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Well this is depressing.

135

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  • WycliffeWycliffe Member Posts: 354

    Originally posted by Malcanis

    If all this is purely about a vanity shop for Incarna, then, you know, whatever. Incarna cost them a shit-ton to develop, and it's a way to pay for that expansion without charging for the expansion. Looked at in that perspective, the thing wouldn't be wholly unreasonable. In fact a lot of people would probably be happy with that structure and thinking about it, I'd be OK with it. Incarna is basically a whole new game (whether its a good game is a seperate issue, so let's not get in to that) that we're getting for free. We're going to play it for free. It'll be free for us to play. So, microtransactions: fair enough. Kind of hard to argue against em on that basis.



    But the instant items for spaceships appear, then we're not only on the slippery slope but strapping on our skis and yelling HEY WATCH THIS.

    They didn't even mention vanity items for Incarna and I doubt they would do MT for that tbh. All they are doing is adding the respec cards, I honestly doubt they would ever add any other form of MT other than the current PLEX and soon to be added respec cards.

     

    I think CCP is smart enough to understand their own playerbase's distaste for F2P style cashshops and would never attempt to sell actual items. The respec cards will probably sell like hotcakes and give them the needed additional revenue, won't be gamebreaking considering they just let you remap for a fee, and ultimately will serve the same purpose PLEX does; giving players with more money than time the option to legally transfer RL $'s into ISK.

     

    Unless I'm missing something, where did you get info on MT vanity items for Incarna?

     

     

     

     

  • DoktorTeufelDoktorTeufel Member UncommonPosts: 413



    Originally posted by Wycliffe

    Unless I'm missing something, where did you get info on MT vanity items for Incarna?



    From Torfi Frans Olafsson in an interview with Eurogamer:



    Eurogamer: Business models in MMOs are changing. Are there any plans to use micro-transactions in EVE to allow people to re-map their skills?


    Torfi Frans Olafsson: Yeah, we are looking at introducing virtual goods within the game, but we feel those things should be vanity items rather than those that give you a clear benefit over other players in-game.


    That said, we are introducing a feature this expansion [Incursion], that does allow you to re-map your attributes using Pilot Licence Extensions, which are bought both in-game and on our website. PLEX represents 30-days subscription within the game.


    We will evolve just like everyone else. We will certainly not become a dinosaur. That has not been our style.


    Currently Playing: EVE Online
    Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Member UncommonPosts: 3,649

    Originally posted by Wycliffe

     

    They didn't even mention vanity items for Incarna and I doubt they would do MT for that tbh. All they are doing is adding the respec cards, I honestly doubt they would ever add any other form of MT other than the current PLEX and soon to be added respec cards.

    I think CCP is smart enough to understand their own playerbase's distaste for F2P style cashshops and would never attempt to sell actual items. The respec cards will probably sell like hotcakes and give them the needed additional revenue, won't be gamebreaking considering they just let you remap for a fee, and ultimately will serve the same purpose PLEX does; giving players with more money than time the option to legally transfer RL $'s into ISK.

    Unless I'm missing something, where did you get info on MT vanity items for Incarna?

    Incarna is fluff.  If they were to add vanity items, where else would they add them?  Decorations for your corp hq, living quarters, businesses.  Clothing.  Etc, etc, etc.

    It is a trip... CCP stating they will not be dinosaurs - they know where the future of MMORPGs are going...

    ...and then you have the push for Incarna after how long?

    Do you guys feel...dirty?

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • jrs77jrs77 Member Posts: 419


    Originally posted by Wycliffe

    Originally posted by Malcanis
    If all this is purely about a vanity shop for Incarna, then, you know, whatever. Incarna cost them a shit-ton to develop, and it's a way to pay for that expansion without charging for the expansion. Looked at in that perspective, the thing wouldn't be wholly unreasonable. In fact a lot of people would probably be happy with that structure and thinking about it, I'd be OK with it. Incarna is basically a whole new game (whether its a good game is a seperate issue, so let's not get in to that) that we're getting for free. We're going to play it for free. It'll be free for us to play. So, microtransactions: fair enough. Kind of hard to argue against em on that basis.

    But the instant items for spaceships appear, then we're not only on the slippery slope but strapping on our skis and yelling HEY WATCH THIS.
    They didn't even mention vanity items for Incarna and I doubt they would do MT for that tbh. All they are doing is adding the respec cards, I honestly doubt they would ever add any other form of MT other than the current PLEX and soon to be added respec cards.
     
    I think CCP is smart enough to understand their own playerbase's distaste for F2P style cashshops and would never attempt to sell actual items. The respec cards will probably sell like hotcakes and give them the needed additional revenue, won't be gamebreaking considering they just let you remap for a fee, and ultimately will serve the same purpose PLEX does; giving players with more money than time the option to legally transfer RL $'s into ISK.
     
    Unless I'm missing something, where did you get info on MT vanity items for Incarna?
     
     
     
     

    From the recent interview at eurogamer.net

    Eurogamer: Business models in MMOs are changing. Are there any plans to use micro-transactions in EVE to allow people to re-map their skills?

    Torfi Frans Olafsson: Yeah, we are looking at introducing virtual goods within the game, but we feel those things should be vanity items rather than those that give you a clear benefit over other players in-game.

  • MalcanisMalcanis Member UncommonPosts: 3,297

    Originally posted by Lawlmonster

    I don't even play EVE and this bothers me. If you're paying a subscription, whether other MMO's having been doing it for prolonged periods or otherwise, you shouldn't have to pay anything additional to access the whole of the game's content. It's fine that there are F2P games that allow people a larger range of options in regards to payments for their title of choice, but the reason I choose to play P2P subscription games is so that I can avoid microtransactions entirely. Granted, there are things that can be overlooked, like allowing character remaps in EVE through both in-game purchases and microtransactions, but it starts to become a problem when what used to be baseline functionality begins to have price tags attached to it. Differing opinions probably derive from the expectations we each possess as individuals, and I expect to pay a flat rate in a subscription game for access to everything (read: EVERYTHING) that's available within said title.

     

    There is already a free to play option in EVE; players can sell game time to other players in return for in-game money. Historically, it has worked pretty well and generally been good for the game, increasing the number of subscriptions by about 25% and not really unbalancing anything. But this is very different to normal free-to-play games in that CCP is directly paid for every individual account, even of the owners of those accounts aren't the ones doing the paying.

    CCP are talking about upsetting this stable and harmonious equilibrium, and quite naturally, many of the players are concerned at the possible implications. Especially as CCP have not been entirely trustworthy on the subject .

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • TheHatterTheHatter Member Posts: 2,547

    Shorter Post, maybe I'll get a reply this time.

     

    To those of you who are against the PLEX for Remap.

    Can any of you explain to me why this is any less balancing than a PVP char who can afford to have +5s stuck in at all times?

    A full head of +5s, is around 700 to 800mil, take out Charm and you're still looking at 600-700mil. An average heavy PVP player, who plays at least 12hrs a week, is going to get podded around once a month (sometimes more, sometimes less, once a month is a safe bet). That's 700mil per month. A remap would need to be much less frequent than that, and is alot cheaper. 

    If anything, it will be a better balance between those who can afford +5s and those who can't. At least people like me who can't afford +5s in my PVP JCs, won't be completely lost. 

  • LawlmonsterLawlmonster Member UncommonPosts: 1,085

    Originally posted by Malcanis

    Originally posted by Lawlmonster

    I don't even play EVE and this bothers me. If you're paying a subscription, whether other MMO's having been doing it for prolonged periods or otherwise, you shouldn't have to pay anything additional to access the whole of the game's content. It's fine that there are F2P games that allow people a larger range of options in regards to payments for their title of choice, but the reason I choose to play P2P subscription games is so that I can avoid microtransactions entirely. Granted, there are things that can be overlooked, like allowing character remaps in EVE through both in-game purchases and microtransactions, but it starts to become a problem when what used to be baseline functionality begins to have price tags attached to it. Differing opinions probably derive from the expectations we each possess as individuals, and I expect to pay a flat rate in a subscription game for access to everything (read: EVERYTHING) that's available within said title.

     

    There is already a free to play option in EVE; players can sell game time to other players in return for in-game money. Historically, it has worked pretty well and generally been good for the game, increasing the number of subscriptions by about 25% and not really unbalancing anything. But this is very different to normal free-to-play games in that CCP is directly paid for every individual account, even of the owners of those accounts aren't the ones doing the paying.

    CCP are talking about upsetting this stable and harmonious equilibrium, and quite naturally, many of the players are concerned at the possible implications. Especially as CCP have not been entirely trustworthy on the subject .

    Others have mentioned it in this thread, but I've no problem with the way they're handling PLEX. My understanding is that this can be bought with real money, and has an in-game equivilent to an item that could be sold to other players for use of renewing a subscription. Different options for paying that subscription are awesome, and that players can effectively pay for their accounts by handling the proper transactions or paying attention to the PLEX market is a great way to keep gold farmers away from the game, and it's a great way to boost the in-game economy (I'm not sure that's actually the case, though). My problem with using money to buy "vanity" items is where the developer draws the line: what is a vanity item to them, and do I expect what they're selling through microtransactions to be included in the price of my subscription? As an example, say the EVE developers come around and say, "Hey, we're letting you pay to change the hue of your ships now. Microtransactioned." Every person is different, and maybe I was spoiled with UO, but a "dye" like system, or a hue changing ability is something I would consider baseline functionality. So, really, I guess it boils down to the specifics of the individual virtual goods they're trying to sell, and whether or not I think it's just a money grab, which I admit is entirely personal.

    "This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  • MalcanisMalcanis Member UncommonPosts: 3,297

    As I said before, if CCP just want to sell pixel clothes and e-shades to chumps in stations to play dress-up dolls with their avatar, then that's fine by me. People who buy that kind of stuff should be seperated from their excess cash in case they use it to buy something with which they hurt themselves or others. I just dont want CCP to shit up the spaceships part with cash shop items that give a real advantage.

    But unfortunately I have very little faith that they wont. In fact I rather suspect they're planning to do exactly that, and I'm seeing more evidence that points that way.

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,498

    Originally posted by Palebane

    Doesn't CCP sell in-game currency anyway? That is probably one of the worst RMT's around, in my opinion.

    No, actually they don't.  Players are allowed to sell their in game currency (ISK) for Game time cards (PLEX's) which CCP does in fact sell themselves or through a variety of retail outlets.

    But CCP itself does not sell ISK for cash.

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  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Member UncommonPosts: 3,649

    Originally posted by Kyleran

    Originally posted by Palebane

    Doesn't CCP sell in-game currency anyway? That is probably one of the worst RMT's around, in my opinion.

    No, actually they don't.  Players are allowed to sell their in game currency (ISK) for Game time cards (PLEX's) which CCP does in fact sell themselves or through a variety of retail outlets.

    But CCP itself does not sell ISK for cash.

    CCP provides a mechanism for the exchange of real money for game money.

    The game money is the property of CCP.

    The real money goes to CCP.

    How can you say that they do not sell ISK for cash?

    The people farming ISK to buy the PLEX... are unwitting and unpaid employees of CCP.  They are no different than a retail clerk at a store aside from not receiving a paycheck, health insurance, or a 401k...

    CCP is not stupid.  PLEX is profit for them.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • cosycosy Member UncommonPosts: 3,228
    this is awesome and sad on the same time :/

    BestSigEver :P
    image

  • EricDanieEricDanie Member UncommonPosts: 2,238

    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    Originally posted by Kyleran


    Originally posted by Palebane

    Doesn't CCP sell in-game currency anyway? That is probably one of the worst RMT's around, in my opinion.

    No, actually they don't.  Players are allowed to sell their in game currency (ISK) for Game time cards (PLEX's) which CCP does in fact sell themselves or through a variety of retail outlets.

    But CCP itself does not sell ISK for cash.

    CCP provides a mechanism for the exchange of real money for game money.

    The game money is the property of CCP.

    The real money goes to CCP.

    How can you say that they do not sell ISK for cash?

    The people farming ISK to buy the PLEX... are unwitting and unpaid employees of CCP.  They are no different than a retail clerk at a store aside from not receiving a paycheck, health insurance, or a 401k...

    CCP is not stupid.  PLEX is profit for them.

    Because it's the exchange of a monthly subscription.

    @ Thread

    As long as you can use PLEXes for the mentioned goods, it seems viable IMO (as the real men in 0.0 will be able to easily acquire what they want without directly using real cash, and everything in-game already indirectly has an indirect real cash value now anyway), they've already broken this no-RMT barrier long ago when they allowed the exchange of monthly subs for ISK (and that is way before they implemented PLEX in-game, they had a forum section for it way before that).

    Anyway complaining about this slippery slope should have noticed there is nothing of slippery here, it was a simple hole and the bottom was reached quickly from the first second they jumped by allowing the exchanges.

  • farudimfarudim Member Posts: 48

    Dear CCP

    Are you guys bringing in more manpower to deal with the cashshop?

    If not - what inhouse-staff will you pull to see this thing implemented, the guys working on the lag issues?

     

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Member UncommonPosts: 3,649

    The monthly sub is at a fixed rate.  PLEX is variable.

    PLEX is not worth as much as it was.

    In order to get the amount of ISK a person previously did, they have to spend more real currency.

    Given the inflation of prices because of the increase of fluid ISK in the economy, ISK lost even more value.

    Once again, a person spending real currency would have to spend more to get the same overall amount of spending power within the game world.

    Who proifts?  CCP.

    It is not a case of CCP selling game time.  They already sold game time.  They sold it via subscriptions and game time cards.

    With that game time, they were making a profit.

    As users utilize ISK for PLEX for their main accounts, CCP is still receiving their subscription fee and making profit.

    For each user that utilizes ISK for PLEX for a secondary account, CCP is increasing their profit margin.  Secondary accounts will not normally utilize the amount of resources that a primary account will.

    A person that has an account that they may just use for hauling every so often but does not want to pay a sub for it, may use PLEX instead.  Etc, etc, etc.  CCP profits nicely as this continues.

    Were it a case that CCP were selling game time for ISK, there would not be PLEX in its current form.  Players would buy the PLEX directly from CCP for ISK.  There is no profit for CCP in doing this.  It is not about selling game time.  It is about profit, and there is profit to be found for CCP in selling ISK for real currency...

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Member UncommonPosts: 3,649

    ...as there will be profit in selling vanity items to the Incarana groupies.

    Leaves one to wonder what all this will mean for World of Darkness, eh?

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Member Posts: 4,640
    Originally posted by Malcanis

    As I said before, if CCP just want to sell pixel clothes and e-shades to chumps in stations to play dress-up dolls with their avatar, then that's fine by me. People who buy that kind of stuff should be seperated from their excess cash in case they use it to buy something with which they hurt themselves or others. I just dont want CCP to shit up the spaceships part with cash shop items that give a real advantage.
    But unfortunately I have very little faith that they wont. In fact I rather suspect they're planning to do exactly that, and I'm seeing more evidence that points that way.

     

    What evidence? Where do you get this shit? Did I read that interview wrong. Didn't ccp just say they weren't looking to add shit that would unbalance the game With micro transactions? They talked about fluff and attribute revamps bought with plex. Please link this "evidence" if you can't please shut it because your full of shit.

    image

    Playing: Rift, LotRO
    Waiting on: GW2, BP

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,972

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    Originally posted by Malcanis

    As I said before, if CCP just want to sell pixel clothes and e-shades to chumps in stations to play dress-up dolls with their avatar, then that's fine by me. People who buy that kind of stuff should be seperated from their excess cash in case they use it to buy something with which they hurt themselves or others. I just dont want CCP to shit up the spaceships part with cash shop items that give a real advantage.

    But unfortunately I have very little faith that they wont. In fact I rather suspect they're planning to do exactly that, and I'm seeing more evidence that points that way.

     

    What evidence? Where do you get this shit? Did I read that interview wrong. Didn't ccp just say they weren't looking to add shit that would unbalance the game With micro transactions? They talked about fluff and attribute revamps bought with plex. Please link this "evidence" if you can't please shut it because your full of shit.

    The trouble is they also said in the past that they would never do microtransations (excluding character portrait swaps). But here we are. I don't like the odds when I see them sitting around discussing how far they could potentially take this. Human greed is great evidence if you ask me.

    Now is the time to let CCP know that we don't want this. It will be way too late if we are complacent and wait until something finally pushes us over our own personal lines. This game is too good for this shit.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • mklinicmklinic Member UncommonPosts: 1,590

    The moment they add an account bound, sparkly, flying mount, I am out of here...

    -mklinic

    "There's a point I think we're missing.
    It's in the air we raise our fists in."
    -from Behind Closed Doors by Rise Against

  • OrthelianOrthelian Member UncommonPosts: 1,028

    Originally posted by Malcanis

    As I said before, if CCP just want to sell pixel clothes and e-shades to chumps in stations to play dress-up dolls with their avatar, then that's fine by me. People who buy that kind of stuff should be seperated from their excess cash in case they use it to buy something with which they hurt themselves or others.

    What the fuck?

    Favorites: EQEVETOR | Playing: No MMOs since 2014. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CUPantheon
  • ComnitusComnitus Member Posts: 2,462

    Originally posted by Saerain

    Originally posted by Malcanis

    As I said before, if CCP just want to sell pixel clothes and e-shades to chumps in stations to play dress-up dolls with their avatar, then that's fine by me. People who buy that kind of stuff should be seperated from their excess cash in case they use it to buy something with which they hurt themselves or others.

    What the fuck?

    He's saying if you want to turn EVE into Project Runway, spend your real money on in-game clothing so you can't use it to buy a gun with which you can kill people, or yourself, because everyone thinks you're gay. I think. Something along those lines.

    image

  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Member Posts: 4,640
    Noone has any faith huh? All of a sudden CCP is a bunch of stupid bastards willing to destroy their game with cash shop that sells op ships and modules that would totally destroy not only the economy but unbalance everything! Listen to yourselves this is CCP... These guys have delievered one of the greatest sandbox experiences the last seven years! With their plex system they've all but destroyed the gold sellers market I'n eve, something that no other mmo can do. They run one if the most advanced gaming servers and have a freaking developmental blueprint for eve for the next 15 years while developing two other mmos!!! With all that you think they will just destroy everything with a damn Cash shop???!? Really?

    image

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  • mklinicmklinic Member UncommonPosts: 1,590

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    Noone has any faith huh? All of a sudden CCP is a bunch of stupid bastards willing to destroy their game with cash shop that sells op ships and modules that would totally destroy not only the economy but unbalance everything! Listen to yourselves this is CCP... These guys have delievered one of the greatest sandbox experiences the last seven years! With their plex system they've all but destroyed the gold sellers market I'n eve, something that no other mmo can do. They run one if the most advanced gaming servers and have a freaking developmental blueprint for eve for the next 15 years while developing two other mmos!!! With all that you think they will just destroy everything with a damn Cash shop???!? Really?

    I really enjoyed SWG once. Faith didn't get me too far though ;)

     

    That said, and with anything CCP, I'll certainly take a wait and see attitude toward it. I can understand those who have concerns though.

    -mklinic

    "There's a point I think we're missing.
    It's in the air we raise our fists in."
    -from Behind Closed Doors by Rise Against

  • NussbaumNussbaum Member Posts: 27

    Originally posted by TheHatter

    Shorter Post, maybe I'll get a reply this time.

     

    To those of you who are against the PLEX for Remap.

    Can any of you explain to me why this is any less balancing than a PVP char who can afford to have +5s stuck in at all times?

    A full head of +5s, is around 700 to 800mil, take out Charm and you're still looking at 600-700mil. An average heavy PVP player, who plays at least 12hrs a week, is going to get podded around once a month (sometimes more, sometimes less, once a month is a safe bet). That's 700mil per month. A remap would need to be much less frequent than that, and is alot cheaper. 

    If anything, it will be a better balance between those who can afford +5s and those who can't. At least people like me who can't afford +5s in my PVP JCs, won't be completely lost. 

     

    My problem with selling PLEXs for remap is that it keeps an idiotic game mechanic alive. In  games attributes normaly give you modifiers, like dodge and hitchance. In EVE the only thing they're good for is training speed.  Most advanced players will always have either perception/willpower or int/mem maxed. Which means attributes are just something meaningless, and giving you more remaps per year just makes attributes even more meaningless. What they should do is get rid of attributes all together. But with that change they're not going to because they can make money of it. And then we will always be stuck with this needless and artificial game mechanic.

  • DoktorTeufelDoktorTeufel Member UncommonPosts: 413

    The biggest problem I have with all of this is the fact that a CCP developer wrote this sentence, word for word:


    We do not have plans to go microtransaction with EVE.


    I didn't add the underlining or bold the text. He added that himself, for emphasis. And now we find out that CCP is quite deliberately planning to go microtransaction with EVE — not simply considering it, but making distinct plans and explaining their justifications.


    This means that they are liars. Worse, CCP constantly makes promises to its core player base about their principles — keeping EVE true to its roots, always having one server cluster, etc. Clearly this is a load of garbage, and they'll backpedal on any of these claims at any time.

    Currently Playing: EVE Online
    Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR

  • tvalentinetvalentine Member Posts: 4,216

    at first when i found out i thought it really sucked. But now, i really dont care about it. I sell 1 GTC every month or 2 to fund my pvp in the game, and this should increase the price of plexes and GTCs so maybe i can go 3 months without selling one, since i see the price of plexes going up after this feature (might even be smart to buy existing plex now to resell after the expansion). Also as it is, my attributes are where i want them for a fast skill train for the skills i want, so people remapping skills wont be training much faster then me. We say it's only 350mil for a remap, but watch after the expansion that may increase to 400+ mil.

     

    EDIT: lastly i have a hard time seeing this as RMT, since it can be bought with both IN-GAME currency and RL currency, while most other games where there is RMT, they require only RL money.

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