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* After careful study, What's wrong with Vanguard *
delete5230
Member EpicPosts: 7,081
RETENTION, NOT ADVERTISEMENT !
As you know I've only been playing Vanguard a few months. I spent much of my time in study along with playing.
People here seem to be obsessed with blaming Sigil, investors, Brad, Smedley, and Microsoft for early decisions made...Well this used to be, but thats over with. Too much time had passed to hold a grudge. IT'S TIME TO GET OVER THAT !
As many of you know, I'm using a very good method of finding friends. I use it to play with others, and I could safely say that I had well over 50 noobs on my friends list, and had talked to them all. Each one is so grateful to have a friend because they can't find them on their own ( I know what the noobs are thinking )
Many play the trial Island for free, and many of them pay the subscription for one month. Of the ones that pay for the month, I found that very very close to everyone quits. So why ? ...It's not the bugs, the game world, classes. Some because of computer specs, but most find that they can't play the game in the free trial, so thats not the problem either. The problem is finding others to play with.
VANGUARD IS A TWO OR MORE PLAYER GAME. It's no more hard core than any other, just made for groups. All the cool content can't be done by the solo player, they get the kill ten rats quest, and most find that boring. Especially when they know their are many Dungeons, Keeps, and Armor/ weapons chain quest that have to be done by a group. This holds true as you get in the late teen levels.....The noob is finding this frustrating !....Some can find a group today, but what about tomarrow ? Some Guilds will help today, but what about tomarrow ?
SOE seems to have their head up their butt.....They have two full games that are full and with lot's of content, Vanguard and Everquest 2. Both games lack for grouping. Traditional methods don't work, in fact very few mmos do except maybe WoW, Lotro, FF11, and EVE. Unless your max level, the noobs are doomed to quit.
1) Guilds are not the answer ( only on paper ) - Sorry but this is true. Too many Guilds vs. low population ( Vanguard 451 players on at prime time Friday nights, and 40 guilds )
2) Shouting LFG in OOC chat are not the answer- no one is gonna come and do your stuff.
I don't blame SOE for ADVERTISEMENT any more, but RETENTION. They can't keep players !!!!!
Here would be some suggestions :
1) A main hub for players to gather, Vanguard has Vaskals Exchange, but they need to make it more official.
2) Open the chat to world chat.
3) Incentives in place to merge guilds ( to many )
4) Better solo content
5) I beginners guild ran by the Dev's, Hay add voice chat
6) Somehow make the social LFG panel more desirable.
" Yes " Vanguard is getting little support, but I'm offering an easy fix.
It's a RETENTION PROBLEM, not a ADVERTISEMENT problem. I know, I'm in the low level trenches. That's where I play and socialize. I know for a fact that many are new, and not just alternates. I know for a fact that most everyone quits after the first month. I know where the problem is. I put it on the table on the official Vanguard forum ,only to be met with " there is not problem with Vanguard " from the veterans of the game. Not one intervention from the dev team. Who knows, maybe SOE really does not care. Sometimes I have to ask, why should I ?
Comments
I would just let it go.
There is no point becoming so heaviliy invested in a game that will never be any more than it is now and will most probably only get worse as time goes on. If the past couple years haven't shown people where Vanguard lies within SOE's development priorities then I don't really know what will.
Vanguard is a lost cause. The only thing that could possibly breath life back into it is it going F2P but that would alienate most of those who have stuck with the game. Soe has shown through actions and silence that they have no intentions to continue active development.
let it go.
its over.
grieve if you must.
rage against the man(soe)
its not going to make a difference.
move on to something else.
It's a dead game.
SOE did a lot to get it playable, but with such a bad history there is nothing they can do to salvage it now. It was in a pretty bad state when SOE bought it.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
Well i won't disagree that the game has improved a hell of a lot since launch.. but. that was quite a while ago.. i think with all games there is a 'window of opportunity' and once its missed, its very hard.. if not nigh on impossible.. to recapture that 'window' and these days. The fantasy game market is a bit bloated, even without the huge elephant sitting in the middle of the room (WOW) so... its not so much a case of 'whats wrong with Vanguard' - imo it remains a game with more potential than quite a few others that SOE posses, but more a case of, how to get people interested in Vanguard again.. and that is something i just don't see happening.. as.. of course.. SOE has managed to garner quite a fair bit of hostility from players too.. so much so that i'd go so far as to say they'd pass up a SOE game even if it was a good one - i know people will automatically think SWG for the SOE hate.. but i think that overlooks some of the other games that have been 'abused' whilst in their care.. at least in the perception of the players...
I agree 100% OP. I would be playing still if A. I could find a group of people MY level, and I mean lots of people. Heck just seeing someone run by every now and then would be nice. B. If I could solo efficiently past 23 the same way I was solo questing to get TO 23, lol. The game is awesome except for those 2 major flaws.
To top it off, it seems development has stopped on the game making it not worth the subscription price. Word to SOE, if you plan to not develop the game further, don't charge me to play it.
It's a good game. I had lots and lots of fun playing it. But like you said you need people to play it. Since SOE has thrown it into the very dark, dusty, spider web infested section of the attic it scares anyone away. If a person even somehow hears about it and gives it a try.
The only way now for Vanguard to make a come back is for SOE to either spend a bajillion dollars on advertisement and special promotions or switch it to F2P and do just a little advertisement.
I think going F2P would then attract enough people that new players would find themselves in a game with lots of other people around. They wouldn't feel like they're in an abandoned wasteland. That would then lead to the retention that you speak of.
I'd absolutely come back if it went F2P. If it had a large population right now I would come back. I don't play anymore though because there's nobody to play with. F2P would fix that in my opinion.
People will never get over it. It's just sour grapes. People ate the sour grape and now they make it their life long goal to rant about it because they just don't know how to move on.
OP makes valid points. Retention is a big problem. There is always people on the trial island. It is active and sometimes easy to find groups but once you leave you enter a big world that looks empty. The game is also too top heavy. Too many people that have been playing for years and now they have multiple max level characters. If you are new to the game it is hard finding someone your level. Kills it right around the 20's because that's when the quests get hard for soloers, an issue that has been around for years.
All the suggestions are great. Would love to see them put into the game especially the guilds. Too many guilds out there for just a small number of players. SoE seems to be moving on though which is sad. Everquest is still their baby and it will get their attention before VG gets anything.
I also quit at 26 or so but for different reasons. Had to do with too many crafters and a wrist problem. I was also in a guild but by now they have left the game.
I was curious if you manage to get to 30 does the solo pick up again or it just gets bad after 20 and remains so ?
That is a good question since if worse came to worse one could just grind mobs until their eyes bled to reach those levels to continue questing. Hmmm....
I had almost no problems with Vg at all,only lack of players.
There was a few pet peeves i had,but really it was more about lack of players.I didn't like the way they copied Eq's aggression,everything was auto aggro,you reach a certain point and bam.I prefer FFXI's setup,they have sound aggro/sight aggro,scent aggro and it offered more mechanics and options to the game play.All in all i would have liked to see VG copy Eq a little less, imean i don'tlie kthe fact that Wow copied it so much either.
Other than that it was personal things like having to kill a certain mob for a quest but it was camped by botter to attain it's drops,quest mobs shouldn't have favored drops ,it means bot camping 101.
Also there was a ton of cheating early on,people were using rmt to buy everyting they needed to control the market early on,these players were able to get rich,whilst the legit players struggled behind only to watch sales plummet because the cheats beat us to it.
What i found was the majority of complaints were unwarranted,peoplewere trying to play the most advanced game in the MMO market with mediocre machines.Then they would use dumb comparisons like single player games or other cheaper graphic games that they THOUGHT were better,but were not.VG is dx 9c there is not a single game better,LOTRO only uses very little dx 10 the same for AOC,they are still DX9c games.Object fill plays a big role in how well a map plays,most games have few mobs or limited objects to allow their maps to play smooth,VG tried to give us the very best game possible.Geesh games like Wow are so inept that they are using instances for most of their game play,people are paying for second rate game engines and second rate quality,but what ever they want is ok with me,just don't try and compare second rate versus higher quality.
My list of best designed MMORPG are 1 FFXi....2 VG....3 EQ2,the rest of my list actually falls way behind as they have too many flaws but games like AOC/runes of Magic had a lot of potential but lack in different areas ,otherwise they could be top 3.I am not kidding when i say a game like Wow offers not one single idea i would use if i were to design a game,it really is that bad imo.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I just now got the time to install Vanguard on my new computer and I'm updating as I'm wrting this.
Vanguard is fine. Just not for everyone.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
SOE is moving more and more closer to item mall gaming,so i wouldn't be surprised if VG goes F2p.The one problem wit hthat is it really does not have a high enough player base to make any money from F2p,at least with the factual paying customers SOE knows what their cost/profit margin will be each month.
Here is my opinion as to what woudl make VG better for a long haul......
restructure the game.D exactly like Eq2 Xtended,and create a new server with the new structuring,and try to ease everyone over to the new server.
Here is the catch,i truly believe in super grind,this is because a new server would entice a ton of people but nobody would be left too far behind in levels ,even a week or two later.Create a new combat and class structure ,similar to FFXI,meaning multiclass and some sort of TP bonuses and combos that utilize team work.I liked the idea from Runes of magic on gear imbuing,it is a cool idea,that would give players other things to do in game.I also feel VG could utilize more content outside of just leveling,this is a problem with ALL games,look no further than FFXI,Arenas that have captured pets fight on your behalf,MANY other ideas like player created mazes,having to battle up 100 floors ect ect.Ideas like Beseiged where mobs from the wilderness attack the cities,but offer some more incentives than what FFXI did.
Eventually the new server takes over and the old one deleted,sure the old vets would be pissed,but the game has no chance unless it goes this route so,take it or leave it,imo a SINCERE vet would rather see the game get better and advance than remain hopeless and stagnant.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
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So blue does the soloing get easier after level 30 I don't mind grinding out the last 4 levels after 26 just need to know that after the quests open up. I do not have any problem with gear last I checked I had like a crafter for everything. The crafters I recalled were almost level 40 ,yes my crafting level was higher than my adventuring level. Yes I know what is up with that ?
Vanguard was an awesome game on paper, but it was just so poorly executed at the beginning that people gave up on it. There are just too many other games out there, not to mention other forms of entertainment, for people to waste what precious free time they have on something that doesn't work well.
At this point i tihnk it could be argued that the game just isn't going to be much more than it already is. F2P is a good idea, but I don't think they want to lose what little subscriber money they are getting at the moment. It seems like soe wants to whip this horse until it's dead, and i don't think they are going to invest too much money into it because they don't have much in the way of long term plans for it. F2P only works if it is a door that leads to "gold memeber" subscribers or a la carte sales of game content later, and Vanguard probably isn't capable of doing that as it stands now.
The opening poster was making the point that it's about community in a game and when it comes to mmo games it's hands down the most important thing. How many people use texting and social networking sites every day. They are not filled with awesome graphics or with orchestrated ambient music. People want to interact and playing an mmo is a way of doing that. If you don't make the game playable for a large group of people with average computers and maybe not 10 hours at a sitting to play, then you lose the base to your community.
That doesn't mean the game can't be hardcore in a sense or still look good. But the graphics can't be state of the art and the hardcore content needs to be able to be chunked up into smaller bits so people can do a portion at a time within an hour or two. The movie industry figured out a long time ago that two hours is the average amount ot time you want to try and hold someones attention for entertainment, because more than that and you risk the normal distractions of life getting in the way.
The most important factor in Vanguard at this point though is just reputation, it got torn apart by critics and gamers alike at launch and it just never recovered from that. It works like that in all aspects of life. Think about what it was like to hear the name Tiger Woods five years ago and what it's like now, and he managed to work all the way to the top of his field before that all went down. Vangaurd had a bad reputation from day one. There's just no getting over it. Enjoy it for what it is, or let it go and move on.
Not all who wander are lost...
Converting a game like Vanguard to a free to play model would consume time, staff, money and resources beter spent on existing games that have more than a couple of hundred people playing them or into the development of new titles. If SOE were willing to make that sort of investment into Vanguard, then they would have done so already in the form continued development of the game, paid expansions etc..
I fully expect Vanguard to be kept on life-support mode until the release of EverQuest Next where they will proceed to pull the plug and offer some sort of discount incentive for current Vanguard subscribers to jump ship.
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Every time I have gone back to Vanguard, I've loved it. Sad thing is, I don't believe it's a priority for SOE anymore like others have stated.
The game is much better than it used to be, but I believe it'll never grow beyond what it currently is based on the resources the team has available.
I don't think more solo content is the right way to go. It is fine that games have solo content but it is also fine that some don't. Different game have different playstyles in mind.
EQ2 have a lot of solo content so if you like soloing that is the game for you. I do agree that VG needs more ways to help new players join guilds and learn to know people however, and it needs a good tool for merging guilds as well.
But adding solo content will just lead to the already thin population will get even thinner. Most games are solo friendly but VG and FF XI just isn't while other games are focusing a lot of work for the soloers. There is room for both games with and without soloers and it is better to do a good job with group content only than adding some badly made solocontent.
And VG have only a small team, it is not worth putting off all other updates for a long time to create content for soloplayers as well.
One other thing to consider is, how much of the increased stability etc occurred simply due to having 200 people in a world built for 5000? If you were to actually put 5000 people on the server at the same time, how many problems would reassert themselves? Personally I think that is the main reason why SOE hasnt made it FTP -- they KNOW the answer to the question and it is not a good one.
SOE is quietly working on everquest next -- and hopefully it is closer to completion than people think.
Oh and this isnt the only abandonware game SOE has. Even EQOA on the playstation 2 is still running (and has more people than a vanguard server has on the CLW server which is where everyone decided to move. Yep -- everyone who played decided to (without server merges) re-roll on the same server).
SOE actually has quite the list of small population and mid population games.
No I won't get over that.
Being a SoE customer since 2001, now I am a temporary Blizzard customer waiting that something better than WoW comes out (hoping for RIFT)
SWG --> NGE
EQ2 --> WOWNGE
Vanguard ---> Lack of vision
Cash shops + Subscription
I don't think I can ever get over that, but thanks for trying
Many of you are missing the point of what I'm saying.
I've really been studying the lower end side of Vanguard. I could even safely say that I spent more time doing this instead of playing. I don't care much about leveling as much as socializing with other noobs like my self. I'm adding friends that I play with to my friends list, and know who is a vet and who are the noobs. I'm constantly reading over the on-line player base using the social panel tools. I'm talking to the noobs to feel what they are feeling.
To make a long story short I know whats going on, not because I m smart. But because I'm interested ( I guess you can say its like a mini game for me ).
Now with all that....I'm contradicting everything that I assumed.....I've made a mistake, the same mistake many of you are making..... With my many hours of studying I've found the truth.
And the truth is that many are playing this game for the first time. Every day more and more. SO ADVERTISEMENT IS REALLY NOT THE PROBLEM........RETENTION IS........EVERYONE QUITS AFTER THE FIRST MONTH. No one to play with !
The bad launch is not the problem anymore, it's really not.
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While I'm not obsessed with it (I rarely ever think about Vanguard), I swore to myself I would never play this game again because of the launch. It was the one game that I had hoped would fail based on how they released it. And, in my eyes, it basically has failed. There is like one developer keeping it online and it gets zero upgrades.
I was hopeful back then that developers would take notice of the mass exodus and stop releasing piss poor products and expecting to get paid full box price plus sub. They obviously haven't gotten the message yet. FFXIV just came out with a similar level of fail. Now there is a second game that I will never buy and hope that in the end it will fail.
Hopefully games like SW:TOR, GW2 and others have taken notice. Stop giving us sh*t and expecting us to pay you for it.