I don't think SOE bought Vanguard to eliminate competition because there was no need. The game would have been closed down in months without SOE's intervention. Most likely it was to make a small profit and they realized it wouldn't have much return if they invested a lot of money into fixing it.
I've tried Vanguard again recently and it actually runs smoothly for me and I don't notice many bugs. The funny thing is, there is just something about the game that I eventually find boring. I don't know what it is, but I just don't care to log in any more. I was even grouping, doing all kinds of things that would normally keep me interested in a game, but just falls short for me.
I would rather see a new MMO created with some aspects from Vanguard, done properly from the start with time to release polished, than throw a bunch of money after an older failed game that many people have given multiple chances and still don't stay. Better to just start fresh.
My favorite game is daoc. I would love for it to be redone and all the crap Mythic did to it to be taken away, new engine, graphics overhaul, but when I think about that, it won't help population too much. It would be better to just come out with a sequel, or something heavily inspired by it, done right.
I don't think SOE bought Vanguard to eliminate competition because there was no need. The game would have been closed down in months without SOE's intervention. Most likely it was to make a small profit and they realized it wouldn't have much return if they invested a lot of money into fixing it.
Imagine if you will that some other company decided to get invovled before soe did, for whatever reasons they chose. Then imagine that vanguard had an extra 6-12 months development time, which would put it somewhere close to where it is today (team size was far larger, so more done in less time).
How do you think that possible scenario would affect the EQ/EQ2 subscriber base? I think vanguard had the potential to cut deep into soe subscriber numbers and for just a few million dollars soe could ensure that no one else could possibly come along and make that happen and soe still came out of it with many positive assests.
I would rather see a new MMO created with some aspects from Vanguard, done properly from the start with time to release polished, than throw a bunch of money after an older failed game that many people have given multiple chances and still don't stay. Better to just start fresh.
EverQuest Next.
You just know that SOE are going to rip the guts out of the systems that worked (or were at least interesting) and put them into the new game.
We are the life of this genre, and we are the consumer.
Fraid not fella, "the life" of this genre are all playing more successful games. You are the die hard fans of the genre, not that there is anything wrong with that, but you are a minority lad. MMO gamers speak with their wallets and their feet, and they have spokjen on Vanguard fairly conclusively.
We are customers, as well as creators. We are sponsors, as well as producers.
"... If you cut us, do we not winge about it endlessly on the forums?" ...we're just customers mate, that is all. You should really know that already playing SOE stuff. Going all Merchent of Venice on us ain't changing that fact.
Without us, this genre simply does exist. But I think we need to touch base again with what the MMO genre is about. In essence, the MMO genre is all about community.
No longer. Look at the number of soloists and solo friendly games coming out to get their cash. If it was about the community then half the games deemed successes right now would be shutting down. Also mayny people bring their community with them into MMOs these days (My old WoW guild will be trying SWTOR en masse, and like when we decended on STO..., step 1 - set up guild... step 2 - turn off global chat... step 3 - play.
It's not about the PVP, the ease of leveling. Nor the ease of obtaining gear.
... it's about having fun, that's all. The definition of "Fun" depends on the individual, but MMOs are no different from any other entertainment medium. There may be some "sense of achievement" and stuff but it comes down to enjoyment, which for most is a shiny new hat at the end of a raid or some PVP kills. Bonding with you're fellow man over a virtual pint is a minority thing.
Most of us who have come to like any of the harder MMO's and specifically Vanguard. Were raised on EverQuest, and ever since then we have sought after an MMO which gave us that same feeling of "home." Why did EQ offer this, when others simply fail over and over again? There are many reasons, and I am going to name the most vital - population.
What is an MMO without population? Does it really matter who owns the rights to the MMO? I'm afraid it truly doesn't, and you can continue to argue about this all you want, about SOE.
Of course it does, because your experience of playing is more than just the mechanics of the game, it's the customer support, the quality of the development team, the frequency of updates etc etc... all of which are controlled by the company running things.
But do you honestly believe they have no interest in the game? It's a corporation, and they simply can't afford to invest without reasonable promise, that it would be a wise investment.
Not really... SOE's marketing model is more based on the Station Pass than individual game subs. Simply having another game on the list of "you get all this for one monthly fee" get's people subscribing, the fact that that individual game may or may not be rubbish doesn't really come into it. Also adding new games to the collection when they are cheap to buy (as Vanguard was at the time) is a way of limiting cancellations over time, and keeping old customers thinking they are getting value and "new toys". I'm not saying they have no interest, but they have far less intrest than you might think.
Who is to blame for Vanguards failing potential? You can sit here and blame SOE all you want, but we're the ones who bailed on Vanguard and it's future success. We weren't patient, we didn't care.
You're right, we aren't patient. Not sure why you think we should be.
We were simply to concerned about our simple $15/month. We've become self centered,
Self Centered!? Jesus dude... we consumers, by the very nature of buying a product we are serving our self interest. MMOs are not some unique economic entity, requiring nurture and love, they're just computer games. If we were talking about some open source community gaming project I'd be right there with you, but we're not.I think you really need to start one... the Planeshift code is still kicking about somewhere... maybe you could start ewith that).
and because of our impatience and lack of effort. The game is merely fading away, as well as any reputation it once had.
Vangaurds reputation fading is a good thing... its got a god awful reputation.
However, those who do speak of it, can simply all agree that the potential isn't even being gently touched.
What can we do as MMO Gamers, to finally reach gaming bliss? Firstly, we'd have to organize. How do we do this? PROMOTION! We have the tools, power, and intelligence just as consumers. To help increase this games population by ourselves. Help me spread the word, this game isn't close to being dead. If anything, it's the only game with ANY potential to achieve that feeling in which EQ did for us many years ago. Secondly, we'd have to remember what's important in ourselves. The many days of play, and the many days of determination. To reach such levels as we did in EQ, or any other MMO. How can we be impatient now? Now that we're so lost on which game to choose in this genre. This genre simply can't afford to keep losing us to the "game that dare not be mentioned." The very essence and feeling of what was our home game is being lost, and taken from us. We're helping contribute by jumping MMO to MMO and not roughing it out with an MMO.
If you are an MMO player, and you are curious about Vanguard. It simply has everything beyond extensive PVP. If you are looking for PVP, then don't join. That's the brutal truth about vanguard. The game is about TEAM effort, and Community. Vanguard has a small community but their spirit is unbreakable.
Awww... bless... that's what the Matrix Online people said. I wonder what they are all playing these days (this particullar one is playing very little at the moment. Bring on TOR).
These are the types of gamers which make us love an MMO even more. Forget your past negative experiences, with vanguard or even SOE. The game needs population in order to achieve that potential, and this is where we failed Vanguard.
OK, beginning to verge on Stockholm Syndrome now... but I've come this far... reading on...
Forget Brad
Forget Sigil
Forget SOE
Forget the Poor Launch
Wake up and realize, this game is the closest thing we've ever had. To achieving that feeling of "home."
That would be with the exception of games other people are actually playing and calling home right now? You know... successful, well written, well supported games, with active forums, players, content updates, that sort of thing.
Spread the word.
I will be starting a friendly guild on Vanguard, with my expectations of trying to achieve 1,000 new subscribers within 3 months.
Best of luck. Max guild size in Vanguard is impressive, I'll give you that...
10,000 more subscribers within a year (or more).
...really impressive...
If the population spikes as I hope it does. I will open a Donation Pool. To help contribute financially to Vanguard's further development.
You'll do what!? Dude, seriously, what are you on.
Please! Try vanguard again, brave and tough the low population. Help me repopulate so we can change this negative about Vanguard into a positive ourselves. Help me repopulate it! We'll start our own community, and fix the low levels of population if we can bring them here ourselves.
We have to show SOE the game is truly worth it, to earn the future success and further development. Help me achieve this!
They don't care mate, they really don't. They've realised the money isn't in "wow killer" MMOs any more, it's in familly friendly casual games... that's all you're getting now. Lots of free realms, club penguins, facebook games and kiddy friendsly hub linked mini games... that's where all the money is.
Not wanting to piss on your parade with all this, but it's just nonsense. I get the fact you clearly love this game, but the world moved on, and Vanguard didn't even manage to reach the bus stop on time, let alone catch it. If your home is full of rot and wood worm and no one comes round any more becuase of the smell, it's time to buy a new home. A lick of paint and a magic tree air freshener in the window isn't going to change anything.
I played Vanguard for several years but found the population awful. I see where SOE has made EQ2 F2P. A good idea would be to change the pricing of this game and maybe add a F2P. SOE does not want to do anything to save this game and that is what is the worst part. I wish I could have afforded to keep this subscription because I really enjoyed the game. I hope VGSOH is around when I can finally afford the subcription again. I miss this game.
Well like every other VG-hopeful. They make a post and then thu simply fade away. Hasn't any of them noticed the trend? First Off The Isle, After Hours, now this. They realize that it really is just a waste of time for a consumer to do a corporation job. Oh well, next one up to give it a shot?
At least people have tried, and are trying, I don't really see why people need to come here and make fun of that, and says you are daft for trying, its impossible. Thats not a word, its an excuse for cowards and lazy people to not do something. Alright that was a bit too serious, but I think I think we should applaud people instead of putting them down. I was part of after hours, and that was fun, but in the end people was so divided it dwindled into nothing and I was an EU player and had timezone issues. I was also part of a vanguard guild from this forum and played for two months, I played nearly everyday and had so many good group runs exploring wast areas and dungeons I had never seen before. Alas I was moving so I didn't have Internet for a few months, and when I came back the guild website was down. A shame ofc, but what a blast I had.
At least people have tried, and are trying, I don't really see why people need to come here and make fun of that, and says you are daft for trying, its impossible. Thats not a word, its an excuse for cowards and lazy people to not do something. Alright that was a bit too serious, but I think I think we should applaud people instead of putting them down. I was part of after hours, and that was fun, but in the end people was so divided it dwindled into nothing and I was an EU player and had timezone issues. I was also part of a vanguard guild from this forum and played for two months, I played nearly everyday and had so many good group runs exploring wast areas and dungeons I had never seen before. Alas I was moving so I didn't have Internet for a few months, and when I came back the guild website was down. A shame ofc, but what a blast I had.
I'm not putting down their effort. I'm putting them down when they say we are the problem and not the main culprit. I said it before with After Hours and Off The Isle. Good in Spirit, but in the end you have to point the finger at the people who can get the ball rollin. Think about it, its 3 years since launch, the game is as established as its ever going to be, good and bad rep, right now mainly bad due to SOE leavign it out to die. The fact is this, and this is no offense to current players, but I do believe they are passing the wrong message when they recruit these newer players. I've said this before and many others have also, but they need to let them know that the game is what it is today and forevermore. It will never rebound, it will never get the support, but for what it is, it may be satisfying to you. I do know that some people tell the new folks all the sugercane and gumdrop stories and they end up being disappointed.
Considering that Vanguard was a better game by an order of magnitude in Beta 2, before Microsoft restaffed its games division, Sigil left in frustration and SOE came into the picture, I find it impossible to feel gratitude toward SOE for 'saving' it from the early launch that they decided was best for it.
Also, to Perdition_uk: are you here for MMOs as well, or not? You're ridiculing the OP by arguing that this genre is dead, that the world has 'moved on' to browser-based Flash games, but one would assume that by being here, you must be in the same sinking boat. Do you give a damn? Your last two paragraphs suggest that you're standing on the deck, yelling about how it deserves to sink and that the future of sea travel is boogie boards.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
Haseno I admire your determination and loyalty to vanguard what you fail to realize is that to many gamers (including me)
Vanguard was just a game...yes a game that many of us loved but "just a game"'
I was there since day 1 when the servers first opened and I was there for most of the merges which was a pretty bad time
to be playing because of all the doom and gloom. You say forget Sigil and forget Brad but how can you forget these companies
and people that sank this game....Brad for wasting away money on drugs instead of the game and for Sigil and it's executives and workers for letting this happen. The only saving grace here was SOE and I don't really like SOE but if it wasn't for them there wouldn't be a Vanguard. BUT, they have done a HORRIBLE job of upkeeping this game.
Yes this game is amazing.
NO, it's still not running smoothly...I ran it recently with these specs
Core I7 930 running at 3.6
NVidia GTX 250
and about 8 gigs of RAM
and still while crossing chunks I'm getting LAG
when I cross a chunk with my boat I get thrown off the boat and
sometimes I CTD......WHy???
because there is not enough money being spent on this game because SOE doesn't want to lose money they
want to make money....
Vanguard has about 1 year left I'm amazed it has lasted this long....with GW2 coming out and OLD Republic and Blizzards new
MMO also the Nails are being put in right now.....It's almost over Vanguard.
Also, to Perdition_uk: are you here for MMOs as well, or not? You're ridiculing the OP by arguing that this genre is dead, that the world has 'moved on' to browser-based Flash games, but one would assume that by being here, you must be in the same sinking boat. Do you give a damn? Your last two paragraphs suggest that you're standing on the deck, yelling about how it deserves to sink and that the future of sea travel is boogie boards.
Hmmm... light hearted it may have been, but ridiculing... hmmm maybe. I certainly disagree with pretty much everything the OP said I'll give you that hands down, but the tone of the response was for another reason... we'll get to that at the end (so skip to the end if you like).
My point was more Free Realms than Farmville as far as SOE are concerned. We're living in the Wii generation fella. It's all about "the kids" now, that's where the money is (at least via a convenient parental credit card). SOE know it, they ain't daft (they may be many things, but what you'll notice they are not, is making a loss).
MMOs used to be the realm of the young adult (and sometimes not so young adult). They were the only people to have a PC, a credit card, and the time or inclination to go online and slay the virtual dragon. Us early internet gamers with our vague memories of 1st Generation MMO glory are the dying breed, I certainly never said the genre was dying! Christ, considering the golden age of UO and the like which had about 250K subs at it's height, MMOs are flourishing these days beyond anyone's wildest expectations with (according to something I read this week but now can't find) about 30 Million people regularly playing MMOs every week.
... but they are not the same people... and the games that succeed now are not the same games.
In the old days, I remember logging into an online game for the first time, and being absolutely overawed by the fact that that guy who just ran past me was an actual person. The realisation of that made you want to take the time out to actually communicate, and to form a community at a social level. Most of the people you met were pen and paper role players, so yes, there was plenty of bonding over virtual pints I'm sure. You were sharing something really awesome just meeting them in a game.
But now?? The kids have grown up with the internet, text messaging, games consoles, entertainment on demand, everything laid out. They do not want and do not care that "we could do the show ourselves right here in this barn, all we need is IMAGINATION kids" (queue the song and dance number, and potentially Large purple T-rex / 8 foot yellow bird / Cliff Richard, depending on your age). It's the responsibility of the software companies to serve up the virtual movie with you and your mates as the heroes, and you'd better do it right first time. The days of imagination are if not gone, certainly a minority sport. I mean jesus... can you imagine putting your average modern MMO player into a MUD and saying "off you go, use your imagination"... shit dude, 3 minutes tops. Drop them in UO and they'll be bored shittless in 10 minutes. They're a demanding bunch (and I should say "we" because I'm pretty demanding too these days, most of us are I reckon... expectations are very high indeed).
Even brand new MMOs these days have a big sign at the end of the bed stating "Do not resuscitate". It's the nature of the market. If they fail, you can try get them to limp onwards via re-launches or free 2 play models, but the market is saturated with 100 other games just waiting to have their go at the same player base... the failing games are essentially screwed. The free 2 play option can work of course as we've seen with DDO and I suspect successfully to some extent again with LOTRO, but if you put both those games against Vanguard, then I suspect Vanguard's already even fairly screwed even if they play the F2P card. There is no point wheelling Vanguard into the ER, shouting "clear" and slamming down the paddles (whether it's via dubious motivation speaking, stiring rhetoric or charitable cash injection). Grandma's already mostly dead, and all the voltage in the world ain't bringing her back because she's physically just not up to the job. In the time it took them to get Vanguard to a playable level, the life had simply gone out of it.
... and the life went out of it because significantly better games came along while Vanguard was coughing and spluttering, and even if its die hard fans come jumping of the phonebox with their underpants on the outside of their tights, the world has moved on. There is nothing left to save.
I know, I know.. "You don't understand. It coulda had class. It coulda been a contender. It coulda been a somebody, instead of a bum"... maybe, but a bum it is. Vanguard threw the fight fella, and the kids don't care. Maybe they should, maybe they shouldn't, but they simply don't care. If they did this thread would be considerably longer, and the response considerably better.
... anyhow, so why the sarcy tone in my response, as I think it was that more than what I said annoyed you the most. Well, to be frank, it a fucking computer game owned by a multi-billion dollar Media Corporation with a turn over last year of about $12 Billion in its entertainment division alone. This gushing plea to save Vanguard is ridiculous and vaguely offensive to the real things that matter in this life. You know who "we let down"... the homeless guy in the street, the aids victim, the war widow, the veteran, the forgotten people of the world dude... that's who. We do NOT have to listen to a fucking guilt trip about a computer game run by a load of extremely wealthy shareholders, CEOs, and corporate suits, and how "we let it down". If you are going to put your time and effort into taking a group of people to task for letting a world down, then make it THIS world dude, not fucking Telon... and as for donating to SOE to keep it going... there are people dying in the world for fucks sake!
... ... ... and breath in ... ... ... and breath out... Phew... got a bit carried away there... us lefty european liberals and our under-cover communism eh! What are we like! Sheeeeesh.
I think in a nutshell what I'm saying is not infact anti MMO at all, just the opposite. The expectations of MMOs now (our expections) are much much higher now, and that's a good thing. However I am absolutely saying fuck Vanguard, go fly a kite, and thank whatever you happen to beleive in for another day, be it Jesus, Darwin or Steve Bloody Jobs. A better MMO will be along in no time to cheer us all up, and in the mean time there are more important things in the world to care about and direct your passion (and your money) towards changing. Rest easy in the knowledge that in the world of "what game should I play tonight", everything's going to be OK. Just you wait and see.
Yes, Vanguard will die, maybe that's an inevitable and deserved fate or a massive unjust tragedy, but MMOs? Gawd bless 'em Mary Poppins. They're going to be just fine.
... but what do I know... I'm just some bloke with an opinion. You guys knock yerselves out.
This is also why SOE told VG subscribers they were out of touch. Everything they develop from here out will generate more revenue than VG...because they were right all along. I don't like it any more than the rest of the "old-school" gamers, I just accept where the industry is headed. Enjoy what you have in VG, it'll be the last of it's kind (even though it never became the "vision").
... anyhow, so why the sarcy tone in my response, as I think it was that more than what I said annoyed you the most. Well, to be frank, it a fucking computer game owned by a multi-billion dollar Media Corporation with a turn over last year of about $12 Billion in its entertainment division alone. This gushing plea to save Vanguard is ridiculous and vaguely offensive to the real things that matter in this life. You know who "we let down"... the homeless guy in the street, the aids victim, the war widow, the veteran, the forgotten people of the world dude... that's who. We do NOT have to listen to a fucking guilt trip about a computer game run by a load of extremely wealthy shareholders, CEOs, and corporate suits, and how "we let it down". If you are going to put your time and effort into taking a group of people to task for letting a world down, then make it THIS world dude, not fucking Telon... and as for donating to SOE to keep it going... there are people dying in the world for fucks sake!
^^ This
It is preposterous and insulting that the OP would try to guilt people into "financially supporting" an already profitable company because somehow we, as the gamers, are at fault for the poor development and execution of their product. Meanwhile, if you have some money to throw around, hey, there are starving people in every country. Pick a reputable charity.
Look at all the lack of inspiration, motivation, and determination. Look at how the doom and gloom simply continues....
You guys have no heart, you don't try. You don't want to try because you feel that your small fee to play a game of such a large budget/expectation, is all you should have to pay. You can go to the bar, drink with friends. Spend double this amount, and yet you still act as if you the consumer, is paying a large fee to play the cheapest form of entertainment in the world.
The game world evolved, and so did the cost. All the way down to the very effort, and wallet. You can't expect to see a good game again, until your mindset changes on the entire picture.
As a business, yes it failed. It has no support...but only we can change that, and SOE would reinvest if we would reinvest our time/money as well.
How is that hard to understand? How is it that you cannot seem to grasp the concept that we have to change how we feel and think about it? We have to continue to try, or we'll keep getting the trash they keep producing for more years to come.
Originally posted by Haseno
Look at all the lack of inspiration, motivation, and determination. Look at how the doom and gloom simply continues....
This is the best description of SOE that I have seen.
Where's the heart? The spirit? The very same communities in which we grew up with in our early MMO years? Hmmm? Where? I'm sure as hell not seeing it here. Time and time again since DAoC's TOA Expansion (this era) the MMO world has been subject to failure, repeatedly. You still insist on blaming a company, or a rough launch.
You only have yourselves to blame, in all honesty. I started EQ on a Gateway PC, with no video card, 1gig of ram, and a crap processor. I played on this computer for 2 years, and the lag was horrid. The genre's standards didn't change. You guys did, your standards, your expectations.
You want the silver platter? You want to continue to keep jumping MMO to MMO hoping to find the one that excels over the trash that keeps being presented to us? You simply won't find it, until you lower your standards. The very game you ridicule, and doom with your own opinion. You ridicule my opinion, yet it's the best game out there...
Excuse me If you don't have the heart, or the courage to stand up for what you believe in. You can call yourself a realist, and I do acknowledge the most logical outcome. The most realistic answer however is still simply this, your standards are through the roof and you need to be brought down a peg or too.
The game isn't flawless, but it is simply the best.
Contribute to the game, help build a community, work (I know this is a strange word for some of you), or simply just keep wasting your dollars on the gravy-train games that keep getting produced and released.
SOE hasn't pulled the plug, and I am thankful.
I'm enjoying the greatness of the game as we speak, and I'm not on a forum complaining about a small "hitch" of lag, or a lack of content. Sadly, I have to take my time to try and convince you thick-headed people how great the game is. All because SOE now owns it, or the launch was horrid.
A game this great, can't be allowed to go to waste. It was a shame it has suffered such a failure, and this is the only thing you are actually contributing too.
If you want the game of all games, you have to look passed your own selfish $15.
... anyhow, so why the sarcy tone in my response, as I think it was that more than what I said annoyed you the most. Well, to be frank, it a fucking computer game owned by a multi-billion dollar Media Corporation with a turn over last year of about $12 Billion in its entertainment division alone. This gushing plea to save Vanguard is ridiculous and vaguely offensive to the real things that matter in this life. You know who "we let down"... the homeless guy in the street, the aids victim, the war widow, the veteran, the forgotten people of the world dude... that's who. We do NOT have to listen to a fucking guilt trip about a computer game run by a load of extremely wealthy shareholders, CEOs, and corporate suits, and how "we let it down". If you are going to put your time and effort into taking a group of people to task for letting a world down, then make it THIS world dude, not fucking Telon... and as for donating to SOE to keep it going... there are people dying in the world for fucks sake!
^^ This
It is preposterous and insulting that the OP would try to guilt people into "financially supporting" an already profitable company because somehow we, as the gamers, are at fault for the poor development and execution of their product. Meanwhile, if you have some money to throw around, hey, there are starving people in every country. Pick a reputable charity.
Laughable to say I was guilt tripping, FYI. Considering the fact that these very wealthy CEO's, Shareholders, and Corporate Suits. Aren't going to invest without population.
No population = No Game
Development would be going now, if it wasn't for the lack of population. They sure as hell didn't force you to cancel.
Let the starving die, maybe then it will teach people self control. Instead of expecting everyone else to take care of their responsibilities.
Great games sell themself. They don't need someone to come along three and a half years later to blame the customers for its failures. You are not the first person to come along to preach how we the players can save vanguard. Not only are you years late in your rally cry, but you are alienating the very people you are desperate for their support.
I'm not sure what type of motivational speaker you are in your real job, but so far you are doing nothing but hurl insults in some attempt to peer pressure people into following you. The more I read from you the more I think you are just someone looking to scam people out of their money.
Again I ask you, what is your plan and how will it save the game? Details please.
I would have to say that at this point in time, it is really hard to rebuild a playerbase once a game has a stigma attached to it. Even if the things that created that stigma are only a memory, it is hard for people to get past that. Those that want to hate it because of what it once was or who owns it now, will never allow themselves to enjoy it.
It's unfortunate that the culture of MMO gaming has changed so much over the years. I've even seen myself change over the years. I'm sure it has more to do with getting older and finding myself with less and less time to get immersed into a game. EverQuest was my first MMO and the only one I spent years playing. I wish I could recapture what I felt the first time I logged in, but I can't. I haven't tried Vanguard because my computer is ancient, but one day I will and maybe it will suprise me.
I don't know if any game will give me that feeling again, but I think everyone who knows what I'm talking about is thinking the same thing right now. All we can do is hope.
Where's the heart? The spirit? The very same communities in which we grew up with in our early MMO years? Hmmm? Where? I'm sure as hell not seeing it here. Time and time again since DAoC's TOA Expansion (this era) the MMO world has been subject to failure, repeatedly. You still insist on blaming a company, or a rough launch.
You only have yourselves to blame, in all honesty. I started EQ on a Gateway PC, with no video card, 1gig of ram, and a crap processor. I played on this computer for 2 years, and the lag was horrid. The genre's standards didn't change. You guys did, your standards, your expectations.
You want the silver platter? You want to continue to keep jumping MMO to MMO hoping to find the one that excels over the trash that keeps being presented to us? You simply won't find it, until you lower your standards. The very game you ridicule, and doom with your own opinion. You ridicule my opinion, yet it's the best game out there...
Excuse me If you don't have the heart, or the courage to stand up for what you believe in. You can call yourself a realist, and I do acknowledge the most logical outcome. The most realistic answer however is still simply this, your standards are through the roof and you need to be brought down a peg or too.
The game isn't flawless, but it is simply the best.
Contribute to the game, help build a community, work (I know this is a strange word for some of you), or simply just keep wasting your dollars on the gravy-train games that keep getting produced and released.
SOE hasn't pulled the plug, and I am thankful.
I'm enjoying the greatness of the game as we speak, and I'm not on a forum complaining about a small "hitch" of lag, or a lack of content. Sadly, I have to take my time to try and convince you thick-headed people how great the game is. All because SOE now owns it, or the launch was horrid.
A game this great, can't be allowed to go to waste. It was a shame it has suffered such a failure, and this is the only thing you are actually contributing too.
If you want the game of all games, you have to look passed your own selfish $15.
At what point will you be willing to accept the inevitable? When the pop hits 20k players? 5k players? 500 players? When they shut down the server and give you a free month of EQ2?
Comments
I don't think SOE bought Vanguard to eliminate competition because there was no need. The game would have been closed down in months without SOE's intervention. Most likely it was to make a small profit and they realized it wouldn't have much return if they invested a lot of money into fixing it.
I've tried Vanguard again recently and it actually runs smoothly for me and I don't notice many bugs. The funny thing is, there is just something about the game that I eventually find boring. I don't know what it is, but I just don't care to log in any more. I was even grouping, doing all kinds of things that would normally keep me interested in a game, but just falls short for me.
I would rather see a new MMO created with some aspects from Vanguard, done properly from the start with time to release polished, than throw a bunch of money after an older failed game that many people have given multiple chances and still don't stay. Better to just start fresh.
My favorite game is daoc. I would love for it to be redone and all the crap Mythic did to it to be taken away, new engine, graphics overhaul, but when I think about that, it won't help population too much. It would be better to just come out with a sequel, or something heavily inspired by it, done right.
Imagine if you will that some other company decided to get invovled before soe did, for whatever reasons they chose. Then imagine that vanguard had an extra 6-12 months development time, which would put it somewhere close to where it is today (team size was far larger, so more done in less time).
How do you think that possible scenario would affect the EQ/EQ2 subscriber base? I think vanguard had the potential to cut deep into soe subscriber numbers and for just a few million dollars soe could ensure that no one else could possibly come along and make that happen and soe still came out of it with many positive assests.
I bought this game at launch.
That ensured that they will never receive another dollar from me.
EverQuest Next.
You just know that SOE are going to rip the guts out of the systems that worked (or were at least interesting) and put them into the new game.
Yep, EQ Next.
Since they started development of EQNext in 2009 we can expect press releases in 2011 and anticipate a 2012 release date.
Artorus Giltanus - Ranger EQ1 Retired
Arturien - 90 Deathknight WoW
Ascension - EU Mature, Friendly, Laid Back SW:TOR Guild now recruiting.
Great reply Perdition. I usually don't like those play by play responses very much, but this one made me chuckle a bit.
I agree excellent reply.
Artorus Giltanus - Ranger EQ1 Retired
Arturien - 90 Deathknight WoW
I played Vanguard for several years but found the population awful. I see where SOE has made EQ2 F2P. A good idea would be to change the pricing of this game and maybe add a F2P. SOE does not want to do anything to save this game and that is what is the worst part. I wish I could have afforded to keep this subscription because I really enjoyed the game. I hope VGSOH is around when I can finally afford the subcription again. I miss this game.
At least people have tried, and are trying, I don't really see why people need to come here and make fun of that, and says you are daft for trying, its impossible. Thats not a word, its an excuse for cowards and lazy people to not do something. Alright that was a bit too serious, but I think I think we should applaud people instead of putting them down. I was part of after hours, and that was fun, but in the end people was so divided it dwindled into nothing and I was an EU player and had timezone issues. I was also part of a vanguard guild from this forum and played for two months, I played nearly everyday and had so many good group runs exploring wast areas and dungeons I had never seen before. Alas I was moving so I didn't have Internet for a few months, and when I came back the guild website was down. A shame ofc, but what a blast I had.
I'm not putting down their effort. I'm putting them down when they say we are the problem and not the main culprit. I said it before with After Hours and Off The Isle. Good in Spirit, but in the end you have to point the finger at the people who can get the ball rollin. Think about it, its 3 years since launch, the game is as established as its ever going to be, good and bad rep, right now mainly bad due to SOE leavign it out to die. The fact is this, and this is no offense to current players, but I do believe they are passing the wrong message when they recruit these newer players. I've said this before and many others have also, but they need to let them know that the game is what it is today and forevermore. It will never rebound, it will never get the support, but for what it is, it may be satisfying to you. I do know that some people tell the new folks all the sugercane and gumdrop stories and they end up being disappointed.
Considering that Vanguard was a better game by an order of magnitude in Beta 2, before Microsoft restaffed its games division, Sigil left in frustration and SOE came into the picture, I find it impossible to feel gratitude toward SOE for 'saving' it from the early launch that they decided was best for it.
Also, to Perdition_uk: are you here for MMOs as well, or not? You're ridiculing the OP by arguing that this genre is dead, that the world has 'moved on' to browser-based Flash games, but one would assume that by being here, you must be in the same sinking boat. Do you give a damn? Your last two paragraphs suggest that you're standing on the deck, yelling about how it deserves to sink and that the future of sea travel is boogie boards.
Haseno I admire your determination and loyalty to vanguard what you fail to realize is that to many gamers (including me)
Vanguard was just a game...yes a game that many of us loved but "just a game"'
I was there since day 1 when the servers first opened and I was there for most of the merges which was a pretty bad time
to be playing because of all the doom and gloom. You say forget Sigil and forget Brad but how can you forget these companies
and people that sank this game....Brad for wasting away money on drugs instead of the game and for Sigil and it's executives and workers for letting this happen. The only saving grace here was SOE and I don't really like SOE but if it wasn't for them there wouldn't be a Vanguard. BUT, they have done a HORRIBLE job of upkeeping this game.
Yes this game is amazing.
NO, it's still not running smoothly...I ran it recently with these specs
Core I7 930 running at 3.6
NVidia GTX 250
and about 8 gigs of RAM
and still while crossing chunks I'm getting LAG
when I cross a chunk with my boat I get thrown off the boat and
sometimes I CTD......WHy???
because there is not enough money being spent on this game because SOE doesn't want to lose money they
want to make money....
Vanguard has about 1 year left I'm amazed it has lasted this long....with GW2 coming out and OLD Republic and Blizzards new
MMO also the Nails are being put in right now.....It's almost over Vanguard.
Donation Pool? Did I read that right? You would donate money for SOE...?
Nah, no living soul could be so stupid. I must have misunderstood.
Hmmm... light hearted it may have been, but ridiculing... hmmm maybe. I certainly disagree with pretty much everything the OP said I'll give you that hands down, but the tone of the response was for another reason... we'll get to that at the end (so skip to the end if you like).
My point was more Free Realms than Farmville as far as SOE are concerned. We're living in the Wii generation fella. It's all about "the kids" now, that's where the money is (at least via a convenient parental credit card). SOE know it, they ain't daft (they may be many things, but what you'll notice they are not, is making a loss).
MMOs used to be the realm of the young adult (and sometimes not so young adult). They were the only people to have a PC, a credit card, and the time or inclination to go online and slay the virtual dragon. Us early internet gamers with our vague memories of 1st Generation MMO glory are the dying breed, I certainly never said the genre was dying! Christ, considering the golden age of UO and the like which had about 250K subs at it's height, MMOs are flourishing these days beyond anyone's wildest expectations with (according to something I read this week but now can't find) about 30 Million people regularly playing MMOs every week.
... but they are not the same people... and the games that succeed now are not the same games.
In the old days, I remember logging into an online game for the first time, and being absolutely overawed by the fact that that guy who just ran past me was an actual person. The realisation of that made you want to take the time out to actually communicate, and to form a community at a social level. Most of the people you met were pen and paper role players, so yes, there was plenty of bonding over virtual pints I'm sure. You were sharing something really awesome just meeting them in a game.
But now?? The kids have grown up with the internet, text messaging, games consoles, entertainment on demand, everything laid out. They do not want and do not care that "we could do the show ourselves right here in this barn, all we need is IMAGINATION kids" (queue the song and dance number, and potentially Large purple T-rex / 8 foot yellow bird / Cliff Richard, depending on your age). It's the responsibility of the software companies to serve up the virtual movie with you and your mates as the heroes, and you'd better do it right first time. The days of imagination are if not gone, certainly a minority sport. I mean jesus... can you imagine putting your average modern MMO player into a MUD and saying "off you go, use your imagination"... shit dude, 3 minutes tops. Drop them in UO and they'll be bored shittless in 10 minutes. They're a demanding bunch (and I should say "we" because I'm pretty demanding too these days, most of us are I reckon... expectations are very high indeed).
Even brand new MMOs these days have a big sign at the end of the bed stating "Do not resuscitate". It's the nature of the market. If they fail, you can try get them to limp onwards via re-launches or free 2 play models, but the market is saturated with 100 other games just waiting to have their go at the same player base... the failing games are essentially screwed. The free 2 play option can work of course as we've seen with DDO and I suspect successfully to some extent again with LOTRO, but if you put both those games against Vanguard, then I suspect Vanguard's already even fairly screwed even if they play the F2P card. There is no point wheelling Vanguard into the ER, shouting "clear" and slamming down the paddles (whether it's via dubious motivation speaking, stiring rhetoric or charitable cash injection). Grandma's already mostly dead, and all the voltage in the world ain't bringing her back because she's physically just not up to the job. In the time it took them to get Vanguard to a playable level, the life had simply gone out of it.
... and the life went out of it because significantly better games came along while Vanguard was coughing and spluttering, and even if its die hard fans come jumping of the phonebox with their underpants on the outside of their tights, the world has moved on. There is nothing left to save.
I know, I know.. "You don't understand. It coulda had class. It coulda been a contender. It coulda been a somebody, instead of a bum"... maybe, but a bum it is. Vanguard threw the fight fella, and the kids don't care. Maybe they should, maybe they shouldn't, but they simply don't care. If they did this thread would be considerably longer, and the response considerably better.
... anyhow, so why the sarcy tone in my response, as I think it was that more than what I said annoyed you the most. Well, to be frank, it a fucking computer game owned by a multi-billion dollar Media Corporation with a turn over last year of about $12 Billion in its entertainment division alone. This gushing plea to save Vanguard is ridiculous and vaguely offensive to the real things that matter in this life. You know who "we let down"... the homeless guy in the street, the aids victim, the war widow, the veteran, the forgotten people of the world dude... that's who. We do NOT have to listen to a fucking guilt trip about a computer game run by a load of extremely wealthy shareholders, CEOs, and corporate suits, and how "we let it down". If you are going to put your time and effort into taking a group of people to task for letting a world down, then make it THIS world dude, not fucking Telon... and as for donating to SOE to keep it going... there are people dying in the world for fucks sake!
... ... ... and breath in ... ... ... and breath out... Phew... got a bit carried away there... us lefty european liberals and our under-cover communism eh! What are we like! Sheeeeesh.
I think in a nutshell what I'm saying is not infact anti MMO at all, just the opposite. The expectations of MMOs now (our expections) are much much higher now, and that's a good thing. However I am absolutely saying fuck Vanguard, go fly a kite, and thank whatever you happen to beleive in for another day, be it Jesus, Darwin or Steve Bloody Jobs. A better MMO will be along in no time to cheer us all up, and in the mean time there are more important things in the world to care about and direct your passion (and your money) towards changing. Rest easy in the knowledge that in the world of "what game should I play tonight", everything's going to be OK. Just you wait and see.
Yes, Vanguard will die, maybe that's an inevitable and deserved fate or a massive unjust tragedy, but MMOs? Gawd bless 'em Mary Poppins. They're going to be just fine.
... but what do I know... I'm just some bloke with an opinion. You guys knock yerselves out.
Ascension - EU Mature, Friendly, Laid Back SW:TOR Guild now recruiting.
This is also why SOE told VG subscribers they were out of touch. Everything they develop from here out will generate more revenue than VG...because they were right all along. I don't like it any more than the rest of the "old-school" gamers, I just accept where the industry is headed. Enjoy what you have in VG, it'll be the last of it's kind (even though it never became the "vision").
^^ This
It is preposterous and insulting that the OP would try to guilt people into "financially supporting" an already profitable company because somehow we, as the gamers, are at fault for the poor development and execution of their product. Meanwhile, if you have some money to throw around, hey, there are starving people in every country. Pick a reputable charity.
Originally posted by Haseno
Look at all the lack of inspiration, motivation, and determination. Look at how the doom and gloom simply continues....
This is the best description of SOE that I have seen.
Where's the heart? The spirit? The very same communities in which we grew up with in our early MMO years? Hmmm? Where? I'm sure as hell not seeing it here. Time and time again since DAoC's TOA Expansion (this era) the MMO world has been subject to failure, repeatedly. You still insist on blaming a company, or a rough launch.
You only have yourselves to blame, in all honesty. I started EQ on a Gateway PC, with no video card, 1gig of ram, and a crap processor. I played on this computer for 2 years, and the lag was horrid. The genre's standards didn't change. You guys did, your standards, your expectations.
You want the silver platter? You want to continue to keep jumping MMO to MMO hoping to find the one that excels over the trash that keeps being presented to us? You simply won't find it, until you lower your standards. The very game you ridicule, and doom with your own opinion. You ridicule my opinion, yet it's the best game out there...
Excuse me If you don't have the heart, or the courage to stand up for what you believe in. You can call yourself a realist, and I do acknowledge the most logical outcome. The most realistic answer however is still simply this, your standards are through the roof and you need to be brought down a peg or too.
The game isn't flawless, but it is simply the best.
Contribute to the game, help build a community, work (I know this is a strange word for some of you), or simply just keep wasting your dollars on the gravy-train games that keep getting produced and released.
SOE hasn't pulled the plug, and I am thankful.
I'm enjoying the greatness of the game as we speak, and I'm not on a forum complaining about a small "hitch" of lag, or a lack of content. Sadly, I have to take my time to try and convince you thick-headed people how great the game is. All because SOE now owns it, or the launch was horrid.
A game this great, can't be allowed to go to waste. It was a shame it has suffered such a failure, and this is the only thing you are actually contributing too.
If you want the game of all games, you have to look passed your own selfish $15.
Laughable to say I was guilt tripping, FYI. Considering the fact that these very wealthy CEO's, Shareholders, and Corporate Suits. Aren't going to invest without population.
No population = No Game
Development would be going now, if it wasn't for the lack of population. They sure as hell didn't force you to cancel.
Let the starving die, maybe then it will teach people self control. Instead of expecting everyone else to take care of their responsibilities.
Great games sell themself. They don't need someone to come along three and a half years later to blame the customers for its failures. You are not the first person to come along to preach how we the players can save vanguard. Not only are you years late in your rally cry, but you are alienating the very people you are desperate for their support.
I'm not sure what type of motivational speaker you are in your real job, but so far you are doing nothing but hurl insults in some attempt to peer pressure people into following you. The more I read from you the more I think you are just someone looking to scam people out of their money.
Again I ask you, what is your plan and how will it save the game? Details please.
Vanguard is the singular reason i hate the word potential.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
I would have to say that at this point in time, it is really hard to rebuild a playerbase once a game has a stigma attached to it. Even if the things that created that stigma are only a memory, it is hard for people to get past that. Those that want to hate it because of what it once was or who owns it now, will never allow themselves to enjoy it.
It's unfortunate that the culture of MMO gaming has changed so much over the years. I've even seen myself change over the years. I'm sure it has more to do with getting older and finding myself with less and less time to get immersed into a game. EverQuest was my first MMO and the only one I spent years playing. I wish I could recapture what I felt the first time I logged in, but I can't. I haven't tried Vanguard because my computer is ancient, but one day I will and maybe it will suprise me.
I don't know if any game will give me that feeling again, but I think everyone who knows what I'm talking about is thinking the same thing right now. All we can do is hope.
At what point will you be willing to accept the inevitable? When the pop hits 20k players? 5k players? 500 players? When they shut down the server and give you a free month of EQ2?