I swear you people don't even think about the chet spewing from your mouth before you open it. If streamlining talent trees to make lower level players feel more like the specialization they are hoping for and giving more clear cut lines for players who serve two roles with dual specs is dumbing down a mmo. What would you call a skill base system that automatically builds to the max level, that requires very little thought from the player to determine it's growth. Hit something, gain a skill point....yeah really deep thinking there.....
QFT!
Exactly... WoW is for lower level players. With each passing year... WoW is more for lower level players. Nicely put.
The characters might gain in level... but the players get lower and lower.
That was about the most blatantly trollish comment I've read in a while. It doesn't advance the conversation or add anything in anyway. It's sole purpose is to insult the people that enjoy playing WoW while making the poster feel superior. Sad that some gamers feel the need to resort to this kind of stereotyping of an entire playerbase just because they don't like a game.
What Ramonski said? I know that he offered a pretty trollish attack there on those that are not part of WoW's playerbase just because they may have issues with the game, but I thought some humor and twist about on it may stop him from posting such things in the future.
As for not furthering the conversation? Excuse me?
With each expansion, Blizzard has added levels for the character while making the game easier for the player. Before Ramonski made his attack on other players, even he admitted this fact. Blizzard is making the game easier - dumbing it down further.
That is the very subject of the thread...
edit: Wait, I just reread what you said - you were calling what I said trollish? Are you kidding me? I was addressing the garbage Ramonski said with his attack while furthering the discussion in regard to the fact that WoW continues to dumb down the game for the player while adding levels for the character.
If you're gonna attempt to troll me, you're gonna have to do better than that. If you're going to quote me, quote me in the entirety of my post. Like I said before. People making comments about how Blizzard is dumbing down this and e-z moding that, really tend to give off vibes that they have no clue what they are talking about. Yet alone admit playing the game. You say they're taking away choices of what players can do and I (along with many others) have attempted to clear this up by saying why make a pawn feel like a king? Each piece has a role and each role is being more well defined and the best part is that you still get to choose TWO roles (a la dual spec).
What even more funny is I admit that I don't currently play anymore, but I do research things to the best of my ability before I talk about them. Like how what I've said up to this point seems to be echoed by the devs themselves:
"When we first announced our design goals for class talent trees back at BlizzCon 2009, one of our major stated focuses was to remove some of the boring and "mandatory" passive talents. We mentioned that we wanted talent choices to feel more flavorful and fun, yet more meaningful at the same time. Recently, we had our fansites release information on work-in-progress talent tree previews for druids, priests, shaman, and rogues. From those previews and via alpha test feedback, a primary response we heard was that these trees didn’t incorporate the original design goals discussed at BlizzCon. This response echoes something we have been feeling internally for some time, namely that the talent tree system has not aged well since we first increased the level cap beyond level 60. In an upcoming beta build, we will unveil bold overhauls of all 30 talent trees."
Again I may display a little bite from time to time, but I never lose my head long enough to not include something that also adds to the discussion at hand...sort of like you. And I respect that, even if it's hard to see sometimes.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Originally posted by Obzerver Anyone who played this game in the last 3-4 years will know that there was only ever one viable spec in each tree for PvP and PvE. Come patch day and everyone would run to elitestjerks.com and get their new spec. So coming in here claiming that all of a sudden your "freedom of choice" is gone shows just how clueless you were as a player. So you want the choice to be a bad player and they took that away from you? poor you.
If they are really dumbing down the game, its so that people like you don't go cook up some stupid hybrid 50/50 tank/healer spec, get into to groups, wipe them and then blame others because you know your super awesome hybrid spec could not have gone wrong.
There are still people in this game who put one point in all three trees and progress horizontally while leveling. While this would be awesome if it were a single player game, so that your stupid decisions wouldn't affect others game-play. Constantly dieing to the first trash pack of a 5 man dungeon because your tank decided to spread his love in all the three talent trees and not specialize, really isn't fun(trust me i've been there, 60 odd "feral" druid with equal points in resto and balance)
thats funny you bring up ej since the reason that site exists is because there were so many different, evolving, and viable builds for multiple situations for every class. that site is there for discussing and testing different builds. but of course, players such as _______ go there and blindly choose one spec and proclaim everything else invalid.
anyone who has played this game as long as you said should know in fact there were tons of viable builds for each class for both pve and pvp. your point about a feral druid putting points in resto and balance has nothing to do with poor talent tree design and everything to do with the fact some players just dont know wth theyre doing.
so yeah, go ahead and tell yourself that the game got better because its dumbed down even more. its not gonna fix an ignorant player no matter how simple you make it. you could have a class called "tank" and it had no talents and one button that you could faceroll and be able to tank every raid on hardmode and i guarantee you therell be some mouth breather that cries on the forums about it being too hard because they keep walking into walls.
Anyone who played this game in the last 3-4 years will know that there was only ever one viable spec in each tree for PvP and PvE. Come patch day and everyone would run to elitestjerks.com and get their new spec. So coming in here claiming that all of a sudden your "freedom of choice" is gone shows just how clueless you were as a player. So you want the choice to be a bad player and they took that away from you? poor you.
If they are really dumbing down the game, its so that people like you don't go cook up some stupid hybrid 50/50 tank/healer spec, get into to groups, wipe them and then blame others because you know your super awesome hybrid spec could not have gone wrong.
There are still people in this game who put one point in all three trees and progress horizontally while leveling. While this would be awesome if it were a single player game, so that your stupid decisions wouldn't affect others game-play. Constantly dieing to the first trash pack of a 5 man dungeon because your tank decided to spread his love in all the three talent trees and not specialize, really isn't fun(trust me i've been there, 60 odd "feral" druid with equal points in resto and balance)
thats funny you bring up ej since the reason that site exists is because there were so many different, evolving, and viable builds for multiple situations for every class. that site is there for discussing and testing different builds. but of course, players such as _______ go there and blindly choose one spec and proclaim everything else invalid.
anyone who has played this game as long as you said should know in fact there were tons of viable builds for each class for both pve and pvp.
your point about a feral druid putting points in resto and balance has nothing to do with poor talent tree design and everything to do with the fact some players just dont know wth theyre doing.
so yeah, go ahead and tell yourself that the game got better because its dumbed down even more. its not gonna fix an ignorant player no matter how simple you make it. you could have a class called "tank" and it had no talents and one button that you could faceroll and be able to tank every raid on hardmode and i guarantee you therell be some mouth breather that cries on the forums about it being too hard because they keep walking into walls.
Again I may display a little bite from time to time, but I never lose my head long enough to not include something that also adds to the discussion at hand...sort of like you. And I respect that, even if it's hard to see sometimes.
Have to admit that I did not read your entire post. Only the part that had been quoted, and thus I replied to the quoted part. It was rather naive of me to do so, because it could lead to commenting on a bogus quote as opposed to what was actually said.
In general, I have found you to be very negative toward other games in reading your posts in other threads as I have come across them. So in reading the quoted part, it fit the bill and I went with that...not thinking about the fact that even as you are negative about other games and their players - your posts are usually more in depth and not as simple as just the quoted part.
Should have known better.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
thats funny you bring up ej since the reason that site exists is because there were so many different, evolving, and viable builds for multiple situations for every class. that site is there for discussing and testing different builds. but of course, players such as _______ go there and blindly choose one spec and proclaim everything else invalid.
anyone who has played this game as long as you said should know in fact there were tons of viable builds for each class for both pve and pvp.
your point about a feral druid putting points in resto and balance has nothing to do with poor talent tree design and everything to do with the fact some players just dont know wth theyre doing.
so yeah, go ahead and tell yourself that the game got better because its dumbed down even more. its not gonna fix an ignorant player no matter how simple you make it. you could have a class called "tank" and it had no talents and one button that you could faceroll and be able to tank every raid on hardmode and i guarantee you therell be some mouth breather that cries on the forums about it being too hard because they keep walking into walls.
There are just as many if not more options on EJ now than there were prior to the patch. But given a specific role such as single target dps there can really only be one spec that outshines others (and you are talking out of your ass if you think otherwise) as there will be spreadsheets, raid parses and BiS lists to back it up. Also keep in mind i said one spec for each tree and not each class.
And if by your logic the game has been dumbed down then sites like EJ should have gone under the minute 4.0.1 went live but guess what, they are still around discussing specs. If anything you actually have more options like Frost Dks can now choose between two hand and dual wield, and Frost Mages finally becoming pve viable and having a PvE rotation.
I've been a member of EJ long before it was the gold standard of PvE theorycraft so please don't bullshit me. They never had 3-4 viable specs in one tree for a specific roll. Yes they discussed many and the specs did evolve (just like they are now) but after 3-4 weeks into a patch that either added content or changed skills, one spec was chosen that out did the others, which would be edited on the 1st post and copied by the general player base.
Do i like it? no. And most of those people wouldn't bother to read the rotations or check BiS lists, and more often than not, they didn't have the gear to go with the spec. But thats not my point. If you think the game has been dumbed down, then please tell me why the best theorycrafters haven't quit like most of you super intelligent beings who are clearly too smart for this game.
Cataclysm is a kind of reset of things: Reset of Azeroth, relaunch of classes.
With this in mind, it is logical and "common sense" to straigthen up the game and classes.
They keep the changes that were launchd in the past 6 years (dual specs, competitive PvP, small RvR zone, scaled PvE Raids) and simply redid the basic structure.
This reset allows them to begin fresh with another 3-4 years of at least 2 more expansions.
That's what you see in the landscape, that's what you get in the class trees and with the added experience of the past years.
Ask yourself this, which MMO has changed anything to give you a system which makes you have more choices? Of hand I can only think of some extra sets of armour and weapons in some of the MMO’s I have played.
Every MMO, not just WoW is being dumbed down, its always less choice not more, always more things decided for you.
We had dumbing down for the console generation and now we have moved on to dumbing down for the social network generation. MMO’s want as many players as possible, that means you make the MMO for the dumbest person in the world. Otherwise you might put of the people with the IQ of a five year old.
There are really bad arguments being made why this is good. No more hybrids because of Dual speccing. Well that is not the same thing is it. I used Dual Speccing but had Dual Hybrid builds. Poor choice of words. Hybridizing encouraged thought in your build. Hybrids meant there was flexibilty withing your class. Sometimes making things too simple is a bad thing and I find these talent trees insulting to my intelligence. A few of you have even said learn to play your class again and dont QQ, but you don't get it either. Talent trees are so simple and one deminsional now anyone can play these classes.
Instead of getting rid of supposedly bad talents to make the talent trees shorter and reduce your choices to nothing. They should have replaced them with something useful and increased flexibility not reduce choices.
I mean what you're really saying is that you don't want to think about it and you want a prefab. Well thats fine for you but I dont want a prefab. I think also the arguments for this are on thin ice frankly. I dont like classes being made into point and click, select a spec Street fighter style gameplay.
There are really bad arguments being made why this is good. No more hybrids because of Dual speccing. Well that is not the same thing is it. I used Dual Speccing but had Dual Hybrid builds. Poor choice of words. Hybridizing encouraged thought in your build. Hybrids meant there was flexibilty withing your class. Sometimes making things too simple is a bad thing and I find these talent trees insulting to my intelligence. A few of you have even said learn to play your class again and dont QQ, but you don't get it either. Talent trees are so simple and one deminsional now anyone can play these classes.
Instead of getting rid of supposedly bad talents to make the talent trees shorter and reduce your choices to nothing. They should have replaced them with something useful and increased flexibility not reduce choices.
I mean what you're really saying is that you don't want to think about it and you want a prefab. Well thats fine for you but I dont want a prefab. I think also the arguments for this are on thin ice frankly. I dont like classes being made into point and click, select a spec Street fighter style gameplay.
I think your argument is on thin ice.
One main reason is that , as a percentage, you are actually putting a similar amount of points into both trees.
31/10
51/20
They are not exactly the same, but the ratios might as well be considered similar. In the new trees, those 10 points give you the same amount of importance level the old trees gave you in 20 points. They just condensed the trees in order to get rid of useless talents that are now included as part of a main build.
One main reason is that , as a percentage, you are actually putting a similar amount of points into both trees.
31/10
51/20
They are not exactly the same, but the ratios might as well be considered similar. In the new trees, those 10 points give you the same amount of importance level the old trees gave you in 20 points. They just condensed the trees in order to get rid of useless talents that are now included as part of a main build.
I beg to differ but reaching into another tree to barely get a tier one talent is far different than grabbing a tier 3 talent or even dong a 60-40% split. In some cases nearly Tri Spec. Some things that were very useful are simply trashed now. Case in point is this, when CAT does come out many players will be looking to just break even with what they could do in WOTLK and in some cases even BC due to inflexibility.
Five to ten points in Cat as compared to BC or WOTLK is largely the same talents at tier one minus some modifications. However with streamlined or dumbed down trees you now on average will have 3 to 5 points left to spend on tier one talents.
Pro: - in the end there is only one optimal way how to place your talent points, as such any choice is illusional anyway - even now, but mostly on patch day, people kept shouting "who knows how to set the talent points" "an experienced -enter class name- help me please" and so on, so for some people the trees are still too confusing - some interesting new talents among them and many annoying ones gone - the mastery system aint bad to give the trees more individuality - WoW was never a game about complexity
Contra: - overall number of talents to invest points into is too small, giving you nearly no chance for exploring builds - you are forced to pick nearly all points in a tree, can't decided to leave any out - still lots of boring talents there even though blizzard wanted to get rid of them
One main reason is that , as a percentage, you are actually putting a similar amount of points into both trees.
31/10
51/20
They are not exactly the same, but the ratios might as well be considered similar. In the new trees, those 10 points give you the same amount of importance level the old trees gave you in 20 points. They just condensed the trees in order to get rid of useless talents that are now included as part of a main build.
I beg to differ but reaching into another tree to barely get a tier one talent is far different than grabbing a tier 3 talent or even dong a 60-40% split. In some cases nearly Tri Spec. Some things that were very useful are simply trashed now. Case in point is this, when CAT does come out many players will be looking to just break even with what they could do in WOTLK and in some cases even BC due to inflexibility.
Five to ten points in Cat as compared to BC or WOTLK is largely the same talents at tier one minus some modifications. However with streamlined or dumbed down trees you now on average will have 3 to 5 points left to spend on tier one talents.
How is that not a talent Tax?
Tier 2 is now the equivalent of tier 4.
And if you spend 31 points in one tree, you have 10 points left. Not 3-5.
And if you spend 31 points in one tree, you have 10 points left. Not 3-5.
So you think taking careful Aim and steady shot with an extra 10 points as a hunter compares to a WOTLK hunter hybrid with 15 to 20ish points to spare? You have got to be joking. Tier 2 is still tier two and some talents are still not worth it at the end of the tree.
I went with improvement. You have to think outside of this being just for max level characters. They way the tree's are set up now really helps with vets leveling new classes and also new players who would otherwise be completely lost at what to choose. Also the talent points every other level makes it more enjoyable in my oppinion and makes you really feel like you're playing as your spec as soon as you point your first talent.
And if you spend 31 points in one tree, you have 10 points left. Not 3-5.
So you think taking careful Aim and steady shot with an extra 10 points as a hunter compares to a WOTLK hunter hybrid with 15 to 20ish points to spare? You have got to be joking. Tier 2 is still tier two and some talents are still not worth it at the end of the tree.
I think that hunters are not the only class. I've heard a lot of disappointment from hunters. Hopefully they address some of the issues they are having as Cataclysm is released.
There were 11 tiers before. Now there are 7. Tier 4 and below has been reduced to tier 2 and below.
There was always a cookie cutter mentality with the trees anyway, if you didn't spec right you would be an out cast.
now that the trees have become more streamlined, its really obvious where things should go and in theory prevent this.
In the future It wouldn't suprise me at all if the game mechanics would still work even without talent trees,
Sign up for a dungeon>Select Role>Your stats are now attuned accordingly for this role.
Personally i dont like this type of mechanic..but it seems to be where its heading.
You say streamlined I say special needs. As far as I am concerned your future prediction is already here. Really we already have dual speccing and now the spec options are so simple and one deminsional that most players playing the same spec will have the same tree. Thats just not very sporting to me. Its actually quite dull.
Talents are no brainer. However, we can't assume each player has the same IQ level. I don't see it as a dumbing down. I think Blizzard is simplifying things. Besides, what the raiders are looking for is epic raid gear. Blizzard can redo the talents and in a matter of days you will find the "best" build everywhere on the Internet. For those that PvP, well, the talent tree will be there, soon will find out what's going to be the "best" PVP flavor of the month. So rejoice.
Talents are no brainer. However, we can't assume each player has the same IQ level. I don't see it as a dumbing down. I think Blizzard is simplifying things. Besides, what the raiders are looking for is epic raid gear. Blizzard can redo the talents and in a matter of days you will find the "best" build everywhere on the Internet. For those that PvP, well, the talent tree will be there, soon will find out what's going to be the "best" PVP flavor of the month. So rejoice.
You basically have Quest/Raid/PvP. You have leveling - solo and group. You have end game. You have farming.
You used to have choice...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Bull.
Tons of "real gamers" play this game. Cool, you don't like it. Go play something else. But there are plenty of "real gamers" playing this game.
Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by Foomerang Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Bull.
Tons of "real gamers" play this game. Cool, you don't like it. Go play something else. But there are plenty of "real gamers" playing this game. Believe what you will, but if the current game was what we had at launch in vanilla, none of my gaming friends wouldve touched it. Its turned in to a game that parents can play with their children. Thats fine if thats what youre into. And al the optional hard mode content is just that, optional. Im all for a mmorpg out there that caters to non gamers. Why should i deny their fun time? But yeah, iim done, and so are most of us that are looking for a more involved game experience.
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Bull.
Tons of "real gamers" play this game. Cool, you don't like it. Go play something else. But there are plenty of "real gamers" playing this game.
Believe what you will, but if the current game was what we had at launch in vanilla, none of my gaming friends wouldve touched it. Its turned in to a game that parents can play with their children. Thats fine if thats what youre into. And al the optional hard mode content is just that, optional. Im all for a mmorpg out there that caters to non gamers. Why should i deny their fun time? But yeah, iim done, and so are most of us that are looking for a more involved game experience.
It is funny how many players take offense when somebody points out how WoW has obviously changed. Some simply still enjoy the game, and you cannot fault them for that. Others are in a bad relationship, and they cannot see it for what it is. It is not up to us to hold an intervention for them...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Bull.
Tons of "real gamers" play this game. Cool, you don't like it. Go play something else. But there are plenty of "real gamers" playing this game.
Believe what you will, but if the current game was what we had at launch in vanilla, none of my gaming friends wouldve touched it. Its turned in to a game that parents can play with their children. Thats fine if thats what youre into. And al the optional hard mode content is just that, optional. Im all for a mmorpg out there that caters to non gamers. Why should i deny their fun time? But yeah, iim done, and so are most of us that are looking for a more involved game experience.
It is funny how many players take offense when somebody points out how WoW has obviously changed. Some simply still enjoy the game, and you cannot fault them for that. Others are in a bad relationship, and they cannot see it for what it is. It is not up to us to hold an intervention for them...
It's just a game. Foom would have you believe that he is headed to some amazing game made for grown-ups. Of course he's not. He just wants to feel like he is.
Comments
If you're gonna attempt to troll me, you're gonna have to do better than that. If you're going to quote me, quote me in the entirety of my post. Like I said before. People making comments about how Blizzard is dumbing down this and e-z moding that, really tend to give off vibes that they have no clue what they are talking about. Yet alone admit playing the game. You say they're taking away choices of what players can do and I (along with many others) have attempted to clear this up by saying why make a pawn feel like a king? Each piece has a role and each role is being more well defined and the best part is that you still get to choose TWO roles (a la dual spec).
What even more funny is I admit that I don't currently play anymore, but I do research things to the best of my ability before I talk about them. Like how what I've said up to this point seems to be echoed by the devs themselves:
"When we first announced our design goals for class talent trees back at BlizzCon 2009, one of our major stated focuses was to remove some of the boring and "mandatory" passive talents. We mentioned that we wanted talent choices to feel more flavorful and fun, yet more meaningful at the same time. Recently, we had our fansites release information on work-in-progress talent tree previews for druids, priests, shaman, and rogues. From those previews and via alpha test feedback, a primary response we heard was that these trees didn’t incorporate the original design goals discussed at BlizzCon. This response echoes something we have been feeling internally for some time, namely that the talent tree system has not aged well since we first increased the level cap beyond level 60. In an upcoming beta build, we will unveil bold overhauls of all 30 talent trees."
You can read the rest of the Q & A here.
Again I may display a little bite from time to time, but I never lose my head long enough to not include something that also adds to the discussion at hand...sort of like you. And I respect that, even if it's hard to see sometimes.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
thats funny you bring up ej since the reason that site exists is because there were so many different, evolving, and viable builds for multiple situations for every class. that site is there for discussing and testing different builds. but of course, players such as _______ go there and blindly choose one spec and proclaim everything else invalid.
anyone who has played this game as long as you said should know in fact there were tons of viable builds for each class for both pve and pvp.
your point about a feral druid putting points in resto and balance has nothing to do with poor talent tree design and everything to do with the fact some players just dont know wth theyre doing.
so yeah, go ahead and tell yourself that the game got better because its dumbed down even more. its not gonna fix an ignorant player no matter how simple you make it. you could have a class called "tank" and it had no talents and one button that you could faceroll and be able to tank every raid on hardmode and i guarantee you therell be some mouth breather that cries on the forums about it being too hard because they keep walking into walls.
That was awesome! Well posted (^.^)
+1
Have to admit that I did not read your entire post. Only the part that had been quoted, and thus I replied to the quoted part. It was rather naive of me to do so, because it could lead to commenting on a bogus quote as opposed to what was actually said.
In general, I have found you to be very negative toward other games in reading your posts in other threads as I have come across them. So in reading the quoted part, it fit the bill and I went with that...not thinking about the fact that even as you are negative about other games and their players - your posts are usually more in depth and not as simple as just the quoted part.
Should have known better.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
There are just as many if not more options on EJ now than there were prior to the patch. But given a specific role such as single target dps there can really only be one spec that outshines others (and you are talking out of your ass if you think otherwise) as there will be spreadsheets, raid parses and BiS lists to back it up. Also keep in mind i said one spec for each tree and not each class.
And if by your logic the game has been dumbed down then sites like EJ should have gone under the minute 4.0.1 went live but guess what, they are still around discussing specs. If anything you actually have more options like Frost Dks can now choose between two hand and dual wield, and Frost Mages finally becoming pve viable and having a PvE rotation.
I've been a member of EJ long before it was the gold standard of PvE theorycraft so please don't bullshit me. They never had 3-4 viable specs in one tree for a specific roll. Yes they discussed many and the specs did evolve (just like they are now) but after 3-4 weeks into a patch that either added content or changed skills, one spec was chosen that out did the others, which would be edited on the 1st post and copied by the general player base.
Do i like it? no. And most of those people wouldn't bother to read the rotations or check BiS lists, and more often than not, they didn't have the gear to go with the spec. But thats not my point. If you think the game has been dumbed down, then please tell me why the best theorycrafters haven't quit like most of you super intelligent beings who are clearly too smart for this game.
Cataclysm is a kind of reset of things: Reset of Azeroth, relaunch of classes.
With this in mind, it is logical and "common sense" to straigthen up the game and classes.
They keep the changes that were launchd in the past 6 years (dual specs, competitive PvP, small RvR zone, scaled PvE Raids) and simply redid the basic structure.
This reset allows them to begin fresh with another 3-4 years of at least 2 more expansions.
That's what you see in the landscape, that's what you get in the class trees and with the added experience of the past years.
Common sense.
Ask yourself this, which MMO has changed anything to give you a system which makes you have more choices? Of hand I can only think of some extra sets of armour and weapons in some of the MMO’s I have played.
Every MMO, not just WoW is being dumbed down, its always less choice not more, always more things decided for you.
We had dumbing down for the console generation and now we have moved on to dumbing down for the social network generation. MMO’s want as many players as possible, that means you make the MMO for the dumbest person in the world. Otherwise you might put of the people with the IQ of a five year old.
There are really bad arguments being made why this is good. No more hybrids because of Dual speccing. Well that is not the same thing is it. I used Dual Speccing but had Dual Hybrid builds. Poor choice of words. Hybridizing encouraged thought in your build. Hybrids meant there was flexibilty withing your class. Sometimes making things too simple is a bad thing and I find these talent trees insulting to my intelligence. A few of you have even said learn to play your class again and dont QQ, but you don't get it either. Talent trees are so simple and one deminsional now anyone can play these classes.
Instead of getting rid of supposedly bad talents to make the talent trees shorter and reduce your choices to nothing. They should have replaced them with something useful and increased flexibility not reduce choices.
I mean what you're really saying is that you don't want to think about it and you want a prefab. Well thats fine for you but I dont want a prefab. I think also the arguments for this are on thin ice frankly. I dont like classes being made into point and click, select a spec Street fighter style gameplay.
I think your argument is on thin ice.
One main reason is that , as a percentage, you are actually putting a similar amount of points into both trees.
31/10
51/20
They are not exactly the same, but the ratios might as well be considered similar. In the new trees, those 10 points give you the same amount of importance level the old trees gave you in 20 points. They just condensed the trees in order to get rid of useless talents that are now included as part of a main build.
I beg to differ but reaching into another tree to barely get a tier one talent is far different than grabbing a tier 3 talent or even dong a 60-40% split. In some cases nearly Tri Spec. Some things that were very useful are simply trashed now. Case in point is this, when CAT does come out many players will be looking to just break even with what they could do in WOTLK and in some cases even BC due to inflexibility.
Five to ten points in Cat as compared to BC or WOTLK is largely the same talents at tier one minus some modifications. However with streamlined or dumbed down trees you now on average will have 3 to 5 points left to spend on tier one talents.
How is that not a Talent Tax?
- in the end there is only one optimal way how to place your talent points, as such any choice is illusional anyway
- even now, but mostly on patch day, people kept shouting "who knows how to set the talent points" "an experienced -enter class name- help me please" and so on, so for some people the trees are still too confusing
- some interesting new talents among them and many annoying ones gone
- the mastery system aint bad to give the trees more individuality
- WoW was never a game about complexity
Contra:
- overall number of talents to invest points into is too small, giving you nearly no chance for exploring builds
- you are forced to pick nearly all points in a tree, can't decided to leave any out
- still lots of boring talents there even though blizzard wanted to get rid of them
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Tier 2 is now the equivalent of tier 4.
And if you spend 31 points in one tree, you have 10 points left. Not 3-5.
If they are dumbing down (more), how far down the evolutionary tree are they aiming to try and increase subs ffs?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
There was always a cookie cutter mentality with the trees anyway, if you didn't spec right you would be an out cast.
now that the trees have become more streamlined, its really obvious where things should go and in theory prevent this.
In the future It wouldn't suprise me at all if the game mechanics would still work even without talent trees,
Sign up for a dungeon>Select Role>Your stats are now attuned accordingly for this role.
Personally i dont like this type of mechanic..but it seems to be where its heading.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
So you think taking careful Aim and steady shot with an extra 10 points as a hunter compares to a WOTLK hunter hybrid with 15 to 20ish points to spare? You have got to be joking. Tier 2 is still tier two and some talents are still not worth it at the end of the tree.
I went with improvement. You have to think outside of this being just for max level characters. They way the tree's are set up now really helps with vets leveling new classes and also new players who would otherwise be completely lost at what to choose. Also the talent points every other level makes it more enjoyable in my oppinion and makes you really feel like you're playing as your spec as soon as you point your first talent.
I think that hunters are not the only class. I've heard a lot of disappointment from hunters. Hopefully they address some of the issues they are having as Cataclysm is released.
There were 11 tiers before. Now there are 7. Tier 4 and below has been reduced to tier 2 and below.
You say streamlined I say special needs. As far as I am concerned your future prediction is already here. Really we already have dual speccing and now the spec options are so simple and one deminsional that most players playing the same spec will have the same tree. Thats just not very sporting to me. Its actually quite dull.
Talents are no brainer. However, we can't assume each player has the same IQ level. I don't see it as a dumbing down. I think Blizzard is simplifying things. Besides, what the raiders are looking for is epic raid gear. Blizzard can redo the talents and in a matter of days you will find the "best" build everywhere on the Internet. For those that PvP, well, the talent tree will be there, soon will find out what's going to be the "best" PVP flavor of the month. So rejoice.
You basically have Quest/Raid/PvP. You have leveling - solo and group. You have end game. You have farming.
You used to have choice...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Fact is, after beta tests and now live, no matter how much my friends and i want to enjoy the new wow, as gamers, it no longer satisfies. I do take note, however, that a lot of my coworkers and non-gaming friends are enjoying and flourishing in wow. We are talking about people that lack the coordination to play 99% of video games.... they are right at home in wow... thy are blizzards target audience, not gamers.
Bull.
Tons of "real gamers" play this game. Cool, you don't like it. Go play something else. But there are plenty of "real gamers" playing this game.
Tons of "real gamers" play this game. Cool, you don't like it. Go play something else. But there are plenty of "real gamers" playing this game.
Believe what you will, but if the current game was what we had at launch in vanilla, none of my gaming friends wouldve touched it. Its turned in to a game that parents can play with their children. Thats fine if thats what youre into. And al the optional hard mode content is just that, optional. Im all for a mmorpg out there that caters to non gamers. Why should i deny their fun time? But yeah, iim done, and so are most of us that are looking for a more involved game experience.
It is funny how many players take offense when somebody points out how WoW has obviously changed. Some simply still enjoy the game, and you cannot fault them for that. Others are in a bad relationship, and they cannot see it for what it is. It is not up to us to hold an intervention for them...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
It's just a game. Foom would have you believe that he is headed to some amazing game made for grown-ups. Of course he's not. He just wants to feel like he is.