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Console MMO's, Why The Hate?
MysteryB
Member UncommonPosts: 355
Hey guys, I am sure this has been touched on but I decided to re-open the discussion.
We all know console MMOs are few and far between, in fact Phantasy Star Universe, Everquest Online Adventures and FFXI are the only ones who made it there and FFXI is the only one still alive and well.
With the announcement of new games soon to come out like DC Universe Online, FFXIV and more I noticed alot of PC people dont seem to want console players on the games, but why is that?
On DC Universe Online for instance alot of people talk on facebook, the PC people seem to be against the ps3 players saying things like (They are all noobs, they dont know how an MMO works) but the fact is they probably know better than PC people. Yes PC people know how to grind and level and know the basic's of an MMO, but it is supposed to be an action game which PC players are definantly not used to, so I think the ps3 players will get ahead in the game alot sooner and be better at it in general.
Unfortunantly the game will not be cross-platform so there is no way to tell.
It doesnt matter what the game is, looking at a number of MMOs that were supposed to release for console's (AoC, CO, etc.) it seems PC players really dont want ps3 or xbox players on their games which isnt how it should be, not every MMO player that thinks they are hardcore are hardcore. Alot of these people have only played 1-3 MMOs but dont want console players because they say they are noobs and should stick to shooter games, but how would it have been if Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot and WoW would have been released for console's and not for PC, than they try to shift them to PC and all consol players were against it?
Whether one console is better than the other is another story, but just saying everyone was a noob at some point in time, everyone reading this, so look at expanding into consoles as a good thing, as a way to expand this amazing genre of games and maybe revive the genre in general! MMOs have been dead for the last couple of years.
Look at the overhyped games we have gotten, Age of Conan, WAR, Aion, APB (haha), there hasnt exactly been a great MMO in the last 6 years you could say, since WoW and CoH have come out, personally I like Aion and Age of Conan but they werent well recieved to say the least.
The MMO market needs a change, something to pick it up and change the way we do things, it seems like anyone who tries something different (Fury, Tabula Rasa, APB, The Matrix Online) get shut down, yet "WoW clones" like (just spitting a few names, not shooting these down) Lineage 2, Aion, Runes of Magic, Allods, WAR and many more are still going strong.
Even if you wont admit it the genre needs a change and I think going into the console direction, not strictly console but cross-platform games could be what lifts us out of this slump. If you can put in more action and RPG elements to MMOs (cut scenes, God of War/Devil May Cry combat) you can make amazing games. And if you higher the specs but make the game for consoles and PC, those with good PCs can play but those without them can play just as well on their console's and so everyone can be happy.
Thoughts if your still reading?
Mystery Bounty
Comments
I feel the complexity a MMORPG "can" be is something that is not easely handled onto a console, except if it would be the common fully combat oriented type of MMO then it might work, so since we see more and more MMORPG focus on just combat with everthing else just slapped on as a after thought it might happen to see the MMO genre move onto console's.
I'd say its because MMO's are the truely last genre that is still specific to the PC that we have the possibility to lose(though flight sims I'd say could be as well, but I lack knowledge of them)
We used to be the bread and butter for FPS games. Nothing compares to a k/m, but regardless with the newer technology and all the systems being online, they have lost that genre with zero chance to fight back.
I'd say RPG's, but short of custom modules which not all gamers partake in, they are all cross platform, not to mention I'd be willing to bet many could name quite a few rpgs that are console only that are amazing in themselves.
So that leaves us two: MMO's and of course RTS games. RTS games can not be ported out. MMO's on the other hand, obviously can and the market is being tested even more so right now. That is the hate. It doesn't help that FFXIV has shown limitations put into place in regards to the PS3 so that PC gamers actually will lose out and I think that would be the main cause of the hate at the moment and in a few months after FFXIV and DC launch, I'd imagine you will not hear much about this discussion.
If you look at the defense of FFXIV you will see lots of reasons why they made certain design decisions. You will also see the counter argument that these design decisions limit certain aspects of the game.
Consoles, and specific consoles, cater to certain audiences. Generally you can expect a Xbox360 owner to be a different audience than a Wii owner. Consoles cater to different audiences than PCs.
I think the worst thing that can happen is to create a cross platform MMO at the expense of one platform (read FFXIV).
What ever happened to EVEs platform game? Dust 314 or whatever it was called?
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
It could be that MMO's life spans are longer than a console's. If you stick a MMO onto the PS2 let's say, than it'll be forever held to the PS2 even when a PS3, an xbox360, or PC's that run 20x better come out. I mean Eve is an example of a computer MMO coming out in 2003 with 2003 graphics, than in 2008? it gives itself a graphics update because PC MMO players have better computers by then to support it. A console MMO is forever frozen to that console even when your players and market have evolved past it.
Also when making a console MMO, using a controller and keyboard at the same time isn't for everyone.
EDIT: So if you launch a MMO on the console, and 5 years down the road you wanted to add huge raids, or some new features, your game is constricted by the restrictions of the 5 year old (or more) console that you attached the game too.
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent
I don't mind playing with people who also play consoles. I'd guess nearly half of my online friends qualify in that category. I do object to being subject to crappy UI and control schemes because they were written for a gamepad and poorly, if at all, optimized for PC.
The first time I tried a console port was of a game that I'd previously experienced on PC, and it's been years and years so I don't even recall the culprit. The first thing that jumped out at me was that the computer was trying to aim for me instaed of just letting me do my thing. That's when I first became acquainted with the concept of auto-targetting.
I was unimpressed.
I tried a few other ports as well and all were found lacking as far as their control. One really ticked me off (I think it was Hitman), when I was climbing a ladder and couldn't use my mouse to look around while hanging on to it. Also, I couldn't peek over the top without the game taking over and forcing me up on to the next level with whichever mobs happened to be there. Another quick, less-than-memorable, uninstall.
Frankly, the only time I've enjoyed console games was on a console. And certainly not action games. Only racers (still love Gran Tourismo) or platformers. The console platform is *not* ideal for action games like FPSs. No console controller will ever be able to match the speed, agility or accuracy of a PC's M/KB combination without help from the game.
And MMOs, by their nature, require a lot of UI interaction with menus, plus the ability to type. I know that you can attach a keyboard to some consoles now, so why not just add a mouse and get a PC instead?
Consoles gamers are generally fine; console games generally suck ass.
My opinion.
1. Developers have been dumbing down games that would have been for PC to make them adaptable for use in Consoles
2. Many developers decide not to even put games out on PC to focus on Console games entirely due to ease and profit.
3. A simplified Console market has brainwashed the developers into easy, story lacking ,churned out crap instead of early PC days works of art (Balders gate,Icewind Dale,EQ,Asherons Call 1,UO many more I am forgetting ATM.)
Probably some other things worth mentioning if I think about it for awhile ,but you get the idea.
For the sake of argument, I'm not sure it's fair to blame the PS2 for holding back something like FFXI both in terms of graphical capabilities and gameplay options when the game was, for all intents and purposes, meant to be played on a console. It was just a bonus that the game happened to be ported over to the PC, regardless of the fact the PC version actually came first. If the option to play on a console was taken out of the equation, chances are there would be no Final Fantasy MMORPGs on the market today, as they are almost exclusively console titles. The only other console MMORPG, Everquest Online Adventures, was released exclusively for the PS2 and had nothing to do with PC gaming.
Of course, when you invest in a console MMORPG, you accept that the game will only be developed within the confines of the console's graphical capabilities, but that sort of thing should be expected. Also, who is to say that future console-based MMORPGs can't have certain gameplay elements that would not work very well when played on a PC without a gamepad? Given that consoles are more suited to action games, we don't have to see a WoW-clone on the PS3 or 360. Just as World of Warcraft wouldn't work very well if ported to a console, a console MMORPG could be developed that absolutely could not be ran efficiently using a mouse and keyboard. Seeing as consoles can be bought for around 400 dollars these days, you're not going to find a PC that rivals those systems for 400, 500, or even 600 dollars (the best video cards alone cost around 500 dollars), and you sure aren't going to find a PC that surpasses the capabilities of those systems unless you plan on forking over serious cash on bleeding edge technology and then overclocking (and potentially ruining) all of it.
In terms of the life cycle of a console, sure, I'd wager to bet that few people are playing FFXI on the PS2 these days, but Everquest Online Adventures has been online for 7 years, four of which came after the release of the PS3. Also, we still have yet to really see the limit of what the 360 and PS3 are capable of (example: Killzone 2 looks better and runs better than any game I've ever seen for the PC), four and five years after the next gen consoles released. This console generation is estimated to last for at least another five or six years, and I'd wager to bet the next generation of consoles will last even longer. Again, MMORPGs can co-exist on either platform or they can be developed exclusively for either, as there are certainly games that exist today that follow that model.
What is exactly being dumbed down or simplified for consoles ? First of all if any platform gets simplified its the pc because eveything is designed around point and click. How hard is it to point and click around the UI ? I own both a pc and console and by far the only difference is that one is made for the controller and the other is made for the keyboard and a mouse. So I really hate it when people say games are being dumbed down for consoles because they really aren't. Graphically the pc looks better and potentially it can handle better graphics but as we all should understand that graphics do not make a game.
I personally can''t wait to see Undead Lab's console mmo, Turbine's console mmo and CCP's console mmo for the 360/PS3. Console gamers shouldn't be denied good games just because they prefer a controller over a mouse and keyboard.
Personally, the existence of Console MMORPGs don't bother me. To an extent. When they start talking Crossplatform MMORPGs (console + PC), then I have concerns.
The root of the problem for me is the design decisions made to compromise / limit the game due to console limitations. Features not being allowed or explored because the consoles cannot do it. Features that the PC could easily make great use of. Or worse, the PC version would be so limited to keep an even playing field with consoles. That ticks me off to no end.
It's the same basic problem between alot of Crossplatform (console + PC) games.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Alot of valid points there, but for the people saying they would have to dumb down MMOs for consoles why is that?
1. Graphics - ps3 and 360 can both go to 1080p, cant go as high as some PCs, but out of 1,000 MMO gamers only a handful (1-3) actually have gaming computers.
2. Memory - The ps3 has hundreds of gigs of memory for even the low cost ones, and the 360 sells hard drives with high gigs and the new one has a 250 gb hd built in, so we know its not lack of memory.
3. Gameplay - You cant say this is a limitation when PCs only use 2 more buttons than ps3/360. PC you use wasd and 10 buttons, on ps3 controller you use the stick = wasd and than spam 12345678, you only really use the keyboard for those 8, the rest is your mouse which could be the right stick if needed.
Also, ps3 AND 360 have attachable keyboards for the controllers that have everything a normal keyboard does, so if you made it a requirement and use the numbers on there there is no difference!
Mystery Bounty
Problem is mmos used to be that complicated to where they had no place on consoles. Now there are so many piles of crap being shoved out the gate its just worth it to try something new. It really is an untapped resource.
I think that at least part of the problem is jealousy from PC elitists.
The PC is the most versatile of all gaming platforms, but that versatility is not reflected in the games that are released on the PC. Sure, there are mountains of original freeware and open source indie games that are released, but AAA PC games tend to either be console ports or members of the PC holy trinity (FPS, RTS and MMORPG). There certainly isn't anything like Katamari Damacy or Shadow of The Colossus exclusively on the PC. As a result, the only thing PC gamers can point to is the holy trinity. Once consoles get those genres, and they will eventually add them, the PC will have nothing unique to offer.
Consoles already have FPS games. If you give them MMOs then all that's left is RTS. With touch screens already a staple of handheld devices, multitouch becoming the norm, and pointing devices like the Wiimote on consoles, it's only a matter of time before even RTS games become part of console gaming as well. If you think that last one was a stretch please keep in mind that people pony'd up $150 to play Rock Band. It would be no problem to package a game with a floating mouse and touch screen for $100 or less.
As for complexity, check out Knights in the Nightmare for the DS. In fact, pick up any strategy RPG that's come out on a console in the last ten years. In fact, strategy RPGs only come out on consoles and handheld systems. Also keep in mind that complexity for the sake of compexity does not a good game make. The deepest game ever invented, Go, Can be played with a one button mouse or one button joystick.
I would love to see a MMO for Xbox 360 and the PS3.. I think that more people will play (invest more time) the MMO for the 360 and PS3 then they would for the PC... Well of course this MMO would have to have the same servers for each of the systems.
Most MMORPG gamers I know also own on Xbox or PS3.
The opinion that console gamers are younger and more immature is very outdated. Gamers are gamers. We own several systems and play on them all.
The game determines the demographic that will play it....not the system it's played on.
I dont want to see mmos on consoles, I dont want to see them cross platforming either.
Why? Because I love pcs and its one of the last things that is saving pc gaming.
PC Gaming is a bit niche and I would like it to stay that way to some extent. I dropped 1300 dollars on a homebuilt pc and I bought my wife a gaming laptop for roughly the same. Thats 2600 dollars.
There are already enough idiots in games, I dont want to invite even more of the masses.
My opinion on this is it can be both i don't mind. As long as i can play it I don't mind. The biggest turn off is if a PC game plays like a console game. Another words i gotta rig my keyboard and mouse to play like a controller to play it right. To date only one game has done this and thats FF11. If i gotta grab a controller to play a PC game something isn't right to me.
But back on topic. I don't mind if an MMO can be played on the playstation or whatnot. that just means more people in the game world making it feel even more populated. It's the ones playing the console end that gotta deal with the virtual keyboard.
Also merely because a MMO is on the console does not mean the computer end is losing someone. People who play the console version are probably from the pool of people who would never have picked up the PC version anyhow.
My basic feel. i'm cool with a game having a console and PC version as long as:
They don't force me to use a controller for the PC version when they port it from console.
or they force me to rig my keyboard and mouse to act like a controller.
If you are going to make a console and PC version the golden rule to understand both work differently. What works for a console setup won't work for a PC and vice versa. Otherwise i have no hate for a console MMo i think it's rather unique if you ask me.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
PC gamers not used to action, eh? That's a...unique perspective.
As for console MMOs, they're pretty clearly a good idea to make but like MMOs in general it's really tough to execute on the right design to make them really explode. DC Universe Online really seemed to be taking the right attitude towards things by ditching at least some of the genre norms in favor of pushing things in another direction -- although I'm not sure they quite have the quality bar going to make that work for them.
Honestly I think a big hurdle for consoles is the physical medium (ie the disc itself.) The inability to easily offer F2P gameplay is a huge obstacle to creating the conditions for a successful MMO.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No hate,They just aren't good ones and for some reason companies don't seem to want to make them which is huge mistake.The biggest mistake AoC has made is not going on the 360 like they said they would it no doubt would be the biggest console mmo.Then when it happens the game will have the Halo effect and you will see tons of console mmos after
I don't hate the crossover more like noticed that console players do not type much .Conversation is stilted .This was my experience on FFXI. I get the impression the keyboard was harder to get to on the Playstation 2 or it took more maneuvering and hence most did not bother. I think MMORPGs need chatter. That makes the feeling of aliveness and community. If a medium restricts or somehow makes it hard to talk then you lose the aspect of MMORPG that make it unique. Well not talk per se but involved conversation. I mean you talk in unreal tournament too but I mean more involved conversation.
hehe mmo's the last bastion of pc gaming? only strategy rpg's on consoles and handhelds? wow some of you people need to get out the house more or just browse the internet. go check out gamersgate, direct2drive, steam, goodoldgames, matrix, paradox and then tell me that mmo's are all we have left or that strategy rpg's don't exist. pc gaming is alive and well and games on console are just another revenue source.
Name a recent strategy RPG on the PC. the last one that might possibly qualify was Jagged Alliance and that was a DOS game. The new King's Bounty games don't qualify because they are straight up strategy games cast in the same mold of Heroes of Might and Magic. Which, incidentally, was based off of the original King's Bounty on the Amiga and Sega Genesis.
I also don't think that MMOs are the last bastion of PC gaming. Consoles have done MMORPGs before and they will do them again. I do think that RTS games will be the last bastion of PC gaming though since consoles have huge interface hurdles to overcome in that genre. That's assuming that iPad Tower defense games don't replace RTS games completely....
BTW, the very, very earliest beginnings of the RTS genre occured on the Sega Gensis with a little game called Herzog Zwei. For a more modern example of what a RTS games could have been if they stayed on consoles, check out Gate 88.
It's a bold man that -- 4 days away from the release of Civilization V -- claims there are no strategy games on the PC.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
OP if you truly think that Console gamers in general know what makes a good MMO you better think twice
Take Gametrailers.com for example ,a website that could cal itself consoletrailers.com with ease.The website hardly spends time on PC games and practicly never on games that are ALSO on the pc (unless it is about a MMO).The forums are made up for 99% of Fanboy console gamers (Its really really terrible with the conosle platform wars there).Its alo one of the biggest and most polished gamng sites out there.so in short a good measuring tool of what dedicated console users think and feel.
I remember when quite recently it was confirmed that DC universe was going to be a PaytoPlay MMO with a montly subscription this is what you saw in the PS3 forum almost exclusivly :
"they are going to make us pay AFTER I ALREADY BOUGHT THE GAME???"
"I am canceling my pre-order -_-"
"I think this is a huge mistake we already pay for it when we by it at the store"
And this went on and on and on for pages and pages and pages AND for days and days and days xD.
Wit only a few multiplat and experienced MMO players disagreeing with the complaints.
This was went it was first anounced but still today the complaining about paying a montly subscription for a MMO does not sit well with console only gamers.No they do not know much about MMO's in general that much is clear they simply are not adjusted to the entire concept.
Note: im talking about console ONLY players here wich do happen to make out the majority of console players.
Next to that , making a MMO playable and intuitive to use on a gamepad can and will only limit the design so the MMO wich is meant to release on a console next to the PC version will have to be designed first for the console to make it worl on both platforms (reason why AoC never made it to the 360).Even the simpelest RTS game C&C had to be dumbed down to be made playable on the 360.How will the 30 odd keys that i use in MMO's translate to a version that is ment to be played with a gamepad that has trhe odd 20 buttons for wich a couple are not even usable for actual gameplay?
I think upcomming MMO's designed for a console to cash in on a extra player base will gimp the genre.
Indeed. More exactly, a blind man that didn't even follow the genre to begin with.
Total War series: Shogun (2 is in the works), Medieval 1 & 2, Rome, Empire, Napoleon. This series has been going since 2000. Not to mention their expansion packs.
Hearts of Iron series: I've personally bought 2 and 3 and utilize various mods.
Civilization series: Been going since the mid 90s. Civ 4 has received numerous expansion packs and now Civ 5 is close to arrival!
Galactic Civlization series: 2 is outstanding still.
Sins of a Solar Empire: Well received and successful title. Great game.
Starcraft series: I loved the first one from 1998. I don't play SC2, but it is there and I do know it's popular. I don't know how the guy you replied to forgot all about this one, since this title is even plastered here on MMORPG.com
The RTS genre also calls the PC its true home.
Age of Empire series: Still going.
Command & Conquer series: That too.
Company of Heroes
Dawn of War series
On and on...
Then there's FPS's. Newest, biggest features of FPS have traditionally been on the the PC first. I remember a while back surprising some buddies who were into the FPS games on consoles on exactly what kind of things you can do on PC versions. I described to them features on an OLD title like BF2 and BF2142 and they were amazed. 64 players? Player vehicle crewmen as well as infantry? We've been doing that for years and years. I complained to console Modern Warfare 2 fanatics that it's impossible for me to get into the game due to a variety of reasons, but chief among them was capping the players to 18 per map. Modern Warefare 1 on the PC however is STILL outstanding.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)