If daily quests are remotely good end-game content, then we need end-game content like we need a hole in the head. Daily quests are an extremely stupid grind, barely more interesting than just grinding mobs.
Honestly, WoW's endgame leaves a lot to be desired. The game dissolves into a very repetitive grind in general, but Daily Quests are definitely the worst "end-game" grind in the game.
Soloing in a multiplayer game is a contradiction in terms. You can do it, and in modern MMORPGs, you can do it quite efficiently. but player interaction should always be encouraged over solo play. The minute solo play becomes an efficient and fun way to progress through the endgame is the minute that pretty much all forms of group based content pretty much dies.
Story quests are a different beast entirely. Sure, I have no problem with that sort of thing being solo oriented but the problem is most players won't consider that the "endgame" unless it provides them the fastest route to the best gear possible. Again, if solo quests allow players to obtain the best gear, group play will die.
Should they have a endgame like the groupers do? Or should solo players just hit cap, finish out their quests and re-roll?
I would guess that if solo players were blocked from so-called "end game" that most MMO's would probably not be around very long. This is just what we all need is more reason to keep people from playing games..
Out of curiosity, would you also ask that Tie Fighter include a ground game? The game was clearly made with the intention of space combat flight simulator. Asking the game company to overhaul the game just because you want to play it very differently than they intended seems rather silly. Just go out and find another game that suits you better and what you want to do.
Yes, I would expect Tie Fighter to have a ground game at endgame if they've had it through out the game. I'm not asking the game company to reinvent their wheel. I'm asking them to continue to support all the playstyles they've made content for thru the entirety of their game. It doesn't make sense for a game that's had both solo and multi play through 80 levels to then turn into just a multi game or vice versa.
Should there be strictly solo games? Yes. Should there be strictly group games? Yes. Should there be games with options for both? Yes. Should game companies stay loyal to their player base for the entire game? Yes.
Gutlard Out!
Yeah, exactly.
It's not asking the company to reinvent their wheel -- it's asking them to avoid cutting their wheel in half after players have sunk 200 hours into the game.
lol...but you are asking them to redesign their game. There isn't one dungeon offered that is for solo players. Solo experience has always been limited to basic leveling for the reason I specified above (and was omitted from the quotes above). MMORPG has always been about the grouping...by virtue of it's very design. You want a great single player experience? Get Dragonage...a game that is specifically targeted at solo players.
Get over yourselves. The world is not interested in making everything suitable for everybody.
lol...but you are asking them to redesign their game. There isn't one dungeon offered that is for solo players. Solo experience has always been limited to basic leveling for the reason I specified above (and was omitted from the quotes above). MMORPG has always been about the grouping...by virtue of it's very design. You want a great single player experience? Get Dragonage...a game that is specifically targeted at solo players.
Get over yourselves. The world is not interested in making everything suitable for everybody.
No, the MMO hasn't always been about grouping. Ultima Online wasn't all about grouping and I think it's one of the best MMORPGs of all time.
So, when you say that, "MMORPG has always been about the grouping...by virtue of it's very design," you are completely incorrect. There is nothing inherent in MMO to suggest that grouping is required.
If daily quests are remotely good end-game content, then we need end-game content like we need a hole in the head. Daily quests are an extremely stupid grind, barely more interesting than just grinding mobs.
Honestly, WoW's endgame leaves a lot to be desired. The game dissolves into a very repetitive grind in general, but Daily Quests are definitely the worst "end-game" grind in the game.
Soloing in a multiplayer game is a contradiction in terms. You can do it, and in modern MMORPGs, you can do it quite efficiently. but player interaction should always be encouraged over solo play. The minute solo play becomes an efficient and fun way to progress through the endgame is the minute that pretty much all forms of group based content pretty much dies.
Story quests are a different beast entirely. Sure, I have no problem with that sort of thing being solo oriented but the problem is most players won't consider that the "endgame" unless it provides them the fastest route to the best gear possible. Again, if solo quests allow players to obtain the best gear, group play will die.
You know, most multiplayer games ALLOW soloing. They just make doing things with other people more fun. The idea that you must strictly forbid soloing is something you really only see in MMOs, probably because the gameplay there is often lacking and grouping is a painful process. Making sure there is solo-friendly content at all levels keeps a game honest. It makes sure that the grouping part IS fun and engaging, because if it isn't then people won't do it.
The problem here is that MMOs have given into the grindfest mentality, which was admittedly always around. As such they stretch the fun they have as far as possible, and put little gear rewards about to entice people to keep grinding -- more grinding is more sub money since you have to play more, and sub money is largely pure net profit. MMOs leach off the social bonds that people form in these games rather than enabling and empowering friendship AND fun.
This is why you see many MMOs not designed with fun in mind as a core precept above all others. It's why you see forced grouping with wait times of 15 minutes to an hour (and in some even more) to get a group. It's insane and just BAD GAME DESIGN! The only reason people want things to only have group content is out of a mistaken belief somehow that will fix the massive grouping problems in games and the knowledge on some level that the current group mechanics most MMOs have really aren't that fun.
One reason why GW2 looks so good to me is that it isn't going to have a sub, and hence they have far more incentive to actually design a game that's fun from the ground up -- in fact they've said this is part of their thinking. It also reminds me of a recent interview of an MMO developer for AoC who said that a dev should never be thinking about how to MAKE players do something, but rather how to get them to WANT to do something. Group-only advocates forget many of these basic precepts of game design (as do some MMO devs).
What actually HARMS the endgame soloist crafter is No-Drop and bind on acquire. You can amass enough coin to buy a kingdom with your wares but it will not buy you a dragon drop.
As a primary crafter in old games, I was able to buy things like a cloak of flames. In more recent games, an excess of money while nice doesnt allow you to deck yourself out.
Personally I think there should be ways for a soloist to get raid-level gear given enough time and effort and luck.
What actually HARMS the endgame soloist crafter is No-Drop and bind on acquire. You can amass enough coin to buy a kingdom with your wares but it will not buy you a dragon drop.
As a primary crafter in old games, I was able to buy things like a cloak of flames. In more recent games, an excess of money while nice doesnt allow you to deck yourself out.
Personally I think there should be ways for a soloist to get raid-level gear given enough time and effort and luck.
I completely agree. It was one of the things I liked about Lineage 2.
there wasn't "raid gear". There was just "gear". there were a few raid drops that were special but they could be sold to other players.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
What actually HARMS the endgame soloist crafter is No-Drop and bind on acquire. You can amass enough coin to buy a kingdom with your wares but it will not buy you a dragon drop.
As a primary crafter in old games, I was able to buy things like a cloak of flames. In more recent games, an excess of money while nice doesnt allow you to deck yourself out.
Personally I think there should be ways for a soloist to get raid-level gear given enough time and effort and luck.
I completely agree. It was one of the things I liked about Lineage 2.
there wasn't "raid gear". There was just "gear". there were a few raid drops that were special but they could be sold to other players.
No complaints from me. I always thought bind on equip/no-drop/bind on acquire was a terrible idea and remember quite well when they implemented that in EQ2.
What actually HARMS the endgame soloist crafter is No-Drop and bind on acquire. You can amass enough coin to buy a kingdom with your wares but it will not buy you a dragon drop.
As a primary crafter in old games, I was able to buy things like a cloak of flames. In more recent games, an excess of money while nice doesnt allow you to deck yourself out.
Personally I think there should be ways for a soloist to get raid-level gear given enough time and effort and luck.
I completely agree. It was one of the things I liked about Lineage 2.
there wasn't "raid gear". There was just "gear". there were a few raid drops that were special but they could be sold to other players.
No complaints from me. I always thought bind on equip/no-drop/bind on acquire was a terrible idea and remember quite well when they implemented that in EQ2.
and it stifles the economy. If I'm going to spend my time getting great stuff that is "bind" then what motivation do I have to buy from other players?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If that's true, then it is a rather hilarious insult to the intelligence of MMO gamers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
lol...but you are asking them to redesign their game. There isn't one dungeon offered that is for solo players. Solo experience has always been limited to basic leveling for the reason I specified above (and was omitted from the quotes above). MMORPG has always been about the grouping...by virtue of it's very design. You want a great single player experience? Get Dragonage...a game that is specifically targeted at solo players.
Get over yourselves. The world is not interested in making everything suitable for everybody.
"Redesign"? We're talking about single player progression, nothing about that requires a redesign; the entire leveling portion of the game is already the same exact design.
Your perception of intent of the design is irrelevant -- if players want it, it should exist, then they'll play it, and they'll enjoy it. As many others have mentioned, soloing in a MMO is very different than soloing in a singleplayer game, and many players want exactly that experience.
Nobody really cares about genre definitions anyway.
"Oh man, this game is a blast. Whoa did you see that!? Awesome!"
"You realize it's not actually a MMO right?"
"OH MY GOD YOU'RE RIGHT! THIS GAME SUCKS, I'M UNINSTALLING IT! SUCH BULLCRAP!"
No that's not how it works at all. Players like fun. If a game is fun, they play it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What actually HARMS the endgame soloist crafter is No-Drop and bind on acquire. You can amass enough coin to buy a kingdom with your wares but it will not buy you a dragon drop.
As a primary crafter in old games, I was able to buy things like a cloak of flames. In more recent games, an excess of money while nice doesnt allow you to deck yourself out.
Personally I think there should be ways for a soloist to get raid-level gear given enough time and effort and luck.
I completely agree. It was one of the things I liked about Lineage 2.
there wasn't "raid gear". There was just "gear". there were a few raid drops that were special but they could be sold to other players.
No complaints from me. I always thought bind on equip/no-drop/bind on acquire was a terrible idea and remember quite well when they implemented that in EQ2.
and it stifles the economy. If I'm going to spend my time getting great stuff that is "bind" then what motivation do I have to buy from other players?
I believe the reasoning behind all that in EQ2 was certainly economy related, but I think the "issue" there was players were flooding the markets with crafted armor after they out-leveled it, so prices were driven incredibly low and players who actually made that armor were not able to see much of a profit.
Always thought that reminded me of buying college textbooks in that by selling the out-leveled gear to merchants, you get back way less than what you paid for those items originally.
They should come out with an mmo that lets you solo from start through finish experiencing all the content he game has to offer. Oh wait, they already do. Its called... every other video game genre in existence.
Should they have a endgame like the groupers do? Or should solo players just hit cap, finish out their quests and re-roll?
It is an MMO massively mulitplayer online game. Why the hell would you want to constantly solo? Pick a different game genre if you want solo stuff. The idea of solo player endgame content is beyond idiotic. Make a friend (i know it must be very hard to do for some nerds) and play with people or gtfo plain and simple.
The entire premise of this thread is foolish, like solo players in MMO's are somehow second class citizens. In the end, the game companies don't care. A solo player's money spends the same as a perennial grouper. And they want both players money. Just like all the other so-called "divisions" in MMO's: PvE vs PvP, sandbox vs themepark, casual vs hardcore, etc, game companies try and find a mix of these various aspects that will yield the highest overall number of customers. MMO's are now mainstream and big business. No large company and most small companies are not going to make niche game that deliberately excludes potential customers. That means no PvE only, no forced grouping only, etc. The genre now has too many fans (or in game company terms; "resource nodes 'O cash") in each of these interest groups to ignore.
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
If that's true, then it is a rather hilarious insult to the intelligence of MMO gamers.
But isnt that what endgame is? You hit cap and then you continue to grow or progress your character (usually through gear)
If an expansion drops you level back to cap and continue to progress your character again.
It's crappy but the majority of the games work like this.
That may be 'endgame' for you, but not everyone. What you present would be better described as 'different game' than 'end game.'
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think that there should be equal amounts to do endgame for soloers or groupers to make sure no one is alienated. Dev's have to find the equal balance between the two to stay popular
But there are alreay tons of those games with end game for soloers, its called single player games.
the last thing devs should worry about imo is solo content in an MMO, they should focus to get the M's back in MMO instead
but thats my opinion ofcourse
So soloists should just leave the mmo genre instead of just tossing then a bone and creating them some endgame stuff to do? That's kinda messed up. The rpg genre is totally different and even for a solo player doesnt offer the same experience.
I don't think that is messed up and I actually agree. The whole point of a MMO is to play with other players and not to play by ones self. If they start allowing solo players to get end-game gear and be on par with group play. That just destroys the whole point to the MMO genre. Everyone needs to start to agreeing that MMO's are meant to be played with other players (groups). If not I am afraid that MMO's will go the way of single player games, in other words they will be come a ORPG. (Online Role Playing Game)
rambling: You know the whole point of having an mmo is wanting a different type of play from single player games. MMORPGs are unique as they allow you to group up with other players in a persistent world. They are not there to allow you to do the same thing as a single player game except there are other people around you. They are there to allow you to interact with other people, play with other people, help other people, receive help from other people, work together with other people, and progress with other people. If mmorpgs are meant to be a niche crowd so be it.
Underlined is where I agree completly, but.....I wish people would get it out of their heads that MMORPG's only offers interaction in form of grouping, MMORPG can or could offer allot more interaction where grouping can just be one part of that. To me a MMORPG should offer options, but it also needs a community that can accept certain aspect of it, as example understand that due to a certain playstyle you may not get acces to all game content, while another playstyle might get you acces to all game content. The YOU is commonly speaking and not directed towards you Joker2240 . But the problem these day's is that regardless one's playstyle it seems many can not accept they might not have acces to all content.
Absolutely yes. While I don't support the too heavy soloablity of MMOs these days, I generally think every playstyle should have equal chances. Or maybe allow solo players who don't have time or will for groups or raids to get NPC companions.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I mean last time i checked it just meant i ran around with a bunch of other people in the same game world.
Why would I want to play alone in a world full of other people? I would much rather have a world where everything is challenge and requires teamwork.
Exactly, I love playing multiplayer games.
So everything should be specifically designed for you? I pay 15$ a month, I want as much from that as possible, being able to play only when others are around is not an option I'd accept in a game. There are plenty of instances where I can't get on until well after guild members are long gone. At end game ( i personally hate that term), I want to be able to play when ever I want, and under any circumstance.
There are also times I want to play, yet don't feel like grouping or dealing with orders or others objectives. That's why I solo PVP a lot at max. There really isn't much else to do that interests me in MMO's when I don't feel like grouping.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I don't think that is messed up and I actually agree. The whole point of a MMO is to play with other players and not to play by ones self. If they start allowing solo players to get end-game gear and be on par with group play. That just destroys the whole point to the MMO genre. Everyone needs to start to agreeing that MMO's are meant to be played with other players (groups). If not I am afraid that MMO's will go the way of single player games, in other words they will be come a ORPG. (Online Role Playing Game)
rambling: You know the whole point of having an mmo is wanting a different type of play from single player games. MMORPGs are unique as they allow you to group up with other players in a persistent world. They are not there to allow you to do the same thing as a single player game except there are other people around you. They are there to allow you to interact with other people, play with other people, help other people, receive help from other people, work together with other people, and progress with other people. If mmorpgs are meant to be a niche crowd so be it.
Underlined is where I agree completly, but.....I wish people would get it out of their heads that MMORPG's only offers interaction in form of grouping, MMORPG can or could offer allot more interaction where grouping can just be one part of that. To me a MMORPG should offer options, but it also needs a community that can accept certain aspect of it, as example understand that due to a certain playstyle you may not get acces to all game content, while another playstyle might get you acces to all game content. The YOU is commonly speaking and not directed towards you Joker2240 . But the problem these day's is that regardless one's playstyle it seems many can not accept they might not have acces to all content.
I think we're basically on the same page from reading this post. I don't mind solo content; I do however find it silly that some people seem to want to play MMOs in a way that never involves working with other people.
Not everyone can play for hours at a time (though not all games require this and I still think someone needs to develope asynchronous gameplay interaction).
Not everyone always feels like grouping.
Not everyone is on at "peak" times.
some folks prefer non grouping interaction.
The list goes on though this solo-group argument is better than that lawsuit against that moive the Neverending Story...
To answer the OP, generally yes, solo players should have an endgame that offers gear progression. Or, have no BoP gear. This way raiders can choose to trade or give away their gear if they want to. But this is if, and only if they want to keep soloers as customers. Some devs don't really want soloers to have PvE gear progression. But I think there are some that do and all we have to do is wait for those games to come out. We have to keep voicing our needs to let them know we are out there and eager to give them our money in the meantime.
I respect the devs of any mmorpgs right to disregard and block the gear progression of PvE soloers. It's their game after all. And there is no harm in making group only endgames or completely group-centric mmorpgs. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy these games against their will (I sincerely hope). But, and this is a fact, there is also no harm in devs making games that reward raiders and groupers and soloers equally in terms of character power and their is no harm is them making outright solo-centric mmorpgs where soloing reigns supreme from beginning to end. And again if such games (like GW2 for example) were to be made, nobody (hopefully) will ever force you to buy labor for or invest in those games. So, no harm, no foul right?
I don't understand why so few raiders realize it's just a difference in personal entertainment preference. When soloers talk about the kind of game they wish to play they are not trying to hurt raiders or wish bad things upon them. They just want a quality fun mmorpg that they are happy to financially support for many years just like them. I repeat, we mean you no harm or hostility. We are just a little different.
I have a feeling though that publishers are beginning to realize how potentially profitable an mmorpg catering to soloers and small groupers can be. Games are getting increasingly solo friendly and are gradually moving towards solo equality (like GW2) and if that movement continued, eventually some great solo-centric mmorpgs will come out. I'll be happy with solo equality, I actually do enjoy small group
(like 5 player, although I hate how most games punish you for grouping by giving you less xp and loot, and punishes you for helping someone else kill something by giving you no xp because the mob was "tagged" which discourages grouping)
stuff more than solo stuff, but I just like to solo effectively when My friends are not on. I actually like fighting mobs that require massive numbers of players to defeat as well that drop better loot, I just hate for them to be locked away in private raid instances. I like how in GW2 the giant dragon that takes dozens of people to beat is out in the open where everybody can get him.
Comments
I would guess that if solo players were blocked from so-called "end game" that most MMO's would probably not be around very long. This is just what we all need is more reason to keep people from playing games..
Let's party like it is 1863!
lol...but you are asking them to redesign their game. There isn't one dungeon offered that is for solo players. Solo experience has always been limited to basic leveling for the reason I specified above (and was omitted from the quotes above). MMORPG has always been about the grouping...by virtue of it's very design. You want a great single player experience? Get Dragonage...a game that is specifically targeted at solo players.
Get over yourselves. The world is not interested in making everything suitable for everybody.
No, the MMO hasn't always been about grouping. Ultima Online wasn't all about grouping and I think it's one of the best MMORPGs of all time.
So, when you say that, "MMORPG has always been about the grouping...by virtue of it's very design," you are completely incorrect. There is nothing inherent in MMO to suggest that grouping is required.
You know, most multiplayer games ALLOW soloing. They just make doing things with other people more fun. The idea that you must strictly forbid soloing is something you really only see in MMOs, probably because the gameplay there is often lacking and grouping is a painful process. Making sure there is solo-friendly content at all levels keeps a game honest. It makes sure that the grouping part IS fun and engaging, because if it isn't then people won't do it.
The problem here is that MMOs have given into the grindfest mentality, which was admittedly always around. As such they stretch the fun they have as far as possible, and put little gear rewards about to entice people to keep grinding -- more grinding is more sub money since you have to play more, and sub money is largely pure net profit. MMOs leach off the social bonds that people form in these games rather than enabling and empowering friendship AND fun.
This is why you see many MMOs not designed with fun in mind as a core precept above all others. It's why you see forced grouping with wait times of 15 minutes to an hour (and in some even more) to get a group. It's insane and just BAD GAME DESIGN! The only reason people want things to only have group content is out of a mistaken belief somehow that will fix the massive grouping problems in games and the knowledge on some level that the current group mechanics most MMOs have really aren't that fun.
One reason why GW2 looks so good to me is that it isn't going to have a sub, and hence they have far more incentive to actually design a game that's fun from the ground up -- in fact they've said this is part of their thinking. It also reminds me of a recent interview of an MMO developer for AoC who said that a dev should never be thinking about how to MAKE players do something, but rather how to get them to WANT to do something. Group-only advocates forget many of these basic precepts of game design (as do some MMO devs).
What actually HARMS the endgame soloist crafter is No-Drop and bind on acquire. You can amass enough coin to buy a kingdom with your wares but it will not buy you a dragon drop.
As a primary crafter in old games, I was able to buy things like a cloak of flames. In more recent games, an excess of money while nice doesnt allow you to deck yourself out.
Personally I think there should be ways for a soloist to get raid-level gear given enough time and effort and luck.
I completely agree. It was one of the things I liked about Lineage 2.
there wasn't "raid gear". There was just "gear". there were a few raid drops that were special but they could be sold to other players.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
No complaints from me. I always thought bind on equip/no-drop/bind on acquire was a terrible idea and remember quite well when they implemented that in EQ2.
and it stifles the economy. If I'm going to spend my time getting great stuff that is "bind" then what motivation do I have to buy from other players?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
If that's true, then it is a rather hilarious insult to the intelligence of MMO gamers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"Redesign"? We're talking about single player progression, nothing about that requires a redesign; the entire leveling portion of the game is already the same exact design.
Your perception of intent of the design is irrelevant -- if players want it, it should exist, then they'll play it, and they'll enjoy it. As many others have mentioned, soloing in a MMO is very different than soloing in a singleplayer game, and many players want exactly that experience.
Nobody really cares about genre definitions anyway.
"Oh man, this game is a blast. Whoa did you see that!? Awesome!"
"You realize it's not actually a MMO right?"
"OH MY GOD YOU'RE RIGHT! THIS GAME SUCKS, I'M UNINSTALLING IT! SUCH BULLCRAP!"
No that's not how it works at all. Players like fun. If a game is fun, they play it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I believe the reasoning behind all that in EQ2 was certainly economy related, but I think the "issue" there was players were flooding the markets with crafted armor after they out-leveled it, so prices were driven incredibly low and players who actually made that armor were not able to see much of a profit.
Always thought that reminded me of buying college textbooks in that by selling the out-leveled gear to merchants, you get back way less than what you paid for those items originally.
But isnt that what endgame is? You hit cap and then you continue to grow or progress your character (usually through gear)
If an expansion drops you level back to cap and continue to progress your character again.
It's crappy but the majority of the games work like this.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I didn't read the entire thread, but "endgame" means something different from teh "game".
If you're still solo, then what's different at the "end"?
If you're questing, mob camping, dungeon crawling, crafting, that's just more "game".
That's not "end game".
I guess you could do a PvP endgame that was solo based, not group or guild.
They should come out with an mmo that lets you solo from start through finish experiencing all the content he game has to offer. Oh wait, they already do. Its called... every other video game genre in existence.
It is an MMO massively mulitplayer online game. Why the hell would you want to constantly solo? Pick a different game genre if you want solo stuff. The idea of solo player endgame content is beyond idiotic. Make a friend (i know it must be very hard to do for some nerds) and play with people or gtfo plain and simple.
The entire premise of this thread is foolish, like solo players in MMO's are somehow second class citizens. In the end, the game companies don't care. A solo player's money spends the same as a perennial grouper. And they want both players money. Just like all the other so-called "divisions" in MMO's: PvE vs PvP, sandbox vs themepark, casual vs hardcore, etc, game companies try and find a mix of these various aspects that will yield the highest overall number of customers. MMO's are now mainstream and big business. No large company and most small companies are not going to make niche game that deliberately excludes potential customers. That means no PvE only, no forced grouping only, etc. The genre now has too many fans (or in game company terms; "resource nodes 'O cash") in each of these interest groups to ignore.
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
~Omar Khayyam
That may be 'endgame' for you, but not everyone. What you present would be better described as 'different game' than 'end game.'
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Underlined is where I agree completly, but.....I wish people would get it out of their heads that MMORPG's only offers interaction in form of grouping, MMORPG can or could offer allot more interaction where grouping can just be one part of that. To me a MMORPG should offer options, but it also needs a community that can accept certain aspect of it, as example understand that due to a certain playstyle you may not get acces to all game content, while another playstyle might get you acces to all game content. The YOU is commonly speaking and not directed towards you Joker2240
. But the problem these day's is that regardless one's playstyle it seems many can not accept they might not have acces to all content.
Absolutely yes. While I don't support the too heavy soloablity of MMOs these days, I generally think every playstyle should have equal chances. Or maybe allow solo players who don't have time or will for groups or raids to get NPC companions.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
So everything should be specifically designed for you? I pay 15$ a month, I want as much from that as possible, being able to play only when others are around is not an option I'd accept in a game. There are plenty of instances where I can't get on until well after guild members are long gone. At end game ( i personally hate that term), I want to be able to play when ever I want, and under any circumstance.
There are also times I want to play, yet don't feel like grouping or dealing with orders or others objectives. That's why I solo PVP a lot at max. There really isn't much else to do that interests me in MMO's when I don't feel like grouping.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think we're basically on the same page from reading this post. I don't mind solo content; I do however find it silly that some people seem to want to play MMOs in a way that never involves working with other people.
If they want to make more money.. then yes.
Not everyone can play for hours at a time (though not all games require this and I still think someone needs to develope asynchronous gameplay interaction).
Not everyone always feels like grouping.
Not everyone is on at "peak" times.
some folks prefer non grouping interaction.
The list goes on though this solo-group argument is better than that lawsuit against that moive the Neverending Story...
I think it is when you are at max level with the best gear possible and have seen all there is to see.
I don't however think that there really is a endgame in an MMORPG but I guess that it's hard for the counterstrikers to wrap their heads around that.
To answer the OP, generally yes, solo players should have an endgame that offers gear progression. Or, have no BoP gear. This way raiders can choose to trade or give away their gear if they want to. But this is if, and only if they want to keep soloers as customers. Some devs don't really want soloers to have PvE gear progression. But I think there are some that do and all we have to do is wait for those games to come out. We have to keep voicing our needs to let them know we are out there and eager to give them our money in the meantime.
I respect the devs of any mmorpgs right to disregard and block the gear progression of PvE soloers. It's their game after all. And there is no harm in making group only endgames or completely group-centric mmorpgs. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy these games against their will (I sincerely hope). But, and this is a fact, there is also no harm in devs making games that reward raiders and groupers and soloers equally in terms of character power and their is no harm is them making outright solo-centric mmorpgs where soloing reigns supreme from beginning to end. And again if such games (like GW2 for example) were to be made, nobody (hopefully) will ever force you to buy labor for or invest in those games. So, no harm, no foul right?
I don't understand why so few raiders realize it's just a difference in personal entertainment preference. When soloers talk about the kind of game they wish to play they are not trying to hurt raiders or wish bad things upon them. They just want a quality fun mmorpg that they are happy to financially support for many years just like them. I repeat, we mean you no harm or hostility. We are just a little different.
I have a feeling though that publishers are beginning to realize how potentially profitable an mmorpg catering to soloers and small groupers can be. Games are getting increasingly solo friendly and are gradually moving towards solo equality (like GW2) and if that movement continued, eventually some great solo-centric mmorpgs will come out. I'll be happy with solo equality, I actually do enjoy small group
(like 5 player, although I hate how most games punish you for grouping by giving you less xp and loot, and punishes you for helping someone else kill something by giving you no xp because the mob was "tagged" which discourages grouping)
stuff more than solo stuff, but I just like to solo effectively when My friends are not on. I actually like fighting mobs that require massive numbers of players to defeat as well that drop better loot, I just hate for them to be locked away in private raid instances. I like how in GW2 the giant dragon that takes dozens of people to beat is out in the open where everybody can get him.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion