How about changing the whole "f2p" term from something a little more honest. Since in order to actually play most so-called f2p games you end up have to pay for something. PAYING is NOT f2p in the truist sense of the term. If there is a reason to be AGAINST such a thing as a F2P Gamers Movement, it is becaue people are being lied to about what f2p actually is or does and this "movement" does nothing to change that.
The one that is being dishonnest about F2P games is you. The vast majority of free to play games do NOT require a payment whatsoever. Any enhancements to the game are completely optional.
If ANYONE for any reason is capable of spending REAL MONEY on something in one of the so-called f2p games then how is it FREE? It does not make a difference if someone can play without spending money. What makes it NOT be a f2p game is the fact that the games DO charge real money for something. That is NOT free to play. Not arguing if it is right or wrong other then the fact that using the term free to play is not ethical. Of course, when people hear that word "FREE" they are drawn to it like bears to a honeycomb. And just like the bears, if they want all the game has to offer, they eventually get stung.
Because it is completely optional. As long as it is optional, it is free to play. If a theme park offers free access to all rides but charges money for optional food and drinks, would they be dishonnest if they advertised: "free access to all rides"? Of course not.
Offering optional enhancements does not stop the game from being free to play. Your argument is utterly laughable and it's obvious you're grasping at straws to make free to play publishers seem dishonnest.
The only game with an actual real free to play version in my opinion is Anarchy Online. Which is kind of funny since the game is 10x better than most of the f2p trash that comes out.
Anarchy Online's model is good, but it evolved into its three tier system. I'm not sure how a company with the intent to mimic that model would go about it starting from scratch. And as you know, once you pay either the $5 or the $15 for expansions, your free account can never go back to being free (at least I assume it's still that way). Sure, if you decide to stop paying and want to play AO for free again, you can start over with another free account, but not being able to revert to free still annoys people for some reason, and confuses them. I never did understand why, it made sense to me. Trying to revert someone back and forth from free to paid at their whim would probably be difficult or impossible, and would definately be annoying. Take off 20 levels for starter, all the perks, all those nanos you learned but can't use now, and of course, your weapons and armor. Ugh.
I suppose Blizzard could mimic AOs model now, it has enough expansions, but then there's already outrage over twinks who never bought Lich King and who run around overgeared making a mess of the BGs. If you could level to 60 free, level to 80 for $5 bucks a month, and pay $15 a month for Cata + whatever comes next, the anti-twink tears would never stop flowing. Not that twinking in WoW is worthy of the name anyway, but still, no one likes getting one-shot in a BG.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
I actually really like LOTRO's model. Granted I really wish they would bring the price down on points, as I personally feel they are too much for what you get. HOWEVER, I think this kind of gaming should be high quality and retain high customer service. Too many F2P games are asian grinders and no matter how hard I try to get into them I just cannot.
I love the thought of being able to go a couple months of not playing w/out thinking 'Geez im wasting this subscription'. I also like the a' la carte idea of the whole model. Granted, anyone with a braincell will just pay 14.99 a month sub, but i'd love to see a compnay come out of the woodwork without the rediculous prices for points, and more options for picking and choosing the content you want.
This is just the beginning. In the next 5 years I would bet 5 gold that all studios, including Blizzard, will have a F2P model.
That is thing, I even don't say against different models, be so that dumbasses will play f2p (like in EQ2) in different servers.
But I don't tolerate cheating with wallet in same server. If there will come somea.holes with their big fat wallets of their fathers, and then jumping into game like "big-doers" even don't knowing basics of their class or skill, forgive me, I don't tolerate that.
That is like buying rights of doping use in Olympics, like buying medals for money. Ya say - me cheap, havn't enough buskc, maybe, maybe not - but I wanna challnge at equal skills and knowledge not wallet. See I will never can fight against Bahrein's sultan's wallet - he will forever beat me with dollars, but maybe not in game. That is game I wanna, not some kind of run "who have more bucks" - sorry if ya don't understand this. And don't start cash-shops are onöy for cosmetics - I havn't seen any f2p which isan't turned into Buy4Win cuz ya havn't so many cosmetic fags who will pay every day for new costume or color.
So, to make their profit they will put in shops B4W items, sooner or later, and design their games so, that on end-game ya can't do w/out buying expensive amounts of stuff.
Is English even your first language? It's really hard to read your already semi-nonsensical posts. Also, I would reply to what you said, but Gyrus already did it better.
But I don't tolerate cheating with wallet in same server. If there will come somea.holes with their big fat wallets of their fathers, and then jumping into game like "big-doers" even don't knowing basics of their class or skill, forgive me, I don't tolerate that.
...
So, to make their profit they will put in shops B4W items, sooner or later, and design their games so, that on end-game ya can't do w/out buying expensive amounts of stuff.
Okay, so you object to games where the only way to get the 'best' stuff or the high end stuff is through the shop.
Fair enough.
But you do know that not all F2P games are like that?
You seem to be stuck on thinking about an older model.
And in a game where PvP is less important (and not required at all) then how does other people's equipment make any difference to your game?
How other's equipment makes difference? - I answer: IF you are just casual player for few hrs per week and who never reach upper lvl end-game, then yea - it don't touch you. But if you take game more seriously, play more like I spent in EQ1 near 9000 hrs and reached one of server's top 3 guilds then things are different. Every class has their pre-requisites and needs tho guild just take ya application (like tanks having req-ed agro proc weapon, etc.)
And now if such conditions would be in f2p you could be sure for 120% that such kind equipment sits only in c-shops to put hardcore players in need to spend money. And as it seems not little as monthly p2p charge but times more.
Or how you explains wallet brothers stock announces that with f2p model they will get revenue 2-3 times more that earned turbine with p2p model? Do you wanna say they LIE to their stockholders too? That mr. wallets are big charity organization?
A new website has cropped up to give voice to free-to-play fans around the world. The goal of the Free To Play Gamers Movement is to bring players together to form a collective voice to bring better quality to the F2P movement. Other goals include bringing high quality games like World of Warcraft into the F2P market, revamping in game item shops that destroy balance and to look for ways to reduce grind.
Nowadays, a large number of games are advertised as free-to-play, getting all the hype but failing to deliver. A lot of them are nothing but glorified demos, asking players for money to continue playing. Aggressive marketing leads to a bad reputation to the free-to-play market, resulting in deluded and disappointed players. This is just one example of what needs to change to guarantee the future of the free to play model.
I actually find this OP disgusting, especially posted as it is as the voice of MMORPG.Com, and especially after being assured that this site has no agenda in pushing the so called 'F2P' model on behalf of the corperations that are flooding the game sites with so much 'incentive' to push this as the 'only unstoppable future' of gaming.
The use of words like 'movement' and 'revolution' are obviously used to present this as a positive change headed up by players, when in reality it is social engineering driven by the accountants of the corps involved to change the payment model to one that they make MORE money from for LESS investment.
That MORE profit can only come from one place, and thats YOU, the user. Once you wake up to that surely some serious questions have to be asked about who is really pushing this agenda and to what end.
Profit is good, no one begrudges that for a good well built game, but PROFITEERING isnt, and thats what the opinion forming and supposedly 'neutral' gaming sites are being employed to brainwash the market towards accepting.
The whole F2Pmovement site is obviously nothing more then an industry sponsored shill front.
When will MMORPG.Com start to represent the sub based model in the same 'enthusiastic' way they do the 'F2P' one?
You may want IMVU or Farmville, but I want real games.
How other's equipment makes difference? - I answer: IF ... you take game more seriously, ..... Every class has their pre-requisites ....
And now if such conditions would be in f2p you could be sure for 120% that such kind equipment sits only in c-shops to put hardcore players in need to spend money. And as it seems not little as monthly p2p charge but times more.
I really don't know what more I can tell you (aside from I wish I could take your '120%' bet) because you are wrong. You might be right in some cases - but in the case of DDO (as one example) you are wrong. Not just a bit wrong - but totally wrong (120% wrong you might say?)
In DDO you earn favor just by playing. If you were prepared to spend 9000 hours playing DDO you could earn a lot of favor.
These are the same Turbine Points you can buy (no difference) so earnt Turbine points can be used to buy whatever you like. I use mine to buy more "adventure packs" - some people use theirs to by hair die and magic weapons - each to their own I guess.
In fact some players in DDO even do Favor Farming; Link 1, Link 2
According to the posters there you can earn Favor to give Turbine points at a rate of about 50c/hour. So back to your example - if you were prepared to spend 9000 hours in game you could end up with about $4500 dollars worth of Turbine Points!
Even at a tenth of that rate - you could buy pretty much everthing in game and all you have spent is your time.
Or how you explains wallet brothers stock announces that with f2p model they will get revenue 2-3 times more that earned turbine with p2p model? Do you wanna say they LIE to their stockholders too? That mr. wallets are big charity organization?
Ugggh. It's about volume.
In case you haven't been keeping up with the news (which you clearly haven't) DDO had major issues with promotion and distribution on Atari's end. Atari more or less admitted this was true by allowing Turbine to take over a large part of that function (see here)
The problem was that players were not buying the P2P version of DDO. In many cases this was because it simply wasn't available to them.
Now marketers know that while there are people like me out there (who don't care about the best gear and are not in a big hurry to do everything in the first week) there are also people out there who simply want to win - at all costs (That is how games like Travian make money). Those are the people you are trying to catch. They don't have to spend money - but they want it all and they want it now.
With a P2P model many of those people might not even try your game. What you want is to get them to try it... get hooked on it... and start paying.
So the solution is that you offer the game for 'free'. That attracts players (everyone wants something for free, right? And the word spreads via viral marketing.) I was a classic case of that - have a sub to an MMO already and was not looking to buy another - but hey it was free!
That gets people in game.
So, if you know that about 20% of your audience is made up of people like that and you have 10000 players then you have about 2000 paying players. If you have 100000 players you have 20000 paying players.
Thats what F2P does.
But, for people who don't want to pay;
Either because they are like me - and simply don't mind if they never get to the 'top'
Or because they are angry at cash shop ripoffs like you
they don't have to pay. Not at all. They can play and 'earn' all the same stuff.
A player like you - prepared to spend 9000 hours in a game could certainly earn everything there is to earn in DDO. There are players who have done just that.
How other's equipment makes difference? - I answer: IF ... you take game more seriously, ..... Every class has their pre-requisites ....
And now if such conditions would be in f2p you could be sure for 120% that such kind equipment sits only in c-shops to put hardcore players in need to spend money. And as it seems not little as monthly p2p charge but times more.
I really don't know what more I can tell you (aside from I wish I could take your '120%' bet) because you are wrong. You might be right in some cases - but in the case of DDO (as one example) you are wrong. Not just a bit wrong - but totally wrong (120% wrong you might say?)
In DDO you earn favor just by playing. If you were prepared to spend 9000 hours playing DDO you could earn a lot of favor.
These are the same Turbine Points you can buy (no difference) so earnt Turbine points can be used to buy whatever you like. I use mine to buy more "adventure packs" - some people use theirs to by hair die and magic weapons - each to their own I guess.
In fact some players in DDO even do Favor Farming; Link 1, Link 2
According to the posters there you can earn Favor to give Turbine points at a rate of about 50c/hour. So back to your example - if you were prepared to spend 9000 hours in game you could end up with about $4500 dollars worth of Turbine Points!
Even at a tenth of that rate - you could buy pretty much everthing in game and all you have spent is your time.
Or how you explains wallet brothers stock announces that with f2p model they will get revenue 2-3 times more that earned turbine with p2p model? Do you wanna say they LIE to their stockholders too? That mr. wallets are big charity organization?
Ugggh. It's about volume.
In case you haven't been keeping up with the news (which you clearly haven't) DDO had major issues with promotion and distribution on Atari's end. Atari more or less admitted this was true by allowing Turbine to take over a large part of that function (see here)
The problem was that players were not buying the P2P version of DDO. In many cases this was because it simply wasn't available to them.
Now marketers know that while there are people like me out there (who don't care about the best gear and are not in a big hurry to do everything in the first week) there are also people out there who simply want to win - at all costs (That is how games like Travian make money). Those are the people you are trying to catch. They don't have to spend money - but they want it all and they want it now.
With a P2P model many of those people might not even try your game. What you want is to get them to try it... get hooked on it... and start paying.
So the solution is that you offer the game for 'free'. That attracts players (everyone wants something for free, right? And the word spreads via viral marketing.) I was a classic case of that - have a sub to an MMO already and was not looking to buy another - but hey it was free!
That gets people in game.
So, if you know that about 20% of your audience is made up of people like that and you have 10000 players then you have about 2000 paying players. If you have 100000 players you have 20000 paying players.
Thats what F2P does.
But, for people who don't want to pay;
Either because they are like me - and simply don't mind if they never get to the 'top'
Or because they are angry at cash shop ripoffs like you
they don't have to pay. Not at all. They can play and 'earn' all the same stuff.
A player like you - prepared to spend 9000 hours in a game could certainly earn everything there is to earn in DDO. There are players who have done just that.
I understand what ya wanna say. That as in many (esp asian) f2p-s ya can't go to top w/out paying, in DDO ya can earn those TPs with long grind. I saw my son tried to play it "free" but we had subs for EQ2 that time I say I don't give penny for it, grind if ya wanna, And after month DDO was thrown away and he still is angry for that free lie. To earn TPs to open next thing one must run old instances many hundred times, repeate and repeate, awful grind.
And again ya don't answered to cheating, I hate that, I never play with cheaters. But what is it buying for win as not cheat?
...To earn TPs to open next thing one must run old instances many hundred times, repeate and repeate, awful grind.
Well, you clearly didn't watch your son close enough. For a start, you don't have to re run old quests 'hundreds of times'. Favor in DDO doesn't work that way. You earn favour based on whether you run a quest on normal, hard or elite difficulty. If you solo you must run each quest on normal to gain access to hard, and hard to access elite difficulty. So that is three times per character max.
But in fact it's not that bad... because if you run the quest with a group you can all run the quest at the highest level available to anyone in the group. So, if there are five people that have never run the quest before and one who can open elite difficulty - you can all run elite. So with planning you can get all the possible favour by running each quest once or twice at most.
Once you have run a quest on elite you have earnt all the favor there is to earn - the only reason people repeat is for the loot and XP - or strangly enough because they enjoy it.
And again ya don't answered to cheating, I hate that, I never play with cheaters. But what is it buying for win as not cheat?
It's not cheating. In games where you can access the same gear by grind or by cash shop it becomes a case of economics related to opportunity cost. That is, what price do you put on your time? How much do you value winning a game as opposed to playing and enjoying it?
For example;
Let's say I want to boost my characters Intelligence by +1. I have several options;
In "Durks" - Zizoo does not always appear - and you may not get the loot drop if he does? Hit and miss and could potentially take lots of time for no result?
This takes the most time time - and the points you put into intelligence might be better spent somewhere else?
A sure thing and instant - but it costs money.
So the question becomes how much do you value your time?
If you are like me and you are playing the game for fun... and maybe you even like the quest? You might not mind runing "Durks" over and over until you get the drop. Who knows? You might get it first time!?
But, if you are someone who is just playing to 'win' you might say "I don't want to 'waste' my time trying to get that item. I value my time at more than $6.50 an hour and I figure it would take me at least that long to get that item." In that case - it is 'cheaper' for you to buy it.
Is that cheating? Cheating Whom?
That player missed content. Nothing in game says you have to play every quest and kill every boss. If I party with him and he has a 24 intelligence - it really doesn't matter to me if he has that thanks to Zizoo's Spangle, or a tome, or if he is using a potion that dropped in game or he brought in the store?
If you want to buy your stuff - good on you. I enjoy getting it in game.
Where's the cheating?
In a game where the store sells non-cosmetics that are not available in game I would agree with you - like PLUS accounts in Travian I would agree that is 'cheating' because a player cannot compete no matter what they do in game. But not all games are that badly designed.
I agree, though f2p means playing the game w/o having to pay a fee. buying the CS items is totally an Option, an for those who want to do that you Can, Yes there are items an stuff that would make the game funner, or better, an your character look cool, but hey thats life right. most things in CS are sold by other player im sure, it may cost alot in Game currency but hell by it being sold like that isnt that basiclly free too? i mean, jus save up some igc an bam you have CS item for free no? But that aside some games do need to make less of a grindfest.
Honestly I don't think I could support this. I mean the only good F2p games started out as p2p. Lotro, DDO, AO (froob), TCoS (gone). What quality games are there that started Out f2p?
Comments
The one that is being dishonnest about F2P games is you. The vast majority of free to play games do NOT require a payment whatsoever. Any enhancements to the game are completely optional.
If ANYONE for any reason is capable of spending REAL MONEY on something in one of the so-called f2p games then how is it FREE? It does not make a difference if someone can play without spending money. What makes it NOT be a f2p game is the fact that the games DO charge real money for something. That is NOT free to play. Not arguing if it is right or wrong other then the fact that using the term free to play is not ethical. Of course, when people hear that word "FREE" they are drawn to it like bears to a honeycomb. And just like the bears, if they want all the game has to offer, they eventually get stung.
Because it is completely optional. As long as it is optional, it is free to play. If a theme park offers free access to all rides but charges money for optional food and drinks, would they be dishonnest if they advertised: "free access to all rides"? Of course not.
Offering optional enhancements does not stop the game from being free to play. Your argument is utterly laughable and it's obvious you're grasping at straws to make free to play publishers seem dishonnest.
Anarchy Online's model is good, but it evolved into its three tier system. I'm not sure how a company with the intent to mimic that model would go about it starting from scratch. And as you know, once you pay either the $5 or the $15 for expansions, your free account can never go back to being free (at least I assume it's still that way). Sure, if you decide to stop paying and want to play AO for free again, you can start over with another free account, but not being able to revert to free still annoys people for some reason, and confuses them. I never did understand why, it made sense to me. Trying to revert someone back and forth from free to paid at their whim would probably be difficult or impossible, and would definately be annoying. Take off 20 levels for starter, all the perks, all those nanos you learned but can't use now, and of course, your weapons and armor. Ugh.
I suppose Blizzard could mimic AOs model now, it has enough expansions, but then there's already outrage over twinks who never bought Lich King and who run around overgeared making a mess of the BGs. If you could level to 60 free, level to 80 for $5 bucks a month, and pay $15 a month for Cata + whatever comes next, the anti-twink tears would never stop flowing. Not that twinking in WoW is worthy of the name anyway, but still, no one likes getting one-shot in a BG.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Is English even your first language? It's really hard to read your already semi-nonsensical posts. Also, I would reply to what you said, but Gyrus already did it better.
How other's equipment makes difference? - I answer: IF you are just casual player for few hrs per week and who never reach upper lvl end-game, then yea - it don't touch you. But if you take game more seriously, play more like I spent in EQ1 near 9000 hrs and reached one of server's top 3 guilds then things are different. Every class has their pre-requisites and needs tho guild just take ya application (like tanks having req-ed agro proc weapon, etc.)
And now if such conditions would be in f2p you could be sure for 120% that such kind equipment sits only in c-shops to put hardcore players in need to spend money. And as it seems not little as monthly p2p charge but times more.
Or how you explains wallet brothers stock announces that with f2p model they will get revenue 2-3 times more that earned turbine with p2p model? Do you wanna say they LIE to their stockholders too? That mr. wallets are big charity organization?
I still prefer the guildwars model.
I actually find this OP disgusting, especially posted as it is as the voice of MMORPG.Com, and especially after being assured that this site has no agenda in pushing the so called 'F2P' model on behalf of the corperations that are flooding the game sites with so much 'incentive' to push this as the 'only unstoppable future' of gaming.
The use of words like 'movement' and 'revolution' are obviously used to present this as a positive change headed up by players, when in reality it is social engineering driven by the accountants of the corps involved to change the payment model to one that they make MORE money from for LESS investment.
That MORE profit can only come from one place, and thats YOU, the user. Once you wake up to that surely some serious questions have to be asked about who is really pushing this agenda and to what end.
Profit is good, no one begrudges that for a good well built game, but PROFITEERING isnt, and thats what the opinion forming and supposedly 'neutral' gaming sites are being employed to brainwash the market towards accepting.
The whole F2Pmovement site is obviously nothing more then an industry sponsored shill front.
When will MMORPG.Com start to represent the sub based model in the same 'enthusiastic' way they do the 'F2P' one?
You may want IMVU or Farmville, but I want real games.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I understand what ya wanna say. That as in many (esp asian) f2p-s ya can't go to top w/out paying, in DDO ya can earn those TPs with long grind. I saw my son tried to play it "free" but we had subs for EQ2 that time I say I don't give penny for it, grind if ya wanna, And after month DDO was thrown away and he still is angry for that free lie. To earn TPs to open next thing one must run old instances many hundred times, repeate and repeate, awful grind.
And again ya don't answered to cheating, I hate that, I never play with cheaters. But what is it buying for win as not cheat?
Has anyone posting in this thread actually read and comprehended the OP?
Several people did (including myself) and two points came out of it;
It's hard to have a consumer voice when you don't pay for a product.
Although there is no payment - perhaps players offer 'value' to an MMO just by being there?
But anyway, back to the discussion at hand...
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I agree, though f2p means playing the game w/o having to pay a fee. buying the CS items is totally an Option, an for those who want to do that you Can, Yes there are items an stuff that would make the game funner, or better, an your character look cool, but hey thats life right. most things in CS are sold by other player im sure, it may cost alot in Game currency but hell by it being sold like that isnt that basiclly free too? i mean, jus save up some igc an bam you have CS item for free no? But that aside some games do need to make less of a grindfest.
Dreams are the minds Reality
The day WoW becomes F2P is the day I quit playing MMORPGS. Not because I like WoW but because I hate F2P.
If WoW does it then suddenly it becomes a sucessful business tactic and we will never see a quality game again.
Keep your FTP scam. I will never support it. I am sick of this effort to force it on us in the states.
Just say NO to "pay to win"
I'm very happy that you and others like you will 'aviod' my f2p games like 'plauge'.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP