What would be a significant percentage? If 30% of the playerbase battled in the 2200 bracket and completed 25 man hard mode content, id consider that significant.
There are between 9,900-10,000 teams above 2200 according to S-K. Team sizes varying between 2-5 and with players being on multiple teams... that is not many players.
Those are worldwide numbers, by the way - so that would be out of the over 12 million players.
It's a level of play that only real gamers can attain. Whoever hasn't hit 2200 is obviously not a real gamer.
But that's just the point. Wow caters to BOTH audiences. It targets the majority with easier heroics, or regular modes, but people can play competitive. It is easier at the bottom end, but harder at the higher end. So how much easier is that really?
If your trully a "real" gamer, your going to be competing with players that are very good. But, if the fact that you can't completely segregate the average player into doing nothing bothers you, than elitism is obvious.
Edit: And, i'm not refering to you specifically, just towards the line of thought your addressing.
Because the average player wants access to the content, the game company cannot keep it exclusive.
I give props to those groups that are the first to go through any instance. Those that go in there without having had the opportunity to read a walkthrough that tells them everything they need to do - those that go in there without addons that flash warnings because the scripted encounters are something you could set your watch by...
...those that come after that...well...I remember when my stepson first tied his shoes. I give him more credit for having done that.
We're agreeing on something, but I'm not connecting the dots. The game is not exclusive, which is why the average content is meant for average people. But the hard content is made for people that dedicate more time and commitment to form coordinated efforts. I'm saying this is a good thing, are you saying it's bad?
I am saying that the coordinated effort to fight bosses in BC was less than it was in Vanilla. That in LK it was less than in BC. That one could make the educated guess on various changes already implemented or coming, that it will be less in Cata.
I feel that with each expansion, the higher end content should have been more exclusive. That it should not simply be about a gear check and being able to follow a walkthrough...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
But that's just the point. Wow caters to BOTH audiences. It targets the majority with easier heroics, or regular modes, but people can play competitive. It is easier at the bottom end, but harder at the higher end. So how much easier is that really?
If your trully a "real" gamer, your going to be competing with players that are very good. But, if the fact that you can't completely segregate the average player into doing nothing bothers you, than elitism is obvious.
Edit: And, i'm not refering to you specifically, just towards the line of thought your addressing.
Because the average player wants access to the content, the game company cannot keep it exclusive.
I give props to those groups that are the first to go through any instance. Those that go in there without having had the opportunity to read a walkthrough that tells them everything they need to do - those that go in there without addons that flash warnings because the scripted encounters are something you could set your watch by...
...those that come after that...well...I remember when my stepson first tied his shoes. I give him more credit for having done that.
We're agreeing on something, but I'm not connecting the dots. The game is not exclusive, which is why the average content is meant for average people. But the hard content is made for people that dedicate more time and commitment to form coordinated efforts. I'm saying this is a good thing, are you saying it's bad?
I am saying that the coordinated effort to fight bosses in BC was less than it was in Vanilla. That in LK it was less than in BC. That one could make the educated guess on various changes already implemented or coming, that it will be less in Cata.
I feel that with each expansion, the higher end content should have been more exclusive. That it should not simply be about a gear check and being able to follow a walkthrough...
Ah okay. And thats just were i disagree. Hard mode icc was harder than anyhting in vanilla. Regular modes however, were laughable. Now, if you want the content to be exclusive, that's a different story. If you want to just compete on top levels of content , which are (for better or worse) arena, rated bg's, and hard modes, than you won't have a problem. But , if you were going off diffculty alone, sunwell, heroic icc, nad hardmodes ulduar are bar none the hardest encounters in game.
What would be a significant percentage? If 30% of the playerbase battled in the 2200 bracket and completed 25 man hard mode content, id consider that significant.
There are between 9,900-10,000 teams above 2200 according to S-K. Team sizes varying between 2-5 and with players being on multiple teams... that is not many players.
Those are worldwide numbers, by the way - so that would be out of the over 12 million players.
It's a level of play that only real gamers can attain. Whoever hasn't hit 2200 is obviously not a real gamer.
I was just providing numbers. The 2200 people would be the better folks. I would have to agree with going with the 1800 number instead for something like this.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Originally posted by jadedlevir Originally posted by Foomerang
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Foomerang
Apparently, so do i, heh. I apologize if anyone has taken offense to my definition of a gamer. I can see that touched a nerve with some folks. I do however, stand by the overall point of my posts pertaining to the talent trees and the state of wow. It has become a game for people who dont normally play games. Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. Anyway, im done. I came to state my opinion on this topic and im not going to get bated into defending myself instead of the argument.
The following argument is useless:
"Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. "
No one believes that. And you can say it about almost every other game in existence. All other game populations do not contain 100% "hardcore" players as you now put it. But there is certainly a significant percentage of WoW players that are "hardcore". Just like there is a significant percentage of EVE players that are "hardcore".
What would be a significant percentage? If 30% of the playerbase battled in the 2200 bracket and completed 25 man hard mode content, id consider that significant. Why is that percentage relevant at all, thats my question. If you, you personally are good, you won't be competing with that other percent of the player base anyway, so why does it matter, besides for the average " i'm better than you, hah" stuff? Its relevant to the conversation you quoted because we were talking about bizzards target audience. If you want to talk about my particular enjoyment of the game, that topic has been covered in previous posts, unrelated to what you quoted.
Anyone that doesn't acknowledge that there was very little choice in builds before, esp. when it came to raiding and "serious" pvp, has no clue what they're talking about. Trying being in a raid guild or arena team without having the "optimal" spec for your class. You'll be told to spec a certain way or gtfo. There was some wiggle room for a talent point or two here and there but it was mostly cookie cutter builds.
WoW is a gear game. The spec goes to the gear. If you do not have certain gear, certain specs are better until you have that gear. That includes both serious PvP and Raiding.
If you're talking, pre-80, then maybe. But at 80 your spec has very little to do with gear other than removing a talent that, for example, improves your hit rating or intellect because you already have enough of it with the gear you have. Again, thats only a few talent points, the rest are still spent in talents that are pretty much mandatory. So really, nothing has changed other than preventing people from using retarded specs because they think they're being smart and clever.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Apparently, so do i, heh. I apologize if anyone has taken offense to my definition of a gamer. I can see that touched a nerve with some folks. I do however, stand by the overall point of my posts pertaining to the talent trees and the state of wow. It has become a game for people who dont normally play games. Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. Anyway, im done. I came to state my opinion on this topic and im not going to get bated into defending myself instead of the argument.
The following argument is useless:
"Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. "
No one believes that. And you can say it about almost every other game in existence. All other game populations do not contain 100% "hardcore" players as you now put it. But there is certainly a significant percentage of WoW players that are "hardcore". Just like there is a significant percentage of EVE players that are "hardcore".
What would be a significant percentage? If 30% of the playerbase battled in the 2200 bracket and completed 25 man hard mode content, id consider that significant.
Why is that percentage relevant at all, thats my question. If you, you personally are good, you won't be competing with that other percent of the player base anyway, so why does it matter, besides for the average " i'm better than you, hah" stuff?
Its relevant to the conversation you quoted because we were talking about bizzards target audience. If you want to talk about my particular enjoyment of the game, that topic has been covered in previous posts, unrelated to what you quoted.
Yes, i read it, and im still asking why it is relevant. You said no real gamers play based off the arguement of the average player and target audiences. However, if the average player can play at average levels, and the abover-average and above average level, that percent is irrelevant.
Edit: for clarification. I'm saying it's pointless to pit the statistics of good vs bad players when good players don't compete with the bad players. Or average players,or casual, or whatever you want to label them.
If there was two players in darkfall who just crapped all over everyone else and never died, would the fact that 2 out of 4000(?) players are the best mean everyone else sucks. Obivously im using a hyperbole for this specific case, but i thnk you understand. Anyway, thats all, and im off.
I am saying that the coordinated effort to fight bosses in BC was less than it was in Vanilla. That in LK it was less than in BC. That one could make the educated guess on various changes already implemented or coming, that it will be less in Cata.
I feel that with each expansion, the higher end content should have been more exclusive. That it should not simply be about a gear check and being able to follow a walkthrough...
Ah okay. And thats just were i disagree. Hard mode icc was harder than anyhting in vanilla. Regular modes however, were laughable. Now, if you want the content to be exclusive, that's a different story. If you want to just compete on top levels of content , which are (for better or worse) arena, rated bg's, and hard modes, than you won't have a problem. But , if you were going off diffculty alone, sunwell, heroic icc, nad hardmodes ulduar are bar none the hardest encounters in game.
You said it clearly here. The game is actually far more competitive and harder than it's ever been.
The game is more inviting to casuals overall, but it also offers greater challenges for those that pursue them. Greater than ever before. And many, many people pursue the challenges in WoW.
Analogy is bad but... voted good change. What they did is remove the filler talents and made them inherent. Now your choices, all of them, mean something. Its also awesome that you get your spec before the cap. Now if I could get past the toons this would matter
Make me some stylised alternate models that don't have look off in some way and I'm back so fast. About the closest I can live with is human female but the jiggly butt kills it for me. Granted it better than the ape male models and their prancy run
Originally posted by jadedlevir Originally posted by Foomerang
Originally posted by jadedlevir
Originally posted by Foomerang
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Foomerang
Apparently, so do i, heh. I apologize if anyone has taken offense to my definition of a gamer. I can see that touched a nerve with some folks. I do however, stand by the overall point of my posts pertaining to the talent trees and the state of wow. It has become a game for people who dont normally play games. Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. Anyway, im done. I came to state my opinion on this topic and im not going to get bated into defending myself instead of the argument.
The following argument is useless:
"Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. "
No one believes that. And you can say it about almost every other game in existence. All other game populations do not contain 100% "hardcore" players as you now put it. But there is certainly a significant percentage of WoW players that are "hardcore". Just like there is a significant percentage of EVE players that are "hardcore".
What would be a significant percentage? If 30% of the playerbase battled in the 2200 bracket and completed 25 man hard mode content, id consider that significant.
Why is that percentage relevant at all, thats my question. If you, you personally are good, you won't be competing with that other percent of the player base anyway, so why does it matter, besides for the average " i'm better than you, hah" stuff?
Its relevant to the conversation you quoted because we were talking about bizzards target audience. If you want to talk about my particular enjoyment of the game, that topic has been covered in previous posts, unrelated to what you quoted. Yes, i read it, and im still asking why it is relevant. You said no real gamers play based off the arguement of the average player and target audiences. However, if the average player can play at average levels, and the abover-average and above average level, that percent is irrelevant. Ok for starters, id like to see where, in any of my posts, i coined the phrase "real gamer". Whatever anyone has read into my posts about elitism, or me being some self proclaimed hardcore gamer, well sorry but thats on you for assuming things about me and seeing what you want to see in my posts. Not sure what else to say here because i find myself having to defend my character based off of assumed information about me. Unless im reading all these posts wrong too haha
Anyone that doesn't acknowledge that there was very little choice in builds before, esp. when it came to raiding and "serious" pvp, has no clue what they're talking about. Trying being in a raid guild or arena team without having the "optimal" spec for your class. You'll be told to spec a certain way or gtfo. There was some wiggle room for a talent point or two here and there but it was mostly cookie cutter builds.
WoW is a gear game. The spec goes to the gear. If you do not have certain gear, certain specs are better until you have that gear. That includes both serious PvP and Raiding.
If you're talking, pre-80, then maybe. But at 80 your spec has very little to do with gear other than removing a talent that, for example, improves your hit rating or intellect because you already have enough of it with the gear you have. Again, thats only a few talent points, the rest are still spent in talents that are pretty much mandatory. So really, nothing has changed other than preventing people from using retarded specs because they think they're being smart and clever.
Are you kidding? The stats difference between a fresh 80 and a raiding 80 is usually double or more. There is that much gear disparity between a fresh 80 and somebody that is following some form of raid progression. EJ is full of specs to run until you reach a certain gear point. WoW is a gear game... spec reflects gear.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Yes, i read it, and im still asking why it is relevant. You said no real gamers play based off the arguement of the average player and target audiences. However, if the average player can play at average levels, and the abover-average and above average level, that percent is irrelevant.
Ok for starters, id like to see where, in any of my posts, i coined the phrase "real gamer". Whatever anyone has read into my posts about elitism, or me being some self proclaimed hardcore gamer, well sorry but thats on you for assuming things about me and seeing what you want to see in my posts. Not sure what else to say here because i find myself having to defend my character based off of assumed information about me. Unless im reading all these posts wrong too haha
I really don't know when the term real gamer got thrown out, i thought it was you when you said no real gamers play wow. And saying that you and your friends are real gamers and wouldn't play wow cuz its for ppl who basically suck and dont have cooridination to play other games is very elite in it's own respect. Then again, these quotes are getting overly long, so maybe something got lost in transition.
Anyone that doesn't acknowledge that there was very little choice in builds before, esp. when it came to raiding and "serious" pvp, has no clue what they're talking about. Trying being in a raid guild or arena team without having the "optimal" spec for your class. You'll be told to spec a certain way or gtfo. There was some wiggle room for a talent point or two here and there but it was mostly cookie cutter builds.
WoW is a gear game. The spec goes to the gear. If you do not have certain gear, certain specs are better until you have that gear. That includes both serious PvP and Raiding.
If you're talking, pre-80, then maybe. But at 80 your spec has very little to do with gear other than removing a talent that, for example, improves your hit rating or intellect because you already have enough of it with the gear you have. Again, thats only a few talent points, the rest are still spent in talents that are pretty much mandatory. So really, nothing has changed other than preventing people from using retarded specs because they think they're being smart and clever.
Are you kidding? The stats difference between a fresh 80 and a raiding 80 is usually double or more. There is that much gear disparity between a fresh 80 and somebody that is following some form of raid progression. EJ is full of specs to run until you reach a certain gear point. WoW is a gear game... spec reflects gear.
Well i do agree that how you play depends on what your gear is, but it usually wasn't relient too much on spec. You would have to change around , as a rogue that i play for example, a talent that buffed bleeds vs a physical damage increased as your ap and arp changed. But, it was, as he said, only a few points. The biggest changed occured in how you actually played it afterwards, which this talent change does not change. And you will still have to move talents based on gear, just less raw amounts of talents will be changed, but that thoerycrafting is still there.
Also, i'd like to point how that alot of this theorycrafting didin't exist in vanilla. It was their, but it wasn't anywhere near intensive on the min-max scale. The individual mattered less in larger raids, and for the most part, was much easier to play a class. Anyone remember mages?
Anyone that doesn't acknowledge that there was very little choice in builds before, esp. when it came to raiding and "serious" pvp, has no clue what they're talking about. Trying being in a raid guild or arena team without having the "optimal" spec for your class. You'll be told to spec a certain way or gtfo. There was some wiggle room for a talent point or two here and there but it was mostly cookie cutter builds.
WoW is a gear game. The spec goes to the gear. If you do not have certain gear, certain specs are better until you have that gear. That includes both serious PvP and Raiding.
If you're talking, pre-80, then maybe. But at 80 your spec has very little to do with gear other than removing a talent that, for example, improves your hit rating or intellect because you already have enough of it with the gear you have. Again, thats only a few talent points, the rest are still spent in talents that are pretty much mandatory. So really, nothing has changed other than preventing people from using retarded specs because they think they're being smart and clever.
Are you kidding? The stats difference between a fresh 80 and a raiding 80 is usually double or more. There is that much gear disparity between a fresh 80 and somebody that is following some form of raid progression. EJ is full of specs to run until you reach a certain gear point. WoW is a gear game... spec reflects gear.
Judging from your response, I know now you have very little knowledge on this subject. Most classes don't spec based on on gear, and if they do its with the type of talents I mentioned before. Theres a few set bonuses for some of the gear (T9 T10 ect) but people rarely if ever spec specifically for them. Please give me some examples of a spec based on gear that is more than 2 or 3 points.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
I am saying that the coordinated effort to fight bosses in BC was less than it was in Vanilla. That in LK it was less than in BC. That one could make the educated guess on various changes already implemented or coming, that it will be less in Cata.
I feel that with each expansion, the higher end content should have been more exclusive. That it should not simply be about a gear check and being able to follow a walkthrough...
Ah okay. And thats just were i disagree. Hard mode icc was harder than anyhting in vanilla. Regular modes however, were laughable. Now, if you want the content to be exclusive, that's a different story. If you want to just compete on top levels of content , which are (for better or worse) arena, rated bg's, and hard modes, than you won't have a problem. But , if you were going off diffculty alone, sunwell, heroic icc, nad hardmodes ulduar are bar none the hardest encounters in game.
You said it clearly here. The game is actually far more competitive and harder than it's ever been.
The game is more inviting to casuals overall, but it also offers greater challenges for those that pursue them. Greater than ever before. And many, many people pursue the challenges in WoW.
A tiny part of the game is competitive. The rest of the game is easier. And you cannot see why people that may not be interested in the full time raiding job are complaining that the game they enjoyed has become easier?
As for the hard/heroic modes - it is difficult to compare those in difficulty to be honest. Without getting into the argument whether 10 or 25 man is harder; take which you think is easier... x man ICC vs. x man ICC H. Now go back to Vanilla WoW with the way the game was. Have MC, BWL, Naxx, AQ as your easier version and then make a H version of it. Would you still think that the encounters are more difficult?
Imagine a 40 man Heroic MC with some of those guys on hard-mode...with level 60 characters as they existed before the release of Burning Crusade.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I am saying that the coordinated effort to fight bosses in BC was less than it was in Vanilla. That in LK it was less than in BC. That one could make the educated guess on various changes already implemented or coming, that it will be less in Cata.
I feel that with each expansion, the higher end content should have been more exclusive. That it should not simply be about a gear check and being able to follow a walkthrough...
Ah okay. And thats just were i disagree. Hard mode icc was harder than anyhting in vanilla. Regular modes however, were laughable. Now, if you want the content to be exclusive, that's a different story. If you want to just compete on top levels of content , which are (for better or worse) arena, rated bg's, and hard modes, than you won't have a problem. But , if you were going off diffculty alone, sunwell, heroic icc, nad hardmodes ulduar are bar none the hardest encounters in game.
You said it clearly here. The game is actually far more competitive and harder than it's ever been.
The game is more inviting to casuals overall, but it also offers greater challenges for those that pursue them. Greater than ever before. And many, many people pursue the challenges in WoW.
A tiny part of the game is competitive. The rest of the game is easier. And you cannot see why people that may not be interested in the full time raiding job are complaining that the game they enjoyed has become easier?
As for the hard/heroic modes - it is difficult to compare those in difficulty to be honest. Without getting into the argument whether 10 or 25 man is harder; take which you think is easier... x man ICC vs. x man ICC H. Now go back to Vanilla WoW with the way the game was. Have MC, BWL, Naxx, AQ as your easier version and then make a H version of it. Would you still think that the encounters are more difficult?
Imagine a 40 man Heroic MC with some of those guys on hard-mode...with level 60 characters as they existed before the release of Burning Crusade.
I can understand people not liking the game. I understand it when people like vanilla more than the current version.
What I can't understand and what I disagree strongly with is the following sentiment:
Originally posted by Foomerang
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Yes, i read it, and im still asking why it is relevant. You said no real gamers play based off the arguement of the average player and target audiences. However, if the average player can play at average levels, and the abover-average and above average level, that percent is irrelevant.
Ok for starters, id like to see where, in any of my posts, i coined the phrase "real gamer". Whatever anyone has read into my posts about elitism, or me being some self proclaimed hardcore gamer, well sorry but thats on you for assuming things about me and seeing what you want to see in my posts. Not sure what else to say here because i find myself having to defend my character based off of assumed information about me. Unless im reading all these posts wrong too haha I really don't know when the term real gamer got thrown out, i thought it was you when you said no real gamers play wow. And saying that you and your friends are real gamers and wouldn't play wow cuz its for ppl who basically suck and dont have cooridination to play other games is very elite in it's own respect. Then again, these quotes are getting overly long, so maybe something got lost in transition. Lol no i never wrote any of that. My friends and i consider ourselves gamers, because, well thats what weve done our whole lives. We all started wow at launch and now, im the last one to leave. I feel, as a gamer, that wow has become less involved over the years and the simplicity of the game caters more to non-gamers. Case in point i used an example of a lot of my non-gaming coworkers have discovered wow and are playing it with their kids. I even armoried their toons and their gearscores are rockin. So im done with wow, looking for a new game i can geek out on. Thats the summary of my opinion on this threads topic. Some people took that and went to work on my character (not cool) and now, im being harrassed over made up quotes, great.
Anyone that doesn't acknowledge that there was very little choice in builds before, esp. when it came to raiding and "serious" pvp, has no clue what they're talking about. Trying being in a raid guild or arena team without having the "optimal" spec for your class. You'll be told to spec a certain way or gtfo. There was some wiggle room for a talent point or two here and there but it was mostly cookie cutter builds.
WoW is a gear game. The spec goes to the gear. If you do not have certain gear, certain specs are better until you have that gear. That includes both serious PvP and Raiding.
If you're talking, pre-80, then maybe. But at 80 your spec has very little to do with gear other than removing a talent that, for example, improves your hit rating or intellect because you already have enough of it with the gear you have. Again, thats only a few talent points, the rest are still spent in talents that are pretty much mandatory. So really, nothing has changed other than preventing people from using retarded specs because they think they're being smart and clever.
Are you kidding? The stats difference between a fresh 80 and a raiding 80 is usually double or more. There is that much gear disparity between a fresh 80 and somebody that is following some form of raid progression. EJ is full of specs to run until you reach a certain gear point. WoW is a gear game... spec reflects gear.
Judging from your response, I know now you have very little knowledge on this subject. Most classes don't spec based on on gear, and if they do its with the type of talents I mentioned before. Theres a few set bonuses for some of the gear (T9 T10 ect) but people rarely if ever spec specifically for them. Please give me some examples of a spec based on gear that is more than 2 or 3 points.
I can understand people not liking the game. I understand it when people like vanilla more than the current version.
What I can't understand and what I disagree strongly with is the following sentiment:
Originally posted by Foomerang
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
I find this ridiculous.
I suppose I did not read into what he said in the same way originally. I simply looked at the larger picture of what was being said, and for the most part I agree with it.
The average player in WoW has changed from Vanilla to what it is now at the end of Wrath. When WoW came out, the population was mainly made up of those that had played other MMORPGs or were players of Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo. They were gamers.
For many that come to WoW now, it is there first MMORPG. They may have had limited exposure to some of the simpler console games, Facebook apps, and the like. While they still play games, they are not gamers in the sense of those of the intitial audience.
The average content in the game reflects that change in audience.
Did I ignore the elitism and condescending tone that could be read into what was said? Perhaps, but that is only because it is impossible to deny that WoW's intended main audience has changed since inception and that the game for the average player reflects that.
While personally I find this disappointing, Blizzard is a business and they are growing that business. If they did not take this approach, they would not have the success on their hands that they do.
Did we know that this was likely in hindsight? There were those that mocked WoW from the start. So it was always there. I suppose we were comfortable with where it was though and now lament what it has become.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I just can't understand this mentality that people who have been playing mmos for years are not "gamers".
What exactly makes someone less of a gamer than others? This line of thinking reminds me of the high school music cliques where it becomes uncool to listen to some band that finds wide appeal as if more people finding their music enjoyable somehow makes them lesser music listeners. Give me a break.
I suppose the original everquest doesn't still try to target the same market, because it has drastically changes over the years?
Games evolve over time. Having a few more years experience playing a mmos doesn't make anyone a special type of gamer that all other latecomers to the market can not possibly share commonalities with, let alone be placed in the same classification. As if the DNA make up of people who play mmos changed in nov 2004 or something.
The name of the game is accessibility, and that's what Ghostcrawler is aiming for. How to get more people to play this game. Not necessarly people from other MMO's, but new people who have never touched an MMO. It's pretty obvious by now, seeing how they catter to the "newbie" people.
Now, people seem to be either hyped about the changes or displeased with them. Which is all fine, but what I don't get, is how someone who has played this game for many years can still be hyped about this game as a whole. I mean, how long can you keep chasing that carrot? How fulfilling is it to keep getting gear, for no other purpose then to the get gear, raid after raid? I mean, do you realize the gear you are getting is gonna serve no other purpose then to help you get more gear...? There's no end.
I was hoping cataclysm would bring something new to the game. Like something to strive for other then gear, but that's not the case. It seems Ghostcrawler doesn't want to go that way... it's too complicated for him.
I mean, this is one of the only MMO's out there, of such magnitute, that doesn't have 3d models for it's items. Everything is in inventory in bag space. Nothing has shape or form, other then the gear you equip. There is no depth. What's interesting is his response to the question, "will we be seeing player houses in cata?" And his response was so sudden and firm, "NO". It's like thats the magical thing, the one thing he doesn't want to touch. Cause he knows his game has no 3d models and no depth, but doesn't want to put in the extra work to make the game more real.
It's a static world, with nothing ever changing. Just characters, running in instances non-stop, period. And it's not changing in cata. So what's to look forward too? More loot? No thanks.
And I do agree about the talents being a dumbing down of the game once more. In fact, like others have said, they are removing instead of adding and charing people for it as an expansion. 90% of cata has nothing to do with level 80 characters. That 90% is for people who reroll new alts. Anyone who will keep their lvl 80, is getting 10% and is paying 60$ for it.
I'm just amazed at how many people are buying this BS. But history has proved time and time again, that people are gullible and shit like that, people will buy it and say thank you for it.
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Thanks for the insight. I may need therapy as someone who has been gaming since Pong and enjoys WOW.
Honestly, it's just elitism. I would challenge any of these so called "real" gamers to start wow and try to get into the top pve guild on my realm, or 2500+ arena rating. Heck, i'd challenge them to get bove 1800+, and they can pick any fotm class or comp they want.
you're fighting elitism with elitism you know :P
Barely. I'm not placing my self in some super class of players. I'm not in the top guild on my server, and I'm not one of the top rated arena teams. But if it is indeed so super easy, these real gamers should be able to come roflstomp us all. All of us grandma's and grandpa's are still trying to figure out our keybinds.
Which is also why I set the limit to 1800 rating, pretty average.
In both pve and pvp, the real task is to find non-retarted teammates. Once you find such people you've pretty much won. It does'nt matter if you are to slow to dispell in 0.2 sec or evade that fire if the rest can do it, the beauty of wow is that once you managed to get a competent team you can /brainafk and collect you stuff, there are no encounters that rely on perfect play of all players because that would mean the better ones couldnt shoulder the horrible on their way to the finish line which would make them /quit and blizz wants your money.
I'm not sure where your going with this. If you find a really good team, you can beat really bad teams? Seems obvious. What about when you go against other good players? Or when your racing to finish the latest hard mode, or w/e have you?
Im just saying that the challenge that wow offers is not the one a "gamer" would seek, wow is about getting a good team, a "gamer" would be about selfimprovement. Your Archievements don't say your'e good, they say you where with a good team.
“Talent trees are so simple and one dimensional now anyone can play these classes.” – but that’s the idea, so that anyone including your mum can play WoW. It falls in line with the corporate mentality expressed by the new CEO at EA, “We want everyone and their mum to be able to play our new games.”
Once they have dumbed down to your mum, what’s next? Well your dog does not play does he? Let’s make WoW suitable for a dog to play! Surely we can get more subs then? It is this sort of cynical, greedy mentality that curses MMO’s today. Anything is up for dumbing down if you think you can get more subs out of it.
Comments
It's a level of play that only real gamers can attain. Whoever hasn't hit 2200 is obviously not a real gamer.
I am saying that the coordinated effort to fight bosses in BC was less than it was in Vanilla. That in LK it was less than in BC. That one could make the educated guess on various changes already implemented or coming, that it will be less in Cata.
I feel that with each expansion, the higher end content should have been more exclusive. That it should not simply be about a gear check and being able to follow a walkthrough...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Ah okay. And thats just were i disagree. Hard mode icc was harder than anyhting in vanilla. Regular modes however, were laughable. Now, if you want the content to be exclusive, that's a different story. If you want to just compete on top levels of content , which are (for better or worse) arena, rated bg's, and hard modes, than you won't have a problem. But , if you were going off diffculty alone, sunwell, heroic icc, nad hardmodes ulduar are bar none the hardest encounters in game.
I was just providing numbers. The 2200 people would be the better folks. I would have to agree with going with the 1800 number instead for something like this.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Apparently, so do i, heh. I apologize if anyone has taken offense to my definition of a gamer. I can see that touched a nerve with some folks. I do however, stand by the overall point of my posts pertaining to the talent trees and the state of wow. It has become a game for people who dont normally play games. Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. Anyway, im done. I came to state my opinion on this topic and im not going to get bated into defending myself instead of the argument.
The following argument is useless:
"Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. "
No one believes that. And you can say it about almost every other game in existence. All other game populations do not contain 100% "hardcore" players as you now put it. But there is certainly a significant percentage of WoW players that are "hardcore". Just like there is a significant percentage of EVE players that are "hardcore".
What would be a significant percentage? If 30% of the playerbase battled in the 2200 bracket and completed 25 man hard mode content, id consider that significant.
Why is that percentage relevant at all, thats my question. If you, you personally are good, you won't be competing with that other percent of the player base anyway, so why does it matter, besides for the average " i'm better than you, hah" stuff?
Its relevant to the conversation you quoted because we were talking about bizzards target audience. If you want to talk about my particular enjoyment of the game, that topic has been covered in previous posts, unrelated to what you quoted.
If you're talking, pre-80, then maybe. But at 80 your spec has very little to do with gear other than removing a talent that, for example, improves your hit rating or intellect because you already have enough of it with the gear you have. Again, thats only a few talent points, the rest are still spent in talents that are pretty much mandatory. So really, nothing has changed other than preventing people from using retarded specs because they think they're being smart and clever.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Yes, i read it, and im still asking why it is relevant. You said no real gamers play based off the arguement of the average player and target audiences. However, if the average player can play at average levels, and the abover-average and above average level, that percent is irrelevant.
Edit: for clarification. I'm saying it's pointless to pit the statistics of good vs bad players when good players don't compete with the bad players. Or average players,or casual, or whatever you want to label them.
If there was two players in darkfall who just crapped all over everyone else and never died, would the fact that 2 out of 4000(?) players are the best mean everyone else sucks. Obivously im using a hyperbole for this specific case, but i thnk you understand. Anyway, thats all, and im off.
You said it clearly here. The game is actually far more competitive and harder than it's ever been.
The game is more inviting to casuals overall, but it also offers greater challenges for those that pursue them. Greater than ever before. And many, many people pursue the challenges in WoW.
Analogy is bad but... voted good change. What they did is remove the filler talents and made them inherent. Now your choices, all of them, mean something. Its also awesome that you get your spec before the cap. Now if I could get past the toons this would matter
Make me some stylised alternate models that don't have look off in some way and I'm back so fast. About the closest I can live with is human female but the jiggly butt kills it for me. Granted it better than the ape male models and their prancy run
Apparently, so do i, heh. I apologize if anyone has taken offense to my definition of a gamer. I can see that touched a nerve with some folks. I do however, stand by the overall point of my posts pertaining to the talent trees and the state of wow. It has become a game for people who dont normally play games. Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. Anyway, im done. I came to state my opinion on this topic and im not going to get bated into defending myself instead of the argument.
The following argument is useless:
"Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. "
No one believes that. And you can say it about almost every other game in existence. All other game populations do not contain 100% "hardcore" players as you now put it. But there is certainly a significant percentage of WoW players that are "hardcore". Just like there is a significant percentage of EVE players that are "hardcore".
What would be a significant percentage? If 30% of the playerbase battled in the 2200 bracket and completed 25 man hard mode content, id consider that significant.
Why is that percentage relevant at all, thats my question. If you, you personally are good, you won't be competing with that other percent of the player base anyway, so why does it matter, besides for the average " i'm better than you, hah" stuff?
Its relevant to the conversation you quoted because we were talking about bizzards target audience. If you want to talk about my particular enjoyment of the game, that topic has been covered in previous posts, unrelated to what you quoted.
Yes, i read it, and im still asking why it is relevant. You said no real gamers play based off the arguement of the average player and target audiences. However, if the average player can play at average levels, and the abover-average and above average level, that percent is irrelevant.
Ok for starters, id like to see where, in any of my posts, i coined the phrase "real gamer". Whatever anyone has read into my posts about elitism, or me being some self proclaimed hardcore gamer, well sorry but thats on you for assuming things about me and seeing what you want to see in my posts. Not sure what else to say here because i find myself having to defend my character based off of assumed information about me. Unless im reading all these posts wrong too haha
Are you kidding? The stats difference between a fresh 80 and a raiding 80 is usually double or more. There is that much gear disparity between a fresh 80 and somebody that is following some form of raid progression. EJ is full of specs to run until you reach a certain gear point. WoW is a gear game... spec reflects gear.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I really don't know when the term real gamer got thrown out, i thought it was you when you said no real gamers play wow. And saying that you and your friends are real gamers and wouldn't play wow cuz its for ppl who basically suck and dont have cooridination to play other games is very elite in it's own respect. Then again, these quotes are getting overly long, so maybe something got lost in transition.
Well i do agree that how you play depends on what your gear is, but it usually wasn't relient too much on spec. You would have to change around , as a rogue that i play for example, a talent that buffed bleeds vs a physical damage increased as your ap and arp changed. But, it was, as he said, only a few points. The biggest changed occured in how you actually played it afterwards, which this talent change does not change. And you will still have to move talents based on gear, just less raw amounts of talents will be changed, but that thoerycrafting is still there.
Also, i'd like to point how that alot of this theorycrafting didin't exist in vanilla. It was their, but it wasn't anywhere near intensive on the min-max scale. The individual mattered less in larger raids, and for the most part, was much easier to play a class. Anyone remember mages?
Anyway, i think we're beating this horse to death. And i got to go do some work and stop procastinating
, so have a good evening.
Can you imagine if we got to level 100 with the old trees? My screen probably could not scroll that deep. Too over complicated.
Great new system.
Judging from your response, I know now you have very little knowledge on this subject. Most classes don't spec based on on gear, and if they do its with the type of talents I mentioned before. Theres a few set bonuses for some of the gear (T9 T10 ect) but people rarely if ever spec specifically for them. Please give me some examples of a spec based on gear that is more than 2 or 3 points.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
A tiny part of the game is competitive. The rest of the game is easier. And you cannot see why people that may not be interested in the full time raiding job are complaining that the game they enjoyed has become easier?
As for the hard/heroic modes - it is difficult to compare those in difficulty to be honest. Without getting into the argument whether 10 or 25 man is harder; take which you think is easier... x man ICC vs. x man ICC H. Now go back to Vanilla WoW with the way the game was. Have MC, BWL, Naxx, AQ as your easier version and then make a H version of it. Would you still think that the encounters are more difficult?
Imagine a 40 man Heroic MC with some of those guys on hard-mode...with level 60 characters as they existed before the release of Burning Crusade.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I can understand people not liking the game. I understand it when people like vanilla more than the current version.
What I can't understand and what I disagree strongly with is the following sentiment:
Originally posted by Foomerang
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
I find this ridiculous.
Yes, i read it, and im still asking why it is relevant. You said no real gamers play based off the arguement of the average player and target audiences. However, if the average player can play at average levels, and the abover-average and above average level, that percent is irrelevant.
Ok for starters, id like to see where, in any of my posts, i coined the phrase "real gamer". Whatever anyone has read into my posts about elitism, or me being some self proclaimed hardcore gamer, well sorry but thats on you for assuming things about me and seeing what you want to see in my posts. Not sure what else to say here because i find myself having to defend my character based off of assumed information about me. Unless im reading all these posts wrong too haha
I really don't know when the term real gamer got thrown out, i thought it was you when you said no real gamers play wow. And saying that you and your friends are real gamers and wouldn't play wow cuz its for ppl who basically suck and dont have cooridination to play other games is very elite in it's own respect. Then again, these quotes are getting overly long, so maybe something got lost in transition.
Lol no i never wrote any of that. My friends and i consider ourselves gamers, because, well thats what weve done our whole lives. We all started wow at launch and now, im the last one to leave. I feel, as a gamer, that wow has become less involved over the years and the simplicity of the game caters more to non-gamers. Case in point i used an example of a lot of my non-gaming coworkers have discovered wow and are playing it with their kids. I even armoried their toons and their gearscores are rockin. So im done with wow, looking for a new game i can geek out on. Thats the summary of my opinion on this threads topic. Some people took that and went to work on my character (not cool) and now, im being harrassed over made up quotes, great.
Here is an example discussion for you from the Warlock's Den: http://wowmb.net/forums/f81/33033-fresh_level_80_trying_decide_build/
You will find such discussions for most classes on most WoW related forums.
edit: changed WoW related discussions to WoW related forums.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I suppose I did not read into what he said in the same way originally. I simply looked at the larger picture of what was being said, and for the most part I agree with it.
The average player in WoW has changed from Vanilla to what it is now at the end of Wrath. When WoW came out, the population was mainly made up of those that had played other MMORPGs or were players of Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo. They were gamers.
For many that come to WoW now, it is there first MMORPG. They may have had limited exposure to some of the simpler console games, Facebook apps, and the like. While they still play games, they are not gamers in the sense of those of the intitial audience.
The average content in the game reflects that change in audience.
Did I ignore the elitism and condescending tone that could be read into what was said? Perhaps, but that is only because it is impossible to deny that WoW's intended main audience has changed since inception and that the game for the average player reflects that.
While personally I find this disappointing, Blizzard is a business and they are growing that business. If they did not take this approach, they would not have the success on their hands that they do.
Did we know that this was likely in hindsight? There were those that mocked WoW from the start. So it was always there. I suppose we were comfortable with where it was though and now lament what it has become.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I just can't understand this mentality that people who have been playing mmos for years are not "gamers".
What exactly makes someone less of a gamer than others? This line of thinking reminds me of the high school music cliques where it becomes uncool to listen to some band that finds wide appeal as if more people finding their music enjoyable somehow makes them lesser music listeners. Give me a break.
I suppose the original everquest doesn't still try to target the same market, because it has drastically changes over the years?
Games evolve over time. Having a few more years experience playing a mmos doesn't make anyone a special type of gamer that all other latecomers to the market can not possibly share commonalities with, let alone be placed in the same classification. As if the DNA make up of people who play mmos changed in nov 2004 or something.
The name of the game is accessibility, and that's what Ghostcrawler is aiming for. How to get more people to play this game. Not necessarly people from other MMO's, but new people who have never touched an MMO. It's pretty obvious by now, seeing how they catter to the "newbie" people.
Now, people seem to be either hyped about the changes or displeased with them. Which is all fine, but what I don't get, is how someone who has played this game for many years can still be hyped about this game as a whole. I mean, how long can you keep chasing that carrot? How fulfilling is it to keep getting gear, for no other purpose then to the get gear, raid after raid? I mean, do you realize the gear you are getting is gonna serve no other purpose then to help you get more gear...? There's no end.
I was hoping cataclysm would bring something new to the game. Like something to strive for other then gear, but that's not the case. It seems Ghostcrawler doesn't want to go that way... it's too complicated for him.
I mean, this is one of the only MMO's out there, of such magnitute, that doesn't have 3d models for it's items. Everything is in inventory in bag space. Nothing has shape or form, other then the gear you equip. There is no depth. What's interesting is his response to the question, "will we be seeing player houses in cata?" And his response was so sudden and firm, "NO". It's like thats the magical thing, the one thing he doesn't want to touch. Cause he knows his game has no 3d models and no depth, but doesn't want to put in the extra work to make the game more real.
It's a static world, with nothing ever changing. Just characters, running in instances non-stop, period. And it's not changing in cata. So what's to look forward too? More loot? No thanks.
And I do agree about the talents being a dumbing down of the game once more. In fact, like others have said, they are removing instead of adding and charing people for it as an expansion. 90% of cata has nothing to do with level 80 characters. That 90% is for people who reroll new alts. Anyone who will keep their lvl 80, is getting 10% and is paying 60$ for it.
I'm just amazed at how many people are buying this BS. But history has proved time and time again, that people are gullible and shit like that, people will buy it and say thank you for it.
Im just saying that the challenge that wow offers is not the one a "gamer" would seek, wow is about getting a good team, a "gamer" would be about selfimprovement. Your Archievements don't say your'e good, they say you where with a good team.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
“Talent trees are so simple and one dimensional now anyone can play these classes.” – but that’s the idea, so that anyone including your mum can play WoW. It falls in line with the corporate mentality expressed by the new CEO at EA, “We want everyone and their mum to be able to play our new games.”
Once they have dumbed down to your mum, what’s next? Well your dog does not play does he? Let’s make WoW suitable for a dog to play! Surely we can get more subs then? It is this sort of cynical, greedy mentality that curses MMO’s today. Anything is up for dumbing down if you think you can get more subs out of it.