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elemental magic in LOTRO

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  • sadeyxsadeyx Member UncommonPosts: 1,555

    The Runekeeper is a fantastic class!   Most everyone I know who rolls one to try it out almost always end up making it their main.

     

    Wether its in keeping with the lore or not is irrelevent.  First and formost lotro is a game.

  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Member Posts: 4,640

    Originally posted by Philby

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    You taking about that one caster class that kinda plays like a Mage? They added that abomination with the first expansion I believe. I remember it pissing off all the Tolkien fanatics.

    Yes magic use was introduced with the MOM xpac. Im surprised they have not yet introuced eagles as flying mounts. That might bend the lore a bit but not be a total break.

    I hope they never release flying mounts.

    Those damn things have probably been the worst additions to the genre besides "instant travel".

    want people to completely avoid non-instanced content trivializing damn near all qust by avoiding mobs and dropping directly on objectives. put those things in your game.

    Anyway as for the topic... I don't dislike the RK i just hate that it doesnt really fit the lore.

    I mean Turbine does a pretty good job not messing with the IP besides that class.

    image

    Playing: Rift, LotRO
    Waiting on: GW2, BP

  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Member Posts: 4,640

    Originally posted by sadeyx

    The Runekeeper is a fantastic class!   Most everyone I know who rolls one to try it out almost always end up making it their main.

     

    Wether its in keeping with the lore or not is irrelevent.  First and formost lotro is a game.

    It certainly is relevent... one class bending the lore/ip is acceptable but i can promise you if turbine went crazy and started handing out shit like druids and shaman classes the majority of the players that only play for the storyline and the love of the IP will leave and lotro would be left with about 5% of the players that only care about raid loot...

    image

    Playing: Rift, LotRO
    Waiting on: GW2, BP

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    Originally posted by Philby


    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    You taking about that one caster class that kinda plays like a Mage? They added that abomination with the first expansion I believe. I remember it pissing off all the Tolkien fanatics.

    Yes magic use was introduced with the MOM xpac. Im surprised they have not yet introuced eagles as flying mounts. That might bend the lore a bit but not be a total break.

    I hope they never release flying mounts.

    Those damn things have probably been the worst additions to the genre besides "instant travel".

    want people to completely avoid non-instanced content trivializing damn near all qust by avoiding mobs and dropping directly on objectives. put those things in your game.

    Anyway as for the topic... I don't dislike the RK i just hate that it doesnt really fit the lore.

    I mean Turbine does a pretty good job not messing with the IP besides that class.

    Well, "flying mounts" would be a lore break becaus the Eagles aren't mounts. They are a race of beings.

    It would make as much sense as having dwarves as mounts.

    The only times they ever assisted others by conveying them somewhere were in the hobbit to rescue the party from the goblins, rescuing Gandalf (twice I think) and rescuing sam and frodo from Mt. Doom.

    I think the issue, mounts or magic, is that though there are some people who are "nuts about lore" there are many people who just want to play in the world they think they are playing in.

    But some players are just looking for a good ol' sword's and sorcery yarn and want every fantasy game they play in to recreate some sort of D&D feel.

    Fantasy comes in all flavors. It's doesn't always follow the guy with a staff hurling fire balls and calling up mordenkeinen's hound.

    Look at the movie Pan's Labyrnth. Besides the argument of whether it's in the girl's head or not, she is able to step into a fantasy world whre no one is throwing magic fire balls around but everything sort of follows a more heightened kind of heightened grimm's faerie tale. Magic is there but it's not the D&D type of magic and more of a nature/earth magic.

    Lord of the Rings has powerful magical beings but players see this and they want to be the same beings on some level. Not really working it through that these beings are just the Characters that drove the story.

    Many players don't want to play in a more subtle fantasy world and probably don't understand that such a world is even a viable game play possibility.

    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • RocketeerRocketeer Member UncommonPosts: 1,303

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    Originally posted by sadeyx

    The Runekeeper is a fantastic class!   Most everyone I know who rolls one to try it out almost always end up making it their main.

     

    Wether its in keeping with the lore or not is irrelevent.  First and formost lotro is a game.

    It certainly is relevent... one class bending the lore/ip is acceptable but i can promise you if turbine went crazy and started handing out shit like druids and shaman classes the majority of the players that only play for the storyline and the love of the IP will leave and lotro would be left with about 5% of the players that only care about raid loot...

    I don't think its bending the lore as much as people pretend. I mean its not actually doing anything thats against the lore, there just didn't happen to be RK, LM or Minstrel in the LotRO trilogy or the hobbit. But there isn't actually much discussion that runes or words have power in middle earth, and obviously there have to be people tending/writing these runes or researching the lore around these words of power. Kinda doubt elrond was studying grammar or origami in his library.

    Really, i urge you to just read their skills and class description, and to disable the combat FX effects in options. Go and see for yourself how much lore breakage is still there after turning of the "special effects" which all classes have to some extend or other. 

  • RocketeerRocketeer Member UncommonPosts: 1,303

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by Rockgod99


    Originally posted by Philby


    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    You taking about that one caster class that kinda plays like a Mage? They added that abomination with the first expansion I believe. I remember it pissing off all the Tolkien fanatics.

    Yes magic use was introduced with the MOM xpac. Im surprised they have not yet introuced eagles as flying mounts. That might bend the lore a bit but not be a total break.

    I hope they never release flying mounts.

    Those damn things have probably been the worst additions to the genre besides "instant travel".

    want people to completely avoid non-instanced content trivializing damn near all qust by avoiding mobs and dropping directly on objectives. put those things in your game.

    Anyway as for the topic... I don't dislike the RK i just hate that it doesnt really fit the lore.

    I mean Turbine does a pretty good job not messing with the IP besides that class.

    Well, "flying mounts" would be a lore break becaus the Eagles aren't mounts. They are a race of beings.

    It would make as much sense as having dwarves as mounts.

    The only times they ever assisted others by conveying them somewhere were in the hobbit to rescue the party from the goblins, rescuing Gandalf (twice I think) and rescuing sam and frodo from Mt. Doom.

    I think the issue, mounts or magic, is that though there are some people who are "nuts about lore" there are many people who just want to play in the world they think they are playing in.

    But some players are just looking for a good ol' sword's and sorcery yarn and want every fantasy game they play in to recreate some sort of D&D feel.

    Fantasy comes in all flavors. It's doesn't always follow the guy with a staff hurling fire balls and calling up mordenkeinen's hound.

    Look at the movie Pan's Labyrnth. Besides the argument of whether it's in the girl's head or not, she is able to step into a fantasy world whre no one is throwing magic fire balls around but everything sort of follows a more heightened kind of heightened grimm's faerie tale. Magic is there but it's not the D&D type of magic and more of a nature/earth magic.

    Lord of the Rings has powerful magical beings but players see this and they want to be the same beings on some level. Not really working it through that these beings are just the Characters that drove the story.

    Many players don't want to play in a more subtle fantasy world and probably don't understand that such a world is even a viable game play possibility.

    This is very much true, and i admit i fall into this thinking aswell. A fantasy world without some powerful guys in a bathrobe doing some kind of lightshow just doesn't feel right. Without any sort of "magic"(and i include yells or attacks that buff or heal in that) we are left with boring variants of thiefs, fighters, archers and maybe monks if you want to get exotic. Frail cloth classes and the way they are balanced against heavy armor/archer/stealth classes are what really defines games i think.

    Maybe i lack creativity, but how would you even do a rock paper scissor system when lorewise a towershield + heavy armor clearly counters both cloak and dagger classes aswell as archers or unarmored combatants? We have a local castle here complete with medieval weapons and armor, just let me tell you that you do NOT want to engage one of these guys with a couple daggers or your fists.

     

    So yeah in short i think that without some sort of "magical" attacks that bypass armor you either end up with something like knights online or something so unrealistic that even MMO gamers have a hard time swallowing it. If your a stickler the neverending supply of arrows or javelins is atleast as big an issue as RK or LMs combined, because thats not only clearly against the lore it also makes no logical sense.

  • jaxsundanejaxsundane Member Posts: 2,776

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    Originally posted by sadeyx

    The Runekeeper is a fantastic class!   Most everyone I know who rolls one to try it out almost always end up making it their main.

     

    Wether its in keeping with the lore or not is irrelevent.  First and formost lotro is a game.

    It certainly is relevent... one class bending the lore/ip is acceptable but i can promise you if turbine went crazy and started handing out shit like druids and shaman classes the majority of the players that only play for the storyline and the love of the IP will leave and lotro would be left with about 5% of the players that only care about raid loot...

     The problem I have with this line of thinking is that we are fans in this forum talking about what the lore means to us personally, while Turbine is the company that has been entrusted with the lore and to me that stands for a bit more than the fan who has an affinity for it.

    If Turbine made flying mounts tommorrow I doubt it would be against the wishes of Tolkiens estate (which if I remember right they still have to clear all they do with them including the RK and LM classes) and this is who Tolkien entrusted with the lore, I may not agree with what they do with it but they certainly have the right to.

    And I have to disagree with you on your point about what would happen if they strayed too far from the lore, I've been playing the game for about two years and in my travels I've met a few people who were really into the lore and these were never the people all bent out of shape over percieved breaks in the lore, and this was a really hardcore rp guild that spent hours in rp sessions with walls of text taken straight out of the works of Tolkien (not the movies).  Half the time I rarely understood what they were talking about.

    but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....

  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Member Posts: 4,640
    Originally posted by Rocketeer


    Originally posted by Rockgod99


    Originally posted by sadeyx


    The Runekeeper is a fantastic class!   Most everyone I know who rolls one to try it out almost always end up making it their main.
     
    Wether its in keeping with the lore or not is irrelevent.  First and formost lotro is a game.

    It certainly is relevent... one class bending the lore/ip is acceptable but i can promise you if turbine went crazy and started handing out shit like druids and shaman classes the majority of the players that only play for the storyline and the love of the IP will leave and lotro would be left with about 5% of the players that only care about raid loot...

    I don't think its bending the lore as much as people pretend. I mean its not actually doing anything thats against the lore, there just didn't happen to be RK, LM or Minstrel in the LotRO trilogy or the hobbit. But there isn't actually much discussion that runes or words have power in middle earth, and obviously there have to be people tending/writing these runes or researching the lore around these words of power. Kinda doubt elrond was studying grammar or origami in his library.

    Really, i urge you to just read their skills and class description, and to disable the combat FX effects in options. Go and see for yourself how much lore breakage is still there after turning of the "special effects" which all classes have to some extend or other. 

     

    Like I said I think turbines done a good job so far keeping to the restrictions set by the ip. I just don't think people would be happy if turbine went nuts and totally threw the lore out of whack. This is why I say it's relevant when it comes to ip vs game. Can you imagine if there were hundreds of white wizards running around middle earth? Man... I think lotro would have to merge every server into one after the massive amount of non-raiders left.

    image

    Playing: Rift, LotRO
    Waiting on: GW2, BP

  • RocketeerRocketeer Member UncommonPosts: 1,303

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

     

    Like I said I think turbines done a good job so far keeping to the restrictions set by the ip. I just don't think people would be happy if turbine went nuts and totally threw the lore out of whack. This is why I say it's relevant when it comes to ip vs game. Can you imagine if there were hundreds of white wizards running around middle earth? Man... I think lotro would have to merge every server into one after the massive amount of non-raiders left.

    Yeah i do agree that it would totally ruin my and some other peoples experience, then again i doubt Turbine would go so far. From the little i have seen of Turbines loremonkey(Berephon <3) he does an awesome job. For example:

    B on Dwarf genders.

    B on some ran dom ingame NPC.

    B on Warden skill effects.

    B on some watchtower.

    B clarifying the identity of some NPC.

     

    The guy also has a blog where he talks about the conjugation grammar of sindarin, i thinks its rather obvious that the guy is more geeky than most selfproclaimed lore fans.

  • sadeyxsadeyx Member UncommonPosts: 1,555

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

     5% of the players that only care about raid loot...

    I dont know where you are getting your statstics from, but noone I know who plays and loves lotro have ever read the books and cared little about the films. 

     

    While I have always been an RPG, D&D fan I've never been a fan of the lord of the rings.  When I sit down to play a game that I've paid good money for,  I'm far more interested in it being fun, enjoyable, challenging and have a good amount of social interaction.

    I really dont care if something is the wrong colour or has an odd effect.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937

    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Originally posted by Sovrath


    Originally posted by Rockgod99


    Originally posted by Philby


    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    You taking about that one caster class that kinda plays like a Mage? They added that abomination with the first expansion I believe. I remember it pissing off all the Tolkien fanatics.

    Yes magic use was introduced with the MOM xpac. Im surprised they have not yet introuced eagles as flying mounts. That might bend the lore a bit but not be a total break.

    I hope they never release flying mounts.

    Those damn things have probably been the worst additions to the genre besides "instant travel".

    want people to completely avoid non-instanced content trivializing damn near all qust by avoiding mobs and dropping directly on objectives. put those things in your game.

    Anyway as for the topic... I don't dislike the RK i just hate that it doesnt really fit the lore.

    I mean Turbine does a pretty good job not messing with the IP besides that class.

    Well, "flying mounts" would be a lore break becaus the Eagles aren't mounts. They are a race of beings.

    It would make as much sense as having dwarves as mounts.

    The only times they ever assisted others by conveying them somewhere were in the hobbit to rescue the party from the goblins, rescuing Gandalf (twice I think) and rescuing sam and frodo from Mt. Doom.

    I think the issue, mounts or magic, is that though there are some people who are "nuts about lore" there are many people who just want to play in the world they think they are playing in.

    But some players are just looking for a good ol' sword's and sorcery yarn and want every fantasy game they play in to recreate some sort of D&D feel.

    Fantasy comes in all flavors. It's doesn't always follow the guy with a staff hurling fire balls and calling up mordenkeinen's hound.

    Look at the movie Pan's Labyrnth. Besides the argument of whether it's in the girl's head or not, she is able to step into a fantasy world whre no one is throwing magic fire balls around but everything sort of follows a more heightened kind of heightened grimm's faerie tale. Magic is there but it's not the D&D type of magic and more of a nature/earth magic.

    Lord of the Rings has powerful magical beings but players see this and they want to be the same beings on some level. Not really working it through that these beings are just the Characters that drove the story.

    Many players don't want to play in a more subtle fantasy world and probably don't understand that such a world is even a viable game play possibility.

    This is very much true, and i admit i fall into this thinking aswell. A fantasy world without some powerful guys in a bathrobe doing some kind of lightshow just doesn't feel right. Without any sort of "magic"(and i include yells or attacks that buff or heal in that) we are left with boring variants of thiefs, fighters, archers and maybe monks if you want to get exotic. Frail cloth classes and the way they are balanced against heavy armor/archer/stealth classes are what really defines games i think.

    Maybe i lack creativity, but how would you even do a rock paper scissor system when lorewise a towershield + heavy armor clearly counters both cloak and dagger classes aswell as archers or unarmored combatants? We have a local castle here complete with medieval weapons and armor, just let me tell you that you do NOT want to engage one of these guys with a couple daggers or your fists.

     

    So yeah in short i think that without some sort of "magical" attacks that bypass armor you either end up with something like knights online or something so unrealistic that even MMO gamers have a hard time swallowing it. If your a stickler the neverending supply of arrows or javelins is atleast as big an issue as RK or LMs combined, because thats not only clearly against the lore it also makes no logical sense.

    I think part of the problem is that there probably wasn’t “heavy armor” in The Lord of the Rings.



    Still your point stands as an unarmored person might have far more difficulty against someone wearing chain.



    My thought is that while something like chain (or even heavy armor) gives a person more protection, the devs could build in enough negatives in order to give an unarmored person a chance.



    As a point of note, the Mongols were one of the fiercest armies to invade Europe and made it right to Vienna until they decided to turn back because of the death of their Khan.



    Knights couldn’t stand up against them because they were fast and used bows. I’m sure there are others who know more detail about this point in history but the point is that the didn’t use heavy armor at all and were practically unstoppable.

     

    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Member Posts: 4,640
    Originally posted by sadeyx


    Originally posted by Rockgod99


     5% of the players that only care about raid loot...

    I dont know where you are getting your statstics from, but noone I know who plays and loves lotro have ever read the books and cared little about the films. 

     

    While I have always been an RPG, D&D fan I've never been a fan of the lord of the rings.  When I sit down to play a game that I've paid good money for,  I'm far more interested in it being fun, enjoyable, challenging and have a good amount of social interaction.

    I really dont care if something is the wrong colour or has an odd effect.

     

    Everyones experience varies I just happen to associate myself with people that read Tolkien, enjoy storyline and the journey more than some raid schedule for purple & teal loot.

    image

    Playing: Rift, LotRO
    Waiting on: GW2, BP

  • RocketeerRocketeer Member UncommonPosts: 1,303

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by Rocketeer


    Originally posted by Sovrath


    Originally posted by Rockgod99


    Originally posted by Philby


    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    You taking about that one caster class that kinda plays like a Mage? They added that abomination with the first expansion I believe. I remember it pissing off all the Tolkien fanatics.

    Yes magic use was introduced with the MOM xpac. Im surprised they have not yet introuced eagles as flying mounts. That might bend the lore a bit but not be a total break.

    I hope they never release flying mounts.

    Those damn things have probably been the worst additions to the genre besides "instant travel".

    want people to completely avoid non-instanced content trivializing damn near all qust by avoiding mobs and dropping directly on objectives. put those things in your game.

    Anyway as for the topic... I don't dislike the RK i just hate that it doesnt really fit the lore.

    I mean Turbine does a pretty good job not messing with the IP besides that class.

    Well, "flying mounts" would be a lore break becaus the Eagles aren't mounts. They are a race of beings.

    It would make as much sense as having dwarves as mounts.

    The only times they ever assisted others by conveying them somewhere were in the hobbit to rescue the party from the goblins, rescuing Gandalf (twice I think) and rescuing sam and frodo from Mt. Doom.

    I think the issue, mounts or magic, is that though there are some people who are "nuts about lore" there are many people who just want to play in the world they think they are playing in.

    But some players are just looking for a good ol' sword's and sorcery yarn and want every fantasy game they play in to recreate some sort of D&D feel.

    Fantasy comes in all flavors. It's doesn't always follow the guy with a staff hurling fire balls and calling up mordenkeinen's hound.

    Look at the movie Pan's Labyrnth. Besides the argument of whether it's in the girl's head or not, she is able to step into a fantasy world whre no one is throwing magic fire balls around but everything sort of follows a more heightened kind of heightened grimm's faerie tale. Magic is there but it's not the D&D type of magic and more of a nature/earth magic.

    Lord of the Rings has powerful magical beings but players see this and they want to be the same beings on some level. Not really working it through that these beings are just the Characters that drove the story.

    Many players don't want to play in a more subtle fantasy world and probably don't understand that such a world is even a viable game play possibility.

    This is very much true, and i admit i fall into this thinking aswell. A fantasy world without some powerful guys in a bathrobe doing some kind of lightshow just doesn't feel right. Without any sort of "magic"(and i include yells or attacks that buff or heal in that) we are left with boring variants of thiefs, fighters, archers and maybe monks if you want to get exotic. Frail cloth classes and the way they are balanced against heavy armor/archer/stealth classes are what really defines games i think.

    Maybe i lack creativity, but how would you even do a rock paper scissor system when lorewise a towershield + heavy armor clearly counters both cloak and dagger classes aswell as archers or unarmored combatants? We have a local castle here complete with medieval weapons and armor, just let me tell you that you do NOT want to engage one of these guys with a couple daggers or your fists.

     

    So yeah in short i think that without some sort of "magical" attacks that bypass armor you either end up with something like knights online or something so unrealistic that even MMO gamers have a hard time swallowing it. If your a stickler the neverending supply of arrows or javelins is atleast as big an issue as RK or LMs combined, because thats not only clearly against the lore it also makes no logical sense.

    I think part of the problem is that there probably wasn’t “heavy armor” in The Lord of the Rings.



    Still your point stands as an unarmored person might have far more difficulty against someone wearing chain.



    My thought is that while something like chain (or even heavy armor) gives a person more protection, the devs could build in enough negatives in order to give an unarmored person a chance.



    As a point of note, the Mongols were one of the fiercest armies to invade Europe and made it right to Vienna until they decided to turn back because of the death of their Khan.



    Knights couldn’t stand up against them because they were fast and used bows. I’m sure there are others who know more detail about this point in history but the point is that the didn’t use heavy armor at all and were practically unstoppable.

     

    Why do you think there was no heavy armor in LotRO? Might be off a bit but i think atleast the elves had full plate armor at some point, dwarves probably too.

    The problem is that if you only have two sides(Armored vs light armor) you can never archieve any balance, atleast i have never seen it. You imho need a third part, there is a reason its called rock/paper/scissors and not rock/scissors. And there is also a reason why armor counters arrow/dagger which counters magic which again counters armor. It just works and makes sense im not conviced you could archieve a similar system with two or four(or more) class archetypes that works as well.

    I mean everyone has one type he is weaker against, and one type he is stronger against, there is magic in the number 3 i tell you :D.

  • sadeyxsadeyx Member UncommonPosts: 1,555

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

     

    Everyones experience varies I just happen to associate myself with people that read Tolkien, enjoy storyline and the journey more than some raid schedule for purple & teal loot.

    And I respect that,  I just dont accept that the majority feels this way.  

    Indeed, gaming history, especially where MMO's are concerned, un-refutably shows that no matter how big or popular the IP is and no matter how true they are to their IP, if the game is shit.. then its shit, not matter how true to the IP they are.

    Warhammer, for example.  They stubornly stuck to their 'pvp envoiroment' that the IP lends itself too, and has pretty much fallen flat on its face.

    Yet lotro, accepts that to make the game enjoyable they may have to bend things a little, and has proven successfull.

    Although I accept that you recognise Turbine have, thus-far, done a good job of portraying the IP, the Rune-keeper in this case makes the primary purpose of the product, a game, enjoyable, fun and.. I'd have to say, thrilling!  explosions of electric on the monster play battle field are awesome, inspiring... and gives a true feeling of epic battles.... epic, is a word that lotro is!

    If Turbine doesnt bend these rules which Tolkein fans feel should be theren then I truly feel that, even a true Lotr fan such as yourself would quickly tire and move on.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937

    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Originally posted by Sovrath

     

    Why do you think there was no heavy armor in LotRO? Might be off a bit but i think atleast the elves had full plate armor at some point, dwarves probably too.

    The problem is that if you only have two sides(Armored vs light armor) you can never archieve any balance, atleast i have never seen it. You imho need a third part, there is a reason its called rock/paper/scissors and not rock/scissors. And there is also a reason why armor counters arrow/dagger which counters magic which again counters armor. It just works and makes sense im not conviced you could archieve a similar system with two or four(or more) class archetypes that works as well.

    I mean everyone has one type he is weaker against, and one type he is stronger against, there is magic in the number 3 i tell you :D.

    I don't recall anything about full plate in the books. My recollection was that everything was chain and perhaps with some plates sewn here and there? I'd be happy if someone who is extremely versed in Lord of the Rings minutiae to correct me if I'm wrong. However I don't recall any full plate in the books.

    But as I said, the mongols only used leather and silk and they kicked the butts of knights in Plate Armor. Therefore a system that allowed for the full protection of plate armor but allowing for non-armored or light armored fighters to be more versatile, more quick, could work.

    edit: so far the only thing I can find which seems to point to more scale mail and chain mail is this:

    "...Thingol's armouries were stored with axes and with spears and swords, and tall helms, and long coats of bright mail; for the hauberks of the Dwarves were so fashioned that they rusted not but shone ever as if they were new-burnished." In Unfinished Tales it is also written: "Now Thingol had in Menegroth deep armouries filled with great wealth of weapons: metal wrought like fishes' mail and shining like water in the moon; swords and axes, shields and helms, wrought by Telchar himself or by his master Gamil Zirak the old, or by elven wrights more skillful still. For some things he received in gift that came out of Valinor and were wrought by Feanor in his mastery, than whom no craftsman was greater in all the days of the world." This establishes a picture of Elven or Dwarven warriors of the first age, clad in mail hauberks and high conical helms, bearing their deadly arms with shield"

    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • RocketeerRocketeer Member UncommonPosts: 1,303

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    I don't recall anything about full plate in the books. My recollection was that everything was chain and perhaps with some plates? I'd be happy if someone who is extremely versed in Lord of the Rings minutiae to correct me if I'm wrong.

    But as I said, the mongols only used leather and silk and they kicked the butts of knights in Plate Armor. Therefore a system that allowed for the full protection of plate armor but allowing for non-armored or light armored fighters to be more versatile, more quick, could work.

    Would have to be in the Silmarillon or the Appendixes, ages since i read that, might just have been an omission though and i went ahead picturing them in fullplate :D

    And stop it with the mongols :D. Or do you know for a fact that there ever was a equal numbers of knigths and mongols fighting a battle with knights loosing? Im not convinced 20 000 mongols defeating 200 knights in a battle goes a long way proving the superiority of wearing no armor(only noblemen could afford plate armor, knights where comperatively rare). While mobility is crucial in any war, it wasn't the heavy armor on knights that slowed european armies down to a crawl, it was the footsoldiers and supply wagons. Or do you think the european knights would have done any better vs the mongols if they had taken off their armor before battle? Makes no sense.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937

    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    I don't recall anything about full plate in the books. My recollection was that everything was chain and perhaps with some plates? I'd be happy if someone who is extremely versed in Lord of the Rings minutiae to correct me if I'm wrong.

    But as I said, the mongols only used leather and silk and they kicked the butts of knights in Plate Armor. Therefore a system that allowed for the full protection of plate armor but allowing for non-armored or light armored fighters to be more versatile, more quick, could work.

    Would have to be in the Silmarillon or the Appendixes, ages since i read that, might just have been an omission though and i went ahead picturing them in fullplate :D

    And stop it with the mongols :D. Or do you know for a fact that there ever was a equal numbers of knigths and mongols fighting a battle with knights loosing? Im not convinced 20 000 mongols defeating 200 knights in a battle goes a long way proving the superiority of wearing no armor(only noblemen could afford plate armor, knights where comperatively rare). While mobility is crucial in any war, it wasn't the heavy armor on knights that slowed european armies down to a crawl, it was the footsoldiers and supply wagons. Or do you think the european knights would have done any better vs the mongols if they had taken off their armor before battle? Makes no sense.

    Just added a quote above, will look for more.

    As far as I knew, any armies that went out to meet the mongols were crushed. I've read that it was their speed and light armor with silk undershirts that gave them an advantage along with their use of the bow.

    I don't have numbers but I imagine that it wasn't just 20 knights. Keep in mind that the Mongols went right up to Vienna. They conqured parts of Russia. They were one of the most superior fighting forces around.

    One on one? My bet would be on a light, very mobile warrior over a plate wearing noble.

    However, I don't think the use of magic is required to get through plate over leather or chain mail.

     

    The problem with armor and magic in these games is that their use is a bit imagined.

    A spear user would have a very specific role in a battle as would an archer and a knight.

    however, in fantasy books and games, characters have armor and weapons based on their class and an artificial system is then created to balance it all out.

    Now add the use of magic and it throws everything out of wack. Probably why Tolkien didn't have Gandalf or Saruman throwing lightning and fire balls at every chance that they could.

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  • jdnewelljdnewell Member UncommonPosts: 2,237

    The Hobbit- Chapter IV-Over Hill and Under Hill

    "Out jumped the goblins, big goblins, great ugly-looking goblins, lots of goblins, before you could say rocks and blocks, There were six to each dwarf, at least, and two even for bilbo; and they were all grabbed and carried through the crack, before you could say flint and tender. But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had awakened him up wide in a splintered second, when the goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead."

    Chapter IV page 56

     

    I would say that magic is very much a part of LOTR, maybe not everyone and their cousin using it. But in the lore just the same.

    To say that there is NO magic is the lore IMO just shows how little most people know about the lore they claim to love.

    Just my 2cp

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937

    Originally posted by jdnewell

    The Hobbit- Chapter IV-Over Hill and Under Hill

    "Out jumped the goblins, big goblins, great ugly-looking goblins, lots of goblins, before you could say rocks and blocks, There were six to each dwarf, at least, and two even for bilbo; and they were all grabbed and carried through the crack, before you could say flint and tender. But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had awakened him up wide in a splintered second, when the goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead."

    Chapter IV page 56

     

    I would say that magic is very much a part of LOTR, maybe not everyone and their cousin using it. But in the lore just the same.

    To say that there is NO magic is the lore IMO just shows how little most people know about the lore they claim to love.

    Just my 2cp

    Oh I definitely agree and good find on that quote!

    I find it interesting that there was a "smell like gunpowder" as it begs the question of "how much was "magic' and how much was science construed as magic"?

     

    Of course there is magic in The Lord of the Rings/Hobbit but it's interesting that Saruman uses what is essentially an explosive powder to bring down the wall of Helm's deep. Though you know what? I believe in some ways that is a "movie moment" as it isn't clear that it was gunpowder that was used.

    In any case I wonder if the magic of Middle Earth falls into nature magic and some mixture of regular old science.

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  • Gardavil2Gardavil2 Member Posts: 394


    Originally posted by Rocketeer
    Actually it was mostly idealists complaining about RKs and LMs, not really lore fans(im a fan of the lore, but i accept that its still a game). You know the same people complaining that it should take weeks to reach rivendell from bree and not half an hour. The RK actually makes just as much sense as the minstrel or LM, what people need to understand is two things:
    1. Disable Combat FX in options, these are eyecandy for the player and do not represent what the character ingame would see(this is from a devpost on turbine forums). Like the Warden shield bubble, the LMs Ents go to War, conjunctions or any special effects of purely physical attacks really.
    2. Read the skills and their names, the RK isn't actually shooting lightning from his fingers or setting people aflame. He uses Words of power or Runes set in stone to archive similar effects on his targets, which is covered by the lore(hobbits calling on elbereth to ward of evil creatures or the rune based voice activation of moria). But really skill names like "shocking words" should be a bit of a clue in shouldn't they?
    Also RKs abilities are on the scale of an simple arrow fired by an human archer, thats a far cry below what elder elves like elrond or galadriel or istari like gandalf could do. 
     
    If your the least bit objective you'll see there is nothing wrong with RKs under these premises, atleast not if you can accept that a guardian can recover from the blow of a balrog by having someone play a merry tune or that your chars are essentially immortal. 

    This pretty much sums up my opinions on the subject.

    I am a Tolkien fan and I would have to say there was at launch already enough features in LotRO that would be "gray areas" as far as lore to start a year long argument... which is exactly what happened and worse.

    Seriously, once the MEO project hit the trash can and the LotRO took it's place any real thought of "Lore Correctness" kind of died right there. Turbine has done a fairly good job considering the various and many pressures to make LotRO a ME WoW (another discussion). I myself eventually gave up on my own arguments against some of the design of LotRO when I realized this.... and I *was* one of those maniacs that was upset about how small the ingame world was in LotRO... I was disappointed that a ride from Bree to Rivendell takes less than an hour. I gave up on all that because I realized that MMOs aren't about creative benchmarks, nor will they ever be a mix of virtual reality and game combined in a quality way, NO.... MMOs are about money. Period. Profit drives MMO design; customer satisfaction (overall) adjusts MMO design. I really hate that it is this way but it is.

    As a side note my old main character was a Guardian, it is now a RK... and quite frankly what each class is able to do is fairly "gray area", just like the other classes. I also feel as others do that Runes and there use is very much Tolkien and Middle Earth.... it's just like all the other classes Turbine got "creative" a little bit too much for my taste.

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  • SgtFrogSgtFrog Member Posts: 5,001

    Originally posted by jdnewell

    The Hobbit- Chapter IV-Over Hill and Under Hill

    "Out jumped the goblins, big goblins, great ugly-looking goblins, lots of goblins, before you could say rocks and blocks, There were six to each dwarf, at least, and two even for bilbo; and they were all grabbed and carried through the crack, before you could say flint and tender. But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had awakened him up wide in a splintered second, when the goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead."

    Chapter IV page 56

     

    I would say that magic is very much a part of LOTR, maybe not everyone and their cousin using it. But in the lore just the same.

    To say that there is NO magic is the lore IMO just shows how little most people know about the lore they claim to love.

    Just my 2cp

    I don't think anyone said that LOTR had no magic but it was just not as common as it is in LOTRO.


    Only a handful of people could use magic.


     


    But then again middle had even less hobbit fighters but they are everywhere in LOTRO as well but no one seems to have any issue with that.


     


    Having thousands oh hobbit guardians is just as lore-breaking as the RK.

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937

    Originally posted by SgtFrog

    Originally posted by jdnewell

    The Hobbit- Chapter IV-Over Hill and Under Hill

    "Out jumped the goblins, big goblins, great ugly-looking goblins, lots of goblins, before you could say rocks and blocks, There were six to each dwarf, at least, and two even for bilbo; and they were all grabbed and carried through the crack, before you could say flint and tender. But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had awakened him up wide in a splintered second, when the goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead."

    Chapter IV page 56

     

    I would say that magic is very much a part of LOTR, maybe not everyone and their cousin using it. But in the lore just the same.

    To say that there is NO magic is the lore IMO just shows how little most people know about the lore they claim to love.

    Just my 2cp

    I don't think anyone said that LOTR had no magic but it was just not as common as it is in LOTRO.


    Only a handful of people could use magic.


     


    But then again middle had even less hobbit fighters but they are everywhere in LOTRO as well but no one seems to have any issue with that.


     


    Having thousands oh hobbit guardians is just as lore-breaking as the RK.

    That's why, in many ways, this IP is very difficult to set. Bree as a major hub town for all races? Moria being taken over by dwarves way before it actually happened?

    I can easily see why developers would have issues setting this game. I've gone over it in my mind as to the way that "I" would prefer the game to have been made but I always run into issues as I would prefer a far more open world but where the major areas were not grand central station.

    The closest I could come to which is not exactly what I think would work is a game more like guild wars where the world is strictly there for the party but where players can meet in hub camps.

    Not exactly an mmo.

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  • SgtFrogSgtFrog Member Posts: 5,001

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by SgtFrog


    Originally posted by jdnewell

    The Hobbit- Chapter IV-Over Hill and Under Hill

    "Out jumped the goblins, big goblins, great ugly-looking goblins, lots of goblins, before you could say rocks and blocks, There were six to each dwarf, at least, and two even for bilbo; and they were all grabbed and carried through the crack, before you could say flint and tender. But not Gandalf. Bilbo's yell had done that much good. It had awakened him up wide in a splintered second, when the goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead."

    Chapter IV page 56

     

    I would say that magic is very much a part of LOTR, maybe not everyone and their cousin using it. But in the lore just the same.

    To say that there is NO magic is the lore IMO just shows how little most people know about the lore they claim to love.

    Just my 2cp

    I don't think anyone said that LOTR had no magic but it was just not as common as it is in LOTRO.


    Only a handful of people could use magic.


     


    But then again middle had even less hobbit fighters but they are everywhere in LOTRO as well but no one seems to have any issue with that.


     


    Having thousands oh hobbit guardians is just as lore-breaking as the RK.

    That's why, in many ways, this IP is very difficult to set. Bree as a major hub town for all races? Moria being taken over by dwarves way before it actually happened?

    I can easily see why developers would have issues setting this game. I've gone over it in my mind as to the way that "I" would prefer the game to have been made but I always run into issues as I would prefer a far more open world but where the major areas were not grand central station.

    The closest I could come to which is not exactly what I think would work is a game more like guild wars where the world is strictly there for the party but where players can meet in hub camps.

    Not exactly an mmo.


    And anyone can walk freely into Rivendell :P


     


    There is allot of things that are Lore-Breaking in this game but I don’t think it loses the overall feel of the LOTR , a game sticking to 100% of the lore would not be fun at all.

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  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Member Posts: 1,832

    Originally posted by jaxsundane

    Originally posted by Rockgod99


    Originally posted by sadeyx

    The Runekeeper is a fantastic class!   Most everyone I know who rolls one to try it out almost always end up making it their main.

     

    Wether its in keeping with the lore or not is irrelevent.  First and formost lotro is a game.

    It certainly is relevent... one class bending the lore/ip is acceptable but i can promise you if turbine went crazy and started handing out shit like druids and shaman classes the majority of the players that only play for the storyline and the love of the IP will leave and lotro would be left with about 5% of the players that only care about raid loot...

     The problem I have with this line of thinking is that we are fans in this forum talking about what the lore means to us personally, while Turbine is the company that has been entrusted with the lore and to me that stands for a bit more than the fan who has an affinity for it.

    If Turbine made flying mounts tommorrow I doubt it would be against the wishes of Tolkiens estate (which if I remember right they still have to clear all they do with them including the RK and LM classes) and this is who Tolkien entrusted with the lore, I may not agree with what they do with it but they certainly have the right to.

    And I have to disagree with you on your point about what would happen if they strayed too far from the lore, I've been playing the game for about two years and in my travels I've met a few people who were really into the lore and these were never the people all bent out of shape over percieved breaks in the lore, and this was a really hardcore rp guild that spent hours in rp sessions with walls of text taken straight out of the works of Tolkien (not the movies).  Half the time I rarely understood what they were talking about.

    Just a side note... Tolkiens Estate (a.k.a. Christopher Tolkien) has no say whatsoever about what makes it into the game. It's Tolkien Enterprises (a.k.a. Saul Zaentz, inc) that bought the licenses years ago...and can give thumbs up or thumbs down....... and frankly I wouldn't be surprised to see them give approval to pigs with wings if the price were right.

     

  • GrumpyMel2GrumpyMel2 Member Posts: 1,832

    Originally posted by Rocketeer

    Originally posted by Rockgod99


    Originally posted by sadeyx

    The Runekeeper is a fantastic class!   Most everyone I know who rolls one to try it out almost always end up making it their main.

     

    Wether its in keeping with the lore or not is irrelevent.  First and formost lotro is a game.

    It certainly is relevent... one class bending the lore/ip is acceptable but i can promise you if turbine went crazy and started handing out shit like druids and shaman classes the majority of the players that only play for the storyline and the love of the IP will leave and lotro would be left with about 5% of the players that only care about raid loot...

    I don't think its bending the lore as much as people pretend. I mean its not actually doing anything thats against the lore, there just didn't happen to be RK, LM or Minstrel in the LotRO trilogy or the hobbit. But there isn't actually much discussion that runes or words have power in middle earth, and obviously there have to be people tending/writing these runes or researching the lore around these words of power. Kinda doubt elrond was studying grammar or origami in his library.

    Really, i urge you to just read their skills and class description, and to disable the combat FX effects in options. Go and see for yourself how much lore breakage is still there after turning of the "special effects" which all classes have to some extend or other. 

    I'm sorry but "The don't pay attention to anything you see" line just doesn't cut it. There are some things that are clearly intended to not be a part of the game world but the UI...such as the ant-exploit symbols above stuck mobs heads....or the spectral, translucent CJ animations...... The RK force-lightning effects are clearly of a different category...Turbine presented them in such a way that they are clearly intended to be seen in the game world...... and they really have no place there.

    Yeah....Magic isn't completey absent from Middle Earth of the 3rd Age.... But loud, flashy magic really has no place there.....aside from maybe the 5 Wizards and a handfull of powerfull Elf Lords.....and even then it's a bit questionable...

    It's a Low Magic setting. period. (Note...not NO Magic... LOW magic)

     

     

     

     

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