Are we Disappointed?

mikejm78

I have been an active reader in the forums for a while now. For the most part they are fun to read and reply to. The only thing I have yet to understand is, why is it that almost everyone seems to be fast at disappointment with the new MMO games and not liking the games that are active now? It’s almost as though everyone is looking for THE best MMO game, yet it seems that a game does not even exist to compare it to. RTS has classics like CM&C and Star Craft to compare the next best RTS too, FPS has Doom and even Fighting games have Street Fighter. So what I’m getting to is this, could it be that so many of us feel that the MMO style games have hit the peak of creativeness and on its was down without us being truly satisfied with one classic we can all look to as being the example for the next or first great MMO? Could this be the reason for our disappointment? Are we to always look to games we settle with (WOW for example) as the best examples for the next MMO? If so that only means we will never be satisfied. We will always be disappointed with every new MMO. Is this the way MMO’s will always be? Are we going to always feel this way? Disappointed and just settling for what we have.

Scot

Well if you are posting on this site, your current MMO is not meeting your needs, so you are likely to be disappointed if you haunt this site. You invest a lot more time in a MMO than a solo game and you make friends with other players which makes you biased towards 'your' MMO.

 

MMO's are a software format not a game play style. Like solo or lobby games they are simply a way of playing a game. MMO's have very few game styles compared to the other game formats. Greater cost is a factor here but also when people hear about a MMO people expect to be hearing about an online RPG, nothing else. So anything like APB has an enormous perception issue to overcome.

 

The odd MMO like Tales of the Desert and Eve break the mould but they are a tiny proportion of what is essentially an RPG market. But that’s not all, they are not just RPG's they all mimic one RPG, WoW. Even the pre WoW MMO's have taken on a lot of WoW elements.

 

So it is hardly surprising we are disappointed. We have been playing the same gameplay style since WOW was launched, who is not going to get bored of that eventually? 

Palebane

In my opinion the community is broken. Until that is fixed the genre is doomed. 

maplestone

"Be the change you seek in the world"

Khalathwyr

Disappointed? Yes, I think that is a fair characterization of how I feel with the industry. It isn't anger and it most certainly isn't happiness, joy, pride or any other positive word that you can think of.

 

I personally am not disappointed for the reason you stated, as I understand it, in having one MMO that is labeld "the Best". That's because I know that it is impossible to do so in such a sum total fashion and there will never be a universal "the best" as you will never get everyone to agree on one such title to be titled as such.

 

My disappointment stems from not have a "Complete Package" MMO. One with:

 

• 
  An exhaustive guild system that allows the guild to determine the structure, the rank titles, access and permissions across the board, designing the guild crest, guild motto, guild colors, allowing guild alliances (esp. for PvP) and flagging players as such, guild housing/castle/compound, guild market, guild land ownership
• 
  Player housing, player land ownership. Ability to make your house into a store with NPC vendors. Furnishing your player home would give extra storage space as well as the better furnished it is, it would grant bonuses to the player for staying in it.
• 
  An exhaustive crafting system to wear all goods are player manufactured. Dynamic resources with dynamic stats as detailed and varied as seen in the early SWG system. Would launch with several art assests for each item and continuously add new ones to give players customization of items (i.e., launch with 20 Swords ""skins and add 2-3 new ones each month). System would not be directly linked combat sytem for progression. "Magic" items/gear would be made by "Master Craftsmen" from recipe drops from which a set number of chances would be given to make the item (i.e., recipe allows 5 chances to make the item up to 5 times). Crafting non magic items is fairly guaranteed - crafting magic items can fail).
• 
  Store front based buying and selling system (i.e., no global Auction Hall). Would  implement a "newspaper classified ads" mechanic where buyers could filter a list of player crafters ads and get directions to their shops.
• 
  Open world PvP on PvP servers and open world PvP zones/areas on PvE servers (to keep PvP Opt-in on those servers) where territory could be held.
• 
  Mercenary Contract system for PvP/territory battles.
• 
  Water travel and water combat on both an ocean/sea as well as river environment. Ranged combat from ship to ship as well as boarding.
• 
  An underground map equaling the overworld map in size for player to inhabit in the same manner (can do almost all the same things as you can on the surface, but many with an underground twist.
• 
  An undersea map in the same manner as the underground one.
• 
  As far as combat I'm personally happy with standard positional RPG based combat.
• 
  "Story" in the manner the original Asheron's Call Live team brought it to the players. Monthly content updates and core devs playing major main NPCs to aid in advancing the story.
• 
  An emotes system as big or bigger than early SWG's.
• 
  A skill based system
• 
  Creatures would only drop raw crafting components or mundane gear appropriate to what the creature is (no chainmail armor from killing a rabbit)

That's just some of what I'd want in what I'd call a complete MMO. Most MMOs of late in my view don't go into any great depth other than with combat, if that.

Kabaal

I'm kind of sad to say that i agree with a few of the posts in this thread.

 

I doubt we'll be amazed by an MMO or get even close to that first MMO feeling for another 4 or 5 years when the technology and the devs/publishers start accepting what people really want. I don't mean all the ridiculous demands but the basics and the heart of it.

ThomasN7

MMOs can stink up the place all they want because Diablo 3 and Torchlight 2 is coming soon. Hopefully The Old Republic and Guild Wars 2 will not be a disappointment.

mikejm78

Originally posted by Scot

 

So it is hardly surprising we are disappointed. We have been playing the same gameplay style since WOW was launched, who is not going to get bored of that eventually? 

This is think is what has started the disappointment in so many MMO's. The same gameplay.

Madimorga

Originally posted by Khalathwyr

Disappointed? Yes, I think that is a fair characterization of how I feel with the industry. It isn't anger and it most certainly isn't happiness, joy, pride or any other positive word that you can think of.

 

I personally am not disappointed for the reason you stated, as I understand it, in having one MMO that is labeld "the Best". That's because I know that it is impossible to do so in such a sum total fashion and there will never be a universal "the best" as you will never get everyone to agree on one such title to be titled as such.

 

My disappointment stems from not have a "Complete Package" MMO. One with:

 

• 
  An exhaustive guild system that allows the guild to determine the structure, the rank titles, access and permissions across the board, designing the guild crest, guild motto, guild colors, allowing guild alliances (esp. for PvP) and flagging players as such, guild housing/castle/compound, guild market, guild land ownership
• 
  Player housing, player land ownership. Ability to make your house into a store with NPC vendors. Furnishing your player home would give extra storage space as well as the better furnished it is, it would grant bonuses to the player for staying in it.

I would like to see player housing not tied to guild membership, or at very least, not restricted to a few large guilds on the servers.  In too many games, you're homeless for months, if not forever, because a few guilds have all the housing spots.  At the very least, everyone should have access to a tiny plot of land and maybe the beginnings of a shack, both of which can be improved upon as the character grows stronger.

• 
  An exhaustive crafting system to wear all goods are player manufactured. Dynamic resources with dynamic stats as detailed and varied as seen in the early SWG system. Would launch with several art assests for each item and continuously add new ones to give players customization of items (i.e., launch with 20 Swords ""skins and add 2-3 new ones each month). System would not be directly linked combat sytem for progression. "Magic" items/gear would be made by "Master Craftsmen" from recipe drops from which a set number of chances would be given to make the item (i.e., recipe allows 5 chances to make the item up to 5 times). Crafting non magic items is fairly guaranteed - crafting magic items can fail).
• 
  Store front based buying and selling system (i.e., no global Auction Hall). Would  implement a "newspaper classified ads" mechanic where buyers could filter a list of player crafters ads and get directions to their shops.

For the directionally-challenged (me), it would be nice if that crafter ad provided a beacon on the map to guide us to the shop of choice. 

• 
  Open world PvP on PvP servers and open world PvP zones/areas on PvE servers (to keep PvP Opt-in on those servers) where territory could be held.
• 
  Mercenary Contract system for PvP/territory battles.
• 
  Water travel and water combat on both an ocean/sea as well as river environment. Ranged combat from ship to ship as well as boarding.
• 
  An underground map equaling the overworld map in size for player to inhabit in the same manner (can do almost all the same things as you can on the surface, but many with an underground twist.
• 
  An undersea map in the same manner as the underground one.
• 
  As far as combat I'm personally happy with standard positional RPG based combat.
• 
  "Story" in the manner the original Asheron's Call Live team brought it to the players. Monthly content updates and core devs playing major main NPCs to aid in advancing the story.
• 
  An emotes system as big or bigger than early SWG's.
• 
  A skill based system
• 
  Creatures would only drop raw crafting components or mundane gear appropriate to what the creature is (no chainmail armor from killing a rabbit)

That's just some of what I'd want in what I'd call a complete MMO. Most MMOs of late in my view don't go into any great depth other than with combat, if that.

 

All of the above adds up to something I would definately play. 

 

But to answer the original question, if I hadn't found this site and others like it, I wouldn't know the word 'sandbox' as applied to MMOs.  I know it's a vague term in some ways, that to some extent it has different meanings for different people, but for me, it works as a definition of what I like best in an MMO.

 

So, having learned the term for what I like, I've gone looking for sandbox games.  And I've found several, thanks to this site, although some are outdated or so low budget that the graphics make my eyes bleed and more important, the UI makes me want to throw my keyboard against the wall, and some games that fit the definition of sandbox for others don't fit that definition for me.

 

As I've gone along in my search, my expectations have grown higher, and I've had to admit that a lot of people (probably the majority, and possibly a large majority) don't like the same things I like. 

 

So if I'm disappointed, it's because I'm in a minority as far as favored gamestyles go, which will always make it harder to find high quality games with the features I like.  Unless and until the majority gets sick of their games and goes looking for something else.  Which very well might be happening now.  I see a lot of posts like the one I quoted, asking for a lot of the same things I'm asking for.  Making me, in the end, more hopeful than disappointed.

hockeyplayr

Originally posted by Palebane

In my opinion the community is broken. Until that is fixed the genre is doomed. 

I completely agree with the above quote.  That coupled with the fact that nearly all new mmos hold your hand throughout the entire game.  Yes you can go do what you want in the majority of mmos but until you can make any significant progress doing that I know I will be disappointed.

TUX426

Originally posted by hockeyplayr

Originally posted by Palebane

In my opinion the community is broken. Until that is fixed the genre is doomed. 

I completely agree with the above quote.  That coupled with the fact that nearly all new mmos hold your hand throughout the entire game.  Yes you can go do what you want in the majority of mmos but until you can make any significant progress doing that I know I will be disappointed.

I'm of the opposite opinion. I like that players and the community don't shut up and just take what we're given. I like that we demand more for our $ than a half finished title and a cash shop. Gaming is a HUGE business...ripping us off and double dipping with sub+cash shop, like is becoming the norm, needs to end. I'd rather see major title after major title come and die APB style than to accept that that's "normal".

Truthfully, I'm proud of the community for not rolling over and taking it.

MimiEZ

I think its funny how gamers can continue playing other game genres over and over again. When people play a RPG, FPS or RTS or every other game type, they don't immediately compare it others in the genre, they see if its fun first. After they enjoy the game, then they are like "How does Rayman compare to Mario," and "It would be cool if platformers (or whatever these type of games are called now) had this." Then they go play Spyro which doesn't really have a different gameplay and enjoy it. When something new comes along in the genre everyone is surprised and think its cool, they don't beg for changes like MMOers do. 

I think when developers understand what is truly different with an MMO game that makes people "beg" for differences, then it will be easier to satisy MMOers. Maybe it's the fact that many MMO's are extremely buggy...Why is it acceptable for MMO's to come out extremely buggy, but not single player games?

What do you guys think causes this difference?

Joliust

It is just bad business to release something like an MMO unfinished. Considering the more people you keep playing, and the longer you keep them interested in the game the more money you are bringing in down the road. Not to mention a lot of customers come from your current players egging on their friends to get the game if it is good.

isbilen

To answer the OP's original question I am disappointed with what we have atm. I just keep waiting to see some new spark that a game may go in a new direction. Just to see a mmorpg where there was actuality some small amount of rp would be nice. WoW did many great things and took a lot of idea's and made a great game. It's time for something new though. In my fantasy world I want to see a game with more choices, good, bad, and consequences for them. Would also be great to see a new crafting system. Maybe even a system where players make most the weapons, armor, and spells through trial and error. I think it would be great fun to try to make a unique spell and spend time watching it back fire, or even killing my char. I just hope soon the age of WoW clones dies off.

Fishbaitz

I think many are dissapointed because they always set their sights so high. And that often what they want is so specific that most games won't go that way. I think part of it comes from the fact that so many people want something new, but not too new. A bit of it probably comes from the fact that MMOs are such an investment since you spend so much time and money on them, and if they aren't exactly what you wanted them to be or what you thought it might be you are dissapointed. You don't get that to anywhere near the degree with most console/pc games/gamers.

Personally, I'm not dissapointed. I'm not much of an MMO gamer, I play a lot of console stuff. I just can't get into the combat in most MMOs, which makes up the bulk of the game. To me, everything else is just a bonus. But that combat better be entertaining not just the first time, but every time.

svart_lotus

I would say the biggest problem is that most MMOs try to appeal to everyone. Everyone should be able to play and there should be something for you to do whatever market/setting you come from. That is also why most bought up IPs (warhammer, champions and such) gets butcherd and rewriten. In the end there is a couple of days of fun for most players and then its on to next 40-80 lvl tutorial called a MMO.

Specialized MMOs are few and far between ( i can actually only think of Eve, and i dont want to beat a dead horse argument), and if handled right they will get a loyal fanbase and they wont have to worry about money. People will offcourse still hate it, but those are not the target group for the game.

There are more factors, but most of them have been mentioned.

 

PS: Level systems must be destroyed. Its the year 2010 ffs!

tazarconan

Originally posted by mikejm78

 So what I’m getting to is this, could it be that so many of us feel that the MMO style games have hit the peak of creativeness

Not even close. Example : Forget the mmorpg's and think of the single player rpg's. Masterpieces rpg's like baldur's gate 1&2,Icewinddale series,elder scroll series, aint getting out anymore and instead the new rpg's that coming are lacking complexity,creativity,innovation and content. Developers at old days were sitting down working and thinking how to create something unique with focus on gameplay . Nowdays they do exactly the opposite all rpg's almost are linear also, and instead of gameplay they focus and great grafix and impressive effects. Same thing goes for mmorpgs.And unless the community punish them by not buying their crap products they ll keep making games like this.

 

Windssoul

We are dissapoint.

Nudles

Well, i'd think most of the ppl who are unhappy with past, current and some of the future MMO's belong to a certain "generation" of the genre. These ppl, played throughout many titles and realized that the "WoW" factor was decreasing with each title they tried since they first came into the genre. While many "newcomers" seem eager to explore games since their concepts sound and look exciting without the awareness of how much the formula been used ,abused, recycled and so on.. some say, ignorance is bliss and therefore many are looking for their next blissful experience where things actually feel fresh and new.

 

Personally, i think the MMO market is saturated with "cheap" thrill games, milking away an overused formula with few differences among them. Some titles have a cool feature but the rest of the game is standard which makes me to move on to the next game until i find something substancially interesting to hold my attention for a while. Over the years, i came across many cool features in many games and wonder when will a game be made with all these features put into it and some more.

 

These features range from game mechanics, artistic direction, content, originality and so on.

Over the past 7 years of playing MMO's, only 2 games stuck in my mind as feature rich titles : Eve Online and Guild Wars. These titles are ambitious on what they present and somehow break the mold in their own ways and i've been playing both since release.

But eventually, the genre will "evolve"... atleast that's what i'm hoping.

Windssoul

Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by hockeyplayr

Originally posted by Palebane

In my opinion the community is broken. Until that is fixed the genre is doomed. 

I completely agree with the above quote.  That coupled with the fact that nearly all new mmos hold your hand throughout the entire game.  Yes you can go do what you want in the majority of mmos but until you can make any significant progress doing that I know I will be disappointed.

I'm of the opposite opinion. I like that players and the community don't shut up and just take what we're given. I like that we demand more for our $ than a half finished title and a cash shop. Gaming is a HUGE business...ripping us off and double dipping with sub+cash shop, like is becoming the norm, needs to end. I'd rather see major title after major title come and die APB style than to accept that that's "normal".

Truthfully, I'm proud of the community for not rolling over and taking it.

Passed right over his head, didn't it Palebane?

Palebane

Originally posted by TUX426

Originally posted by hockeyplayr

Originally posted by Palebane

In my opinion the community is broken. Until that is fixed the genre is doomed. 

I completely agree with the above quote.  That coupled with the fact that nearly all new mmos hold your hand throughout the entire game.  Yes you can go do what you want in the majority of mmos but until you can make any significant progress doing that I know I will be disappointed.

I'm of the opposite opinion. I like that players and the community don't shut up and just take what we're given. I like that we demand more for our $ than a half finished title and a cash shop. Gaming is a HUGE business...ripping us off and double dipping with sub+cash shop, like is becoming the norm, needs to end. I'd rather see major title after major title come and die APB style than to accept that that's "normal".

Truthfully, I'm proud of the community for not rolling over and taking it.

A good portion of the community enjoys all that stuff, otherwise you wouldn't see more and more game companies doing it. The community is spending money on those things, telling the developers that it's ok, and that they'd like some more. Either that or we are all just completely desperate and ignorant.

Wolfenpride

The people who are constantly disappointed with each new release are the ones who hang around the forums either hyping them and others for something they are hopeful for, or flaming/trolling a game they disliked.

People who actually enjoy a game are off playing it, not wasting time trying to convince others to like it here.

SEANMCAD

I was disapointed in gaming options for a very long time. I dont want to sound like a game promoter for my favorite game but I can say one game changed my overall gaming experience back to being able to call gaming a hooby. On a whole though the landscape of options are pretty terrrible

Kyleran

I'm disappointed that MMORPG's evolved more into casual gaming experiences rather than into deep engrossing virtual worlds, but I'm in the minority of course.

SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Kyleran

I'm disappointed that MMORPG's evolved more into casual gaming experiences rather than into deep engrossing virtual worlds, but I'm in the minority of course.

 It is certainly a minority, but there are enough of us for a game to be very profitable if it targetted our market. Most companies don't want to target the group that will certainly give them a profit but not millions of dollars a month profit. They'd rather risk failure with a WoW clone to shoot for the multi-million subs.

 

There was once a movie studio who's whole premise was that it would fund smaller unique (mostly indie) projects. It had a lot of the major movie hits for a decade or so doing that very thing. Basically because the investments were lower cost, they could invest in 5 projects at a time and if just one of them did well it covered the cost of all of the projects and made a profit (they started having far better results then that though).

 

The problem was that a larger company owned them because it bought them for their record label side of business. That company was phillips I believe. They weren't satisfied with constantly being profitable, they wanted the company to go for big budget run of the mill movies which could pump up huge profits. The company wouldn't do it so they sold them off to one of the major US movie studios who basically bought them for their catalog and then shut them down.

 

Big companies aren't satisfied with just making a profit so they won't target markets like us who want a long, in depth MMO.

maplestone

Originally posted by Kyleran

I'm disappointed that MMORPG's evolved more into casual gaming experiences rather than into deep engrossing virtual worlds, but I'm in the minority of course.

The two don't need to be mutually exclusive.