Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

The Old Republic = WOW with Lightsabers

12346

Comments

  • ashfallenashfallen Member Posts: 186

    Originally posted by LizardEgypt

    I don't think the whole thing about RPGs all being the same has anything to do with this.. the different here is that this game is clearly being designed off the sucess of another game, if that's not cloning then I don't know what is..

     From your thinking, WoW its self, was a clone of EQ1.  As WoW as designed almost entirely with the experiences drawn from EQ1. 

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by DariusGear

    one final note think of some books you might have read where you could swear if you just tweaked the story a little and changed the characters it would be the same as another book you read so must they be clones? 

    Yes, absolutely.  A lot of (especially fantasy) books produced are LoTR clones and often described as such.  If you go to your nearest bookstore (at least in north america) you will see a table - likely within 5 metres of the entrance - with a whole bunch of Twilight clones. 3-5 years ago the same tables were full of Harry Potter clones. 

     

    This is not to say that they aren't enjoyable books.  Hell, I've even read a bunch of Salvatore's drizzt books and i swear he just copies and pastes whole passages from one book to the next.  I still bought them and enjoyed reading them.  

     

    Anyhow, someone make "SWG without lightsabers", I'll play it.  I don't care if it's a clone.

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • LizardEgyptLizardEgypt Member UncommonPosts: 333

    Originally posted by ashfallen

    Originally posted by LizardEgypt

    I don't think the whole thing about RPGs all being the same has anything to do with this.. the different here is that this game is clearly being designed off the sucess of another game, if that's not cloning then I don't know what is..

     From your thinking, WoW its self, was a clone of EQ1.  As WoW as designed almost entirely with the experiences drawn from EQ1. 

    Yes.

    Currently playing - FF14ARR
    Previous games - SWG, World of Warcraft, ShadowBane, Warhammer, Age of Conan, Darkfall, Planetside Asheron's Call, Everquest, Everquest 2, Too many.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by arieste

    when the developers themselves most commonly use the phrase "it's like WoW with..." to describe TOR, why does it upset people that others use the phrase "WoW with lightsabers"... it seems pretty accurate.  it's a game aimed to provide the same general experience as WoW with the main difference being that it has lightsabers (i.e. is set in SW universe and has that story).

     

    i don't play WoW, i happily have been playing EQ2 for 6 years... but if you want to all EQ2 "WoW with rats" or to call WoW "EQ2 with night elves", i honestly won't get offended.  The games are very similar in the experience they provide and in how they provide it.  And LoTRO is "WoW with hobbits" and AION is "WoW with wings"...it's not an insult, it's a description.  Ever hear anyone call EVE "WoW in space" ? No?  I wonder why no one uses that insult... maybe because it's not a good way of describing EVE?  When TOR shows enough difference from WoW, people will stop describing it as "WoW-like", not because it will no longer be an insult, but simply because the description will no longer be accurate.

    That's a very good point.

     

    But to place some remarks to your arguments:

    - most posters if you look at their posts don't use the term 'WoW clone' as you do, simply as a description, but derogatory, in much the same way as terms as 'slut', 'freak' or 'loser' are used, not as much as a description of the truth but as a comment voicing low opinion.

    They're not saying 'it's a WoW clone so it'll be as successful and polished and have smooth gameplay as WoW'. They're saying 'WoW clone' meaning "it's a cheap imitation, with bland and boring gameplay and will be nothing as successful as WoW has been".

     

    - People using the term 'WoW clone' also often focus on a few aspects they dislike of which they claim it being proof of a MMO being a 'WoW clone', ignoring all the other gameplay features that make that MMO very different from WoW.

     

    - The developers used "it's like WoW" for the simple reason that WoW is the largest MMO and that most people are familiar with MMO gameplay mechanics via WoW, so it's far easier to say "it's like WoW" then "it's like you see in many themepark MMO's" or "it's like Everquest or Vanguard". They also said that some of their features "are like WAR" or "are like Mass Effect", strangely enough you don't hear people calling SWTOR "Massively Multiplayer ME with lightsabres" while the questing and Companion mechanics have definitely more in common with Mass Effect than with common themepark MMO's as WoW.

     

    - There'll be large groups of people that won't stop describing SW TOR as 'WoW clone' for the simple fact that they use the term to voice their dislike of a MMO, so in their eyes SW:TOR will never have enough differences with WoW because they only focus on the few similarities that they don't like.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • thexratedthexrated Member UncommonPosts: 1,368

    "People using the term 'WoW clone' also often focus on a few aspects they dislike of which they claim it being proof of a MMO being a 'WoW clone', ignoring all the other gameplay features that make that MMO very different from WoW."

    Majority of today's  MMORPGs, including EQ, WoW etc. are based on gameplay mechanics were developed from DikuMUD onwards. This was back in 1991. That's right. Many of you were not even born then :) Anyway...

    Below is a good link to read about DikuMUD and it's history relating to MMORPGs.


    What is a Diku?

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • ashfallenashfallen Member Posts: 186

    Originally posted by thexrated

    "People using the term 'WoW clone' also often focus on a few aspects they dislike of which they claim it being proof of a MMO being a 'WoW clone', ignoring all the other gameplay features that make that MMO very different from WoW."

    Majority of today's  MMORPGs, including EQ, WoW etc. are based on gameplay mechanics were developed from DikuMUD onwards. This was back in 1991. That's right. Many of you were not even born then :) Anyway...

    Below is a good link to read about DikuMUD and it's history relating to MMORPGs.


    What is a Diku?

     EQ1's designers used D&D as a baseline model for EQ1.

  • HardcodedHardcoded Member UncommonPosts: 97

    Ok since some people seem to have a hard time with the term clone, and seem to think WoW is the first and only mmo, I figured I'd throw my 2 cents in and post some very helpfull links for some of the children to look at.

    For the ones who like to throw the clone word around

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/clone

    http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=2756

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clone

     

    and for the ones who think WoW is the first MMO

    http://biobreak.wordpress.com/mmo-timeline/

    http://timelines.com/topics/mmorpg

    yes im aware that those two game lists may not be 100% accurate, or even agree with each other, but they do both agree on one tiny, simple thing, that WoW is not the frist, and shares lots of ideas and mechanics with its predecessors.

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Member UncommonPosts: 2,662

    So let me get this straight, a number of people here believe that the down fall of an entire genre is due to using a:

    !

     

     

    Wow and you don't think you're overreacting just a tiny bit? If TOR's entire leveling experience is going to be like playing the main questline in Tortage from AoC, then I'm gonna be a VERY happy camper and I don't care if they use:

     

     

    *

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • LordRakshaLordRaksha Member Posts: 21

    Haha. Hahahaha. It's funny, really, to see people bash something that honestly is going to be different in some areas than WoW is. Sure, fundamentally, it will have 'MMORPG conventions', that WoW 'simplified.' obviously but it will be nothing like WoW except in art style.

     

    Does WoW have an interesting storyline? No. It has things like 'kill 10 wolves' or it's varient 'kill 50 wolves.' for no reason. Copypasta quests that I care less about. In the beginning WoW was worth playing; skill over gear. Now it's just basically horrible horrible and more horrible.

     

    Does WoW have companion system? Nope, not even close.

     

    Does WoW have decisions that may affect the course of a chain of quests, or interesting starting areas? Not really. The Goblins is a bit interesting, but then it gets less interesting down the line. No decisions in there, either.

     

    What crafting system does WoW and TOR use? Well, WoW uses a rather crappy system of 'find these specific materials and, well, make as many as you can! :D :D :D' while TOR's is unknown I do hope they DEVIATE from WoWs failtastic crafting system.

     

    And as someone previously said, WoW isn't the first, nor the best. The best, I think, was Ultima, then Everquest. Currently WoW ranks, in my opinion, alongside RuneScape, a crappy, but at least a tad more interesting browser based MMO. While I will not disagree that TOR does 'look' like a stylized WoW, and some of it's systems are fundamentally parts of MMO conventions, 'tis a fool notion to write it off as WoW with Lightsabers, because many things besides the cartoon look, the feel, and other things are not part of WoW, such a fully voiced MMO, and the other reasons listed and more. So, really, you're just taking shots at an MMO yet unreleased, that has things set in it already that set it apart from WoW in quite a few instances.

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by cyphers

    Originally posted by arieste

    when the developers themselves most commonly use the phrase "it's like WoW with..." to describe TOR, why does it upset people that others use the phrase "WoW with lightsabers"... it seems pretty accurate.  it's a game aimed to provide the same general experience as WoW with the main difference being that it has lightsabers (i.e. is set in SW universe and has that story).

     

    i don't play WoW, i happily have been playing EQ2 for 6 years... but if you want to all EQ2 "WoW with rats" or to call WoW "EQ2 with night elves", i honestly won't get offended.  The games are very similar in the experience they provide and in how they provide it.  And LoTRO is "WoW with hobbits" and AION is "WoW with wings"...it's not an insult, it's a description.  Ever hear anyone call EVE "WoW in space" ? No?  I wonder why no one uses that insult... maybe because it's not a good way of describing EVE?  When TOR shows enough difference from WoW, people will stop describing it as "WoW-like", not because it will no longer be an insult, but simply because the description will no longer be accurate.

    That's a very good point.

     

    But to place some remarks to your arguments:

    - most posters if you look at their posts don't use the term 'WoW clone' as you do, simply as a description, but derogatory, in much the same way as terms as 'slut', 'freak' or 'loser' are used, not as much as a description of the truth but as a comment voicing low opinion.

    They're not saying 'it's a WoW clone so it'll be as successful and polished and have smooth gameplay as WoW'. They're saying 'WoW clone' meaning "it's a cheap imitation, with bland and boring gameplay and will be nothing as successful as WoW has been".

     

    - People using the term 'WoW clone' also often focus on a few aspects they dislike of which they claim it being proof of a MMO being a 'WoW clone', ignoring all the other gameplay features that make that MMO very different from WoW.

     

    - The developers used "it's like WoW" for the simple reason that WoW is the largest MMO and that most people are familiar with MMO gameplay mechanics via WoW, so it's far easier to say "it's like WoW" then "it's like you see in many themepark MMO's" or "it's like Everquest or Vanguard". They also said that some of their features "are like WAR" or "are like Mass Effect", strangely enough you don't hear people calling SWTOR "Massively Multiplayer ME with lightsabres" while the questing and Companion mechanics have definitely more in common with Mass Effect than with common themepark MMO's as WoW.

     

    - There'll be large groups of people that won't stop describing SW TOR as 'WoW clone' for the simple fact that they use the term to voice their dislike of a MMO, so in their eyes SW:TOR will never have enough differences with WoW because they only focus on the few similarities that they don't like.

    Ah, i see now, so the problem isn't that the game is a WoW Clone, it's that people call it that.  :)    (seriously tho, i get what you mean).  And btw, it HAS been called ME / KOTOR with multiplayer and a chatroom.  Which probably is also appropriate given what we know about it. 

     

    Back to "WoW clone" for a second, I actually think "WoW derivative" is probably a more appropriate term for this and other similar discussions.

     

    On another note - as a long-tim EQ2 player - i'm always somewhat offended that people say "WoW clone" and not "EQ2 clone".   The two games launched at the same time and were extremely similar in approach and methodology, WoW just turned out to be more well known so it gets used in the comparisons.  I'm totally jealous.  Just think, this whole thread could have been callled "EQ2 with lightsabers"!  Dammit. 

    "I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

    - Raph Koster

    Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
    Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
    Currently Playing: ESO

  • LordRakshaLordRaksha Member Posts: 21

    Originally posted by arieste

    Originally posted by cyphers


    Originally posted by arieste

    when the developers themselves most commonly use the phrase "it's like WoW with..." to describe TOR, why does it upset people that others use the phrase "WoW with lightsabers"... it seems pretty accurate.  it's a game aimed to provide the same general experience as WoW with the main difference being that it has lightsabers (i.e. is set in SW universe and has that story).

     

    i don't play WoW, i happily have been playing EQ2 for 6 years... but if you want to all EQ2 "WoW with rats" or to call WoW "EQ2 with night elves", i honestly won't get offended.  The games are very similar in the experience they provide and in how they provide it.  And LoTRO is "WoW with hobbits" and AION is "WoW with wings"...it's not an insult, it's a description.  Ever hear anyone call EVE "WoW in space" ? No?  I wonder why no one uses that insult... maybe because it's not a good way of describing EVE?  When TOR shows enough difference from WoW, people will stop describing it as "WoW-like", not because it will no longer be an insult, but simply because the description will no longer be accurate.

    That's a very good point.

     

    But to place some remarks to your arguments:

    - most posters if you look at their posts don't use the term 'WoW clone' as you do, simply as a description, but derogatory, in much the same way as terms as 'slut', 'freak' or 'loser' are used, not as much as a description of the truth but as a comment voicing low opinion.

    They're not saying 'it's a WoW clone so it'll be as successful and polished and have smooth gameplay as WoW'. They're saying 'WoW clone' meaning "it's a cheap imitation, with bland and boring gameplay and will be nothing as successful as WoW has been".

     

    - People using the term 'WoW clone' also often focus on a few aspects they dislike of which they claim it being proof of a MMO being a 'WoW clone', ignoring all the other gameplay features that make that MMO very different from WoW.

     

    - The developers used "it's like WoW" for the simple reason that WoW is the largest MMO and that most people are familiar with MMO gameplay mechanics via WoW, so it's far easier to say "it's like WoW" then "it's like you see in many themepark MMO's" or "it's like Everquest or Vanguard". They also said that some of their features "are like WAR" or "are like Mass Effect", strangely enough you don't hear people calling SWTOR "Massively Multiplayer ME with lightsabres" while the questing and Companion mechanics have definitely more in common with Mass Effect than with common themepark MMO's as WoW.

     

    - There'll be large groups of people that won't stop describing SW TOR as 'WoW clone' for the simple fact that they use the term to voice their dislike of a MMO, so in their eyes SW:TOR will never have enough differences with WoW because they only focus on the few similarities that they don't like.

    Ah, i see now, so the problem isn't that the game is a WoW Clone, it's that people call it that.  :)    (seriously tho, i get what you mean).  And btw, it HAS been called ME / KOTOR with multiplayer and a chatroom.  Which probably is also appropriate given what we know about it. 

     

    Back to "WoW clone" for a second, I actually think "WoW derivative" is probably a more appropriate term for this and other similar discussions.

     

    On another note - as a long-tim EQ2 player - i'm always somewhat offended that people say "WoW clone" and not "EQ2 clone".   The two games launched at the same time and were extremely similar in approach and methodology, WoW just turned out to be more well known so it gets used in the comparisons.  I'm totally jealous.  Just think, this whole thread could have been callled "EQ2 with lightsabers"!  Dammit. 

     

    ...

     

    EQ2 with Lightsabers sounds bada$$ actually. Damn, now I want to see that. D:

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,232

    Originally posted by arieste

    Originally posted by cyphers


    Originally posted by arieste

    when the developers themselves most commonly use the phrase "it's like WoW with..." to describe TOR, why does it upset people that others use the phrase "WoW with lightsabers"... it seems pretty accurate.  it's a game aimed to provide the same general experience as WoW with the main difference being that it has lightsabers (i.e. is set in SW universe and has that story).

     

    i don't play WoW, i happily have been playing EQ2 for 6 years... but if you want to all EQ2 "WoW with rats" or to call WoW "EQ2 with night elves", i honestly won't get offended.  The games are very similar in the experience they provide and in how they provide it.  And LoTRO is "WoW with hobbits" and AION is "WoW with wings"...it's not an insult, it's a description.  Ever hear anyone call EVE "WoW in space" ? No?  I wonder why no one uses that insult... maybe because it's not a good way of describing EVE?  When TOR shows enough difference from WoW, people will stop describing it as "WoW-like", not because it will no longer be an insult, but simply because the description will no longer be accurate.

    That's a very good point.

     

    But to place some remarks to your arguments:

    - most posters if you look at their posts don't use the term 'WoW clone' as you do, simply as a description, but derogatory, in much the same way as terms as 'slut', 'freak' or 'loser' are used, not as much as a description of the truth but as a comment voicing low opinion.

    They're not saying 'it's a WoW clone so it'll be as successful and polished and have smooth gameplay as WoW'. They're saying 'WoW clone' meaning "it's a cheap imitation, with bland and boring gameplay and will be nothing as successful as WoW has been".

     

    - People using the term 'WoW clone' also often focus on a few aspects they dislike of which they claim it being proof of a MMO being a 'WoW clone', ignoring all the other gameplay features that make that MMO very different from WoW.

     

    - The developers used "it's like WoW" for the simple reason that WoW is the largest MMO and that most people are familiar with MMO gameplay mechanics via WoW, so it's far easier to say "it's like WoW" then "it's like you see in many themepark MMO's" or "it's like Everquest or Vanguard". They also said that some of their features "are like WAR" or "are like Mass Effect", strangely enough you don't hear people calling SWTOR "Massively Multiplayer ME with lightsabres" while the questing and Companion mechanics have definitely more in common with Mass Effect than with common themepark MMO's as WoW.

     

    - There'll be large groups of people that won't stop describing SW TOR as 'WoW clone' for the simple fact that they use the term to voice their dislike of a MMO, so in their eyes SW:TOR will never have enough differences with WoW because they only focus on the few similarities that they don't like.

    Ah, i see now, so the problem isn't that the game is a WoW Clone, it's that people call it that.  :)    (seriously tho, i get what you mean).  And btw, it HAS been called ME / KOTOR with multiplayer and a chatroom.  Which probably is also appropriate given what we know about it. 

     

    Back to "WoW clone" for a second, I actually think "WoW derivative" is probably a more appropriate term for this and other similar discussions.

     

    On another note - as a long-tim EQ2 player - i'm always somewhat offended that people say "WoW clone" and not "EQ2 clone".   The two games launched at the same time and were extremely similar in approach and methodology, WoW just turned out to be more well known so it gets used in the comparisons.  I'm totally jealous.  Just think, this whole thread could have been callled "EQ2 with lightsabers"!  Dammit. 

    I  find it awfully funny a game can be both a WoW clone and a KOTOR with multiplayer "aspects" game.  If its a clone, then its a clone.  If its a single player game with multiplayer aspects, then thats what it is.  It can't be both,  yet thats where the terms originate from and deviate to.

     

    They are created to instill dislike,  not to actually state a true point of fact, or solid opinion.  Users of the term WoW clone aren't interested in the actual features of the game in question,  but moreso the insult they feel they are giving said game by labeling it as something they dislike -- whether that means its World of Warcraft,  or a Single Player game,  one thing is for certain,  it is not the game they want it to be and this is the best way for them to show it. (rather then, say, move along and follow something else)



  • SWTORisWoWSWTORisWoW Member Posts: 4

    Originally posted by LordRaksha

    Haha. Hahahaha. It's funny, really, to see people bash something that honestly is going to be different in some areas than WoW is. Sure, fundamentally, it will have 'MMORPG conventions', that WoW 'simplified.' obviously but it will be nothing like WoW except in art style.

     

    Does WoW have an interesting storyline? No. It has things like 'kill 10 wolves' or it's varient 'kill 50 wolves.' for no reason. Copypasta quests that I care less about. In the beginning WoW was worth playing; skill over gear. Now it's just basically horrible horrible and more horrible.

     

    Does WoW have companion system? Nope, not even close.

     

    Does WoW have decisions that may affect the course of a chain of quests, or interesting starting areas? Not really. The Goblins is a bit interesting, but then it gets less interesting down the line. No decisions in there, either.

     

    What crafting system does WoW and TOR use? Well, WoW uses a rather crappy system of 'find these specific materials and, well, make as many as you can! :D :D :D' while TOR's is unknown I do hope they DEVIATE from WoWs failtastic crafting system.

     

    And as someone previously said, WoW isn't the first, nor the best. The best, I think, was Ultima, then Everquest. Currently WoW ranks, in my opinion, alongside RuneScape, a crappy, but at least a tad more interesting browser based MMO. While I will not disagree that TOR does 'look' like a stylized WoW, and some of it's systems are fundamentally parts of MMO conventions, 'tis a fool notion to write it off as WoW with Lightsabers, because many things besides the cartoon look, the feel, and other things are not part of WoW, such a fully voiced MMO, and the other reasons listed and more. So, really, you're just taking shots at an MMO yet unreleased, that has things set in it already that set it apart from WoW in quite a few instances.

     

     

    Again, people seeing what they want to see, but at least this one admits, in his own way, that yes they are the same.

    Is it going to be a different game with different quests? Yes of course.

    Are the graphics and animations going to be different? Yes indeed.

    Is the skill tree, level progression, skill progression, attribute bonus gear going to be different? NO, there may be different attributes in the game, but what is the difference between +4 agilily and +4 dexterity? NOTHING BUT THE WORD USE, BUT IS THE SAME THING. CHECK YOUR THESAURUS!!!!

    This SWTOR system is a copycat system from WoW, I have seen the screenshots, trailers, and read what is going on in the making of the game.

    At the base level...you know...the stuff that makes the game (skills, leveling, attribute bonus gear, and more)??? Is almost exactly like World of Warcraft.  The best skill system that I have seen so far is where you have to GET A WEAPON AND USE IT TO GET GOOD WITH IT. AND YOU USE SKILLS IN ORDER TO STAY ALIVE, NOT +4 dexterity from you pair of jeans, +2 vitality from your socks???

    C'mon now. Can we have a game that is NOT a WoW clone? Please.......?

    SWTOR is WoW copy and pasted, but with different images.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Lol @ SWTORisWOW image You're funny, trolling really is an art. How can you totally reverse and ignore what the poster you quoted was saying and make it that he states that SWTOR is a 'WoW clone'? Totally hilarious.

     

    But maybe you have to realise that MMO's aren't something for you anymore, if you can only see WoW clones everywhere. Seems to me you've gotten allergic to the very mechanics and conventions that have come to define the MMO genre.

    '+4 agility, +4 dexterity'?

    Please. Have you been playing MMO's or even singleplayer RPG's before WoW or have you only jumped into the MMO genre with WoW and experienced nothing else?

     

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • thexratedthexrated Member UncommonPosts: 1,368

    Originally posted by ashfallen

    Originally posted by thexrated

    "People using the term 'WoW clone' also often focus on a few aspects they dislike of which they claim it being proof of a MMO being a 'WoW clone', ignoring all the other gameplay features that make that MMO very different from WoW."

    Majority of today's  MMORPGs, including EQ, WoW etc. are based on gameplay mechanics were developed from DikuMUD onwards. This was back in 1991. That's right. Many of you were not even born then :) Anyway...

    Below is a good link to read about DikuMUD and it's history relating to MMORPGs.


    What is a Diku?

     EQ1's designers used D&D as a baseline model for EQ1.

     


    Controversy over Everquest source code

    Everquest was created by players of DikuMUDs (specifically Forgotten Realms ones — Sojourn, Toril, Duris), and even had the same wording for many server-generated messages (”it begins to rain,” which was completely superfluous for a 3d game!). It played so similarly to its inspirations that some wondered if it actually was a DikuMUD, with graphics added on. Meridian 59 had DikuMUD players on its team. UO had three Diku players on the original core team (and a couple folks from other codebases). Of the early MMORPGs, UO played the least like a Diku, whereas the line of inheritance from Diku to Everquest and thence to World of Warcraft is completely undeniable.

    There was a minor controversy in late 1999 and early 2000 regarding whether the commercial MMORPG Everquest, developed by Verant Interactive, had derived its code from DikuMUD. It began at the Re:Game gaming conference in 1999, where the Director of Product Development for EverQuest, Bernard Yee, allegedly stated that EverQuest was "like Diku". He did not specify whether he meant the code itself was derived from DikuMUD, or if it just had a similar feeling. Some attendees had understood it to mean the former and reported to that effect on Usenet. After the Diku group requested clarification, Verant issued a sworn statement on March 17, 2000 that EverQuest was not based on DikuMUD source code, and was built from the ground up. In response, the DikuMUD team publicly stated that they find no reason whatsoever to believe any of the rumors that EverQuest was derived from DikuMUD code.

    The point is that it reassambled DikuMUD so closely and caused this controversy. Besides the link in the first post also mentions D&D's influence on MUDs as well.

     

    "The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182

    Originally posted by cyphers

    Lol @ SWTORisWOW image You're funny, trolling really is an art. How can you totally reverse and ignore what the poster you quoted was saying and make it that he states that SWTOR is a 'WoW clone'? Totally hilarious.

     

    But maybe you have to realise that MMO's aren't something for you anymore, if you can only see WoW clones everywhere. Seems to me you've gotten allergic to the very mechanics and conventions that have come to define the MMO genre.

    '+4 agility, +4 dexterity'?

    Please. Have you been playing MMO's or even singleplayer RPG's before WoW or have you only jumped into the MMO genre with WoW and experienced nothing else?

     

    Yeah, I was thinking the exact same thing. I guess I have to repeat myself. As I said before, features and similarities are not what dictates how a game plays. It's in how they present the game-play that will create the feel this game has. If it's like WOW so be it. However, just because it has similar features to WOW, does not mean it will play like WOW.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • ashfallenashfallen Member Posts: 186

    Originally posted by thexrated

    Originally posted by ashfallen

    Originally posted by thexrated

    "People using the term 'WoW clone' also often focus on a few aspects they dislike of which they claim it being proof of a MMO being a 'WoW clone', ignoring all the other gameplay features that make that MMO very different from WoW."

    Majority of today's  MMORPGs, including EQ, WoW etc. are based on gameplay mechanics were developed from DikuMUD onwards. This was back in 1991. That's right. Many of you were not even born then :) Anyway...

    Below is a good link to read about DikuMUD and it's history relating to MMORPGs.


    What is a Diku?

     EQ1's designers used D&D as a baseline model for EQ1.

     


    Controversy over Everquest source code

    Everquest was created by players of DikuMUDs (specifically Forgotten Realms ones — Sojourn, Toril, Duris), and even had the same wording for many server-generated messages (”it begins to rain,” which was completely superfluous for a 3d game!). It played so similarly to its inspirations that some wondered if it actually was a DikuMUD, with graphics added on. Meridian 59 had DikuMUD players on its team. UO had three Diku players on the original core team (and a couple folks from other codebases). Of the early MMORPGs, UO played the least like a Diku, whereas the line of inheritance from Diku to Everquest and thence to World of Warcraft is completely undeniable.

    There was a minor controversy in late 1999 and early 2000 regarding whether the commercial MMORPG Everquest, developed by Verant Interactive, had derived its code from DikuMUD. It began at the Re:Game gaming conference in 1999, where the Director of Product Development for EverQuest, Bernard Yee, allegedly stated that EverQuest was "like Diku". He did not specify whether he meant the code itself was derived from DikuMUD, or if it just had a similar feeling. Some attendees had understood it to mean the former and reported to that effect on Usenet. After the Diku group requested clarification, Verant issued a sworn statement on March 17, 2000 that EverQuest was not based on DikuMUD source code, and was built from the ground up. In response, the DikuMUD team publicly stated that they find no reason whatsoever to believe any of the rumors that EverQuest was derived from DikuMUD code.

    The point is that it reassambled DikuMUD so closely and caused this controversy. Besides the link in the first post also mentions D&D's influence on MUDs as well.

     

     good reading thanks for the link.  It is wiki, so I will take it with a grain of salt.

  • FaelsunFaelsun Member UncommonPosts: 500

    Originally posted by dougmysticey

     Good response. Personally, I think that anyone who claims a game = WOW Clone is ignorant of the genre and needs to do some real research befor making that bold statement since WOW in itself is not original in regards to play mechanics.

    Actually alot of us calling WOW clones exactly what they are have probably been playing mmorpgs since the 90s.

    If you honestly think there is any significant difference between Warhammer and WOW if anything it shows your inexperience.

    Case in point most WOW kids interested in TOR probably have never played UO, EVE, DAOC, AC, Lineage .. they probably never played any thing other than WOW ....possibly EQ2. I would wager most of them have not played Guild wars, stay away from PVP/Sandbox games like Fallen earth and such. So they put themselves in the unique position of being totally clueless.

    Even AION is too much for the WOW clone enthusiast to enjoy.

    I say WOW clone enthusiast for a reason, anything that the WOW fanbase sees as non wowlike they scowl at it like the plague, however the flipside to this is that they view copies of WOW in a different setting as vacation homes, they don't really want to live there just vacation until the next wow expansion comes out. 

    In effect WOW clone enthusiast are alot like your roomates live in girl friend. They come over, they try out the place, force you to watch Grays anatomy, then after they decided they have used up enough of your time, and free food, all rent free of course because she is just "Over" alot, she departs and goes back to WOW.

    This game will be a WOW clone for these reasons, your going to have 3 skill trees per class, your going to have the Trinity, useless job skills, follow the big question mark quest system, mandatory Raid progression, autotarget two the three button classes, faster than reality travel, PVP/Raid progression gear balance issues, flavor of the month classes, inflated gear to justify raid expansions which lead to increased burst which leads to talents being scaled for Gear, extra levels in the next expansion in response to gear stat inflation. The rift in pvp/progression balance will get so bad the patches will turn your classes upside down, which of course will lead to flavor of the month classes. You will end up with a game requiring no skill just a mammoth time investment so you can keyboard turn to your hearts desire.

    I also find it funny people who say they want a wow clone because they don't have the time to invest, usually dads with 4 kids kind of thing, but thats frankly garbage. What they really want is the ease of play, because WOW clones and time investment go hand in hand. You could spend less time on EVE and get more done then you could on WOW after 48 hours of constant play. What they really like is the ability to stand in the back of a raid for a few hours a day get some gear, and mindlessly grind it through for a few months so they can WASD TAB hotkey1 and hotkey 2 their way to victory. See WOW (Paladins) for examples of this type of player.

    The problem with WOW-Clones is this, why would you need TWO Wallmarts?

    The answer is You DONT so when they start building the mini wallmart across the street everyone thats been shopping at Wallmart might go check it out, ...... but after a few months they figure hey the sign is different but not much else and promptly return to Super Wallmart.

  • TarkaTarka Member Posts: 1,662

    Originally posted by Faelsun

    Actually alot of us calling WOW clones exactly what they are have probably been playing mmorpgs since the 90s.

    If you honestly think there is any significant difference between Warhammer and WOW if anything it shows your inexperience.

    << Cue argument based on nothing but assumptions and subjective opinions....blah....blah...blah >>


     It is at this point that you lost all credibility in your post, due to your obvious self-righteous and overly inflated persepective of yourself over others.  Also, well done on making assumptions about people you don't actually personally know. 

    All I get from your post is "I know more than you because I have been playing MMO's for years...".  Such claims made on an internet forum can neither be proven or disproven so your argument is just a load of subjective BS made to make you sound important.

    It is obvious that you cannot distinguish between traits of a genre and attributes found in any one MMO.  So instead you distill both down so that they become one and the same to the point whereby you infer that every themepark MMO is a "WoW Clone".  The fact that you insist on such a label just proves how ignorant you are to the differences between the games.

    Btw, just because a Ferrari has 4 wheels, a steering wheel, a chassis, an engine and ALL the other typical attributes found in a "car", would you say that a Ferrari is therefore a "Ford Clone"?

     

    Next time, if your going to enter into an argument, try using logic rather than assumption.

     

  • Bama1267Bama1267 Member UncommonPosts: 1,848

    Originally posted by Tarka

    Originally posted by Faelsun

    Actually alot of us calling WOW clones exactly what they are have probably been playing mmorpgs since the 90s.

    If you honestly think there is any significant difference between Warhammer and WOW if anything it shows your inexperience.

    << Cue argument based on nothing but assumptions and subjective opinions....blah....blah...blah >>

     

    Btw, just because a Ferrari has 4 wheels, a steering wheel, a chassis, an engine and ALL the other typical attributes found in a "car", would you say that a Ferrari is therefore a "Ford Clone"?

     

    Next time, if your going to enter into an argument, try using logic rather than assumption.

     If the inside of the Ferrari looked like a Ford  ... yeah. Kind of like the Mazda truck is a Ranger clone made by Ford. The guy is pretty spot on aside from assumptions of a person's home life and family. Most of these games look teh same and play the same. They add a couple of new things into the mix to make it "their game" , and that's it. SWTOR I dont expect to be any different because they have one goal in mind , and that is make loads of money. I can't wait to play, but to think it will be much different than WoW, I would be kidding myself.

  • dougmysticeydougmysticey Member Posts: 1,176

    Originally posted by Faelsun

    Originally posted by dougmysticey

     Good response. Personally, I think that anyone who claims a game = WOW Clone is ignorant of the genre and needs to do some real research befor making that bold statement since WOW in itself is not original in regards to play mechanics.

    Actually alot of us calling WOW clones exactly what they are have probably been playing mmorpgs since the 90s.

    I Here ya but WOW was, at least, my 4th  MMO when I was in the beta for it.

    If you honestly think there is any significant difference between Warhammer and WOW if anything it shows your inexperience.

    I never mentioned Warhammer but now that you have, Blizzard wanted to use the Wahammer universe when creating the Warcraft universe. They could not come to agreement but blizzard kept many of the similarities so they are VERY similar, especially in imagry.  WOW is a clone of many things. Blizzard refined existing genre standards such as quest givers, etc. WOW is actually more of a clone of Warhammer than the other way around even though Warhammer online came out years later than WOW.

    Case in point most WOW kids interested in TOR probably have never played UO, EVE, DAOC, AC, Lineage .. they probably never played any thing other than WOW ....possibly EQ2. I would wager most of them have not played Guild wars, stay away from PVP/Sandbox games like Fallen earth and such. So they put themselves in the unique position of being totally clueless.

    Completely agree

    Even AION is too much for the WOW clone enthusiast to enjoy.

    Agree again but AION has the element of asian grindfest that turns of many people.

    I say WOW clone enthusiast for a reason, anything that the WOW fanbase sees as non wowlike they scowl at it like the plague, however the flipside to this is that they view copies of WOW in a different setting as vacation homes, they don't really want to live there just vacation until the next wow expansion comes out. 

    In effect WOW clone enthusiast are alot like your roomates live in girl friend. They come over, they try out the place, force you to watch Grays anatomy, then after they decided they have used up enough of your time, and free food, all rent free of course because she is just "Over" alot, she departs and goes back to WOW.

    This game will be a WOW clone for these reasons, your going to have 3 skill trees per class, your going to have the Trinity, useless job skills, follow the big question mark quest system, mandatory Raid progression, autotarget two the three button classes, faster than reality travel, PVP/Raid progression gear balance issues, flavor of the month classes, inflated gear to justify raid expansions which lead to increased burst which leads to talents being scaled for Gear, extra levels in the next expansion in response to gear stat inflation. The rift in pvp/progression balance will get so bad the patches will turn your classes upside down, which of course will lead to flavor of the month classes. You will end up with a game requiring no skill just a mammoth time investment so you can keyboard turn to your hearts desire.

    Your right in some senses but this is where I differ in regards to WOW clones. All of the things you mention did not originate with WOW. They are part of the standard CRPG, MMORPG (fantasy at least) standard. Most of the Fantasy based single player RPGs have ran with this methodology long before WOW and will continue in that way long after. Case in point, Dragon Age: Origins.

    I also find it funny people who say they want a wow clone because they don't have the time to invest, usually dads with 4 kids kind of thing, but thats frankly garbage. What they really want is the ease of play, because WOW clones and time investment go hand in hand. You could spend less time on EVE and get more done then you could on WOW after 48 hours of constant play. What they really like is the ability to stand in the back of a raid for a few hours a day get some gear, and mindlessly grind it through for a few months so they can WASD TAB hotkey1 and hotkey 2 their way to victory. See WOW (Paladins) for examples of this type of player.

    I am a Dad with kids and a long hours job but I agree its garbage and I don't want that.

    The problem with WOW-Clones is this, why would you need TWO Wallmarts?

    The answer is You DONT so when they start building the mini wallmart across the street everyone thats been shopping at Wallmart might go check it out, ...... but after a few months they figure hey the sign is different but not much else and promptly return to Super Wallmart.

    image

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,232

    Originally posted by Faelsun

    Originally posted by dougmysticey

     Good response. Personally, I think that anyone who claims a game = WOW Clone is ignorant of the genre and needs to do some real research befor making that bold statement since WOW in itself is not original in regards to play mechanics.

    Actually alot of us calling WOW clones exactly what they are have probably been playing mmorpgs since the 90s.

    If you honestly think there is any significant difference between Warhammer and WOW if anything it shows your inexperience.

    Case in point most WOW kids interested in TOR probably have never played UO, EVE, DAOC, AC, Lineage .. they probably never played any thing other than WOW ....possibly EQ2. I would wager most of them have not played Guild wars, stay away from PVP/Sandbox games like Fallen earth and such. So they put themselves in the unique position of being totally clueless.

    Even AION is too much for the WOW clone enthusiast to enjoy.

    I say WOW clone enthusiast for a reason, anything that the WOW fanbase sees as non wowlike they scowl at it like the plague, however the flipside to this is that they view copies of WOW in a different setting as vacation homes, they don't really want to live there just vacation until the next wow expansion comes out. 

    In effect WOW clone enthusiast are alot like your roomates live in girl friend. They come over, they try out the place, force you to watch Grays anatomy, then after they decided they have used up enough of your time, and free food, all rent free of course because she is just "Over" alot, she departs and goes back to WOW.

    This game will be a WOW clone for these reasons, your going to have 3 skill trees per class, your going to have the Trinity, useless job skills, follow the big question mark quest system, mandatory Raid progression, autotarget two the three button classes, faster than reality travel, PVP/Raid progression gear balance issues, flavor of the month classes, inflated gear to justify raid expansions which lead to increased burst which leads to talents being scaled for Gear, extra levels in the next expansion in response to gear stat inflation. The rift in pvp/progression balance will get so bad the patches will turn your classes upside down, which of course will lead to flavor of the month classes. You will end up with a game requiring no skill just a mammoth time investment so you can keyboard turn to your hearts desire.

    I also find it funny people who say they want a wow clone because they don't have the time to invest, usually dads with 4 kids kind of thing, but thats frankly garbage. What they really want is the ease of play, because WOW clones and time investment go hand in hand. You could spend less time on EVE and get more done then you could on WOW after 48 hours of constant play. What they really like is the ability to stand in the back of a raid for a few hours a day get some gear, and mindlessly grind it through for a few months so they can WASD TAB hotkey1 and hotkey 2 their way to victory. See WOW (Paladins) for examples of this type of player.

    The problem with WOW-Clones is this, why would you need TWO Wallmarts?

    The answer is You DONT so when they start building the mini wallmart across the street everyone thats been shopping at Wallmart might go check it out, ...... but after a few months they figure hey the sign is different but not much else and promptly return to Super Wallmart.

    Hah,  living up to your name I see,  you honestly do fail son.  The differences to TOR outweigh the similarities in World of Warcraft.  There are skill trees focusing on multi skill systems,  but this relies heavily on lightside and darkside points which dictates what abilities open up to you.  WoW doesn't have that.

     

    The entire progression system is different,  you have choices to make on every quest.  You will have PvP for both warzones and the open world.  You will battle for control of cities and planets.  Don't have that in WoW.

     

    You have absolutely no idea how the gear will work in TOR, noone does.

     

    You have player housing, where your companions will also stay (wow doesn't have either of those)  and you'll also have space battles (again, WoW doesn't have that either).

     

    All classes can use the cover system in TOR, some classes can take cover to severely reduce or negate certain attacks.  Combat is choreographed, mobs and enemy players block attacks. (WoW? NOPE!!)

     

    There won't be any question marks over anyones head because all missions are given in flashpoints.  You seamlessly are brought into a flashpoint when you cross a thresh hold.  This can be seen in videos as well, y'know.. the ones you don't watch. All quests are fully voiced.  (WoW doesn't have that either).

     

    The other funny part is that you think MMOs take skill?  Thats funny,  no MMOs actually take skill, not true MMOs.  True MMOs all auto target,  and all you have to do is press buttons in the right order, anyone with a few hours of experience and common sense can figure out what order to press a button in,  and thats the way its been even before WoW.  You want a skill based game, go play a FPS, or a hybrid model MMO like Fallen Earth or Global Agenda.



  • FaelsunFaelsun Member UncommonPosts: 500

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    The other funny part is that you think MMOs take skill?  Thats funny,  no MMOs actually take skill, not true MMOs.  True MMOs all auto target,  and all you have to do is press buttons in the right order, anyone with a few hours of experience and common sense can figure out what order to press a button in,  and thats the way its been even before WoW.  You want a skill based game, go play a FPS, or a hybrid model MMO like Fallen Earth or Global Agenda.

    You're a prime example by those few statements of the type of poor player the WOW generation has produced, and the lowbrow gameplay you insist on. 

    You might as well be playing Farmville with Swords, actually EA owns farmville, really says alot.

  • Asmiroth20Asmiroth20 Member Posts: 346

        Faelsun, you fail, son...lol.  Seriously though, all you are doing is naming stuff that came before WoW and saying it is the properties of a "WoW clone", a term which get thrown around a lot and yet most people don't seem to understand their folly.  WoW is popular for a reason.  It's the most polished MMO to boot.  Think about it, it took from Everquest, UO and the other founding fathers and made it their own game.  The real success in that comes from them being able to take that stuff and make it so polished that it's hard to go back to anything else. 

        I'll admit that Blizzard has spoiled me in terms of being able to sit down and have fun.  Any other MMO I try out winds up to not feel as good.  In fact, some games feel broken when compared to WoW.  I'm sure there are many who share my sentiment.  To me, there isn't any real incentive to play a game that looks or feels shabby in comparison to WoW at the moment. 

        Times are changing, man.  Get with the program.  More and more people are joining our fraternity and with that things are going to be different.  I really don't see the point of sitting there doing some menial tasks for hours on end like I used to.  Seems rather counter-productive.  You need to look past "hardcore" or "casual" and see "gamer".  I believe if TOR is going to be as polished as WoW, it's going to be worth my money, even worth preordering the Collector's Edition.  That's me though.

  • pepsi1028pepsi1028 Member Posts: 471

    I think my post right below the OP's sums up what this thread should go to :)

    †Pepsi1028†

    PEPSI!!!!!
    Get out of your box already...

This discussion has been closed.