evidence," right? Welcome to the Internets. Basically, I didn't want to type out some long response to your one-liner, because I felt like I would be feeding the trolls. No offense
Again, I'm sorry but I really can't take this conversation with you too seriously. Although, I am curious because you brought it up... what *is* your game development experience, exactly?
So you lack of any argument is because you don't want to feed trolls, supposedly? The fact you have no counter to how I point out how other games have many MMO features for free that you claim requires a monthly fee for MMOs because they are special?
Seems to me it is because you don't have a leg to stand on and rather than admit that you are trying to change the subject. My game development experience is irrelevent when I can point to dozens and dozens of games that provide services FOR FREE that you claim need money each month to fund. I'm actually pointing to stuff that exists here whereas you make up sad little stories about the secret, hard life of the devs of sub-based games. I guess it is fun to ignore the counter-examples and even the MMOs that don't have monthly subs?
If you have nothing, you should admit it.
Not morons. Greedy Capitalists, yes, but the fact that developers like IGG can produce several MMOs of diferent genres very quickly and have thousands play- but non-existent items so that our toons can have a chain-mail bikini makes them brilliant. We're the morons.
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire
the culture is dirrected by the people, but if the people are following the candy gaming directors are throwing us then we're the chumps. I doubt companies like blizzard are going to change their gaming models, they will just keep doing what fills their pockets best.
Its those innovative companies that see these corporations like blizzard and EA as a problem, and start producing their own games that we as gamers should support. The're the ones looking for player feedback, polishing their games as best they can before release, and actually giving us interesting and new content. The best example I can give of this is ArenaNet, try lookin up some of their videos they came out with in the past year or so, and you will see something remarcable, they care about making good games, and not just the artists or the programers care, the lovein goes right up to the top in ArenaNet.
(arena net is my example, if you can think of a better one thats fine)
New age mmo's are made for the target audience of 10 to 15 year olds.
Kids want the easy ride or their Mommy's are not paying. So company target the easymoney.
To make a good complex game like EQ was, would not bring in as much money as a crappy mmo, because the real money comes from Mommy's and daddy's that have never played an mmo.
Kids now a days want it easy, so they can chat an call each other racist names, or make chuck norris and gay jokes, while their killing monsters.
If you remember the days of tough strategic game play be thankful. Because their done. mmo's are a corporate business now and quality doesn't matter.
What games, exactly, have "many MMO features for free"? What are these features, exactly? Please, list the dozens of games and their features if you really want to talk about that. As far as I can recall, the only time you have responded to any of my posts is the top-level nested quote.
The title of this thread notwithstanding, I think the barrier of entry to making a game - even an MMO - is at its lowest since probably the early 1990s. Not a AAA game, sure, but it's easier than ever to make a game and get it out there. If you are unsatisfied with the value you are getting for a $15-a-month sub, there is nothing stopping you from making your own game and putting whatever business model you want in place. There's also nothing stopping you from playing Guild Wars or any number of MMOs that lack a subscription fee.
Currently, the only MMO I am subbed to consistently is EvE because I feel it's the only game where I get value on par with the cost. And that's a personal choice. We'll see if any up-and-coming MMOs will get my dollar. But it's not like other MMO companies are rolling in dough. They actually do spend the month subs they collect, but I happen to disagree with where my money gets spent and therefore I do not subscribe, which is my recourse as a consumer.
Now I get the feeling you may believe there are hordes of mustachioed villains working in game studios, and this just isn't the case. I think there are a vast array of complicated reasons why the MMO industry is what it is, and I think it's a very interesting topic, but that level of adult conversation doesn't seem to really have a place on MMORPG.com. I don't know if it has a place anywhere on anonymous messageboards.
it should also be noted that most the funds a game makes, dont go to the people who actually make the game. So those sub fees you think go to help feed their families? yea it goes right into their Bosses pockets
Thank your lucky stars that they are capitalists, if they weren't you wouldn't have games to play at all. Heck, if it weren't for capitalism home computers wouldn't be nearly as advanced as they are, if they would exist at all.
Now greed can get the capitalist into trouble. Greed causes the capitalist to take shortcuts and make poor products that lead to failure. I blame greed, not capitalism itself. That said, even the most well meaning capitalist can make a poor product. Sometimes the reality of a product just doesn't live up to the vision a developer has when they started. I think we've been experiencing a little of both.
You guys are so busy trying to sound smart than you end up sounding like trolls.
Like i said in a earlier post, its all about who's paying, and right now it's kids Mommy's and daddy's.
so quality doesn't matter and it never will till kids quit spending on crap games.
But the problem is the kids dont even know their crap games because this is all they've ever seen and they have to to brag at school about what their playing so it Will never end. Crap games are here forever.
I have to disagree. AoC, WAR, LotRO, DDO, etc., etc...none of these games were marketed toward kids. Very few of the most hyped games in recent years that I can think of were marketed for a younger audience, but most failed or enjoy very slim margins of success. Even WoW, as cartoony as it is, wasn't really marketed to a younger audience. It's original audience tended to be in their twenties. Yeah, I see a lot of immature players in MMO's these days, but most of those MMO players are not kids, they are adults who should know better but still behave badly. Unless of course you're putting those twenty-somethings in the 'kid' category.
This is how AE makes its money, by making games based off of movies that just came out. Pretty much every movie that has been popular to kids has been turned into a video game they will play. because what better way to get a kid to play a game but to leach off of the publicity it just got from the motion pitcure? Its good capitalism, but its bad gaming.
Capitalism should be about making a good product and then reaping all of the rewards from that good product, unfortunately capitalists are getting lazy, and would rather dominate the market with poorly made games designed to keep us hooked, then make a product we will enjoy for a while and then want to move on to another good product.
If you look at other forms of art like film, literature and photography the most amazing works are often the ones you only have to comeback to once or twice a year. This is because those works we're good enough to reside in our minds long after we've experienced.
its the same with games, but because gaming companies are starting to focus on only making one product last as long as possible (MMO's would be the best example) they dont put enough of their resources in making good games we will enjoy and be apart of. Sadly Blizzard is my example for this, look at how long starcraft 2 took? and how long diablo 3 is taking? both are the children of amazing/popular games that many of us loved, heck in korea starcraft is practicaly the national sport, but because blizzard is making more money off of WoW the others where never a priority. So we get stuck in a rut, gamers who are waiting for the next big thing and gamers who are stuck repeating the same addictive tasks over and over that make the others wait even longer.
When you talk about balancing, customer service (which includes GMs), and company servers, then pretty much any multi-player game made today EXCEPT MMOs has those for free. Starcraft, Call of Duty, Halo, Civilization IV or V, and I could go on and on. Of course, I already mentioned this if you had been paying attention.
What are you left with? Content. MMO's don't provide 180 bucks of content each year. Heck, they are lucky to do 30 bucks with of content (expansion pack level in most games). This is even worse when you consider retailers aren't taking a hefty chunk of the sub money. EVE might be a little better than others here, but they still only manage what...2 expansion packs worth of content AT BEST per year? Not worth 180 dollars.
I don't think there are mustachioed villains, but I do think the customer IS being exploited and this has generally continued as people have tried to capture the very small percent of gamers willing to pay too much for too little. Companies use some psychological tricks to get people paying for grindy gameplay that's not as good as gameplay in other genres (and generally hasn't even changed much in the last 10 years). This is hardly anything particular novel regarding big business. They'll always try to get as much cash as possible if they think it can be sustained (and in some cases when it can't, though that doesn't apply to MMOs).
It doesn't stop in the 20s.
Frankly in leading raids and running a guild the actual kids weren't a problem. It was the problematic adults that derailed things.
Two of the four you said had to go free to play.
And the other two have been serious disappointments, and will be free to play soon probably.
Which backs up everything i said.
Sorry, but no it doesn't. The only thing it backs up is that these games were poorly made, not that they were made for 'kids'. At least that's the only thing I've seen that you were trying to say. I haven't read the entire thread so I have no idea what else you may have said and it was only the 'kids' remark I was referring to anyway, so it doesn't back that up at all.