well I am glad your singluar experience invalidates the experience of all the others that have posted and reposted about the social woes of the older games. Carry on oh god of the rocks.
It's not a singular experience at all, the vast majority of us that played those games back in the day preferred the social experience back then which is highlighted by the posts on these very boards.
I disagree with Rockgod99 on the fact that he thinks newer dungeons are better, but he's nailed it on the head with the social part.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
well I am glad your singluar experience invalidates the experience of all the others that have posted and reposted about the social woes of the older games. Carry on oh god of the rocks.
It's not a singular experience at all, the vast majority of us that played those games back in the day preferred the social experience back then which is highlighted by the posts on these very boards.
I disagree with Rockgod99 on the fact that he thinks newer dungeons are better, but he's nailed it on the head with the social part.
Ok...then it should be simple for you to produce the study showing the "vast majority" that perferred it...I am sure that your statement could not be what you think people think and that you are speaking from polls of players in those games and that the sample was random. Otherwise you are just talking about select group of people that come to the same topics on the same forum boards to bitch about the same subjects...clearly a vast majority...
Actually find some of this rather amusing. In the end, this becomes the same question people ask in real life. Wasn't life better back when I was a kid? There wasn't all this {crime|dishonesty|lying|etc|etc} that there is today. The simple truth of the matter is that life was largely the way it was when you were a kid simply because you were a kid.
I remember as a kid (before home PCs were everywhere) playing dungeons & dragons (paper-based). It was fascinating, exciting, and overall a great time in my life with a number of good friends. I tried playing AD&D again a few years after I graduated from college (working a career job)...and, guess what, it wasn't nearly as fun and exciting as I remembered it. The game itself didn't change, the people I was playing with and, most importantly, I (myself) changed...a lot.
Games are no different. I still remember fondly the early games like Ultima, Might & Magic, and Bard's Tale. There were absolutely awesome...considering what the alternatives were during that time. They don't hold a candle to what is available today. The games have evolved, and I'm not a teenager anymore.
well I am glad your singluar experience invalidates the experience of all the others that have posted and reposted about the social woes of the older games. Carry on oh god of the rocks.
It's not a singular experience at all, the vast majority of us that played those games back in the day preferred the social experience back then which is highlighted by the posts on these very boards.
I disagree with Rockgod99 on the fact that he thinks newer dungeons are better, but he's nailed it on the head with the social part.
Ok...then it should be simple for you to produce the study showing the "vast majority" that perferred it...I am sure that your statement could not be what you think people think and that you are speaking from polls of players in those games and that the sample was random. Otherwise you are just talking about select group of people that come to the same topics on the same forum boards to bitch about the same subjects...clearly a vast majority...
Without polling everyone who has ever been in that position, no i wont say for certain. But looking at recent threads on this topic (including this one) it's pretty clear that the majority are saying the older system was better.
It is the case that people did lose out on loot and spawns, but so what? People could try again, they could arrange an alliance, they could do any number of things. Tbh the ever decreasing level of player competition (be it pve or pvp) in mmo's and lack of need for community interaction in them is tied directly to their decline as far as i'm concerned.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
it was about the people you were with and not just the "me me me, mine, mine, mine!!!!" nonsense that happens in todays dungeon/raids.
A good amount of the content was just tank and spank with insermountable add spawns. the content is better now the social interaction is far worse.
It not all about ME ME ME. If it is, you surround yourself(or are yourself) the wrong kind of people.
It isn't hard to get a group that before hand or raid that understands what the group or raid needs as a whole. I keep hearing this, but I keep doing the opposite in games when I play. Sure there are ninjas, but they existed since gaming was born, just blacklist them and move on.
Now I will say, in some games it is VERY hard to find people like that with the same sense of playstyle, but if your persistant you can find them, but it usually isn't an overnight thing.
Actually find some of this rather amusing. In the end, this becomes the same question people ask in real life. Wasn't life better back when I was a kid? There wasn't all this {crime|dishonesty|lying|etc|etc} that there is today. The simple truth of the matter is that life was largely the way it was when you were a kid simply because you were a kid.
I remember as a kid (before home PCs were everywhere) playing dungeons & dragons (paper-based). It was fascinating, exciting, and overall a great time in my life with a number of good friends. I tried playing AD&D again a few years after I graduated from college (working a career job)...and, guess what, it wasn't nearly as fun and exciting as I remembered it. The game itself didn't change, the people I was playing with and, most importantly, I (myself) changed...a lot.
Games are no different. I still remember fondly the early games like Ultima, Might & Magic, and Bard's Tale. There were absolutely awesome...considering what the alternatives were during that time. They don't hold a candle to what is available today. The games have evolved, and I'm not a teenager anymore.
I'm no longer a teenager either (alas that was long ago), but even with working a very time consuming and stressful job I prefer to play an mmo that isn't a dumbed down facerolling fest. If I want instant gratification i'll jump on an FPS. MMO's are specifically about community, and dumbing down is not a good thing.
There is no denying that mmos like all things evolve, but in this case i'm not so sure they have changed for the better. But then ofc, that's just my personal opinion.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
How much of nostalgia is changes in the game and how much is changes in the player?
When you go back to old dungeons in old games, do they still feel the same as when you first played them?
Except for where the dungeons have been 'updated' to today's standards, yes I found UO's and AC's dungeons are still as much fun.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
EQ1 is a good example of how dungeons used to be. While I am a fan of this I am not a fan of having to start over if the group wipes. I will say to contradict that, I have met some pretty awesome people who have helped me and my groups out before. Its a cool prospect to be able to have a dungeon large enough to hold multiple groups of people.
No, dungeons were not more adventurous. That is one good thing that has changed. Dungeons were not something you would explore. People would set up camps at named spawns, and sit there for hours. I like how we are forced to complete the entire dungeon now.
Although, AC's dungeons were quite ahead of their time. Never played UO.
EQ1 is a good example of how dungeons used to be. While I am a fan of this I am not a fan of having to start over if the group wipes. I will say to contradict that, I have met some pretty awesome people who have helped me and my groups out before. Its a cool prospect to be able to have a dungeon large enough to hold multiple groups of people.
EQ1 dungeons were great and down right scary. Now, they are either too easy or reserved for the big raid groups which take too long for me most of the time. AOC is a good example of that.
I don't know if they were more adventureous, but I think they were less scripted. Sure we just went to some spot to camp some mob but todays dungeons just feel like I dont really have any control of what im doing, Its just "do this now then do that when this happen with this exact group setup" and if you don't do this exactly this way you can't do the dungeon.
Actually find some of this rather amusing. In the end, this becomes the same question people ask in real life. Wasn't life better back when I was a kid? There wasn't all this {crime|dishonesty|lying|etc|etc} that there is today. The simple truth of the matter is that life was largely the way it was when you were a kid simply because you were a kid.
Games are no different. I still remember fondly the early games like Ultima, Might & Magic, and Bard's Tale. There were absolutely awesome...considering what the alternatives were during that time. They don't hold a candle to what is available today. The games have evolved, and I'm not a teenager anymore.
I'm no longer a teenager either (alas that was long ago), but even with working a very time consuming and stressful job I prefer to play an mmo that isn't a dumbed down facerolling fest. If I want instant gratification i'll jump on an FPS. MMO's are specifically about community, and dumbing down is not a good thing.
There is no denying that mmos like all things evolve, but in this case i'm not so sure they have changed for the better. But then ofc, that's just my personal opinion.
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Horusra
well I am glad your singluar experience invalidates the experience of all the others that have posted and reposted about the social woes of the older games. Carry on oh god of the rocks.
It's not a singular experience at all, the vast majority of us that played those games back in the day preferred the social experience back then which is highlighted by the posts on these very boards.
I agree, most players that played the MMORPG's of that time enjoyed them thoroughly, and they did so because they were more 'raw', more dangerous and challenging because of its rawness. Besides, while you did have some issues with camp spots, there was also a larger sense of group bonding and community - at least in EQ - because of the fact that you could encounter others, even groups helping eachother out, it made the world feel like one contiguous, persistent world.
It's true, that there's always a degree of nostalgia and only recalling the good stuff when it comes to things of the past. But I dare to say that the singleplayer games have evolved further and better than the MMORPG genre. I mean, UO had a large and wide variety of different progression paths, EQ's world felt dangerous and unforgiving and its vastness stirred a greater sense of exploration than the current-gen themepark MMO's, the RvR in DAoC and massive warfare of Planetside have both been unequaled by the current MMO's.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Back when EQ was first released in 1999(?), the first time we entered the Dungeon of "BeFallen", we were scared out of our minds because the penalty for death in EQ was the dreaded corpse run to retrieve your corpse and all your belongings and money you had not had the foresight to put in the bank. There was also experience loss!
Thus, we literally crawled foot by foot into Befallen, made it to the end, but then on the way out, one of our party was killed, which started a chain reaction, where we were trapped! We could not go forward minus one party member, and he could not get back to his corpse. We then lost a second party member, which frced the two of them to try and fight their way to us and their corpses, as we tried to defend our position.
In the end we had to call for help from our guild, and they aided us in slowly and painfully retrieving corpses while helping extract us from the dungeon.
What is interesting is that the MOBS in these dungeons just stood there like idiots until they went aggro on you and it was a constant fear of causing a "train" or have some other player cause a train, i.e. a long line of aggro mobs chasing and killing someone as they fled the dungeon and going aggro on all other players as well. TRAIN! TRAIN! RUN! RUN! LOLOL
Now in Runneyeye I once fell off the waterfall, and could not get back out without the Goblins there killing me. Thus, as I stood on a measly crop of rock in the water afraid to move, a caster buddy of mine had to keep teleporting back and forth with my belongings and loot, so I could eventually kill myself, and spare my loot from being lost.
We eventually came back and retrieved my corpse.
Now there was also a dungeon with Minotaurs in it that gave good loot, but was boring as hell. You just stood there with your group "camping" the spawns for hours. It was the most boring and dumbest thing to ever have to do in a game, yet we did it because we didnt know any better.
Everquest later became know as EverCamp once the novelty of the 2nd MMORP wore off.
So lemme get this straight the OP thinks a "dungeon" which has a bunch of rooms and static spawns is better than....what? I realize that there are a lot of people on this site that consider themselves, "oldschoolers" you guys need a gamers retirement home where you can put on your rose tinted glasses and talk about how great the old days were. Dungeons in old games sucked they were all the same rooms or halls with static mobs packed in some passive some aggro. I played Lineage 2 for 4 years so i dont wanna hear it about not knowing what older games were like, or ffa PvP, or losing gear, or trains or grinding mobs or any number of things that a lot of people here think make a game "hardcore". Losing XP was in no way fun and discouraged PvP specially at higher levels where losing 5% of a level meant 24 straight hours of grinding to get it back. The only thing i remember about older dungeons is the frusteration of having trains dropped on you or getting cought in the middle of clan wars or some other crap excitement...maybe for the PvP that randomly happened. For the most part older dungeons sucked and the only thing entertaining about them was talking to friends in vent while doing the mindless grind that older games were.
Back when EQ was first released in 1999(?), the first time we entered the Dungeon of "BeFallen", we were scared out of our minds because the penalty for death in EQ was the dreaded corpse run to retrieve your corpse and all your belongings and money you had not had the foresight to put in the bank. There was also experience loss!
Thus, we literally crawled foot by foot into Befallen, made it to the end, but then on the way out, one of our party was killed, which started a chain reaction, where we were trapped! We could not go forward minus one party member, and he could not get back to his corpse. We then lost a second party member, which frced the two of them to try and fight their way to us and their corpses, as we tried to defend our position.
In the end we had to call for help from our guild, and they aided us in slowly and painfully retrieving corpses while helping extract us from the dungeon.
What is interesting is that the MOBS in these dungeons just stood there like idiots until they went aggro on you and it was a constant fear of causing a "train" or have some other player cause a train, i.e. a long line of aggro mobs chasing and killing someone as they fled the dungeon and going aggro on all other players as well. TRAIN! TRAIN! RUN! RUN! LOLOL
Now in Runneyeye I once fell off the waterfall, and could not get back out without the Goblins there killing me. Thus, as I stood on a measly crop of rock in the water afraid to move, a caster buddy of mine had to keep teleporting back and forth with my belongings and loot, so I could eventually kill myself, and spare my loot from being lost.
We eventually came back and retrieved my corpse.
Now there was also a dungeon with Minotaurs in it that gave good loot, but was boring as hell. You just stood there with your group "camping" the spawns for hours. It was the most boring and dumbest thing to ever have to do in a game, yet we did it because we didnt know any better.
Everquest later became know as EverCamp once the novelty of the 2nd MMORP wore off.
Those are close to my memories. Befallen was a scary place. Not easy at all the shouts of Train would echo across the chat bar freaking everyone out. Good memories!!!
Old dungeons felt significantly more 'adventurous' than the ones in newer games, and instancing along with a lot of the 'perks' that came with it is a large part of what ruined it, to be honest.
The dungeons of old felt like dungeons because they were dangerous. As you progressed deeper into the dungeons you always had to be mindful of an escape route, because sometimes things could go bad, fast. Furthermore, as you cleared the dungeon, it didn't simply stay empty as you progressed through like pretty much every dungeon in today's "modern" MMOs do. Stuff respawned, sometimes at really inconvenient moments, but that's what made it so much more exciting.
Furthermore, there were many dungeons that were non-linear. No, I don't just mean you could choose to clear wing A, B, and C in whichever order you want. I mean some dungeons were quite literally mazes to be explored, and lost in. This of course added even more to the element of adventure, because nothing was more heartpouding in an MMO as trying to escape from a train of mobs in a dungeon where you can barely navigate out of combat, let alone while running away from a train of mobs at your heels.
There were also a lot of hidden bonuses and treasure to be had by the most adventurous of players who dared to venture down into the depths of the most dangerous dungeons. And then of coruse there was coming across and saving, or even being saved by, other players or parties.
Today's dungeons are the epitome of casual. There's virtually no risk to actually 'losing' at the dungeon aside from losing some time or failing an attempt and having to do it again. It's ridiculously easy to quite literally throw your party at a group of mobs, or boss, until you 'get it right'. Overall, modern dungeons are bland 'on rails' designs that get very boring and repetitive very quickly.
Content and dungeon design is FAR better now. Better stories & characters. Better dynamic events. More strategy. The social interaction was better back then...with STRANGERS that is. Playing with strangers was fun. Now, I couldn't care less. Playing with your friends in an instanced dungeon is still the highest quality experience there is. The "fun" of a 12 yr obnoxious no-lifer training and killing my group, causing untold hours of REPLAYING to get where I was, holds zero interest to me now.
So were they more adventurous? Depends. My best experiences in dungeons were in WOW, and I played EQ and DOAC, AO ect. I still remember DAOC specifically with some fondness. But I saw through the gimmick of heavy death penalties back in the 90s and knew they were designed to extend playtime and a cover up for lack of content.
Missing the point DirtyJoe...yes you are right and most of us admit, those old EQ dungeons were static camp fests.
But some were genious in their simplicity, such as Befallen and that one dungeon whos name escapes me...it was like a Haunted House....someone refresh my memory.
The things is, the PLAYER COMMUNITY was so different back then....the players really really made these simplistic dungeons adventerous.
I guess it was the combination of good static dungeon design and a great player base.
Hell, in retrospect...TRAINS were hilarious and great fun!
Remember the Oasis? SG to Orc Highway! SG to Orc Highway!
How much of nostalgia is changes in the game and how much is changes in the player?
When you go back to old dungeons in old games, do they still feel the same as when you first played them?
Adding to this...
How much is this due to the Internet?
Who doesn't download a "guide" before entering some new dungeon these days? Back "then" there were maybe a handful of "walkthroughs" or strategy guides that were out of date with the 1st patch (if not sooner). Now...now our 1st stop is the game forum to read up on an encounter so that we are prepared.
While it's fond to recall what was, we need to remember that information flow has changed a TON since those memories. IMO, the only way to recapture that 'feeling' is to turn off all chat and not read a thing about the game.
But some were genious in their simplicity, such as Befallen and that one dungeon whos name escapes me...it was like a Haunted House....someone refresh my memory.
The things is, the PLAYER COMMUNITY was so different back then....the players really really made these simplistic dungeons adventerous.
I guess it was the combination of good static dungeon design and a great player base.
Hell, in retrospect...TRAINS were hilarious and great fun!
Remember the Oasis? SG to Orc Highway! SG to Orc Highway!
Haunted House? You mean Estate of Unrest, or Castle Mistmoore? Those were great fun, yes
I think it was a combination of the community and the open dungeon design, yes.
Originally posted by TUX426
While it's fond to recall what was, we need to remember that information flow has changed a TON since those memories. IMO, the only way to recapture that 'feeling' is to turn off all chat and not read a thing about the game.
I think it was also the inavailability of ingame maps and conveniences like that. You could truly get lost when you didn't pay attention, or when you were in a maze of a dungeon and desperate to get out. The only ways to navigate was familiarise yourself with the area, memorising landmarks and the loc statement.
The times I got lost in the beginning in the dark woods of Faydwer are uncountable. Corpse runs in that starter area were an adventure in themselves. Trying to explore every spot in Lesser and greater Faydark equal to embarking on a danger-filled mission with unpredicable outcome.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Content and dungeon design is FAR better now. Better stories & characters. Better dynamic events. More strategy. The social interaction was better back then...with STRANGERS that is. Playing with strangers was fun. Now, I couldn't care less. Playing with your friends in an instanced dungeon is still the highest quality experience there is. The "fun" of a 12 yr obnoxious no-lifer training and killing my group, causing untold hours of REPLAYING to get where I was, holds zero interest to me now.
So were they more adventurous? Depends. My best experiences in dungeons were in WOW, and I played EQ and DOAC, AO ect. I still remember DAOC specifically with some fondness. But I saw through the gimmick of heavy death penalties back in the 90s and knew they were designed to extend playtime and a cover up for lack of content.
I did significantly more grouping with friends in non-instanced old MMOs than I did in the new instanced 'throw away' dungeons of today. Oh and let's not forget the notorious dungeon group finder of WoW...
As per "better story and dynamic events", sure if you like being on-rails doing the exact same "exciting" story 50 times over again trying to get your class' leg armor to drop. If I wanted to have my hand held through the same never changing encounters for the Nth time just because the "story and effects" are good, I'd still be playing DA:O and Mass Effect.
It's something that was talked about in the 'Old MMORPG's vs new MMORPG's' article that made me think back about it, namely this part:
“Train!” would sound out into an over-crowded dungeon. Immediately everyone with any sense would duck and cover and those unfortunate enough to be caught unawares- they were already dead. Dungeons in MMORPGs of yore were hotbeds of death, terror, and feverish excitement. The best way to describe places such as Blackburrow would be akin to a copper mine: the constant threat of death and the unstable behavior of mobs would see everyone clearing out periodically until the atmosphere was safe once again. Am I sexing the descriptions up in the name of nostalgia? I don’t think so.
Back in the old days, to die in an MMORPG was not just a jolly trip to a spirit healer; it was like opening a whole can of excrement covered worms. To enter a dungeon meant preparation and maturity. Everyone involved was drilled with almost military discipline. Before even thinking about entering somewhere, bind points were made, rations were stored, and maps were printed from fan sites. One slip up could spell a five hour naked corpse run and many angry interactions with people who were once your friend. Was such fear inducing adventure fun? Well yes it was and the immersion of it all was simply magical. How many of us tell tales of late night dungeon crawls from games a decade old compared to those who tell of how things got a bit hairy in Great Barrows?
I recognized it immediately, I had the same feeling about those EQ dungeons: the added risk and danger because of the highly agressive mobs and the troubles dying could bring you in did make a lot of those encounters stick more vividly in my memory than dungeons and raids in later MMORPG's.
So how is it with you people? Did the dungeons and encounters in older MMORPG's you played leave you with a more exciting experience than later MMORPG's you played?
No . much less excitment. I remmber camping Lower Guk in EQ. Absolute boring, no challenge and no adventure. Every spawn spot (particularly the bosses) was camped to the hilt. Everyone takes a number and wait their turn. Since there are so many players around, no mob last more than a few seconds after spawn.
There is zero challenge and zero adventure. And i prayed that the next boss kill will have my drop so i can get out of there.
This thread is so partisan you would think it was a elephant vs. jackass political debate.
These arguments were not mutually exclusive.
Yes the dungeons were more challenging, exciting and scary. You had something to lose. Your adrenaline was up the whole time. I haven't had that experience in PvE since. The rewards were even more scarce due to the possibility of failure and the three week spawn, making a situation where if you had a cloak of flames or twin Ykesha's in EQ1 before any expansions you were probably one of very few. This was fun, it was exciting... when it went well.
When it went poorly, it was an empty camp fest you could run through solo and not face a single mob. The dungeon was a managerie of the servers power guilds with each room being an angry diorama of frustrated loot campers. Or, worse the night could start off like the fun time described above and then fail, with a two hour long corpse run if you're lucky or the real pits of the game; being in a PUG and everyone that ran or ported suddenly needing to get up early for work/school (cya!).
Like most of the threads on MMORPG forums this becomes just another black/white flame war, with no room for both being right. And certainly no effort at offering suggestions on how to capture the good and minimize the bad.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Content and dungeon design is FAR better now. Better stories & characters. Better dynamic events. More strategy. The social interaction was better back then...with STRANGERS that is. Playing with strangers was fun. Now, I couldn't care less. Playing with your friends in an instanced dungeon is still the highest quality experience there is. The "fun" of a 12 yr obnoxious no-lifer training and killing my group, causing untold hours of REPLAYING to get where I was, holds zero interest to me now.
So were they more adventurous? Depends. My best experiences in dungeons were in WOW, and I played EQ and DOAC, AO ect. I still remember DAOC specifically with some fondness. But I saw through the gimmick of heavy death penalties back in the 90s and knew they were designed to extend playtime and a cover up for lack of content.
I did significantly more grouping with friends in non-instanced old MMOs than I did in the new instanced 'throw away' dungeons of today. Oh and let's not forget the notorious dungeon group finder of WoW...
As per "better story and dynamic events", sure if you like being on-rails doing the exact same "exciting" story 50 times over again trying to get your class' leg armor to drop. If I wanted to have my hand held through the same never changing encounters for the Nth time just because the "story and effects" are good, I'd still be playing DA:O and Mass Effect.
I grouped more often back then too, because you HAD TO. Soloing wasn't a fun option. However, I grouped most of the time I played WOW, because I didn't care about any exp penalties and other MIN/MAX anal retentive crap the average MMO player puts himself through. Playing with my friends was always more important than EXP / hr or a piece of gear.
Aaah, so you're telling me those spawns back in EQ and DAOC weren't exactly the same every time=) C'mon. You played didn't you? You were killing the same spawns & bosses over and over again to get gear back then too. Hell, maybe you were just doing it for exp, because the gear itemization was useless, which was even worse. Having a story that makes it cool the first time is still better than NO STORY. Getting cool gear is still better than NONE. You weren't being held by the hand in a dungeon in WOW any more than sitting in the same spot for hours camping the same exact spawn point in EQ or DAOC. Nothing is as exciting the 50th time, but to say DAOC was more exciting the 50th time than WOW, just shows the bias. It all got boring and repetitive at some point. For me the harsh death penalty accelerated the BORING and repetitive parts, because dying just meant the last hour or two had to be replayed and its not like it was any harder or more exciting. Its like driving all day and then going back a few hundred miles to drive it all over again. Does driving past the same road you just drove past 2 hrs ago make it any more exciting? Nope.
Don't sugar coat the past. Like others said, how many people go into a MMO completely cold like we did back then? If you don't look at FAQs, videos or maps or walk-throughs or skill builders, which is the chief cause of all that adventure being stripped away, you're just a liar=)
Comments
It's not a singular experience at all, the vast majority of us that played those games back in the day preferred the social experience back then which is highlighted by the posts on these very boards.
I disagree with Rockgod99 on the fact that he thinks newer dungeons are better, but he's nailed it on the head with the social part.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Ok...then it should be simple for you to produce the study showing the "vast majority" that perferred it...I am sure that your statement could not be what you think people think and that you are speaking from polls of players in those games and that the sample was random. Otherwise you are just talking about select group of people that come to the same topics on the same forum boards to bitch about the same subjects...clearly a vast majority...
Actually find some of this rather amusing. In the end, this becomes the same question people ask in real life. Wasn't life better back when I was a kid? There wasn't all this {crime|dishonesty|lying|etc|etc} that there is today. The simple truth of the matter is that life was largely the way it was when you were a kid simply because you were a kid.
I remember as a kid (before home PCs were everywhere) playing dungeons & dragons (paper-based). It was fascinating, exciting, and overall a great time in my life with a number of good friends. I tried playing AD&D again a few years after I graduated from college (working a career job)...and, guess what, it wasn't nearly as fun and exciting as I remembered it. The game itself didn't change, the people I was playing with and, most importantly, I (myself) changed...a lot.
Games are no different. I still remember fondly the early games like Ultima, Might & Magic, and Bard's Tale. There were absolutely awesome...considering what the alternatives were during that time. They don't hold a candle to what is available today. The games have evolved, and I'm not a teenager anymore.
Without polling everyone who has ever been in that position, no i wont say for certain. But looking at recent threads on this topic (including this one) it's pretty clear that the majority are saying the older system was better.
It is the case that people did lose out on loot and spawns, but so what? People could try again, they could arrange an alliance, they could do any number of things. Tbh the ever decreasing level of player competition (be it pve or pvp) in mmo's and lack of need for community interaction in them is tied directly to their decline as far as i'm concerned.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It not all about ME ME ME. If it is, you surround yourself(or are yourself) the wrong kind of people.
It isn't hard to get a group that before hand or raid that understands what the group or raid needs as a whole. I keep hearing this, but I keep doing the opposite in games when I play. Sure there are ninjas, but they existed since gaming was born, just blacklist them and move on.
Now I will say, in some games it is VERY hard to find people like that with the same sense of playstyle, but if your persistant you can find them, but it usually isn't an overnight thing.
I'm no longer a teenager either (alas that was long ago), but even with working a very time consuming and stressful job I prefer to play an mmo that isn't a dumbed down facerolling fest. If I want instant gratification i'll jump on an FPS. MMO's are specifically about community, and dumbing down is not a good thing.
There is no denying that mmos like all things evolve, but in this case i'm not so sure they have changed for the better. But then ofc, that's just my personal opinion.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Except for where the dungeons have been 'updated' to today's standards, yes I found UO's and AC's dungeons are still as much fun.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No. I hated corpse run back then and hate it now. End of story.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
EQ1 is a good example of how dungeons used to be. While I am a fan of this I am not a fan of having to start over if the group wipes. I will say to contradict that, I have met some pretty awesome people who have helped me and my groups out before. Its a cool prospect to be able to have a dungeon large enough to hold multiple groups of people.
No, dungeons were not more adventurous. That is one good thing that has changed. Dungeons were not something you would explore. People would set up camps at named spawns, and sit there for hours. I like how we are forced to complete the entire dungeon now.
Although, AC's dungeons were quite ahead of their time. Never played UO.
EQ1 dungeons were great and down right scary. Now, they are either too easy or reserved for the big raid groups which take too long for me most of the time. AOC is a good example of that.
I don't know if they were more adventureous, but I think they were less scripted. Sure we just went to some spot to camp some mob but todays dungeons just feel like I dont really have any control of what im doing, Its just "do this now then do that when this happen with this exact group setup" and if you don't do this exactly this way you can't do the dungeon.
I agree, most players that played the MMORPG's of that time enjoyed them thoroughly, and they did so because they were more 'raw', more dangerous and challenging because of its rawness. Besides, while you did have some issues with camp spots, there was also a larger sense of group bonding and community - at least in EQ - because of the fact that you could encounter others, even groups helping eachother out, it made the world feel like one contiguous, persistent world.
It's true, that there's always a degree of nostalgia and only recalling the good stuff when it comes to things of the past. But I dare to say that the singleplayer games have evolved further and better than the MMORPG genre. I mean, UO had a large and wide variety of different progression paths, EQ's world felt dangerous and unforgiving and its vastness stirred a greater sense of exploration than the current-gen themepark MMO's, the RvR in DAoC and massive warfare of Planetside have both been unequaled by the current MMO's.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Yes and no....
Back when EQ was first released in 1999(?), the first time we entered the Dungeon of "BeFallen", we were scared out of our minds because the penalty for death in EQ was the dreaded corpse run to retrieve your corpse and all your belongings and money you had not had the foresight to put in the bank. There was also experience loss!
Thus, we literally crawled foot by foot into Befallen, made it to the end, but then on the way out, one of our party was killed, which started a chain reaction, where we were trapped! We could not go forward minus one party member, and he could not get back to his corpse. We then lost a second party member, which frced the two of them to try and fight their way to us and their corpses, as we tried to defend our position.
In the end we had to call for help from our guild, and they aided us in slowly and painfully retrieving corpses while helping extract us from the dungeon.
What is interesting is that the MOBS in these dungeons just stood there like idiots until they went aggro on you and it was a constant fear of causing a "train" or have some other player cause a train, i.e. a long line of aggro mobs chasing and killing someone as they fled the dungeon and going aggro on all other players as well. TRAIN! TRAIN! RUN! RUN! LOLOL
Now in Runneyeye I once fell off the waterfall, and could not get back out without the Goblins there killing me. Thus, as I stood on a measly crop of rock in the water afraid to move, a caster buddy of mine had to keep teleporting back and forth with my belongings and loot, so I could eventually kill myself, and spare my loot from being lost.
We eventually came back and retrieved my corpse.
Now there was also a dungeon with Minotaurs in it that gave good loot, but was boring as hell. You just stood there with your group "camping" the spawns for hours. It was the most boring and dumbest thing to ever have to do in a game, yet we did it because we didnt know any better.
Everquest later became know as EverCamp once the novelty of the 2nd MMORP wore off.
So lemme get this straight the OP thinks a "dungeon" which has a bunch of rooms and static spawns is better than....what? I realize that there are a lot of people on this site that consider themselves, "oldschoolers" you guys need a gamers retirement home where you can put on your rose tinted glasses and talk about how great the old days were. Dungeons in old games sucked they were all the same rooms or halls with static mobs packed in some passive some aggro. I played Lineage 2 for 4 years so i dont wanna hear it about not knowing what older games were like, or ffa PvP, or losing gear, or trains or grinding mobs or any number of things that a lot of people here think make a game "hardcore". Losing XP was in no way fun and discouraged PvP specially at higher levels where losing 5% of a level meant 24 straight hours of grinding to get it back. The only thing i remember about older dungeons is the frusteration of having trains dropped on you or getting cought in the middle of clan wars or some other crap excitement...maybe for the PvP that randomly happened. For the most part older dungeons sucked and the only thing entertaining about them was talking to friends in vent while doing the mindless grind that older games were.
Those are close to my memories. Befallen was a scary place. Not easy at all the shouts of Train would echo across the chat bar freaking everyone out. Good memories!!!
Old dungeons felt significantly more 'adventurous' than the ones in newer games, and instancing along with a lot of the 'perks' that came with it is a large part of what ruined it, to be honest.
The dungeons of old felt like dungeons because they were dangerous. As you progressed deeper into the dungeons you always had to be mindful of an escape route, because sometimes things could go bad, fast. Furthermore, as you cleared the dungeon, it didn't simply stay empty as you progressed through like pretty much every dungeon in today's "modern" MMOs do. Stuff respawned, sometimes at really inconvenient moments, but that's what made it so much more exciting.
Furthermore, there were many dungeons that were non-linear. No, I don't just mean you could choose to clear wing A, B, and C in whichever order you want. I mean some dungeons were quite literally mazes to be explored, and lost in. This of course added even more to the element of adventure, because nothing was more heartpouding in an MMO as trying to escape from a train of mobs in a dungeon where you can barely navigate out of combat, let alone while running away from a train of mobs at your heels.
There were also a lot of hidden bonuses and treasure to be had by the most adventurous of players who dared to venture down into the depths of the most dangerous dungeons. And then of coruse there was coming across and saving, or even being saved by, other players or parties.
Today's dungeons are the epitome of casual. There's virtually no risk to actually 'losing' at the dungeon aside from losing some time or failing an attempt and having to do it again. It's ridiculously easy to quite literally throw your party at a group of mobs, or boss, until you 'get it right'. Overall, modern dungeons are bland 'on rails' designs that get very boring and repetitive very quickly.
Content and dungeon design is FAR better now. Better stories & characters. Better dynamic events. More strategy. The social interaction was better back then...with STRANGERS that is. Playing with strangers was fun. Now, I couldn't care less. Playing with your friends in an instanced dungeon is still the highest quality experience there is. The "fun" of a 12 yr obnoxious no-lifer training and killing my group, causing untold hours of REPLAYING to get where I was, holds zero interest to me now.
So were they more adventurous? Depends. My best experiences in dungeons were in WOW, and I played EQ and DOAC, AO ect. I still remember DAOC specifically with some fondness. But I saw through the gimmick of heavy death penalties back in the 90s and knew they were designed to extend playtime and a cover up for lack of content.
Missing the point DirtyJoe...yes you are right and most of us admit, those old EQ dungeons were static camp fests.
But some were genious in their simplicity, such as Befallen and that one dungeon whos name escapes me...it was like a Haunted House....someone refresh my memory.
The things is, the PLAYER COMMUNITY was so different back then....the players really really made these simplistic dungeons adventerous.
I guess it was the combination of good static dungeon design and a great player base.
Hell, in retrospect...TRAINS were hilarious and great fun!
Remember the Oasis? SG to Orc Highway! SG to Orc Highway!
Adding to this...
How much is this due to the Internet?
Who doesn't download a "guide" before entering some new dungeon these days? Back "then" there were maybe a handful of "walkthroughs" or strategy guides that were out of date with the 1st patch (if not sooner). Now...now our 1st stop is the game forum to read up on an encounter so that we are prepared.
While it's fond to recall what was, we need to remember that information flow has changed a TON since those memories. IMO, the only way to recapture that 'feeling' is to turn off all chat and not read a thing about the game.
Haunted House? You mean Estate of Unrest, or Castle Mistmoore? Those were great fun, yes
I think it was a combination of the community and the open dungeon design, yes.
I think it was also the inavailability of ingame maps and conveniences like that. You could truly get lost when you didn't pay attention, or when you were in a maze of a dungeon and desperate to get out. The only ways to navigate was familiarise yourself with the area, memorising landmarks and the loc statement.
The times I got lost in the beginning in the dark woods of Faydwer are uncountable. Corpse runs in that starter area were an adventure in themselves. Trying to explore every spot in Lesser and greater Faydark equal to embarking on a danger-filled mission with unpredicable outcome.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I did significantly more grouping with friends in non-instanced old MMOs than I did in the new instanced 'throw away' dungeons of today. Oh and let's not forget the notorious dungeon group finder of WoW...
As per "better story and dynamic events", sure if you like being on-rails doing the exact same "exciting" story 50 times over again trying to get your class' leg armor to drop. If I wanted to have my hand held through the same never changing encounters for the Nth time just because the "story and effects" are good, I'd still be playing DA:O and Mass Effect.
No . much less excitment. I remmber camping Lower Guk in EQ. Absolute boring, no challenge and no adventure. Every spawn spot (particularly the bosses) was camped to the hilt. Everyone takes a number and wait their turn. Since there are so many players around, no mob last more than a few seconds after spawn.
There is zero challenge and zero adventure. And i prayed that the next boss kill will have my drop so i can get out of there.
This thread is so partisan you would think it was a elephant vs. jackass political debate.
These arguments were not mutually exclusive.
Yes the dungeons were more challenging, exciting and scary. You had something to lose. Your adrenaline was up the whole time. I haven't had that experience in PvE since. The rewards were even more scarce due to the possibility of failure and the three week spawn, making a situation where if you had a cloak of flames or twin Ykesha's in EQ1 before any expansions you were probably one of very few. This was fun, it was exciting... when it went well.
When it went poorly, it was an empty camp fest you could run through solo and not face a single mob. The dungeon was a managerie of the servers power guilds with each room being an angry diorama of frustrated loot campers. Or, worse the night could start off like the fun time described above and then fail, with a two hour long corpse run if you're lucky or the real pits of the game; being in a PUG and everyone that ran or ported suddenly needing to get up early for work/school (cya!).
Like most of the threads on MMORPG forums this becomes just another black/white flame war, with no room for both being right. And certainly no effort at offering suggestions on how to capture the good and minimize the bad.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I grouped more often back then too, because you HAD TO. Soloing wasn't a fun option. However, I grouped most of the time I played WOW, because I didn't care about any exp penalties and other MIN/MAX anal retentive crap the average MMO player puts himself through. Playing with my friends was always more important than EXP / hr or a piece of gear.
Aaah, so you're telling me those spawns back in EQ and DAOC weren't exactly the same every time=) C'mon. You played didn't you? You were killing the same spawns & bosses over and over again to get gear back then too. Hell, maybe you were just doing it for exp, because the gear itemization was useless, which was even worse. Having a story that makes it cool the first time is still better than NO STORY. Getting cool gear is still better than NONE. You weren't being held by the hand in a dungeon in WOW any more than sitting in the same spot for hours camping the same exact spawn point in EQ or DAOC. Nothing is as exciting the 50th time, but to say DAOC was more exciting the 50th time than WOW, just shows the bias. It all got boring and repetitive at some point. For me the harsh death penalty accelerated the BORING and repetitive parts, because dying just meant the last hour or two had to be replayed and its not like it was any harder or more exciting. Its like driving all day and then going back a few hundred miles to drive it all over again. Does driving past the same road you just drove past 2 hrs ago make it any more exciting? Nope.
Don't sugar coat the past. Like others said, how many people go into a MMO completely cold like we did back then? If you don't look at FAQs, videos or maps or walk-throughs or skill builders, which is the chief cause of all that adventure being stripped away, you're just a liar=)