My Dish comp. took like 6 or 7 channels off my program without saying anything. I might not have noticed but they took my fav hunting show EEEOOOWWW...
I called them.
Sir those channels aren't watched that much so we removed them for your Uncluttered viewing pleasure!
Seriously, a month later.
4 more.
I call.
Sir those channels are part of a package now, would you like to purchase them?
I'm like WTFH is going on here? Purchase them? I already did !!!!!!!
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Bull.
Tons of "real gamers" play this game. Cool, you don't like it. Go play something else. But there are plenty of "real gamers" playing this game.
Believe what you will, but if the current game was what we had at launch in vanilla, none of my gaming friends wouldve touched it. Its turned in to a game that parents can play with their children. Thats fine if thats what youre into. And al the optional hard mode content is just that, optional. Im all for a mmorpg out there that caters to non gamers. Why should i deny their fun time? But yeah, iim done, and so are most of us that are looking for a more involved game experience.
It is funny how many players take offense when somebody points out how WoW has obviously changed. Some simply still enjoy the game, and you cannot fault them for that. Others are in a bad relationship, and they cannot see it for what it is. It is not up to us to hold an intervention for them...
I don't think anybody is denying that wow has changed, but the original statement and arguement is far more dramaticized than is the actual situation. I mean ya, parents do play with their children, but it's very overly sweeping to state that no "real" gamers play wow, considering when you get to the actual competitive levels of pve and pvp, ppl play wow professionally.
How many of those parents and children can actually down hare modes, or compete in top layers of arena, or let alone actually properly progress to the end of a regular raid instead of just building up gear or waiting till theycan just lawlthro it.
Oh, and to pretend that any games pve is some how hard and requires a godly amount of coordination is laughable at best. There are parents and children playing eq, or ff, or what have you, and if they took as little commitment as wow did(with the same diffculty in pve)i would bet those numbers of so called "non" gamers would be even higher.
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Bull.
Tons of "real gamers" play this game. Cool, you don't like it. Go play something else. But there are plenty of "real gamers" playing this game.
Believe what you will, but if the current game was what we had at launch in vanilla, none of my gaming friends wouldve touched it. Its turned in to a game that parents can play with their children. Thats fine if thats what youre into. And al the optional hard mode content is just that, optional. Im all for a mmorpg out there that caters to non gamers. Why should i deny their fun time? But yeah, iim done, and so are most of us that are looking for a more involved game experience.
It is funny how many players take offense when somebody points out how WoW has obviously changed. Some simply still enjoy the game, and you cannot fault them for that. Others are in a bad relationship, and they cannot see it for what it is. It is not up to us to hold an intervention for them...
It's just a game. Foom would have you believe that he is headed to some amazing game made for grown-ups. Of course he's not. He just wants to feel like he is.
I did not get that from what he said. I saw what has been evident with WoW since BC. People lamenting the change in the game. It happened again with LK. It is happening with Cata.
He stated that WoW had a more involved game experience. It no longer does. Not that he is heading off for some imaginary game. Simply stating the facts that most see...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by VirusDancer
Originally posted by Foomerang
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Foomerang Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Bull.
Tons of "real gamers" play this game. Cool, you don't like it. Go play something else. But there are plenty of "real gamers" playing this game.
Believe what you will, but if the current game was what we had at launch in vanilla, none of my gaming friends wouldve touched it. Its turned in to a game that parents can play with their children. Thats fine if thats what youre into. And al the optional hard mode content is just that, optional. Im all for a mmorpg out there that caters to non gamers. Why should i deny their fun time? But yeah, iim done, and so are most of us that are looking for a more involved game experience. It is funny how many players take offense when somebody points out how WoW has obviously changed. Some simply still enjoy the game, and you cannot fault them for that. Others are in a bad relationship, and they cannot see it for what it is. It is not up to us to hold an intervention for them... It's just a game. Foom would have you believe that he is headed to some amazing game made for grown-ups. Of course he's not. He just wants to feel like he is. not sure why you feel the need to be defensive. I never said wow sucked. I never said i didnt enjoy my years playing it. I dont think im better than anyone else just because ive outgrown a video game. Im the one on the outside scanning the forums and playing every f2p and free trial looking for another mmo that grabs me. Hell i even preordered ffxiv. If anything, im a little jealous that people still love wow. I wish i did. I invested a lot of time in that game. Take it for what you will.
It's just a game. Foom would have you believe that he is headed to some amazing game made for grown-ups. Of course he's not. He just wants to feel like he is.
not sure why you feel the need to be defensive. I never said wow sucked. I never said i didnt enjoy my years playing it. I dont think im better than anyone else just because ive outgrown a video game. Im the one on the outside scanning the forums and playing every f2p and free trial looking for another mmo that grabs me. Hell i even preordered ffxiv. If anything, im a little jealous that people still love wow. I wish i did. I invested a lot of time in that game. Take it for what you will.
Either way, you are completely incorrect when you say there are no "real gamers" playing this game. Perhaps you were never good enough to experience upper tier PvP, but it offered a real challenge. Hard modes also added a depth of challenge for experienced players and there are hundreds of thousands of "real gamers" attempting those all the time.
to the O.P. i thought that was a really great analogy
as far as the talent trees go, i woulda liked them to release more useful and good talents (thereby making talent trees a difficult choice) rather than remove most of the bad choices and leave only (well, mostly) the good choices.
it seems like the lazy way out for bliz.
but then they dont get my 15 a month anymore, CCP and SqE do.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Thanks for the insight. I may need therapy as someone who has been gaming since Pong and enjoys WOW.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Thanks for the insight. I may need therapy as someone who has been gaming since Pong and enjoys WOW.
Honestly, it's just elitism. I would challenge any of these so called "real" gamers to start wow and try to get into the top pve guild on my realm, or 2500+ arena rating. Heck, i'd challenge them to get bove 1800+, and they can pick any fotm class or comp they want.
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Thanks for the insight. I may need therapy as someone who has been gaming since Pong and enjoys WOW.
Honestly, it's just elitism. I would challenge any of these so called "real" gamers to start wow and try to get into the top pve guild on my realm, or 2500+ arena rating. Heck, i'd challenge them to get bove 1800+, and they can pick any fotm class or comp they want.
you're fighting elitism with elitism you know :P
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Thanks for the insight. I may need therapy as someone who has been gaming since Pong and enjoys WOW.
Honestly, it's just elitism. I would challenge any of these so called "real" gamers to start wow and try to get into the top pve guild on my realm, or 2500+ arena rating. Heck, i'd challenge them to get bove 1800+, and they can pick any fotm class or comp they want.
you're fighting elitism with elitism you know :P
Barely. I'm not placing my self in some super class of players. I'm not in the top guild on my server, and I'm not one of the top rated arena teams. But if it is indeed so super easy, these real gamers should be able to come roflstomp us all. All of us grandma's and grandpa's are still trying to figure out our keybinds.
Which is also why I set the limit to 1800 rating, pretty average.
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Thanks for the insight. I may need therapy as someone who has been gaming since Pong and enjoys WOW.
Honestly, it's just elitism. I would challenge any of these so called "real" gamers to start wow and try to get into the top pve guild on my realm, or 2500+ arena rating. Heck, i'd challenge them to get bove 1800+, and they can pick any fotm class or comp they want.
you're fighting elitism with elitism you know :P
Barely. I'm not placing my self in some super class of players. I'm not in the top guild on my server, and I'm not one of the top rated arena teams. But if it is indeed so super easy, these real gamers should be able to come roflstomp us all. All of us grandma's and grandpa's are still trying to figure out our keybinds.
Which is also why I set the limit to 1800 rating, pretty average.
The interesting thing about this line of argument is not addressing that WoW is easier than it was. Another interesting thing about the argument is that it has nothing to do with what he said. The "TOP" PvE and PvP in WoW is not the majority of the playerbase - which Foom pointed to correctly...the average and the casual. That is the intended target audience for the game.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Originally posted by Philby Originally posted by Foomerang Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Thanks for the insight. I may need therapy as someone who has been gaming since Pong and enjoys WOW. Apparently, so do i, heh. I apologize if anyone has taken offense to my definition of a gamer. I can see that touched a nerve with some folks. I do however, stand by the overall point of my posts pertaining to the talent trees and the state of wow. It has become a game for people who dont normally play games. Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. Anyway, im done. I came to state my opinion on this topic and im not going to get bated into defending myself instead of the argument.
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Thanks for the insight. I may need therapy as someone who has been gaming since Pong and enjoys WOW.
Honestly, it's just elitism. I would challenge any of these so called "real" gamers to start wow and try to get into the top pve guild on my realm, or 2500+ arena rating. Heck, i'd challenge them to get bove 1800+, and they can pick any fotm class or comp they want.
you're fighting elitism with elitism you know :P
Barely. I'm not placing my self in some super class of players. I'm not in the top guild on my server, and I'm not one of the top rated arena teams. But if it is indeed so super easy, these real gamers should be able to come roflstomp us all. All of us grandma's and grandpa's are still trying to figure out our keybinds.
Which is also why I set the limit to 1800 rating, pretty average.
The interesting thing about this line of argument is not addressing that WoW is easier than it was. Another interesting thing about the argument is that it has nothing to do with what he said. The "TOP" PvE and PvP in WoW is not the majority of the playerbase - which Foom pointed to correctly...the average and the casual. That is the intended target audience for the game.
Since its easier than it was (which I do not agree) I suppose you will be leaving the game?
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Apparently, so do i, heh. I apologize if anyone has taken offense to my definition of a gamer. I can see that touched a nerve with some folks. I do however, stand by the overall point of my posts pertaining to the talent trees and the state of wow. It has become a game for people who dont normally play games. Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. Anyway, im done. I came to state my opinion on this topic and im not going to get bated into defending myself instead of the argument.
The following argument is useless:
"Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. "
No one believes that. And you can say it about almost every other game in existence. All other game populations do not contain 100% "hardcore" players as you now put it. But there is certainly a significant percentage of WoW players that are "hardcore". Just like there is a significant percentage of EVE players that are "hardcore".
As for the op, i don't think it's dumbing down, because whether you want to face it or not, the talent trees were always this simple. Theorycrafting will still exist, their will still be a gap between palyers that take time to learn about class mechanics.
I mean, lets face it. Nobody was making hybrid builds, or anything. Well i dont want to say no one, but a very insignificant part of the players were. Ppl all did the same thing, get to lvl 80, go read a theorycrafting site, spec their talent points, and never think about it again. The talents never sperated good from bad players, learning how to use class mechanics did.
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Thanks for the insight. I may need therapy as someone who has been gaming since Pong and enjoys WOW.
Honestly, it's just elitism. I would challenge any of these so called "real" gamers to start wow and try to get into the top pve guild on my realm, or 2500+ arena rating. Heck, i'd challenge them to get bove 1800+, and they can pick any fotm class or comp they want.
you're fighting elitism with elitism you know :P
Barely. I'm not placing my self in some super class of players. I'm not in the top guild on my server, and I'm not one of the top rated arena teams. But if it is indeed so super easy, these real gamers should be able to come roflstomp us all. All of us grandma's and grandpa's are still trying to figure out our keybinds.
Which is also why I set the limit to 1800 rating, pretty average.
The interesting thing about this line of argument is not addressing that WoW is easier than it was. Another interesting thing about the argument is that it has nothing to do with what he said. The "TOP" PvE and PvP in WoW is not the majority of the playerbase - which Foom pointed to correctly...the average and the casual. That is the intended target audience for the game.
Since its easier than it was (which I do not agree) I suppose you will be leaving the game?
I left the game in June. I had planned to return for Cata. It appeared interesting. Then more info was released about how it was not going to be as interesting. Then more info was released. With the changes to the talent trees as well, I am unlikely to return.
I am curious as to why you do not think that it has become easier with each expansion and major patch. While it was never beads of sweat and picking up a drinking problem hard (almost no game is), there was still a sense that you were possibly accomplishing something in a virtual world...the meaning of that will vary to different players.
If the game had actually become more difficult with each expansion, that would have limited access to the masses - and - the masses are what pay the bills: not the few hardcore players.
In making more and more content accessible, it has had the chain effect of making everything before that easier.
I remember getting my first 60 back in Vanilla. In a nerdy sort of way, it felt like an accomplishment. I remember the hype about 60-70 taking as long as 1-60 did. They meant to say 60-70 would take as long as 1-60 would. Because 1-60 now took no time and neither did 60-70. It was a meh moment that led to several 1-70 characters being added. Then the same hype for 70-80. Figured there was no way they would BS that again. Lol, I was wrong. 80 was another meh. Adding another 1-80 was a meh..got another to 50ish and said no way. There was no point.
It was at this point when it became obvious that WoW is a game lobby game, built upon their strenght with game lobbies in Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo... at the same time, the game has continued to cater more and more to the masses...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by Foomerang
Apparently, so do i, heh. I apologize if anyone has taken offense to my definition of a gamer. I can see that touched a nerve with some folks. I do however, stand by the overall point of my posts pertaining to the talent trees and the state of wow. It has become a game for people who dont normally play games. Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. Anyway, im done. I came to state my opinion on this topic and im not going to get bated into defending myself instead of the argument.
The following argument is useless:
"Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. "
No one believes that. And you can say it about almost every other game in existence. All other game populations do not contain 100% "hardcore" players as you now put it. But there is certainly a significant percentage of WoW players that are "hardcore". Just like there is a significant percentage of EVE players that are "hardcore". What would be a significant percentage? If 30% of the playerbase battled in the 2200 bracket and completed 25 man hard mode content, id consider that significant.
But that's just the point. Wow caters to BOTH audiences. It targets the majority with easier heroics, or regular modes, but people can play competitive. It is easier at the bottom end, but harder at the higher end. So how much easier is that really?
If your trully a "real" gamer, your going to be competing with players that are very good. But, if the fact that you can't completely segregate the average player into doing nothing bothers you, than elitism is obvious.
Edit: And, i'm not refering to you specifically, just towards the line of thought your addressing.
Because the average player wants access to the content, the game company cannot keep it exclusive.
I give props to those groups that are the first to go through any instance. Those that go in there without having had the opportunity to read a walkthrough that tells them everything they need to do - those that go in there without addons that flash warnings because the scripted encounters are something you could set your watch by...
...those that come after that...well...I remember when my stepson first tied his shoes. I give him more credit for having done that.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Thanks for the insight. I may need therapy as someone who has been gaming since Pong and enjoys WOW.
Honestly, it's just elitism. I would challenge any of these so called "real" gamers to start wow and try to get into the top pve guild on my realm, or 2500+ arena rating. Heck, i'd challenge them to get bove 1800+, and they can pick any fotm class or comp they want.
you're fighting elitism with elitism you know :P
Barely. I'm not placing my self in some super class of players. I'm not in the top guild on my server, and I'm not one of the top rated arena teams. But if it is indeed so super easy, these real gamers should be able to come roflstomp us all. All of us grandma's and grandpa's are still trying to figure out our keybinds.
Which is also why I set the limit to 1800 rating, pretty average.
In both pve and pvp, the real task is to find non-retarted teammates. Once you find such people you've pretty much won. It does'nt matter if you are to slow to dispell in 0.2 sec or evade that fire if the rest can do it, the beauty of wow is that once you managed to get a competent team you can /brainafk and collect you stuff, there are no encounters that rely on perfect play of all players because that would mean the better ones couldnt shoulder the horrible on their way to the finish line which would make them /quit and blizz wants your money.
Apparently, so do i, heh. I apologize if anyone has taken offense to my definition of a gamer. I can see that touched a nerve with some folks. I do however, stand by the overall point of my posts pertaining to the talent trees and the state of wow. It has become a game for people who dont normally play games. Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. Anyway, im done. I came to state my opinion on this topic and im not going to get bated into defending myself instead of the argument.
The following argument is useless:
"Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. "
No one believes that. And you can say it about almost every other game in existence. All other game populations do not contain 100% "hardcore" players as you now put it. But there is certainly a significant percentage of WoW players that are "hardcore". Just like there is a significant percentage of EVE players that are "hardcore".
What would be a significant percentage? If 30% of the playerbase battled in the 2200 bracket and completed 25 man hard mode content, id consider that significant.
Why is that percentage relevant at all, thats my question. If you, you personally are good, you won't be competing with that other percent of the player base anyway, so why does it matter, besides for the average " i'm better than you, hah" stuff?
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Thanks for the insight. I may need therapy as someone who has been gaming since Pong and enjoys WOW.
Honestly, it's just elitism. I would challenge any of these so called "real" gamers to start wow and try to get into the top pve guild on my realm, or 2500+ arena rating. Heck, i'd challenge them to get bove 1800+, and they can pick any fotm class or comp they want.
you're fighting elitism with elitism you know :P
Barely. I'm not placing my self in some super class of players. I'm not in the top guild on my server, and I'm not one of the top rated arena teams. But if it is indeed so super easy, these real gamers should be able to come roflstomp us all. All of us grandma's and grandpa's are still trying to figure out our keybinds.
Which is also why I set the limit to 1800 rating, pretty average.
In both pve and pvp, the real task is to find non-retarted teammates. Once you find such people you've pretty much won. It does'nt matter if you are to slow to dispell in 0.2 sec or evade that fire if the rest can do it, the beauty of wow is that once you managed to get a competent team you can /brainafk and collect you stuff, there are no encounters that rely on perfect play of all players because that would mean the better ones couldnt shoulder the horrible on their way to the finish line which would make them /quit and blizz wants your money.
I'm not sure where your going with this. If you find a really good team, you can beat really bad teams? Seems obvious. What about when you go against other good players? Or when your racing to finish the latest hard mode, or w/e have you?
Anyone that doesn't acknowledge that there was very little choice in builds before, esp. when it came to raiding and "serious" pvp, has no clue what they're talking about. Trying being in a raid guild or arena team without having the "optimal" spec for your class. You'll be told to spec a certain way or gtfo. There was some wiggle room for a talent point or two here and there but it was mostly cookie cutter builds.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
What would be a significant percentage? If 30% of the playerbase battled in the 2200 bracket and completed 25 man hard mode content, id consider that significant.
There are between 9,900-10,000 teams above 2200 according to S-K. Team sizes varying between 2-5 and with players being on multiple teams... that is not many players.
Those are worldwide numbers, by the way - so that would be out of the over 12 million players.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
But that's just the point. Wow caters to BOTH audiences. It targets the majority with easier heroics, or regular modes, but people can play competitive. It is easier at the bottom end, but harder at the higher end. So how much easier is that really?
If your trully a "real" gamer, your going to be competing with players that are very good. But, if the fact that you can't completely segregate the average player into doing nothing bothers you, than elitism is obvious.
Edit: And, i'm not refering to you specifically, just towards the line of thought your addressing.
Because the average player wants access to the content, the game company cannot keep it exclusive.
I give props to those groups that are the first to go through any instance. Those that go in there without having had the opportunity to read a walkthrough that tells them everything they need to do - those that go in there without addons that flash warnings because the scripted encounters are something you could set your watch by...
...those that come after that...well...I remember when my stepson first tied his shoes. I give him more credit for having done that.
We're agreeing on something, but I'm not connecting the dots. The game is not exclusive, which is why the average content is meant for average people. But the hard content is made for people that dedicate more time and commitment to form coordinated efforts. I'm saying this is a good thing, are you saying it's bad?
Anyone that doesn't acknowledge that there was very little choice in builds before, esp. when it came to raiding and "serious" pvp, has no clue what they're talking about. Trying being in a raid guild or arena team without having the "optimal" spec for your class. You'll be told to spec a certain way or gtfo. There was some wiggle room for a talent point or two here and there but it was mostly cookie cutter builds.
WoW is a gear game. The spec goes to the gear. If you do not have certain gear, certain specs are better until you have that gear. That includes both serious PvP and Raiding.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Comments
How funny is this?
My Dish comp. took like 6 or 7 channels off my program without saying anything. I might not have noticed but they took my fav hunting show EEEOOOWWW...
I called them.
Sir those channels aren't watched that much so we removed them for your Uncluttered viewing pleasure!
Seriously, a month later.
4 more.
I call.
Sir those channels are part of a package now, would you like to purchase them?
I'm like WTFH is going on here? Purchase them? I already did !!!!!!!
Does this sound familiar?
1001 Laws, only one matters.
I don't think anybody is denying that wow has changed, but the original statement and arguement is far more dramaticized than is the actual situation. I mean ya, parents do play with their children, but it's very overly sweeping to state that no "real" gamers play wow, considering when you get to the actual competitive levels of pve and pvp, ppl play wow professionally.
How many of those parents and children can actually down hare modes, or compete in top layers of arena, or let alone actually properly progress to the end of a regular raid instead of just building up gear or waiting till theycan just lawlthro it.
Oh, and to pretend that any games pve is some how hard and requires a godly amount of coordination is laughable at best. There are parents and children playing eq, or ff, or what have you, and if they took as little commitment as wow did(with the same diffculty in pve)i would bet those numbers of so called "non" gamers would be even higher.
The elitism is palpable.
I did not get that from what he said. I saw what has been evident with WoW since BC. People lamenting the change in the game. It happened again with LK. It is happening with Cata.
He stated that WoW had a more involved game experience. It no longer does. Not that he is heading off for some imaginary game. Simply stating the facts that most see...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Bull.
Tons of "real gamers" play this game. Cool, you don't like it. Go play something else. But there are plenty of "real gamers" playing this game.
Believe what you will, but if the current game was what we had at launch in vanilla, none of my gaming friends wouldve touched it. Its turned in to a game that parents can play with their children. Thats fine if thats what youre into. And al the optional hard mode content is just that, optional. Im all for a mmorpg out there that caters to non gamers. Why should i deny their fun time? But yeah, iim done, and so are most of us that are looking for a more involved game experience.
It is funny how many players take offense when somebody points out how WoW has obviously changed. Some simply still enjoy the game, and you cannot fault them for that. Others are in a bad relationship, and they cannot see it for what it is. It is not up to us to hold an intervention for them...
It's just a game. Foom would have you believe that he is headed to some amazing game made for grown-ups. Of course he's not. He just wants to feel like he is.
not sure why you feel the need to be defensive. I never said wow sucked. I never said i didnt enjoy my years playing it. I dont think im better than anyone else just because ive outgrown a video game. Im the one on the outside scanning the forums and playing every f2p and free trial looking for another mmo that grabs me. Hell i even preordered ffxiv. If anything, im a little jealous that people still love wow. I wish i did. I invested a lot of time in that game. Take it for what you will.
Either way, you are completely incorrect when you say there are no "real gamers" playing this game. Perhaps you were never good enough to experience upper tier PvP, but it offered a real challenge. Hard modes also added a depth of challenge for experienced players and there are hundreds of thousands of "real gamers" attempting those all the time.
to the O.P. i thought that was a really great analogy
as far as the talent trees go, i woulda liked them to release more useful and good talents (thereby making talent trees a difficult choice) rather than remove most of the bad choices and leave only (well, mostly) the good choices.
it seems like the lazy way out for bliz.
but then they dont get my 15 a month anymore, CCP and SqE do.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Thanks for the insight. I may need therapy as someone who has been gaming since Pong and enjoys WOW.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Honestly, it's just elitism. I would challenge any of these so called "real" gamers to start wow and try to get into the top pve guild on my realm, or 2500+ arena rating. Heck, i'd challenge them to get bove 1800+, and they can pick any fotm class or comp they want.
you're fighting elitism with elitism you know :P
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
Barely. I'm not placing my self in some super class of players. I'm not in the top guild on my server, and I'm not one of the top rated arena teams. But if it is indeed so super easy, these real gamers should be able to come roflstomp us all. All of us grandma's and grandpa's are still trying to figure out our keybinds.
Which is also why I set the limit to 1800 rating, pretty average.
The interesting thing about this line of argument is not addressing that WoW is easier than it was. Another interesting thing about the argument is that it has nothing to do with what he said. The "TOP" PvE and PvP in WoW is not the majority of the playerbase - which Foom pointed to correctly...the average and the casual. That is the intended target audience for the game.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Apparently, so do i, heh. I apologize if anyone has taken offense to my definition of a gamer. I can see that touched a nerve with some folks. I do however, stand by the overall point of my posts pertaining to the talent trees and the state of wow. It has become a game for people who dont normally play games. Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. Anyway, im done. I came to state my opinion on this topic and im not going to get bated into defending myself instead of the argument.
Since its easier than it was (which I do not agree) I suppose you will be leaving the game?
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
The following argument is useless:
"Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. "
No one believes that. And you can say it about almost every other game in existence. All other game populations do not contain 100% "hardcore" players as you now put it. But there is certainly a significant percentage of WoW players that are "hardcore". Just like there is a significant percentage of EVE players that are "hardcore".
As for the op, i don't think it's dumbing down, because whether you want to face it or not, the talent trees were always this simple. Theorycrafting will still exist, their will still be a gap between palyers that take time to learn about class mechanics.
I mean, lets face it. Nobody was making hybrid builds, or anything. Well i dont want to say no one, but a very insignificant part of the players were. Ppl all did the same thing, get to lvl 80, go read a theorycrafting site, spec their talent points, and never think about it again. The talents never sperated good from bad players, learning how to use class mechanics did.
I left the game in June. I had planned to return for Cata. It appeared interesting. Then more info was released about how it was not going to be as interesting. Then more info was released. With the changes to the talent trees as well, I am unlikely to return.
I am curious as to why you do not think that it has become easier with each expansion and major patch. While it was never beads of sweat and picking up a drinking problem hard (almost no game is), there was still a sense that you were possibly accomplishing something in a virtual world...the meaning of that will vary to different players.
If the game had actually become more difficult with each expansion, that would have limited access to the masses - and - the masses are what pay the bills: not the few hardcore players.
In making more and more content accessible, it has had the chain effect of making everything before that easier.
I remember getting my first 60 back in Vanilla. In a nerdy sort of way, it felt like an accomplishment. I remember the hype about 60-70 taking as long as 1-60 did. They meant to say 60-70 would take as long as 1-60 would. Because 1-60 now took no time and neither did 60-70. It was a meh moment that led to several 1-70 characters being added. Then the same hype for 70-80. Figured there was no way they would BS that again. Lol, I was wrong. 80 was another meh. Adding another 1-80 was a meh..got another to 50ish and said no way. There was no point.
It was at this point when it became obvious that WoW is a game lobby game, built upon their strenght with game lobbies in Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo... at the same time, the game has continued to cater more and more to the masses...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Apparently, so do i, heh. I apologize if anyone has taken offense to my definition of a gamer. I can see that touched a nerve with some folks. I do however, stand by the overall point of my posts pertaining to the talent trees and the state of wow. It has become a game for people who dont normally play games. Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. Anyway, im done. I came to state my opinion on this topic and im not going to get bated into defending myself instead of the argument.
The following argument is useless:
"Unless of course you truly believe 12 million hardcore gamers popped out of the woodwork of a small sub genre and converged on wow almost simultaneously. "
No one believes that. And you can say it about almost every other game in existence. All other game populations do not contain 100% "hardcore" players as you now put it. But there is certainly a significant percentage of WoW players that are "hardcore". Just like there is a significant percentage of EVE players that are "hardcore".
What would be a significant percentage? If 30% of the playerbase battled in the 2200 bracket and completed 25 man hard mode content, id consider that significant.
Because the average player wants access to the content, the game company cannot keep it exclusive.
I give props to those groups that are the first to go through any instance. Those that go in there without having had the opportunity to read a walkthrough that tells them everything they need to do - those that go in there without addons that flash warnings because the scripted encounters are something you could set your watch by...
...those that come after that...well...I remember when my stepson first tied his shoes. I give him more credit for having done that.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
In both pve and pvp, the real task is to find non-retarted teammates. Once you find such people you've pretty much won. It does'nt matter if you are to slow to dispell in 0.2 sec or evade that fire if the rest can do it, the beauty of wow is that once you managed to get a competent team you can /brainafk and collect you stuff, there are no encounters that rely on perfect play of all players because that would mean the better ones couldnt shoulder the horrible on their way to the finish line which would make them /quit and blizz wants your money.
Pi*1337/100 = 42
Why is that percentage relevant at all, thats my question. If you, you personally are good, you won't be competing with that other percent of the player base anyway, so why does it matter, besides for the average " i'm better than you, hah" stuff?
I'm not sure where your going with this. If you find a really good team, you can beat really bad teams? Seems obvious. What about when you go against other good players? Or when your racing to finish the latest hard mode, or w/e have you?
Anyone that doesn't acknowledge that there was very little choice in builds before, esp. when it came to raiding and "serious" pvp, has no clue what they're talking about. Trying being in a raid guild or arena team without having the "optimal" spec for your class. You'll be told to spec a certain way or gtfo. There was some wiggle room for a talent point or two here and there but it was mostly cookie cutter builds.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
There are between 9,900-10,000 teams above 2200 according to S-K. Team sizes varying between 2-5 and with players being on multiple teams... that is not many players.
Those are worldwide numbers, by the way - so that would be out of the over 12 million players.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
We're agreeing on something, but I'm not connecting the dots. The game is not exclusive, which is why the average content is meant for average people. But the hard content is made for people that dedicate more time and commitment to form coordinated efforts. I'm saying this is a good thing, are you saying it's bad?
WoW is a gear game. The spec goes to the gear. If you do not have certain gear, certain specs are better until you have that gear. That includes both serious PvP and Raiding.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%