I don't get why people are so much against Story in MMO's.
Do they want the same old bland quest system to never change?
I thought that most people like me have grown weary and tired of the same old way that quests have been done now for years and years in MMO's.
Then why would people be against gameplay mechanics that make questing more meaningful and entertaining again? What's so good about the current stale quest gameplay in most MMO's, that it should be preferred above deepened storytelling?
Are you REALLY that satisfied with the way that quest mechanics are now?
There was an article not long ago, http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/367/feature/4339/Hands-On-With-the-Sith-Warrior.html, where the redactor reviewed his experience as a low-level Sith Warrior (?). That experience wasn't much more than the obligate: 1. go kill 5 rats -> 2. go kill 5 huge rats -> 3. go kill a rat boss. Sure the NPCs told him everything in nice voiced dialogue but that does not change the fact it was just another "killer quest" you find in every other MMO out there. I don't think the way quests are aquired changes much
Maybe they could just prepare some more interesting quest for the presentation )
Isn't that the one most of us called bogus because he skipped through most if not all of the dialogue? Yeah...
Well like it or not, it will happen by many people. I don't understand it either, but I choose not to give a damn, as long as they don't effect my gameplay I have no problems playing beside them.
Of course you still will do the same quest tasks, that hasn't changed much since EQ.
It doesn't mean that I still would like to quests as they were presented in EQ.
The way I see it it went like this:
- around EQ, your basic form of (level) progression was via quests and mob grinding.
Although fun for a while, most people didn't like to have to continuously do mobgrinding to level. If it was the core successful progression mechanics, the mobgrinding, then it would have been dominant in MMO's still, and Asian MMO's would have been a lot more popular and successful.
- instead people favored progression via questing, hence MMO's like EQ2 and WoW followed with an abundance of quests.
This resulted in the quest grinding for progression.
It was successful, and popular, but after years and years also this progression mechanism starts to feel bland and less fun.
In the natural evolution of MMO gameplay mechanics, it's time for a change, people are openminded towards change.
So, my question: people who so much hate or dislike Story in MMO's, are they that happy and satisfied with the current same old quest mechanics? Or do they want to go back even further, and prefer the sandboxy mob grinding to progression kind of mechanics?
What I'm wondering, do these people prefer things to stay the same when it comes to questing, above having story mechanics added to the way of questing?
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
hahaha! so much for the roleplaying! "you can't do it right, so we are not going to let you"
bravo
"P.S.: we'll take your money anyway"
Its worse than that. "You can't do it right, so we're going to do it for you"
I don't think they are saying "You can't do it right." They are saying it would take a lot of extra resources in an already expensive game. I think another part of it is that the population as a whole would NOT play Wookiees and the like right. How many players do you actually think would honor the concept of a life debt? I think we can honestly say not many. Having Wookiees as a PC race would mean diminishing them and making them less wookieee-like (to say nothing of the fact they can't use basic). IMHO, that sort of thing in an MMO environment should be left to the devs so that races FEEL right and the game is more immersive.
Everything players do diminish the IP. By your argument no one should play Jedi.
The game is designed to handle such things with Jedi (for instance if you are an evil Jedi than your story choices will reflect that and the game will react to that). They don't have infinite resources however, so implementing races with more unique cultures is something out of their reach. (For some there's also the fact that some races don't speak basic).
This is exaclty what people are failing to understand. They wanted a story driven game, and it has come with a cost. They focused alot on story because they want the whole game to be fun and engaging. Therefore they cannot bring you anything and everything , where as a game like swg can try to please everyone, yet fail at the same time. This is the kind of game they wanted, so they are probably running out of funds after spending150-300 mill or whatever it was on this game, and with alot of the reactions from the ungrateful MMO fan base , (well the people on this forum and maybe a few others anyhow) they are probably hard pressed to get anymore funding. I doubt EA is gonna want to dump anymore money into the game, at least until they see whether or not their investment was worth while.
People complaining about the races in this game amaze me. GW2 /FF14/AION/ AOC/ even WOW, these are all games with very limited race options, and nobody is crying about that and they don't even have a vast story line like this game, where extra races may affect it. I think the races revealed so far are plentiful for an MMO, people just want to find things to nit pick about, and let's be honest, it is just hurting the industry.
Big companies are gonna decide it is not worth it to invest tons of money into a dev team anymore to bring you an awesome game. Talk about taking risks and innovating. I think they are taking a huge risk with all this millions and millions of dollars and a heavy focus on story. Instead of taking the SWG route or something and having a low budget while trying to please everyone.
hahaha! so much for the roleplaying! "you can't do it right, so we are not going to let you"
bravo
"P.S.: we'll take your money anyway"
Its worse than that. "You can't do it right, so we're going to do it for you"
I don't think they are saying "You can't do it right." They are saying it would take a lot of extra resources in an already expensive game. I think another part of it is that the population as a whole would NOT play Wookiees and the like right. How many players do you actually think would honor the concept of a life debt? I think we can honestly say not many. Having Wookiees as a PC race would mean diminishing them and making them less wookieee-like (to say nothing of the fact they can't use basic). IMHO, that sort of thing in an MMO environment should be left to the devs so that races FEEL right and the game is more immersive.
Everything players do diminish the IP. By your argument no one should play Jedi.
The game is designed to handle such things with Jedi (for instance if you are an evil Jedi than your story choices will reflect that and the game will react to that). They don't have infinite resources however, so implementing races with more unique cultures is something out of their reach. (For some there's also the fact that some races don't speak basic).
This is exaclty what people are failing to understand. They wanted a story driven game, and it has come with a cost. They focused alot on story because they want the whole game to be fun and engaging. Therefore they cannot bring you anything and everything , where as a game like swg can try to please everyone, yet fail at the same time. This is the kind of game they wanted, so they are probably running out of funds after spending150-300 mill or whatever it was on this game, and with alot of the reactions from the ungrateful MMO fan base , (well the people on this forum and maybe a few others anyhow) they are probably hard pressed to get anymore funding. I doubt EA is gonna want to dump anymore money into the game, at least until they see whether or not their investment was worth while.
People complaining about the races in this game amaze me. GW2 /FF14/AION/ AOC/ even WOW, these are all games with very limited race options, and nobody is crying about that and they don't even have a vast story line like this game, where extra races may affect it. I think the races revealed so far are plentiful for an MMO, people just want to find things to nit pick about, and let's be honest, it is just hurting the industry.
Big companies are gonna decide it is not worth it to invest tons of money into a dev team anymore to bring you an awesome game. Talk about taking risks and innovating. I think they are taking a huge risk with all this millions and millions of dollars and a heavy focus on story. Instead of taking the SWG route or something and having a low budget while trying to please everyone.
This was a great post, but the highlighted isn't going to help here. People are still asking for SWG pre-cu back, it doesn't seem people want a good dev team or awesome game. Just broken outdated crap.
Ultimately, in a game like this Bioware comes up against the same problems all designers of MMOs do - that there aren't many variations on the basic missions: kill, fetch, escort, travel to or escort. Adding voice-over delivered story may sugercoat these missions but they may also slow them down. It will be interesting to see how they overcome the inherent challenges of mission repetition.
Indeed. I think the biggest problem could be the VO and questing combination, not that it's a bad thing, I'm looking forward to it. I'm interested in how fast they'll be able to push content, do VO and build a good story around it. Lots of MMO players fly through content, and those types will skip all VO and pay little attention to story. I'm pretty sure they've thought about this, I just hope they're prepared for it.
Afterall, once all that VO and story is stripped away, it's nothing more then your average, kill, travel, fetch quests. So I'm hoping the gameplay is overwhelming while leaving room for a decent amount of VO and story.
You have to fight enemies in the middle of your story scenes sometimes. Well, you have a choice to fight them or let them live, and sometimes it is rewarding to let them live because they could become a new companion, or it may be rewarding to fight them, for whatever reason, or even kill them...
There are a few things to stop people from just going on without listening to the story, and I wouldn't understand why anyone would want to skip most of the story, at least the main part. What will really piss me off if there is some player grouped with me trying to rush me through my story, like I had when I was watching a cut scene while playing AION.
You have to fight enemies in the middle of your story scenes sometimes. Well, you have a choice to fight them or let them live, and sometimes it is rewarding to let them live because they could become a new companion, or it may be rewarding to fight them, for whatever reason, or even kill them...
Same thing as KoTOR. I've seen this in ToR. Imperial Agent in a cantina, trying to persuade a Zabrak she is somebody else, ends up angering him, she uses a knife to kill him.
There are a few things to stop people from just going on without listening to the story, and I wouldn't understand why anyone would want to skip most of the story, at least the main part. What will really piss me off if there is some player grouped with me trying to rush me through my story, like I had when I was watching a cut scene while playing AION.
It happens.
Anyways, to what I was saying. What I'm curious about can't be answered at this time. Nobody is that deep into the game to share the information. Basically, my concern is content, hopefully they have a lot of it. If they're going for mass appeal they're gonna need plenty for those that choose to skip story. In the end, their complaining CAN effect your experience.
You have to fight enemies in the middle of your story scenes sometimes. Well, you have a choice to fight them or let them live, and sometimes it is rewarding to let them live because they could become a new companion, or it may be rewarding to fight them, for whatever reason, or even kill them...
Same thing as KoTOR. I've seen this in ToR. Imperial Agent in a cantina, trying to persuade a Zabrak she is somebody else, ends up angering him, she uses a knife to kill him.
There are a few things to stop people from just going on without listening to the story, and I wouldn't understand why anyone would want to skip most of the story, at least the main part. What will really piss me off if there is some player grouped with me trying to rush me through my story, like I had when I was watching a cut scene while playing AION.
It happens.
Anyways, to what I was saying. What I'm curious about can't be answered at this time. Nobody is that deep into the game to share the information. Basically, my concern is content, hopefully they have a lot of it. If they're going for mass appeal they're gonna need plenty for those that choose to skip story. In the end, their complaining CAN effect your experience.
Oh yea, i'm pretty sure I have an idea of what scene you are talking about. As far as I know , nobody outside of maybe the dev team and some people working for EA/LA/BW have had an opportunity to experience anything past level 7 content, maybe the 3 guys that got to do that group scene with the mon cal trooper...
Just have to wait and see when the game comes out or there is a more free/open beta testing phase. I am sure it will have plenty of content.
This was a great post, but the highlighted isn't going to help here. People are still asking for SWG pre-cu back, it doesn't seem people want a good dev team or awesome game. Just broken outdated crap.
Yeah uh, when people ask for SWG pre-CU back, they're asking for the game in it's true concept to be brought back. They still want the bugs and major balance issues dealt with, but they want the core game where you choose your own path and can mix skills from different trees to make your own class. And of course, the best damn crafting system of any MMO to date.
They do want a good dev team, and it's specifically that they do want an awsome game, which is exactly why they want pre-CU back, with it's bug and balance issues fixed... not yet another themepark like every other half-baked hand holder MMO out there today.
Yeah uh, when people ask for SWG pre-CU back, they're asking for the game in it's true concept to be brought back. They still want the bugs and major balance issues dealt with, but they want the core game where you choose your own path and can mix skills from different trees to make your own class. And of course, the best damn crafting system of any MMO to date.
They do want a good dev team, and it's specifically that they do want an awsome game, which is exactly why they want pre-CU back, with it's bug and balance issues fixed... not yet another themepark like every other half-baked hand holder MMO out there today.
Yeah, so, what you're actually saying is that the people who want SWG back - and who wanted SW:TOR to be a SWG2 - are people who like sandbox style MMO's, and who hate/dislike themepark MMO's.
Although I'm sure that that group of people was also large and that they had a blast in SWG pre-CU, it wasn't that impressive overall as you might think: SWG had before the NGE only slightly more than 200k subs, even more, they were bleeding a disturbing 10k subs per month.
Suffice to say that Lucas Arts wasn't impressed with it either, and you know, they're right: 200k subs for an IP as Star Wars and even more, a decreasing trend of 10k subs per month is far from impressive.
SOE had their shot, the Star Wars world as it was constructed in SWG clearly didn't work out, even if a number of gamers liked it.
It's nothing but fair to see if Bioware with another design philosophy can't do better. Maybe you might not like it, but the themepark model has proven to be more attractive and popular among MMO gamers than the sandbox model.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Yeah uh, when people ask for SWG pre-CU back, they're asking for the game in it's true concept to be brought back. They still want the bugs and major balance issues dealt with, but they want the core game where you choose your own path and can mix skills from different trees to make your own class. And of course, the best damn crafting system of any MMO to date.
They do want a good dev team, and it's specifically that they do want an awsome game, which is exactly why they want pre-CU back, with it's bug and balance issues fixed... not yet another themepark like every other half-baked hand holder MMO out there today.
Yeah, so, what you're actually saying is that the people who want SWG back - and who wanted SW:TOR to be a SWG2 - are people who like sandbox style MMO's, and who hate/dislike themepark MMO's.
Although I'm sure that that group of people was also large and that they had a blast in SWG pre-CU, it wasn't that impressive overall as you might think: SWG had before the NGE only slightly more than 200k subs, even more, they were bleeding a disturbing 10k subs per month.
Suffice to say that Lucas Arts wasn't impressed with it either, and you know, they're right: 200k subs for an IP as Star Wars and even more, a decreasing trend of 10k subs per month is far from impressive.
SOE had their shot, the Star Wars world as it was constructed in SWG clearly didn't work out, even if a number of gamers liked it.
It's nothing but fair to see if Bioware with another design philosophy can't do better. Maybe you might not like it, but the themepark model has proven to be more attractive and popular among MMO gamers than the sandbox model.
I'm not too sure if star wars fans liked that game, or if it was a game for sandbox fans... Didn't seem very star warsy to me, though.
I didn't like it. Space was fun for awhile, the pvp was pretty fun. But over all the game was garbage. That's just my opinion.
Yeah, it's funny to see how SW:TOR opponents complain how 'not Star Wars' SW:TOR is and that SWG had a far better 'Star Wars feel', while glossing over things like canon breakers as a lot of Jedi roaming around in a time period that should have only the ones in the movie.
Basically, SW:TOR is more going for the 'Star Wars look & feel' of the movies, while SWG didn't come close to the Star Wars movies, it was more a sandbox type scifi MMO that happened to be in the Star Wars universe.
It was still nice of course: but SWTOR will be closer to the SW Expanded Universe lore and closer to the Star Wars vibe from the movies. I think that real Star Wars fans can appreciate that, people who can't and who prefer a SWG(2) experience instead are less Star Wars fans and more people who're looking for a SWG sandbox experience.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
SWG is not SW:TOR we all should already know this, I enjoy SWG came back just this week to play it again, i've also already preordered SW:TOR for myself and wife they are two completely different games.
I am personally pretty happy with what Daniel said and it makes sense, 99% of the people i've seen roleplaying dragons, aliens, mechanoids etc do so very very badly in fact I only ever saw one droid roleplayed well and that was in champions online, mostly people just asign human emotions, human ideals even human ethics, morals and religion to creatures that just are not.
Some very few can make that leap, can think outside the box and maybe maybe could create a believable "freak" for something like SW:TOR but it really isn't viable for a company to invest the time and effort into it.
Lets face it 99% of mmo's out there atm do not deserve the RPG, they just stick it on there to try and grab an audience, Bioware is an excellent company who has made some of the best emotion driven games out there, that moment in mass effect when you haveto choose to loose Ashley or kaiden I hadto actually pause the game and take the dog for a walk to decide who I was going to send to there deaths..
We have had sandbox mmo's etc but SW:ToR is different its a story driven game something me and my friends have been waiting for since kotor, something mmo's have never touched, yes you can go out with friends etc but you can never get the storyline or emotional connection that you can in a good rpg single player.
yes wow/swg/eq2 had wierd races but can you really say they also had engaging storylines that recognised you were a walking cow or lizard ?
I can't wait to get hold of SW:ToR so I don't think they will die a death in any way shape or form.
Something to look forward to in an expansion, and a reason for people ot purchase an expansion.
^^ just that )
I can't believe people still buy this "it may come in an expansion sometime, eventually, maybe" crap.
EVERY single MMO facing critique or lacking features answered with the same PR blah blah. Yes we don't have it now, but that doesn't rule out the possiblity we may add it later. Like the WOW housing. Or the EQ2 flying mounts. Or the big content update for Champions Online. Or the third WAR faction. Or sieges for AoC. The list is endless. It's always the same. Fans are disappointed of something missing, and companies hasten to hint it may be added later. "We don't rule out the possibility to add XYZ later." That ALWAYS means, thanks for buying our product and filling our bank account, now off with you. It never ever was added in any of the cases.
They want you to buy the box and subscribe always with the looming promise of what will eventually come to make the game better, and in the end it never comes. When they have no playable Trandoshans or Wookiees at release, they will never come later.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Something to look forward to in an expansion, and a reason for people ot purchase an expansion.
^^ just that )
I can't believe people still buy this "it may come in an expansion sometime, eventually, maybe" crap.
EVERY single MMO facing critique or lacking features answered with the same PR blah blah. Yes we don't have it now, but that doesn't rule out the possiblity we may add it later. Like the WOW housing. Or the EQ2 flying mounts. Or the big content update for Champions Online. Or the third WAR faction. Or sieges for AoC. The list is endless. It's always the same. Fans are disappointed of something missing, and companies hasten to hint it may be added later. "We don't rule out the possibility to add XYZ later." That ALWAYS means, thanks for buying our product and filling our bank account, now off with you. It never ever was added in any of the cases.
They want you to buy the box and subscribe always with the looming promise of what will eventually come to make the game better, and in the end it never comes. When they have no playable Trandoshans or Wookiees at release, they will never come later.
Then don't buy the freaking thing! Let us infidels buy it and get shafted. It's our money to spend as we see fit.
Wow, first space combat turns to s*** because of their limited perception of storytelling and now race selection. How much is gameplay crippled due to story?
Like Lando says. "This deal's getting worse all the time..."
I was very dissapointed in this. There is such a vast amount of species in Star Wars that limiting them to the human like ones kinda defeats the point of playing a game that involves being in an entire galaxy filled with such unique species. Sacraficing a players choice for the sake of story is not a very good move on their part.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
SWTOR don't buy it, ITs a TRAP. (what you get for no ackbar)
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I took a while to reply to this thread since I'm not following SWKOR that much as I figure from what I knew of the game and see the random announcements that it appeals to me less and less, but I still held a little bit of secret hope but this is the last straw.
Who the HELL is BIOWARE to decide that I can't relate to a giant Lizard. Oh thats right, they are the company that I have bought all their games. I was disappointed in DA, but still bought the xpack, and I can't even drag myself to play ME2 laying unopened on my shelf. I knew EA was going to kill Bioware, but damn its I thought it would at least be heldout for a while.
I can relate to a giant lizard more than I can a twi'lek that is for sure. I'd rather play a human, Zabrak? I don't want horns on my head unless my head is covered in scales. This is probably the last straw, if I can't play what I deem a "monster race" I won't play it. Its SW for god's sake and has monster races. It would be like me playing EQ or WOW and not being able to play a Troll or Sarnak. Lore wise it makes zero sense. Of course I understand the story point, but why does the story always have to be about a "human" saving the day. Sure I understand the hype of the human spirit and ability to overcome all odds all the time, but seriously give me my race of choice. You made yours now I positively made mine: No Trandoshan or other Lizard type, NO sub from me regardless if its the best thing since sliced bread.
Thats the BIGGEST LOAD of BULLSHIT I have heard in years!
Human players can't play aliens because they can't identify enough? Well why did people play Bothans or Mon Calamari or Wookiee in SWG, why did people play Ratonga or Sarnath in Everquest 2, why do you many request to play Droid in SWTOR?
I mean WTF? This sort of explanation is just a big heap of horsedung! Sorry to be gross... but maybe THEIR imagination is so narrow. And ok, playing a blob or an intelligent ocean is difficult. But damnation, a Sci-Fi setting like STAR WARS has so many aliens which people would want to play, how in the 23 names of the devil can you get a huge, fantastic IP like STAR WARS and then puke out such a frigging stream of crap!
I mean LOOK at what sort of characters people made when their imagination is free! Look at Champions Online or City of Heroes! People create ugly devils, robots, bizarre aliens, furries and whatnot! And they identify with it perfectly happy!!!
Dammit... THIS is it? We are getting HUMANS like in DAMN STAR TREK of 1960ies because you can write your ROMANCEs for everyone? I DON'T THE HELL BELIEVE IT.
NAILED IT!
This simple fact that races that have been playable in many of the other star wars games are not playable here is just plain stupid.
150 million dollars and i can not play a DAMN MON CALAMARI !
it really makes me shake my head. SAD FACE
Funny to think that even SWG, which they turned into an absolute dog of a game, you COULD play a Mon Calamari AND you could fight and fly in space.
SWG is still alive out there in MMOland...AND you can still select various races..fly/fight in space (still works fine actually much better than right after JTL launch). I WAS a dog! Teras Kasi Bothan bounty hunter ftw!
This is just another example of the strange dishonesty of the Bioware team when it comes tom talking to the customers.
They tell us; 'You can't have non-human lead characters because you can't relate to them as heroes'.
What they really mean is: 'You can't have non-human lead characters because that would mean we would have to write and animate a non-human storyline in parallal with the human storylines we have written'.
Now why couldn't they just say that? I don't think anyone would have objected.
It's just like their excuses for the crappy rail-shooter space element.
thank you for taking the words out of my mouth.
i won't play this now. and the main reason is because this asshole felt he had to belittle potential customers because of our preffered non-human race options in MMO's.
not to be a naysayer, but these guys are just making a 1-player game that they want you to pay for longer than a console.
i only play MMO's because of the freedom they offer, and a Star Wars MMO should reflect that freedom. outer-space, tons of races, magic and technlogy. it has so much potential and when i hear how much Bioware is limiting that potential it kills any desire i had to play.
Of course you still will do the same quest tasks, that hasn't changed much since EQ.
It doesn't mean that I still would like to quests as they were presented in EQ.
The way I see it it went like this:
- around EQ, your basic form of (level) progression was via quests and mob grinding.
Although fun for a while, most people didn't like to have to continuously do mobgrinding to level. If it was the core successful progression mechanics, the mobgrinding, then it would have been dominant in MMO's still, and Asian MMO's would have been a lot more popular and successful.
- instead people favored progression via questing, hence MMO's like EQ2 and WoW followed with an abundance of quests.
This resulted in the quest grinding for progression.
It was successful, and popular, but after years and years also this progression mechanism starts to feel bland and less fun.
In the natural evolution of MMO gameplay mechanics, it's time for a change, people are openminded towards change.
So, my question: people who so much hate or dislike Story in MMO's, are they that happy and satisfied with the current same old quest mechanics? Or do they want to go back even further, and prefer the sandboxy mob grinding to progression kind of mechanics?
What I'm wondering, do these people prefer things to stay the same when it comes to questing, above having story mechanics added to the way of questing?
Your question is asked from a false premise.
You can have quest chains and storylines in sandbox games.
this has nothing to do with sandbox. This also has nothing to do with story. Just because I am playing a mon-cal it would not somehow magically change the story around. If someones game immersion is somehow effected by playing an oddball race then choose to play a human or something....oh but that choice isnt there to begin with - bioware is making that choice for us.
More races would not take anyting from the game; it could only add to it.
Bioware is indeed making that choice for you: they've limited the number of races that you'll be able to play. There will be a number of races that you couldn't play in SWG but can play in SW:TOR, and there will be a number of races that you can't play and that you could in SWG. They've also made the choice to limit the races to humanoid in order to better suit the story aspect they intend to implement ingame. That's the trade off, less races to choose from for a deepened storytelling aspect.
I can imagine that people who don't care much for story in a MMO, that they find that a bad trade off. Then again, that's the direction Bioware has chosen for their game.
Originally posted by agaga
Your point would be valid if they were making a movie.
They're not. They're making a game.
They're making a game with a deepened story component.
Storytelling follows the same basic structures whether it's in a book, movie, series or game.
i play mmo's because I am more interested in my own story than anything they could force-feed me. Tons of solo games exist if storyline is someone's biggest concern. i always liked MMO's because i was allowed to have that freedom to make my own game out of it.
bioware has claimed that they are trying to change how we view MMO's but really i think they have little clue what they are doing in the field. maybe they should stick with console games that have more cut-scenes than playtime.
the MMO genre does indeed need to grow and expand, but i feel single-path storyline is the wrong direction. we need improvements in gameplay, animations, UI, and a ton of other things before something like single player story mode.
Comments
Well like it or not, it will happen by many people. I don't understand it either, but I choose not to give a damn, as long as they don't effect my gameplay I have no problems playing beside them.
Of course you still will do the same quest tasks, that hasn't changed much since EQ.
It doesn't mean that I still would like to quests as they were presented in EQ.
The way I see it it went like this:
- around EQ, your basic form of (level) progression was via quests and mob grinding.
Although fun for a while, most people didn't like to have to continuously do mobgrinding to level. If it was the core successful progression mechanics, the mobgrinding, then it would have been dominant in MMO's still, and Asian MMO's would have been a lot more popular and successful.
- instead people favored progression via questing, hence MMO's like EQ2 and WoW followed with an abundance of quests.
This resulted in the quest grinding for progression.
It was successful, and popular, but after years and years also this progression mechanism starts to feel bland and less fun.
In the natural evolution of MMO gameplay mechanics, it's time for a change, people are openminded towards change.
So, my question: people who so much hate or dislike Story in MMO's, are they that happy and satisfied with the current same old quest mechanics? Or do they want to go back even further, and prefer the sandboxy mob grinding to progression kind of mechanics?
What I'm wondering, do these people prefer things to stay the same when it comes to questing, above having story mechanics added to the way of questing?
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
This is exaclty what people are failing to understand. They wanted a story driven game, and it has come with a cost. They focused alot on story because they want the whole game to be fun and engaging. Therefore they cannot bring you anything and everything , where as a game like swg can try to please everyone, yet fail at the same time. This is the kind of game they wanted, so they are probably running out of funds after spending150-300 mill or whatever it was on this game, and with alot of the reactions from the ungrateful MMO fan base , (well the people on this forum and maybe a few others anyhow) they are probably hard pressed to get anymore funding. I doubt EA is gonna want to dump anymore money into the game, at least until they see whether or not their investment was worth while.
People complaining about the races in this game amaze me. GW2 /FF14/AION/ AOC/ even WOW, these are all games with very limited race options, and nobody is crying about that and they don't even have a vast story line like this game, where extra races may affect it. I think the races revealed so far are plentiful for an MMO, people just want to find things to nit pick about, and let's be honest, it is just hurting the industry.
Big companies are gonna decide it is not worth it to invest tons of money into a dev team anymore to bring you an awesome game. Talk about taking risks and innovating. I think they are taking a huge risk with all this millions and millions of dollars and a heavy focus on story. Instead of taking the SWG route or something and having a low budget while trying to please everyone.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
This was a great post, but the highlighted isn't going to help here. People are still asking for SWG pre-cu back, it doesn't seem people want a good dev team or awesome game. Just broken outdated crap.
You have to fight enemies in the middle of your story scenes sometimes. Well, you have a choice to fight them or let them live, and sometimes it is rewarding to let them live because they could become a new companion, or it may be rewarding to fight them, for whatever reason, or even kill them...
There are a few things to stop people from just going on without listening to the story, and I wouldn't understand why anyone would want to skip most of the story, at least the main part. What will really piss me off if there is some player grouped with me trying to rush me through my story, like I had when I was watching a cut scene while playing AION.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
Anyways, to what I was saying. What I'm curious about can't be answered at this time. Nobody is that deep into the game to share the information. Basically, my concern is content, hopefully they have a lot of it. If they're going for mass appeal they're gonna need plenty for those that choose to skip story. In the end, their complaining CAN effect your experience.
Something to look forward to in an expansion, and a reason for people ot purchase an expansion.
Oh yea, i'm pretty sure I have an idea of what scene you are talking about. As far as I know , nobody outside of maybe the dev team and some people working for EA/LA/BW have had an opportunity to experience anything past level 7 content, maybe the 3 guys that got to do that group scene with the mon cal trooper...
Just have to wait and see when the game comes out or there is a more free/open beta testing phase. I am sure it will have plenty of content.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
^^ just that
)
Yeah uh, when people ask for SWG pre-CU back, they're asking for the game in it's true concept to be brought back. They still want the bugs and major balance issues dealt with, but they want the core game where you choose your own path and can mix skills from different trees to make your own class. And of course, the best damn crafting system of any MMO to date.
They do want a good dev team, and it's specifically that they do want an awsome game, which is exactly why they want pre-CU back, with it's bug and balance issues fixed... not yet another themepark like every other half-baked hand holder MMO out there today.
Yeah, so, what you're actually saying is that the people who want SWG back - and who wanted SW:TOR to be a SWG2 - are people who like sandbox style MMO's, and who hate/dislike themepark MMO's.
Although I'm sure that that group of people was also large and that they had a blast in SWG pre-CU, it wasn't that impressive overall as you might think: SWG had before the NGE only slightly more than 200k subs, even more, they were bleeding a disturbing 10k subs per month.
Suffice to say that Lucas Arts wasn't impressed with it either, and you know, they're right: 200k subs for an IP as Star Wars and even more, a decreasing trend of 10k subs per month is far from impressive.
SOE had their shot, the Star Wars world as it was constructed in SWG clearly didn't work out, even if a number of gamers liked it.
It's nothing but fair to see if Bioware with another design philosophy can't do better. Maybe you might not like it, but the themepark model has proven to be more attractive and popular among MMO gamers than the sandbox model.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm not too sure if star wars fans liked that game, or if it was a game for sandbox fans... Didn't seem very star warsy to me, though.
I didn't like it. Space was fun for awhile, the pvp was pretty fun. But over all the game was garbage. That's just my opinion.
"When it comes to GW2 any game is fair game"
Yeah, it's funny to see how SW:TOR opponents complain how 'not Star Wars' SW:TOR is and that SWG had a far better 'Star Wars feel', while glossing over things like canon breakers as a lot of Jedi roaming around in a time period that should have only the ones in the movie.
Basically, SW:TOR is more going for the 'Star Wars look & feel' of the movies, while SWG didn't come close to the Star Wars movies, it was more a sandbox type scifi MMO that happened to be in the Star Wars universe.
It was still nice of course: but SWTOR will be closer to the SW Expanded Universe lore and closer to the Star Wars vibe from the movies. I think that real Star Wars fans can appreciate that, people who can't and who prefer a SWG(2) experience instead are less Star Wars fans and more people who're looking for a SWG sandbox experience.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
SWG is not SW:TOR we all should already know this, I enjoy SWG came back just this week to play it again, i've also already preordered SW:TOR for myself and wife they are two completely different games.
I am personally pretty happy with what Daniel said and it makes sense, 99% of the people i've seen roleplaying dragons, aliens, mechanoids etc do so very very badly in fact I only ever saw one droid roleplayed well and that was in champions online, mostly people just asign human emotions, human ideals even human ethics, morals and religion to creatures that just are not.
Some very few can make that leap, can think outside the box and maybe maybe could create a believable "freak" for something like SW:TOR but it really isn't viable for a company to invest the time and effort into it.
Lets face it 99% of mmo's out there atm do not deserve the RPG, they just stick it on there to try and grab an audience, Bioware is an excellent company who has made some of the best emotion driven games out there, that moment in mass effect when you haveto choose to loose Ashley or kaiden I hadto actually pause the game and take the dog for a walk to decide who I was going to send to there deaths..
We have had sandbox mmo's etc but SW:ToR is different its a story driven game something me and my friends have been waiting for since kotor, something mmo's have never touched, yes you can go out with friends etc but you can never get the storyline or emotional connection that you can in a good rpg single player.
yes wow/swg/eq2 had wierd races but can you really say they also had engaging storylines that recognised you were a walking cow or lizard ?
I can't wait to get hold of SW:ToR so I don't think they will die a death in any way shape or form.
I can't believe people still buy this "it may come in an expansion sometime, eventually, maybe" crap.
EVERY single MMO facing critique or lacking features answered with the same PR blah blah. Yes we don't have it now, but that doesn't rule out the possiblity we may add it later. Like the WOW housing. Or the EQ2 flying mounts. Or the big content update for Champions Online. Or the third WAR faction. Or sieges for AoC. The list is endless. It's always the same. Fans are disappointed of something missing, and companies hasten to hint it may be added later. "We don't rule out the possibility to add XYZ later." That ALWAYS means, thanks for buying our product and filling our bank account, now off with you. It never ever was added in any of the cases.
They want you to buy the box and subscribe always with the looming promise of what will eventually come to make the game better, and in the end it never comes. When they have no playable Trandoshans or Wookiees at release, they will never come later.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Then don't buy the freaking thing! Let us infidels buy it and get shafted. It's our money to spend as we see fit.
Wow, first space combat turns to s*** because of their limited perception of storytelling and now race selection. How much is gameplay crippled due to story?
Like Lando says. "This deal's getting worse all the time..."
I was very dissapointed in this. There is such a vast amount of species in Star Wars that limiting them to the human like ones kinda defeats the point of playing a game that involves being in an entire galaxy filled with such unique species. Sacraficing a players choice for the sake of story is not a very good move on their part.
I translated the entire explaination down to,
"because it was too difficult to do it the other way"
But that's pretty much what this game's been all about in its design choices.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
SWTOR don't buy it, ITs a TRAP. (what you get for no ackbar)
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
I took a while to reply to this thread since I'm not following SWKOR that much as I figure from what I knew of the game and see the random announcements that it appeals to me less and less, but I still held a little bit of secret hope but this is the last straw.
Who the HELL is BIOWARE to decide that I can't relate to a giant Lizard. Oh thats right, they are the company that I have bought all their games. I was disappointed in DA, but still bought the xpack, and I can't even drag myself to play ME2 laying unopened on my shelf. I knew EA was going to kill Bioware, but damn its I thought it would at least be heldout for a while.
I can relate to a giant lizard more than I can a twi'lek that is for sure. I'd rather play a human, Zabrak? I don't want horns on my head unless my head is covered in scales. This is probably the last straw, if I can't play what I deem a "monster race" I won't play it. Its SW for god's sake and has monster races. It would be like me playing EQ or WOW and not being able to play a Troll or Sarnak. Lore wise it makes zero sense. Of course I understand the story point, but why does the story always have to be about a "human" saving the day. Sure I understand the hype of the human spirit and ability to overcome all odds all the time, but seriously give me my race of choice. You made yours now I positively made mine: No Trandoshan or other Lizard type, NO sub from me regardless if its the best thing since sliced bread.
SWG is still alive out there in MMOland...AND you can still select various races..fly/fight in space (still works fine actually much better than right after JTL launch). I WAS a dog! Teras Kasi Bothan bounty hunter ftw!
Wumi - SWG - Bloodfin - Cancelled
Wumi - WoW - Eu-Kazzak - Cancelled
Bulldozer - Aion - Eu-Kahrun - Cancelled
Wumi - Rift - EU-Riptalon - Cancelled
thank you for taking the words out of my mouth.
i won't play this now. and the main reason is because this asshole felt he had to belittle potential customers because of our preffered non-human race options in MMO's.
not to be a naysayer, but these guys are just making a 1-player game that they want you to pay for longer than a console.
i only play MMO's because of the freedom they offer, and a Star Wars MMO should reflect that freedom. outer-space, tons of races, magic and technlogy. it has so much potential and when i hear how much Bioware is limiting that potential it kills any desire i had to play.
Your question is asked from a false premise.
You can have quest chains and storylines in sandbox games.
i play mmo's because I am more interested in my own story than anything they could force-feed me. Tons of solo games exist if storyline is someone's biggest concern. i always liked MMO's because i was allowed to have that freedom to make my own game out of it.
bioware has claimed that they are trying to change how we view MMO's but really i think they have little clue what they are doing in the field. maybe they should stick with console games that have more cut-scenes than playtime.
the MMO genre does indeed need to grow and expand, but i feel single-path storyline is the wrong direction. we need improvements in gameplay, animations, UI, and a ton of other things before something like single player story mode.