But my point is that these players are solely interested in WoW, they are not looking to necessarily experience a new game unless that new game has some sort of built in draw that puts it in the public eye. They aren't gamers. Some might become "gamers" but some are just into wow.
edit: and yes, the wii is a cultural phenomenom. Can someone duplicate its popularity? We'll see. I do know a friend who never would ever buy a console but she did buy a wii and loves it.
That's how it works, people who never before would be interested in a thing suddenly get drawn into something because it hits the right nerve.
I think you are making arbitrary distinctions and trying to "magic up" stuff by describing them as "cultural phenomenons" and hence outside the realm of rational analysis. You do that with your friend who doesn't play on consoles....who IS playing on a console, thereby immediately invalidating your descriptor for her. Yes, she didn't play on them once, but figuring out why she is playing on one can explain what sort of future console experience she'd enjoy. I'd wager it has something to do with the ease of the Wii's interface and being marketed at non-hard-core gamers. You are brushing such a rational analysis aside for no reason.
Similarly, there are reasons why WoW is doing so well. Painting it as a cultural phenomenon doesn't explain them at all. It doesn't explain why it is so popular, and in fact implies it is far more popular than it actually is (the vast, vast, vast majority of Americans, for instance, have not played WoW and never will, heck, even if every sub was an American that's not even a third of one percent of the population...that's not many people). Contrast that to the Wii, which has over 30 million U.S. sales (and you can bet that on average more than one person plays a given Wii that is bought). WoW is just a popular game. It happens to be the most popular MMO because it is polished, has a good amount of content, has good marketing, and has an easy interface for people who have never played an MMO. Some of those aspects snowballed a bit and brought in more people. It is NOT some sort of magical wonder, however.
Calling something a "cultural phenomenon" is just an excuse to not think.
the thing is, the reason WoW has so many subs its because its simply the best MMO out there.
but, lets take a look at some other MMOs put out semi recently
city of heroes/villains.
age of conan
warhammer online.
champions online.
why did these games fail? not because WoW is such a great game. but because they, simply, sucked. what WoW did do is it raised the standard for MMOs. if WoW never exsisted and we had nothing like it to compare these games too? i believe each one of them would of been a huge success. the problem is people look at WoW, then they compare these games to it and, really. there is no comparison because these games all sucked in their own special way.
no, i dont think any game will completely kill wow. i do however think that if anyone has a good shot at doing it at all. its either going to be DCU online, or SW:TOR. they've both insanely popular IPs, being handled by two very well known companys with atlest decent track records.
another thing you have to take into account, is this isnt simply a "starwars MMO", its a knights of the old republic MMO. easily one of the greatest starwars games ever. try not to think of this as an MMO. think of it as a KTOR game that just happens to be online and it will probably be a major success.
Playing Nothing waiting for The secret world Played WoW, DCU online, star wars: the old republic, city of heroes, city of villains, everquest, plenty more I'm probably forgetting or aren't worth noting.
But my point is that these players are solely interested in WoW, they are not looking to necessarily experience a new game unless that new game has some sort of built in draw that puts it in the public eye. They aren't gamers. Some might become "gamers" but some are just into wow.
edit: and yes, the wii is a cultural phenomenom. Can someone duplicate its popularity? We'll see. I do know a friend who never would ever buy a console but she did buy a wii and loves it.
That's how it works, people who never before would be interested in a thing suddenly get drawn into something because it hits the right nerve.
I think you are making arbitrary distinctions and trying to "magic up" stuff by describing them as "cultural phenomenons" and hence outside the realm of rational analysis. You do that with your friend who doesn't play on consoles....who IS playing on a console, thereby immediately invalidating your descriptor for her. Yes, she didn't play on them once, but figuring out why she is playing on one can explain what sort of future console experience she'd enjoy. I'd wager it has something to do with the ease of the Wii's interface and being marketed at non-hard-core gamers. You are brushing such a rational analysis aside for no reason.
Similarly, there are reasons why WoW is doing so well. Painting it as a cultural phenomenon doesn't explain them at all. It doesn't explain why it is so popular, and in fact implies it is far more popular than it actually is (the vast, vast, vast majority of Americans, for instance, have not played WoW and never will, heck, even if every sub was an American that's not even a third of one percent of the population...that's not many people). Contrast that to the Wii, which has over 30 million U.S. sales (and you can bet that on average more than one person plays a given Wii that is bought). WoW is just a popular game. It happens to be the most popular MMO because it is polished, has a good amount of content, has good marketing, and has an easy interface for people who have never played an MMO. Some of those aspects snowballed a bit and brought in more people. It is NOT some sort of magical wonder, however.
Calling something a "cultural phenomenon" is just an excuse to not think.
And not wanting it to be a cultural phenomenon doesn't exactly give you an excuse to not think. I think you need to revisit what a cultural phenomenom is.
A cultural phenomenon is something that grows far larger than could have been anticipated and draws in people who never before would have considered being drawn into it. It has to do with the right thing at the right time sparking the right type of interest.
Regardless of how it got there. It doesn't matter the explanation. It just has to be noted to be something that has hit "big".
And as far as the wii, sure using my friend as an example it most definitely paints a picture of what sort of console experience she would enjoy. But given the explosion of the wii and that there are people who have friends doing it therefore they are trying it and getting hooked, well 'yadda yadda yadda" you have a cultural phenomenom. It's not "magic' and no one is saying it is.
All a phenomenom is "is" a thing that is noticed to be different than the norm in a certain period of time or certain instance. Doesn't matter how it got there. WoW was different than the norm, even though it capitalized on what went before. But it captured the imaginations of some who then told others who then told others and then the marketing. Then Bam umpteen million subs and it's now being marketed on TV and movies and it's suddenly in the cultural mainstream. Yes, it is one of the most put together games out there and due to it's popularity it has gathered quite amount of subs. But no one would have expected it to grow to the size that is has grown today.
the Beatles and Elvis are also cultural phenomena and yes they were also marketed well and yes they also did what they did extremely well. Still doesn't mitigate that they were cultural phenomena.
As far as staying on topic, I see no reason why SWToR won't generate the same type of hype and excitement as today's wow. Only difference is that precedent has been set that it is indeed possible for a game to capture so many people. Whether SWToR can do the same only time will tell.
It will get them, whether they stay is another thing entirely.
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And not wanting it to be a cultural phenomenon doesn't exactly give you an excuse to not think. I think you need to revisit what a cultural phenomenom is.
A cultural phenomenon is something that grows far larger than could have been anticipated and draws in people who never before would have considered being drawn into it. It has to do with the right thing at the right time sparking the right type of interest.
Regardless of how it got there. It doesn't matter the explanation. It just has to be noted to be something that has hit "big".
And as far as the wii, sure using my friend as an example it most definitely paints a picture of what sort of console experience she would enjoy. But given the explosion of the wii and that there are people who have friends doing it therefore they are trying it and getting hooked, well 'yadda yadda yadda" you have a cultural phenomenom. It's not "magic' and no one is saying it is.
All a phenomenom is "is" a thing that is noticed to be different than the norm in a certain period of time or certain instance. Doesn't matter how it got there. WoW was different than the norm, even though it capitalized on what went before. But it captured the imaginations of some who then told others who then told others and then the marketing. Then Bam umpteen million subs and it's now being marketed on TV and movies and it's suddenly in the cultural mainstream. Yes, it is one of the most put together games out there and due to it's popularity it has gathered quite amount of subs. But no one would have expected it to grow to the size that is has grown today.
the Beatles and Elvis are also cultural phenomena and yes they were also marketed well and yes they also did what they did extremely well. Still doesn't mitigate that they were cultural phenomena.
As far as staying on topic, I see no reason why SWToR won't generate the same type of hype and excitement as today's wow. Only difference is that precedent has been set that it is indeed possible for a game to capture so many people. Whether SWToR can do the same only time will tell.
It will get them, whether they stay is another thing entirely.
I think you have some sloppy defintions here. A "cultural phenomenon" (CP from here on out) is most definitely NOT something that does better than you'd think. For one, that covers me selling pet rocks or something and expecting to sell 20, and instead selling 200. Definitely NOT a CP there. For another, it means that if 20 years from now we understand society better due to advances in psychology and economics, then CPs could disappear because we'd be able to look at a new product and predict it would do well. Is it something that's just different from the norm in terms of success then? No, because my pet rock thing would then be a CP if I sold 200 and everyone else just sold a handful. Is it anything that manages to become somewhat well known so that if you mention it to someone they've probably heard of it? Well, at the risk of belaboring a point, pet rocks are well known enough so that most know of them, but I wouldn't call them a CP either. Certainly historical facts can be well-known, but even if we confine ourselves to products I don't think this fits -- is pepsi a CP? I'd say not (nor would I say Coke is either).
Now, let us propose it is something that, as you also say, "is big."
Is WoW big on a cultural level? Well, 12 million subs worldwide is certainly big for an MMO. It is NOT, however, big culturally. It is, in fact, pretty dang small. The Beatles were far, far, far, far, far larger as a counterpoint. WoW is not something that has taken any country by storm. Heck, it hasn't even taken the gaming world by storm, since many, many, many games outperform it in terms of box sales (or consoles, such as the Wii's 30 million sales in the US alone -- though the PS2 and Xbox have good sales as well). So no, I don't see how you can say it is a cultural phenomenon with a straight face. It's pretty ridiculous.
The only thing surprising about WoW's success in the MMO market is the fact that no decent competition has ever appeared. This isn't because WoW has some sort of mysterious power. Warhammer and Age of Conan both could have gained millions of subs -- and there are other games beyond just those two. The problem is the main competition completely sucked at release and hence WoW doesn't have any good competitors...it kind of operates like a monopoly, which is why you don't see it trying to mimic innovative ideas other MMOs have (like LOTRO's randomized PvE stuff). Heck, I wouldn't even say WoW's success is surprising if you take into account the extremely weak competition.
Anyhow, WoW's certainly doing well for an MMO, but just because it has some adds and such doesn't make it a CP anymore than Twix are a CP. It wouldn't be hard for another MMO to do as well and it would be quite possible to do even better. They just have to not be loaded down by major issues from day one.
Wow made around $ 6 billion dollars in 6 years of its existence. That's more than 3 times the best selling movie ever (Ttitanic). That's more than the complete franchise of all Call of Duty games on all platforms in 5 years combined.
That's unique in the history of video gaming. That's unique in the history of the audio visual market. One single game.
Sometimes people simply have no clue.
In the end success is measured in pure and simple US dollars.
EA just wants a piece of that pie. It will be a small piece, no doubts about that.
Why? EA doesn't make a game like Blizzard did 6 years ago ...: they make a product to share the money cow.
A big difference ... That's why those others failed too btw.
Greed. These guys no longer publish games: they want to sell subscriptions or cash shop items.
They just want to print money in EVERY way imaginable (see the sol called "free" to play market).
Blizzard stumbled on it by accident. Since then every product was launched immaturely to "grab the money".
Wow made around $ 6 billion dollars in 6 years of its existence. That's more than 3 times the best selling movie ever (Ttitanic). That's more than the complete franchise of all Call of Duty games on all platforms in 5 years combined.
That's unique in the history of video gaming. That's unique in the history of the audio visual market. One single game.
Sometimes people simply have no clue.
In the end success is measured in pure and simple US dollars.
EA just wants a piece of that pie. It will be a small piece, no doubts about that.
Why? EA doesn't make a game like Blizzard did 6 years ago ...: they make a product to share the money cow.
A big difference ... That's why those others failed too btw.
Now you can imagine how many fools exist in the whole world that pay per month for a game.
With so many fools around theres a prety good chance that i can milk them some money using other means.
One big thx to Blizz that revealed how many idiots exist that they waste their lives playing a game and even more they pay per month for it.hahahahahahaha
Wow made around $ 6 billion dollars in 6 years of its existence. That's more than 3 times the best selling movie ever (Ttitanic). That's more than the complete franchise of all Call of Duty games on all platforms in 5 years combined.
That's unique in the history of video gaming. That's unique in the history of the audio visual market. One single game.
Sometimes people simply have no clue.
In the end success is measured in pure and simple US dollars.
EA just wants a piece of that pie. It will be a small piece, no doubts about that.
Why? EA doesn't make a game like Blizzard did 6 years ago ...: they make a product to share the money cow.
A big difference ... That's why those others failed too btw.
Now you can imagine how many fools exist in the whole world that pay per month for a game.
With so many fools around theres a prety good chance that i can milk them some money using other means.
One big thx to Blizz that revealed how many idiots exist that they waste their lives playing a game and even more they pay per month for it.hahahahahahaha
Ty for putting out you didn't understand ONE bit of my message.
No hard feelings: all those other publishers of MMo's had no clue either.
Simply put: the public isn't made out of idiots....
SWG was about 100K shy of 1 million when it released and there are certainly more MMO players now then there was then. Bioaware also has a built in player base due to the success ot the previous KotOR games; which is a huge advantage. The one diadvantage I would say SWTOR has over SWG is that I don't think the Star Wars brand is as strong now as it was then. However, I would be surprised if they don't make well over a million box sales given the sale numbers of the previouse KotOR games. I think the real question is how long can they can maintain the sub-numbers.
SWG was about 100K shy of 1 million when it released and there are certainly more MMO players now then there was then. Bioaware also has a built in player base due to the success ot the previous KotOR games; which is a huge advantage. The one diadvantage I would say SWTOR has over SWG is that I don't think the Star Wars brand is as strong now as it was then. However, I would be surprised if they don't make well over a million box sales given the sale numbers of the previouse KotOR games. I think the real question is how long can they can maintain the sub-numbers.
This , however, do to the utter lack of new mmos if they get it out before terra/gw2/and rift they should see large numbers. But i doubt they keep half for over a year if they hit 1 mill.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Silly ppl, If wow is compared to a social networking site it's going to have to be Myspace. TOR will be Facebook. It simply can't fail. Even if it is Mediocre.
Take Avatar. That movie by James Cameron. Most average movie ever. What made it stand out? 3D
Voiceover to MMOs is what 3D is to movies. The big Whoa moments.
I'm calling it right here right now. this is going to be huge. You can talk crap about it all you want, you can pretend to be "logical" and crap like that. But this is going to be big.
Deny it all you want, this game will bring WoW to its knees. won't kill it, but there will finally be a competitor.
Wow made around $ 6 billion dollars in 6 years of its existence. That's more than 3 times the best selling movie ever (Ttitanic). That's more than the complete franchise of all Call of Duty games on all platforms in 5 years combined.
That's unique in the history of video gaming. That's unique in the history of the audio visual market. One single game.
Sometimes people simply have no clue.
That's because it has a successful business model that grabs a lot of money out of people, especially compared to what it delivers -- sub games are all insane this way. It doesn't mean more people have played it than have played all Call of Duty games -- they've had 55 MILLION sales and that's pretty darn good. Comparing a sub game to a non-sub game doesn't make any sense.
It's certainly not unique in the audio-visual market. You know what's more successful? Cable TV -- and that's a more legitimate comparison because it ALSO has a monthly fee. One could then consider various cable only channels, if one wanted or Netflix (which has over 10 million subs now, and has been active since 1997). Of course, the audio-visual market is really to large a beast to look at in such a simplistic manner as there are way too many products and business models to lump them all together.
In any case, WoW certainly isn't some kind of great Cultural Phenomenon. Relative to the whole population of the U.S. it isn't played much here (and the same is true of other countries).
If anything, WoW and other sub games are an example of just how easy to screw gamers it is. Most of the sub fee is pure profit, and MMOs definitely don't deliver content that justifies the massive sub expense. It isn't like WoW has the new content of 3 major games every year.....it's not even one. Most of the new content you have to pay additional money for. The more you look at it, the more it is clear subs at probably the greatest gaming rip-off ever.
I completely agree with Sovrath, wow like facebook games have drawn many non-gamers. No! someone does not become a game by simply playing 1 game, if there were more real gamers outside we wouldnt have that many crappy videogames coming out that are only based on marketing and nothing else... Most of those ppl have no opininon about any game, they are driven from marketing and carrot on a stick gameplay, They dont care if a game is good or not, they just have fun. And noobs can have fun even in the most unbalanced game.
Hm, an admirable boldness for sure. I can respect the undertaking to make something big and use much money. I guess the names alone will at least make it break even. But if it lasts is something entirely different. Most people are going to buy the box for sure. If they stay beyond rushing through 1-2 stories, that is the question. How long the lasting appeal will be for a gamer is what worries me, not that Bioware doesn't break even.
I guess they sell between 2 and 5 million boxes in the first few months, but it will likely drop after some months when people saw the story. In EVERY single MMO gamers always rushed through content considerably faster and easier than developers expected.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Currently as of the last census there are 6,877,200,000 people in the world TOR needs 1M thats about like .6 percent of the population. Granted this is the entire world but i think SW is pretty big that even bumping that number up makes it possible to get 1M easy. If they can do it well.
if 33% of that 1M comes from BW fans
another 33% comes from star wars fans
then all they gotta make up is 34%of that population in regular fans of MMOs. they will get the first two parts pretty easy. it's this last part they have to get that is any kind of challenge. If they make their game as well as they are saying it will be then i don't see this has too much of a hurdle to overcome.
Personally myself I think they can do this, if they have 4 servers with 250K on each server they can get that 1M.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Currently as of the last census there are 6,877,200,000 people in the world TOR needs 1M thats about like .6 percent of the population. Granted this is the entire world but i think SW is pretty big that even bumping that number up makes it possible to get 1M easy. If they can do it well.
Wow made around $ 6 billion dollars in 6 years of its existence. That's more than 3 times the best selling movie ever (Ttitanic). That's more than the complete franchise of all Call of Duty games on all platforms in 5 years combined.
That's unique in the history of video gaming. That's unique in the history of the audio visual market. One single game.
Sometimes people simply have no clue.
In the end success is measured in pure and simple US dollars.
EA just wants a piece of that pie. It will be a small piece, no doubts about that.
Why? EA doesn't make a game like Blizzard did 6 years ago ...: they make a product to share the money cow.
A big difference ... That's why those others failed too btw.
Now you can imagine how many fools exist in the whole world that pay per month for a game.
With so many fools around theres a prety good chance that i can milk them some money using other means.
One big thx to Blizz that revealed how many idiots exist that they waste their lives playing a game and even more they pay per month for it.hahahahahahaha
Ty for putting out you didn't understand ONE bit of my message.
No hard feelings: all those other publishers of MMo's had no clue either.
Simply put: the public isn't made out of idiots....
Actually the public can be made to be idiots and make idiotic decisions. Case in point: who was dumber, George Bush for believing there were WMD's in Iraq even though the State Department didn't believe in the intel initially or the general public who supported it and called individuals that questioned the motives and moves for going to war as "unpatriotic". So yes, the public can be made into fools and idiots without either accepting or realizing it.
And to be fairer in the general sense of mmo game history, WoW didn't just "pop" up and become a success, it built its name on the history of Starcraft and Diablo and implemented game dynamics that worked for other mmo's in a market place that had little competition at the time.
Saying other publishers had no clue how to make a game like WoW is one thing, saying however publishers wanted to make a game exactly like WoW is another.
I dunno' why they need to have 1 million subs? I thought the game was costing them $150 million to make. So, at $50 a box they need a little over 300K boxes. Did they secretly splurge another $300 million when we weren't looking?
I really enjoyed the Softpedia article, because it is worded horribly, thus verymisleading (aka worthless), and has a broken popup ad with sound... so awesome!
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I dunno' why they need to have 1 million subs? I thought the game was costing them $150 million to make. So, at $50 a box they need a little over 300K boxes. Did they secretly splurge another $300 million when we weren't looking?
I really enjoyed the Softpedia article, because it is worded horribly, thus verymisleading (aka worthless), and has a broken popup ad with sound... so awesome!
That is only $15 Million. To break even on just box sales it would be 3 million box sales. They do not plan on making back all there money on just box sales the first day. The monthly sub, paid services, and vanity items will net them a serious amount of cash also.
I think you have some sloppy defintions here. A "cultural phenomenon" (CP from here on out) is most definitely NOT something that does better than you'd think. For one, that covers me selling pet rocks or something and expecting to sell 20, and instead selling 200. Definitely NOT a CP there. For another, it means that if 20 years from now we understand society better due to advances in psychology and economics, then CPs could disappear because we'd be able to look at a new product and predict it would do well. Is it something that's just different from the norm in terms of success then? No, because my pet rock thing would then be a CP if I sold 200 and everyone else just sold a handful. Is it anything that manages to become somewhat well known so that if you mention it to someone they've probably heard of it? Well, at the risk of belaboring a point, pet rocks are well known enough so that most know of them, but I wouldn't call them a CP either. Certainly historical facts can be well-known, but even if we confine ourselves to products I don't think this fits -- is pepsi a CP? I'd say not (nor would I say Coke is either).
Now, let us propose it is something that, as you also say, "is big."
Is WoW big on a cultural level? Well, 12 million subs worldwide is certainly big for an MMO. It is NOT, however, big culturally. It is, in fact, pretty dang small. The Beatles were far, far, far, far, far larger as a counterpoint. WoW is not something that has taken any country by storm. Heck, it hasn't even taken the gaming world by storm, since many, many, many games outperform it in terms of box sales (or consoles, such as the Wii's 30 million sales in the US alone -- though the PS2 and Xbox have good sales as well). So no, I don't see how you can say it is a cultural phenomenon with a straight face. It's pretty ridiculous.
The only thing surprising about WoW's success in the MMO market is the fact that no decent competition has ever appeared. This isn't because WoW has some sort of mysterious power. Warhammer and Age of Conan both could have gained millions of subs -- and there are other games beyond just those two. The problem is the main competition completely sucked at release and hence WoW doesn't have any good competitors...it kind of operates like a monopoly, which is why you don't see it trying to mimic innovative ideas other MMOs have (like LOTRO's randomized PvE stuff). Heck, I wouldn't even say WoW's success is surprising if you take into account the extremely weak competition.
Anyhow, WoW's certainly doing well for an MMO, but just because it has some adds and such doesn't make it a CP anymore than Twix are a CP. It wouldn't be hard for another MMO to do as well and it would be quite possible to do even better. They just have to not be loaded down by major issues from day one.
hmmm, I would have thought pet rocks were a bit of a cultural phenomenom?
I'll think on what you posted.
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I dunno' why they need to have 1 million subs? I thought the game was costing them $150 million to make. So, at $50 a box they need a little over 300K boxes. Did they secretly splurge another $300 million when we weren't looking?
I really enjoyed the Softpedia article, because it is worded horribly, thus verymisleading (aka worthless), and has a broken popup ad with sound... so awesome!
Apparently there is rumor, some think reliable that the game has gone upward of 300 million.
However as an 'edit' I wonder if they really are thinking that they will recoup all their money with subs alone. I mean, why not spread the love and add advertising and license product tie-ins?
I am a bit suspect that they are spending so much money with the hope that people will sub. I remember when the first of the star wars prequels came out I had read something that stated that George Lucas made back a good deal if not most of his investment on advertising and toy and product tie-ins.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
lol yea because rumors are always true. Oh come on i cant believe anyone is listening to the trolls who keep trying to denegrate tor. They seem to all be gw 2 fans who think the only way gw 2 will succeed is if they succeed in getting peoplle to not play tor by there ranting and raving and rumor mongering on these forums.
im sorry but im not buyng it. The figur eby telling all those that think this game will be good and cant wait to play it that it needs 1 mil subs that all of a sudden all those players will decide to not buy or play tor .
No one wants to buy a game and have it go under the way apb did so they are using scare tactics to try to scare tor fans away. Ill have u knwo i want to play tor i dont wanna play gw 2 im sorry a dynamic ques system just is a quest system with a diffrent name. And i love healers no dedicated healer class would drive me away anyways. So even if tor fails im not playing gw 2.
also they are doing that. There is already a novel tied to tor. Coming out called fatal alliance. Im sure action figures of npcs and companions will come out. Its not star wars without the peripheral stuff . If u dont have action figures and books based on it its not really part of the universe is it?
lol yea because rumors are always true. Oh come on i cant believe anyone is listening to the trolls who keep trying to denegrate tor. They seem to all be gw 2 fans who think the only way gw 2 will succeed is if they succeed in getting peoplle to not play tor by there ranting and raving and rumor mongering on these forums.
im sorry but im not buyng it. The figur eby telling all those that think this game will be good and cant wait to play it that it needs 1 mil subs that all of a sudden all those players will decide to not buy or play tor .
No one wants to buy a game and have it go under the way apb did so they are using scare tactics to try to scare tor fans away. Ill have u knwo i want to play tor i dont wanna play gw 2 im sorry a dynamic ques system just is a quest system with a diffrent name. And i love healers no dedicated healer class would drive me away anyways. So even if tor fails im not playing gw 2.
also they are doing that. There is already a novel tied to tor. Coming out called fatal alliance. Im sure action figures of npcs and companions will come out. Its not star wars without the peripheral stuff . If u dont have action figures and books based on it its not really part of the universe is it?
QFE!!!
Next week, it'll be 100 million boxes and by the time we reach release, I'm sure the rumor will be one BILLION boxes just to break even.
There is no way for MMO today to get more than 1 million subscribers.
WOW subscription numbers are exception , because WOW is not MMO its cultural phenomenon. Like Facebook. Its one time deal , after that people move on - but not to another MMO (and especially not one like WOW).
For MMO to get any larger piece of subscription pie , they need to make something completely different.
But whatever SWTOR is doing is not enough different from WOW.
I am sorry , voice acting is not enough.
Yeah, I kinda agree. Hopefully it will do well enough that EA doesn't kill it like they have many of their MMO games.
I'll give it to you real, GW2, won't be as popular as many expect it to be, it will do well over a long period of time, like GW1, but it'll be in its own class of game, mostly the people who liked GW1, Linage and a few new gamers.
SWTOR, will not do what many fans would have you think. It might have a few hiccups, once some MMO gamers learn that they really don't care about the Story BioWare is trying to push on them, and VO isn’t all that spectacular for them and they unsubscribe from the game. TOR might end up being more of a niche game than we expected, but it will have its dedicated fanbase that will stick with it through thick and thin. It might sell over 1 million boxes at launch, but I bet 6 months in the population will be around a conservative few hundred thousand, unless they match what GW2 is doing and make it B2P.
Im sure theyll get easy going over 1 mil subs in first 3 motnhs like every mmo with hype has at the bginning so getting even is at least they get the thing is if they can hold those subs
I am the punishment of God... If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you Genghis Khan
There is no way for MMO today to get more than 1 million subscribers.
WOW subscription numbers are exception , because WOW is not MMO its cultural phenomenon. Like Facebook. Its one time deal , after that people move on - but not to another MMO (and especially not one like WOW).
For MMO to get any larger piece of subscription pie , they need to make something completely different.
But whatever SWTOR is doing is not enough different from WOW.
I am sorry , voice acting is not enough.
Yeah, I kinda agree. Hopefully it will do well enough that EA doesn't kill it like they have many of their MMO games.
I'll give it to you real, GW2, won't be as popular as many expect it to be, it will do well over a long period of time, like GW1, but it'll be in its own class of game, mostly the people who liked GW1, Linage and a few new gamers.
SWTOR, will not do what many fans would have you think. It might have a few hiccups, once some MMO gamers learn that they really don't care about the Story BioWare is trying to push on them, and VO isn’t all that spectacular for them and they unsubscribe from the game. TOR might end up being more of a niche game than we expected, but it will have its dedicated fanbase that will stick with it through thick and thin. It might sell over 1 million boxes at launch, but I bet 6 months in the population will be around a conservative few hundred thousand, unless they match what GW2 is doing and make it B2P.
Has anyone else noticed that it's people criticizing this game that make claims about BioWare "pushing" the voiceover, and voiceovers being all that this game has to offer?
Comments
I think you are making arbitrary distinctions and trying to "magic up" stuff by describing them as "cultural phenomenons" and hence outside the realm of rational analysis. You do that with your friend who doesn't play on consoles....who IS playing on a console, thereby immediately invalidating your descriptor for her. Yes, she didn't play on them once, but figuring out why she is playing on one can explain what sort of future console experience she'd enjoy. I'd wager it has something to do with the ease of the Wii's interface and being marketed at non-hard-core gamers. You are brushing such a rational analysis aside for no reason.
Similarly, there are reasons why WoW is doing so well. Painting it as a cultural phenomenon doesn't explain them at all. It doesn't explain why it is so popular, and in fact implies it is far more popular than it actually is (the vast, vast, vast majority of Americans, for instance, have not played WoW and never will, heck, even if every sub was an American that's not even a third of one percent of the population...that's not many people). Contrast that to the Wii, which has over 30 million U.S. sales (and you can bet that on average more than one person plays a given Wii that is bought). WoW is just a popular game. It happens to be the most popular MMO because it is polished, has a good amount of content, has good marketing, and has an easy interface for people who have never played an MMO. Some of those aspects snowballed a bit and brought in more people. It is NOT some sort of magical wonder, however.
Calling something a "cultural phenomenon" is just an excuse to not think.
the thing is, the reason WoW has so many subs its because its simply the best MMO out there.
but, lets take a look at some other MMOs put out semi recently
city of heroes/villains.
age of conan
warhammer online.
champions online.
why did these games fail? not because WoW is such a great game. but because they, simply, sucked. what WoW did do is it raised the standard for MMOs. if WoW never exsisted and we had nothing like it to compare these games too? i believe each one of them would of been a huge success. the problem is people look at WoW, then they compare these games to it and, really. there is no comparison because these games all sucked in their own special way.
no, i dont think any game will completely kill wow. i do however think that if anyone has a good shot at doing it at all. its either going to be DCU online, or SW:TOR. they've both insanely popular IPs, being handled by two very well known companys with atlest decent track records.
another thing you have to take into account, is this isnt simply a "starwars MMO", its a knights of the old republic MMO. easily one of the greatest starwars games ever. try not to think of this as an MMO. think of it as a KTOR game that just happens to be online and it will probably be a major success.
Playing
Nothing
waiting for
The secret world
Played
WoW, DCU online, star wars: the old republic, city of heroes, city of villains, everquest, plenty more I'm probably forgetting or aren't worth noting.
And not wanting it to be a cultural phenomenon doesn't exactly give you an excuse to not think. I think you need to revisit what a cultural phenomenom is.
A cultural phenomenon is something that grows far larger than could have been anticipated and draws in people who never before would have considered being drawn into it. It has to do with the right thing at the right time sparking the right type of interest.
Regardless of how it got there. It doesn't matter the explanation. It just has to be noted to be something that has hit "big".
And as far as the wii, sure using my friend as an example it most definitely paints a picture of what sort of console experience she would enjoy. But given the explosion of the wii and that there are people who have friends doing it therefore they are trying it and getting hooked, well 'yadda yadda yadda" you have a cultural phenomenom. It's not "magic' and no one is saying it is.
All a phenomenom is "is" a thing that is noticed to be different than the norm in a certain period of time or certain instance. Doesn't matter how it got there. WoW was different than the norm, even though it capitalized on what went before. But it captured the imaginations of some who then told others who then told others and then the marketing. Then Bam umpteen million subs and it's now being marketed on TV and movies and it's suddenly in the cultural mainstream. Yes, it is one of the most put together games out there and due to it's popularity it has gathered quite amount of subs. But no one would have expected it to grow to the size that is has grown today.
the Beatles and Elvis are also cultural phenomena and yes they were also marketed well and yes they also did what they did extremely well. Still doesn't mitigate that they were cultural phenomena.
As far as staying on topic, I see no reason why SWToR won't generate the same type of hype and excitement as today's wow. Only difference is that precedent has been set that it is indeed possible for a game to capture so many people. Whether SWToR can do the same only time will tell.
It will get them, whether they stay is another thing entirely.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think you have some sloppy defintions here. A "cultural phenomenon" (CP from here on out) is most definitely NOT something that does better than you'd think. For one, that covers me selling pet rocks or something and expecting to sell 20, and instead selling 200. Definitely NOT a CP there. For another, it means that if 20 years from now we understand society better due to advances in psychology and economics, then CPs could disappear because we'd be able to look at a new product and predict it would do well. Is it something that's just different from the norm in terms of success then? No, because my pet rock thing would then be a CP if I sold 200 and everyone else just sold a handful. Is it anything that manages to become somewhat well known so that if you mention it to someone they've probably heard of it? Well, at the risk of belaboring a point, pet rocks are well known enough so that most know of them, but I wouldn't call them a CP either. Certainly historical facts can be well-known, but even if we confine ourselves to products I don't think this fits -- is pepsi a CP? I'd say not (nor would I say Coke is either).
Now, let us propose it is something that, as you also say, "is big."
Is WoW big on a cultural level? Well, 12 million subs worldwide is certainly big for an MMO. It is NOT, however, big culturally. It is, in fact, pretty dang small. The Beatles were far, far, far, far, far larger as a counterpoint. WoW is not something that has taken any country by storm. Heck, it hasn't even taken the gaming world by storm, since many, many, many games outperform it in terms of box sales (or consoles, such as the Wii's 30 million sales in the US alone -- though the PS2 and Xbox have good sales as well). So no, I don't see how you can say it is a cultural phenomenon with a straight face. It's pretty ridiculous.
The only thing surprising about WoW's success in the MMO market is the fact that no decent competition has ever appeared. This isn't because WoW has some sort of mysterious power. Warhammer and Age of Conan both could have gained millions of subs -- and there are other games beyond just those two. The problem is the main competition completely sucked at release and hence WoW doesn't have any good competitors...it kind of operates like a monopoly, which is why you don't see it trying to mimic innovative ideas other MMOs have (like LOTRO's randomized PvE stuff). Heck, I wouldn't even say WoW's success is surprising if you take into account the extremely weak competition.
Anyhow, WoW's certainly doing well for an MMO, but just because it has some adds and such doesn't make it a CP anymore than Twix are a CP. It wouldn't be hard for another MMO to do as well and it would be quite possible to do even better. They just have to not be loaded down by major issues from day one.
To the guy above:
Wow made around $ 6 billion dollars in 6 years of its existence. That's more than 3 times the best selling movie ever (Ttitanic). That's more than the complete franchise of all Call of Duty games on all platforms in 5 years combined.
That's unique in the history of video gaming. That's unique in the history of the audio visual market. One single game.
Sometimes people simply have no clue.
In the end success is measured in pure and simple US dollars.
EA just wants a piece of that pie. It will be a small piece, no doubts about that.
Why? EA doesn't make a game like Blizzard did 6 years ago ...: they make a product to share the money cow.
A big difference ... That's why those others failed too btw.
Greed. These guys no longer publish games: they want to sell subscriptions or cash shop items.
They just want to print money in EVERY way imaginable (see the sol called "free" to play market).
Blizzard stumbled on it by accident. Since then every product was launched immaturely to "grab the money".
EA: enough said.
Now you can imagine how many fools exist in the whole world that pay per month for a game.
With so many fools around theres a prety good chance that i can milk them some money using other means.
One big thx to Blizz that revealed how many idiots exist that they waste their lives playing a game and even more they pay per month for it.hahahahahahaha
Ty for putting out you didn't understand ONE bit of my message.
No hard feelings: all those other publishers of MMo's had no clue either.
Simply put: the public isn't made out of idiots....
SWG was about 100K shy of 1 million when it released and there are certainly more MMO players now then there was then. Bioaware also has a built in player base due to the success ot the previous KotOR games; which is a huge advantage. The one diadvantage I would say SWTOR has over SWG is that I don't think the Star Wars brand is as strong now as it was then. However, I would be surprised if they don't make well over a million box sales given the sale numbers of the previouse KotOR games. I think the real question is how long can they can maintain the sub-numbers.
This , however, do to the utter lack of new mmos if they get it out before terra/gw2/and rift they should see large numbers. But i doubt they keep half for over a year if they hit 1 mill.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Silly ppl, If wow is compared to a social networking site it's going to have to be Myspace. TOR will be Facebook. It simply can't fail. Even if it is Mediocre.
Take Avatar. That movie by James Cameron. Most average movie ever. What made it stand out? 3D
Voiceover to MMOs is what 3D is to movies. The big Whoa moments.
I'm calling it right here right now. this is going to be huge. You can talk crap about it all you want, you can pretend to be "logical" and crap like that. But this is going to be big.
Deny it all you want, this game will bring WoW to its knees. won't kill it, but there will finally be a competitor.
That's because it has a successful business model that grabs a lot of money out of people, especially compared to what it delivers -- sub games are all insane this way. It doesn't mean more people have played it than have played all Call of Duty games -- they've had 55 MILLION sales and that's pretty darn good. Comparing a sub game to a non-sub game doesn't make any sense.
It's certainly not unique in the audio-visual market. You know what's more successful? Cable TV -- and that's a more legitimate comparison because it ALSO has a monthly fee. One could then consider various cable only channels, if one wanted or Netflix (which has over 10 million subs now, and has been active since 1997). Of course, the audio-visual market is really to large a beast to look at in such a simplistic manner as there are way too many products and business models to lump them all together.
In any case, WoW certainly isn't some kind of great Cultural Phenomenon. Relative to the whole population of the U.S. it isn't played much here (and the same is true of other countries).
If anything, WoW and other sub games are an example of just how easy to screw gamers it is. Most of the sub fee is pure profit, and MMOs definitely don't deliver content that justifies the massive sub expense. It isn't like WoW has the new content of 3 major games every year.....it's not even one. Most of the new content you have to pay additional money for. The more you look at it, the more it is clear subs at probably the greatest gaming rip-off ever.
I completely agree with Sovrath, wow like facebook games have drawn many non-gamers. No! someone does not become a game by simply playing 1 game, if there were more real gamers outside we wouldnt have that many crappy videogames coming out that are only based on marketing and nothing else... Most of those ppl have no opininon about any game, they are driven from marketing and carrot on a stick gameplay, They dont care if a game is good or not, they just have fun. And noobs can have fun even in the most unbalanced game.
Hm, an admirable boldness for sure. I can respect the undertaking to make something big and use much money. I guess the names alone will at least make it break even. But if it lasts is something entirely different. Most people are going to buy the box for sure. If they stay beyond rushing through 1-2 stories, that is the question. How long the lasting appeal will be for a gamer is what worries me, not that Bioware doesn't break even.
I guess they sell between 2 and 5 million boxes in the first few months, but it will likely drop after some months when people saw the story. In EVERY single MMO gamers always rushed through content considerably faster and easier than developers expected.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Currently as of the last census there are 6,877,200,000 people in the world TOR needs 1M thats about like .6 percent of the population. Granted this is the entire world but i think SW is pretty big that even bumping that number up makes it possible to get 1M easy. If they can do it well.
if 33% of that 1M comes from BW fans
another 33% comes from star wars fans
then all they gotta make up is 34%of that population in regular fans of MMOs. they will get the first two parts pretty easy. it's this last part they have to get that is any kind of challenge. If they make their game as well as they are saying it will be then i don't see this has too much of a hurdle to overcome.
Personally myself I think they can do this, if they have 4 servers with 250K on each server they can get that 1M.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
It's a lot less than .6 percent. It's .0145%
Actually the public can be made to be idiots and make idiotic decisions. Case in point: who was dumber, George Bush for believing there were WMD's in Iraq even though the State Department didn't believe in the intel initially or the general public who supported it and called individuals that questioned the motives and moves for going to war as "unpatriotic". So yes, the public can be made into fools and idiots without either accepting or realizing it.
And to be fairer in the general sense of mmo game history, WoW didn't just "pop" up and become a success, it built its name on the history of Starcraft and Diablo and implemented game dynamics that worked for other mmo's in a market place that had little competition at the time.
Saying other publishers had no clue how to make a game like WoW is one thing, saying however publishers wanted to make a game exactly like WoW is another.
I dunno' why they need to have 1 million subs? I thought the game was costing them $150 million to make. So, at $50 a box they need a little over 300K boxes. Did they secretly splurge another $300 million when we weren't looking?
I really enjoyed the Softpedia article, because it is worded horribly, thus verymisleading (aka worthless), and has a broken popup ad with sound... so awesome!
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That is only $15 Million. To break even on just box sales it would be 3 million box sales. They do not plan on making back all there money on just box sales the first day. The monthly sub, paid services, and vanity items will net them a serious amount of cash also.
hmmm, I would have thought pet rocks were a bit of a cultural phenomenom?
I'll think on what you posted.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Apparently there is rumor, some think reliable that the game has gone upward of 300 million.
However as an 'edit' I wonder if they really are thinking that they will recoup all their money with subs alone. I mean, why not spread the love and add advertising and license product tie-ins?
I am a bit suspect that they are spending so much money with the hope that people will sub. I remember when the first of the star wars prequels came out I had read something that stated that George Lucas made back a good deal if not most of his investment on advertising and toy and product tie-ins.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
lol yea because rumors are always true. Oh come on i cant believe anyone is listening to the trolls who keep trying to denegrate tor. They seem to all be gw 2 fans who think the only way gw 2 will succeed is if they succeed in getting peoplle to not play tor by there ranting and raving and rumor mongering on these forums.
im sorry but im not buyng it. The figur eby telling all those that think this game will be good and cant wait to play it that it needs 1 mil subs that all of a sudden all those players will decide to not buy or play tor .
No one wants to buy a game and have it go under the way apb did so they are using scare tactics to try to scare tor fans away. Ill have u knwo i want to play tor i dont wanna play gw 2 im sorry a dynamic ques system just is a quest system with a diffrent name. And i love healers no dedicated healer class would drive me away anyways. So even if tor fails im not playing gw 2.
also they are doing that. There is already a novel tied to tor. Coming out called fatal alliance. Im sure action figures of npcs and companions will come out. Its not star wars without the peripheral stuff . If u dont have action figures and books based on it its not really part of the universe is it?
QFE!!!
Next week, it'll be 100 million boxes and by the time we reach release, I'm sure the rumor will be one BILLION boxes just to break even.
Yeah, I kinda agree. Hopefully it will do well enough that EA doesn't kill it like they have many of their MMO games.
I'll give it to you real, GW2, won't be as popular as many expect it to be, it will do well over a long period of time, like GW1, but it'll be in its own class of game, mostly the people who liked GW1, Linage and a few new gamers.
SWTOR, will not do what many fans would have you think. It might have a few hiccups, once some MMO gamers learn that they really don't care about the Story BioWare is trying to push on them, and VO isn’t all that spectacular for them and they unsubscribe from the game. TOR might end up being more of a niche game than we expected, but it will have its dedicated fanbase that will stick with it through thick and thin. It might sell over 1 million boxes at launch, but I bet 6 months in the population will be around a conservative few hundred thousand, unless they match what GW2 is doing and make it B2P.
theyll be even after 1-3 months .
Im sure theyll get easy going over 1 mil subs in first 3 motnhs like every mmo with hype has at the bginning so getting even is at least they get the thing is if they can hold those subs
I am the punishment of God...
If you had not committed great sins,
God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you
Genghis Khan
Has anyone else noticed that it's people criticizing this game that make claims about BioWare "pushing" the voiceover, and voiceovers being all that this game has to offer?