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Anyone been following Palladium Vs Trion?

endersshadowendersshadow Member Posts: 296

 

So it looks like Trion completely ripped off Palladium. And not so much in title but in content. 

Another article, if your interested, http://www.livingdice.com/4490/trion-worlds-responds-to-the-palladium-books-rift-lawsuit-comes-out-swinging/comment-page-1/#comment-4922

 

Personally, it bothers me somewhat, but eh, business is business...even if its a bit shady. If the game is good, I'll still play.

 

I am hoping that Trion Settles and this is the last we hear of it.

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Comments

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908

    Expand on your accusation of them 'ripping off content' from the Rift tabletop RPG? I see nothing here to support that.

     

     

    My stance on this is that Kevin Siembieda has a history of being over litigious and uses these kinds of actions as publicity drives that invaribly bring more traffic and business to his site then the use of the of the common use word 'rift' by another company will ever cost him.

    Sembieda should be thanking Trion for this, not attacking them. Any confusion that might result from the use of the word (something I find surpising in a hobby market full of games using VERY similar words in their titles, such as 'dungeon', 'dragon', 'quest', and others) can only benefit Palladium.

    If Palladium can sue Trion for this successfully then WotC can justifiably sue every RPG using the word 'Dragon' in it's title since it's trade marking of the word as a key part of their own product's title. It's that ridiculous as a claim.

    Dragon Age: Origin is, for example, more of a direct rip off of Dungeons & Dragons, in title, content, and spirit, then R:PoT will ever be of Rift, yet no one says jack about that. Mainly because WotC don't base their entire self promotion strategy on these kinds of pathetic assertions I would guess.

     

    As a last note, Palladium games are just frikin awful. Badly written and badly designed and aimed at 13 year old boys who know no better. It seems the only time the company makes news these days is when they are attempting to sue someone for some use of a common word they seem to think they own. 'Has beens'? For sure. As for 'actively' attempting to develop a Rift MMO.. Yeah, right... They can only just raise the capitol to keep publishing their poor poor books as far as I can see, let alone something like that. It's just another desperate fantasist pipe dream from Palladium.

  • SwobyJSwobyJ Member Posts: 80

    I am neither a fanboy of one or the other (though attention is on Rift/Trion). Trion has a solid case. 

    Palladium can do what they want, since there is grounds here, but they won't win.

  • HokieHokie Member UncommonPosts: 1,063

    That was quite a bit of popcorn drama. I have to say they have a point on some of it.

    PnP games have faded and Palladium games have (in my opnion) always been kind of meh. I really dont see how Palladium has much of a case beside both having the words Rifts in the title.

    "I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."

  • NailzzzNailzzz Member UncommonPosts: 515

     Personal feelings about one company or the other are irrelevant in terms of likelyhood of legal success for either party. I find it disturbing that people here are hopeing for the downfall of a company over a lawsuit, not because of legal standing or who is in the right, but instead on popularity. Popularity is fleeting in most cases and eventually without legal protections, we may all be "voted off the island" at some point if we use popularity as our standard for right vs. wrong.

     Having reviewed the details of the case fileings that have been made public, It seems PB has a strong case. It does seem likley that the charges against Trion are undeniable and even admitted in there own filings. Seems that Trion's only chance at success is through throwing money at lawyers and keeping this matter in court till PB has exhausted there own legal funds. So far there strategy is baring fruit as the next time they will be in court will not be till some time into the next year.

     If Trion wins this case one way or the other, it will be a huge can of worms that will possibly affect alot of other IP's as well. You can look forward to seeing many of your own favorite IP's being co-opted by other companies/individuals who may not be as kind to the concepts you have enjoyed up to this point. And it may not stop at just IP's. This case may also serve to legitimize other current violations since law is established by citing case law as being precedent. If Trion wins there case, this would in fact set a new and contradictory precedent for future cases. It is for this reason that i find it difficult to believe any court will rule against PB claim of infringement. And for all of our sakes i hope they wont. If anyone can co-opt anything someone else creates for there own profit, then it will keep alot of good ideas we may all enjoy from ever seeing the light of day for fear of being taken advantage of with no legal recourse.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908

    Originally posted by Nailzzz

     Personal feelings about one company or the other are irrelevant in terms of likelyhood of legal success for either party. I find it disturbing that people here are hopeing for the downfall of a company over a lawsuit, not because of legal standing or who is in the right, but instead on popularity..

    who 'here' has said that at all? Who has called for any company's 'downfall'?

     Having reviewed the details of the case fileings that have been made public, It seems PB has a strong case...

    Until you can prove to me you can understand what people are saying in a simple thread I will hold judgement on your ability to digest legal documents, if thats ok.

     

     

  • DmyankeeDmyankee Member UncommonPosts: 135

    Last i read, the case was thrown out.

    image

    Artorus Giltanus - Ranger EQ1 Retired
    Arturien - 90 Deathknight WoW

  • AxeionAxeion Member UncommonPosts: 418

     

    Originally posted by Dmyankee

    Last i read, the case was thrown out.

     Nope. Now some trition suporters an people who dont like palladium have been posting misinformation .But um as pointed out here..

    http://www.livingdice.com/5124/trion-worlds-v-palladium-books-trial-date-set/


    The case goes before a jury on February 28, 2011 with a estimated length of 5-10 days. That said, mediation between the parties was on the table, so the court date is really meaningless if mediation produces a settlement

     

    "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." — Robert E. Howard, The Tower of the Elephant (1933)

  • AxeionAxeion Member UncommonPosts: 418

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by Nailzzz

     Personal feelings about one company or the other are irrelevant in terms of likelyhood of legal success for either party. I find it disturbing that people here are hopeing for the downfall of a company over a lawsuit, not because of legal standing or who is in the right, but instead on popularity..

    who 'here' has said that at all? Who has called for any company's 'downfall'?

     Having reviewed the details of the case fileings that have been made public, It seems PB has a strong case...

    Until you can prove to me you can understand what people are saying in a simple thread I will hold judgement on your ability to digest legal documents, if thats ok.

     

     

     Same could be said of your expert opion on what 13 year olds would like in rpgs?Till i see some legal or offical training from you on such if its ok with you ill hold judgment on your ability to judge rpgs by age as well as if they are "awful".

    By the way i own the modual your avatar is from.Cant recall its name atm .Thinking white plume mountian back cover.

    An as far as that hes sue crazy coment um not to my knowledge now people have had the nightspawn night bane thing backwards for a bit."

    Nightbane is a dark fantasy role-playing game and setting created by C.J. Carella and published in 1995 by Palladium Books. The game uses Palladium's megaversal system, which is also used by the multi-genre game Rifts and the horror game Beyond the Supernatural, among other games.

    Originally published under the title, Nightspawn, the game's name was changed after legal threats from the lawyers of Todd McFarlane, creator of the Spawn comic book.[1] from  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightbane

    See McFarlane threatned to them over the use of spawn in Nightspawn name so they changed it to Nightbane.Funny how Triton changed name of their mmo once already .Another reson this is a problem is because Palladium has been in talks for aRIFTS  mmorpg for a while now with difrent devlopers.As well as the Triton mmo on these boards geting called Rift(s) it will an has lead to confusion.

    "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." — Robert E. Howard, The Tower of the Elephant (1933)

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230

    I read in another thread that palladium trademarked the name Rift specifically for use as a computer game a long time ago.  If true then I dont see how they wouldnt have a case.

  • DmyankeeDmyankee Member UncommonPosts: 135

    I would have to agree, if Palladium trademarked Rift ... it looks difficult. Mis information the king of all confusion ...

     

    Looks like Trion will be paying Palladium to use the word Rifts even though Palladium trademarked RIFT this is funny.

    image

    Artorus Giltanus - Ranger EQ1 Retired
    Arturien - 90 Deathknight WoW

  • NailzzzNailzzz Member UncommonPosts: 515

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Expand on your accusation of them 'ripping off content' from the Rift tabletop RPG? I see nothing here to support that.

     

     

    My stance on this is that Kevin Siembieda has a history of being over litigious and uses these kinds of actions as publicity drives that invaribly bring more traffic and business to his site then the use of the of the common use word 'rift' by another company will ever cost him. Citation Needed*

    Sembieda should be thanking Trion for this, not attacking them. Any confusion that might result from the use of the word (something I find surpising in a hobby market full of games using VERY similar words in their titles, such as 'dungeon', 'dragon', 'quest', and others) can only benefit Palladium.

    If Palladium can sue Trion for this successfully then WotC can justifiably sue every RPG using the word 'Dragon' in it's title since it's trade marking of the word as a key part of their own product's title. It's that ridiculous as a claim.

    Dragon Age: Origin is, for example, more of a direct rip off of Dungeons & Dragons, in title, content, and spirit, then R:PoT will ever be of Rift, yet no one says jack about that. Mainly because WotC don't base their entire self promotion strategy on these kinds of pathetic assertions I would guess.

     

    As a last note, Palladium games are just frikin awful. Badly written and badly designed and aimed at 13 year old boys who know no better. It seems the only time the company makes news these days is when they are attempting to sue someone for some use of a common word they seem to think they own. 'Has beens'? For sure. As for 'actively' attempting to develop a Rift MMO.. Yeah, right... They can only just raise the capitol to keep publishing their poor poor books as far as I can see, let alone something like that. It's just another desperate fantasist pipe dream from Palladium.

          Your right. There is absolutely nothing anywhere in this post that would suggest favoritism of one company over another in a case where the stakes are clearly high for both. /sarcasm (in case you needed that spelled out for you as well).

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908

    Originally posted by Axeion

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by Nailzzz

     Personal feelings about one company or the other are irrelevant in terms of likelyhood of legal success for either party. I find it disturbing that people here are hopeing for the downfall of a company over a lawsuit, not because of legal standing or who is in the right, but instead on popularity..

    who 'here' has said that at all? Who has called for any company's 'downfall'?

     Having reviewed the details of the case fileings that have been made public, It seems PB has a strong case...

    Until you can prove to me you can understand what people are saying in a simple thread I will hold judgement on your ability to digest legal documents, if thats ok.

     

     

     Same could be said of your expert opion on what 13 year olds would like in rpgs?Till i see some legal or offical training from you on such if its ok with you ill hold judgment on your ability to judge rpgs by age as well as if they are "awful".

    By the way i own the modual your avatar is from.Cant recall its name atm .Thinking white plume mountian back cover.

    Unless your my friend, who cares what you own?

    I didnt say my opinion on RPGs was 'expert', I just gave it as that. The Rift ruleset is a traincrash, and has been for years. My opinion.

    Sorry if that hurt you.

    An as far as that hes sue crazy coment um not to my knowledge now people have had the nightspawn night bane thing backwards for a bit...

    Your only taking from one source. What about Siembedia sueing WotC and almost destroying them in their early days? What about the reported numerous cease and desist letters to fansites who dared to write about the game they (confusingly) love? His contradictory double attack on White Wolf magazine? You don't seem to have mentioned those.

     

  • endersshadowendersshadow Member Posts: 296

    The comments below that link I mentioned are interesting, some very insightful.

     

    One in particularl I liked,

    “A devastating magical eruption has tattered the veil between Telara and other planar dimensions. Perilous rifts occur when two planes intersect, allowing passage between different dimensions.

    Rift: Planes of Telara™ is a fantasy MMO role-playing game set in a dynamic world being torn apart by powerful rifts from other planes. No part of Telara is truly safe, as rifts between the planes unleash sudden invasions without notice.”





    So they havent ripped it off?

     

    I also find it telling that Trion doesnt even try to say there game is different. If someone claims you stole the idea, the first thing I would show is how its different. 

     

    What I dont understand, is why in the beginning they just didnt go to Paladium and offer them money. The only reason I can fathom them not doing so is because they thought it would it would be less money to go to court.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908

     weird.. double post due to mmorpg.com error

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908

    Originally posted by Nailzzz

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Expand on your accusation of them 'ripping off content' from the Rift tabletop RPG? I see nothing here to support that.

     

     

    My stance on this is that Kevin Siembieda has a history of being over litigious and uses these kinds of actions as publicity drives that invaribly bring more traffic and business to his site then the use of the of the common use word 'rift' by another company will ever cost him. Citation Needed*

    Sembieda should be thanking Trion for this, not attacking them. Any confusion that might result from the use of the word (something I find surpising in a hobby market full of games using VERY similar words in their titles, such as 'dungeon', 'dragon', 'quest', and others) can only benefit Palladium.

    If Palladium can sue Trion for this successfully then WotC can justifiably sue every RPG using the word 'Dragon' in it's title since it's trade marking of the word as a key part of their own product's title. It's that ridiculous as a claim.

    Dragon Age: Origin is, for example, more of a direct rip off of Dungeons & Dragons, in title, content, and spirit, then R:PoT will ever be of Rift, yet no one says jack about that. Mainly because WotC don't base their entire self promotion strategy on these kinds of pathetic assertions I would guess.

     

    As a last note, Palladium games are just frikin awful. Badly written and badly designed and aimed at 13 year old boys who know no better. It seems the only time the company makes news these days is when they are attempting to sue someone for some use of a common word they seem to think they own. 'Has beens'? For sure. As for 'actively' attempting to develop a Rift MMO.. Yeah, right... They can only just raise the capitol to keep publishing their poor poor books as far as I can see, let alone something like that. It's just another desperate fantasist pipe dream from Palladium.

          Your right. There is absolutely nothing anywhere in this post that would suggest favoritism of one company over another in a case where the stakes are clearly high for both. /sarcasm (in case you needed that spelled out for you as well).

     

    Yes, I am right, at no point did I wish for the 'downfall' (your melodramatic word) of Palladium books.

    My dislike of the ruleset and the way Palladium have done business in the past has nothing to do with my view on this matter. My post is obviously in two parts and I fully detailed why I saw this situation the way I do, irrespective of my other feelings.

    In case you needed it spelled out.

  • NailzzzNailzzz Member UncommonPosts: 515

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by Nailzzz

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Expand on your accusation of them 'ripping off content' from the Rift tabletop RPG? I see nothing here to support that.

     

     

    My stance on this is that Kevin Siembieda has a history of being over litigious and uses these kinds of actions as publicity drives that invaribly bring more traffic and business to his site then the use of the of the common use word 'rift' by another company will ever cost him. Citation Needed*

    Sembieda should be thanking Trion for this, not attacking them. Any confusion that might result from the use of the word (something I find surpising in a hobby market full of games using VERY similar words in their titles, such as 'dungeon', 'dragon', 'quest', and others) can only benefit Palladium.

    If Palladium can sue Trion for this successfully then WotC can justifiably sue every RPG using the word 'Dragon' in it's title since it's trade marking of the word as a key part of their own product's title. It's that ridiculous as a claim.

    Dragon Age: Origin is, for example, more of a direct rip off of Dungeons & Dragons, in title, content, and spirit, then R:PoT will ever be of Rift, yet no one says jack about that. Mainly because WotC don't base their entire self promotion strategy on these kinds of pathetic assertions I would guess.

     

    As a last note, Palladium games are just frikin awful. Badly written and badly designed and aimed at 13 year old boys who know no better. It seems the only time the company makes news these days is when they are attempting to sue someone for some use of a common word they seem to think they own. 'Has beens'? For sure. As for 'actively' attempting to develop a Rift MMO.. Yeah, right... They can only just raise the capitol to keep publishing their poor poor books as far as I can see, let alone something like that. It's just another desperate fantasist pipe dream from Palladium.

          Your right. There is absolutely nothing anywhere in this post that would suggest favoritism of one company over another in a case where the stakes are clearly high for both. /sarcasm (in case you needed that spelled out for you as well).

     

    Yes, I am right, at no point did I wish for the 'downfall' (your melodramatic word) of Palladium books.

    My dislike of the ruleset and the way Palladium have done business in the past has nothing to do with my view on this matter. My post is obviously in two parts and I fully detailed why I saw this situation the way I do, irrespective of my other feelings.

    In case you needed it spelled out.

          Its called  cause and effect. Its quite simple really. If PB loses this lawsuit, they may have little choice than to close there doors as there wouldnt be any way from that point on to maintain any creative control over there IP. And little guarentee that they would be able to continue to profit enough to maintain the company. There movie option would be closed as well, since Jerry Brockheimer would no longer have to keep them in the loop and paying for the option of making a Rifts movie when he could just make it anyway and change anything he wanted reguardless of whether it was anything similar to original Rifts or not. With more mainstream exposure of his Rifts movie, he would then be free to create an entirely new Rifts line of products ripping off Rifts at every turn and with PB shut out from there own IP and recieving no benefit from its creation from that point foward, it would be unable to sustain itself as a company.

         Other small companies will see this for the threat it is and may choose to pack it in as well since they have no legal protections on any innovation of concept they produce, and only large corporations with money will put anything into the mainstream from that point onward which will lead to homogenization of IP's lead entirely by marketing research, rather than imagination and vision.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908

    Originally posted by endersshadow

    The comments below that link I mentioned are interesting, some very insightful.

     

    One in particularl I liked,

    “A devastating magical eruption has tattered the veil between Telara and other planar dimensions. Perilous rifts occur when two planes intersect, allowing passage between different dimensions.

    Rift: Planes of Telara™ is a fantasy MMO role-playing game set in a dynamic world being torn apart by powerful rifts from other planes. No part of Telara is truly safe, as rifts between the planes unleash sudden invasions without notice.”



    So they havent ripped it off?

    No more then Palladium's Rifts has 100 or whatever other science fiction or fantasy works that have used the very same basic concept. The idea of rifts as dimensional tears that allow travel or invasion has been in use for decades in books, games and comics. The lore of R:PoT is really generic tbh and was used heavily before Palladium used it, in Feist's Riftwar works as an example;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Riftwar_Saga

    It's as feasible to sue someone for using the word 'dragon', 'dungeon', 'hero', or 'quest' as it is 'rift', but I have said all that already.

    Look, the confusion I really had is that you suggested the article and legal documents themselves suggested Trion had 'ripped off content', not that a few posters in the comments below had that opinion.

    It was pretty misleading as an OP.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908

    Originally posted by Nailzzz

     

          Its called  cause and effect. Its quite simple really. If PB loses this lawsuit, they may have little choice than to close there doors as there wouldnt be any way from that point on to maintain any creative control over there IP.  And little guarentee that they would be able to continue to profit enough to maintain the company.

    I do not agree at all. Nothing would change for them, except that they would pick up some extra footfall and, maybe if they like what is on offer enough, some extra business.

     There movie option would be closed as well, since Jerry Brockheimer would no longer have to keep them in the loop and paying for the option of making a Rifts movie when he could just make it anyway and change anything he wanted reguardless of whether it was anything similar to original Rifts or not. With more mainstream exposure of his Rifts movie, he would then be free to create an entirely new Rifts line of products ripping off Rifts at every turn and with PB shut out from there own IP and recieving no benefit from its creation from that point foward, it would be unable to sustain itself as a company.

    Again, this is just untrue.

    If, and thats a BIG 'if', Disney ever choose to pursue this movie and call it 'Rift' and use the distinctive assets of the IP (Juicers or other character types, the megaverse, the explicit portrayel of Rifts Earth and specific characters and races in published works, or whatever else) Palladium would be amply protected.

    The fact is though that R:PoT uses none of the distinctive content of that IP, just the notion of dimensional tears, which as I have pointed out already Palladium did not invent the concept of or own the sole rights to.

         Other small companies will see this for the threat it is and may choose to pack it in as well since they have no legal protections on any innovation of concept they produce, and only large corporations with money will put anything into the mainstream from that point onward which will lead to homogenization of IP's lead entirely by marketing research, rather than imagination and vision.

    No, not true, and simply a false extension that is again somewhat overly dramatic.

    As said before, any IP with a distinctive and original name (one that isnt a common word or been used in games/ comics/ books repeatedly before) that has distinctive elements of it's own is always going to be protected.

    Maybe Palladium, if they really had wanted to have a unique name for it's 'unsophisticated' (their word) audience to remain unconfused about they should have actually invented one?

  • endersshadowendersshadow Member Posts: 296

    Originally posted by vesavius

    Originally posted by endersshadow

    The comments below that link I mentioned are interesting, some very insightful.

     

    One in particularl I liked,

    “A devastating magical eruption has tattered the veil between Telara and other planar dimensions. Perilous rifts occur when two planes intersect, allowing passage between different dimensions.

    Rift: Planes of Telara™ is a fantasy MMO role-playing game set in a dynamic world being torn apart by powerful rifts from other planes. No part of Telara is truly safe, as rifts between the planes unleash sudden invasions without notice.”



    So they havent ripped it off?

    No more then Palladium's Rifts has 100 or whatever other science fiction or fantasy works that have used the very same basic concept. The idea of rifts as dimensional tears that allow travel or invasion has been in use for decades in books, games and comics. The lore of R:PoT is really generic tbh and was used heavily before Palladium used it, in Feist's Riftwar works as an example;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Riftwar_Saga

    It's as feasible to sue someone for using the word 'dragon', 'dungeon', 'hero', or 'quest' as it is 'rift', but I have said all that already.

    Look, the confusion I really had is that you suggested the article and legal documents themselves suggested Trion had 'ripped off content', not that a few posters in the comments below had that opinion.

    It was pretty misleading as an OP.

    Replying to comments in red, how was what I said misleading? Did I link to porn and tell you it was hello kitty?

    I am really having a WTF moment right now. Are you arguing semantics? What do you think the lawsuit is about?

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230

    Once a name has been trademarked for a specific use it is protected.  It doent matter if it is a word in common usage.  If the trademark was granted and recorded thats pretty much the end of the story.  

  • endersshadowendersshadow Member Posts: 296

    Originally posted by svann

    Once a name has been trademarked for a specific use it is protected.  It doent matter if it is a word in common usage.  If the trademark was granted and recorded thats pretty much the end of the story.  

    Good thing the game is named RIFT and not Rifts.

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230

    Originally posted by endersshadow

    Originally posted by svann

    Once a name has been trademarked for a specific use it is protected.  It doent matter if it is a word in common usage.  If the trademark was granted and recorded thats pretty much the end of the story.  

    Good thing the game is named RIFT and not Rifts.

    Doesnt make any difference.  Think you could market a soft drink called Cokes?

  • MarknMarkn Member UncommonPosts: 307

    Actually if you trademark rifts and someone uses the word rift you have no action against them letter of the law.  You did not trademark rift you trademarked rifts.   One more thing you cannot trademark common words.   All of you internet lawyers need to wake up and call a real one before you speak.   One more thing why is this a topic its stupid and who cares ?

  • endersshadowendersshadow Member Posts: 296

    Originally posted by svann

    Originally posted by endersshadow


    Originally posted by svann

    Once a name has been trademarked for a specific use it is protected.  It doent matter if it is a word in common usage.  If the trademark was granted and recorded thats pretty much the end of the story.  

    Good thing the game is named RIFT and not Rifts.

    Doesnt make any difference.  Think you could market a soft drink called Cokes?

    Coke is not a common word like Rift is.

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230

    Originally posted by Markn

    Actually if you trademark rifts and someone uses the word rift you have no action against them letter of the law.  You did not trademark rift you trademarked rifts.   One more thing you cannot trademark common words.  

    So are you claiming that the government did NOT issue them a trademark on the name Rift?  I dont have actual proof that they did, but I think it highly unlikely that they would have filed a claim that they have a trademark if none was ever issued.

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