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The Old Republic = WOW with Lightsabers

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  • FaelsunFaelsun Member UncommonPosts: 500

    Originally posted by cyphers

    Conclusion:  poster SWTORisWOW is not objective, or does not know how to present his case with valid sounding arguments.

     

     

    Ok let us Validate something then, how well has every WOW clone done since WOW?

    What is the success rate or in this case mortality rate.

     

    At BEST they are either Clinically Dead or Waiting to Die. Negative 200,000 is the Average, actually thats the high point,

    The Warhammers, The Conans, The LOTR  Three Major IPs all with rabid fanbases, and were they able to churn out 6-11 million Subs by being a wow clone in a different image? No because ultimately no one can make WOW better than wow, WOW clones are just vacation spots away from WOW not permanent residences. What do you expect from a Genre dominated by 10-12 year olds, To make a proper WOW theme park your game has to force you to play like you have ADD.

     

    Case in point EVE online has better sub numbers than Every WOW clone put out to date. 

    DOFUS has better sub numbers than every WOW clone put out to Date.

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431

    Originally posted by Faelsun

    Originally posted by cyphers

    Conclusion:  poster SWTORisWOW is not objective, or does not know how to present his case with valid sounding arguments.

     

     

    Ok let us Validate something then, how well has every WOW clone done since WOW?

    What is the success rate or in this case mortality rate.

     

    At BEST they are either Clinically Dead or Waiting to Die. Negative 200,000 is the Average, actually thats the high point,

    The Warhammers, The Conans, The LOTR  Three Major IPs all with rabid fanbases, and were they able to churn out 6-11 million Subs by being a wow clone in a different image? No because ultimately no one can make WOW better than wow, WOW clones are just vacation spots away from WOW not permanent residences. What do you expect from a Genre dominated by 10-12 year olds, To make a proper WOW theme park your game has to force you to play like you have ADD.

     

    Case in point EVE online has better sub numbers than Every WOW clone put out to date. 

    DOFUS has better sub numbers than every WOW clone put out to Date.

     The problem with each of those games is that they were not WoW clones. WAR was nothing like WoW and failed with it's concept. AoC was absolutly nothing  like WoW with it's zones and billions of bugs. LOTRO was like WoW but had no PvP and much much slower combat animations that made it boring in comparison.

     

    SW:TOR will also not be a WoW clone if you look at the features. It will take a lot from WoW that works and expand on them. As well as having a real story with choice that matters for the first time in an MMO.  That is where the others fail. They didn't take what works from WoW and expand. They created a Themepark game that was lacking and had failed features.

     

    Not all Themepark games are WoW clones like many want to think. TOR will not be a WoW clone, but it will use some of WoW's features. TOR will be it's own Themepark game with new features. Weather it fails or not will be because of it's features and how they work as well as polish.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • FaelsunFaelsun Member UncommonPosts: 500

    Originally posted by artemisentr4

     The problem with each of those games is that they were not WoW clones. WAR was nothing like WoW and failed with it's concept. AoC was absolutly nothing  like WoW with it's zones and billions of bugs. LOTRO was like WoW but had no PvP and much much slower combat animations that made it boring in comparison.

     

    SW:TOR will also not be a WoW clone if you look at the features. It will take a lot from WoW that works and expand on them. As well as having a real story with choice that matters for the first time in an MMO.  That is where the others fail. They didn't take what works from WoW and expand. They created a Themepark game that was lacking and had failed features.

     

    Not all Themepark games are WoW clones like many want to think. TOR will not be a WoW clone, but it will use some of WoW's features. TOR will be it's own Themepark game with new features. Weather it fails or not will be because of it's features and how they work as well as polish.

    Thats BS everyone of those games are OBVIOUSLY WOW clones, whats not like wow, Themepark-check, Talent system-check, controls-check, gear stats, lead by the hand systems that the only real difference is race selection and name changes on the Classes. They didn't just borrow a few features the basically remade wow with a new graphics engine, and you know what no one bought it, no one wanted that. But you Themepark lovers dont care as long as you get your childish game that no one will play. This game will even out at about 200k  and thats a high estimate, then it can sit at the bottom with all the other WOW clones.

     

    Not all themeparks Before wow were WoW clones, but certainly every themepark AFTER WOW is a Clone.

     

    But really your avoiding the question and the TRUTH that I pointed out, EVERY WOW CLONE HAS FAILED.

    EVERY ONE. The only success stories have been from games that think out of the Box or cater to a new audience.

    Like I said EVE,by itself is probably Warhammer onlines population times 4. 

    Every WOW clone is a Disaster, this new WOW clone, kids will play it adults will run from it, population will spike to a few million in 3+ months by month 7 it will be at most 300k

    ITS JUST ANOTHER WOW CLONE the Brand name wont change the outcome.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by Faelsun

    Thats BS everyone of those games are OBVIOUSLY WOW clones, whats not like wow, Themepark-check, Talent system-check, controls-check, gear stats, lead by the hand systems that the only real difference is race selection and name changes on the Classes.

    You're doing nothing but describing the dominant features of the MMO genre, with some traits of a themepark.

    They didn't just borrow a few features the basically remade wow with a new graphics engine, and you know what no one bought it, no one wanted that. But you Themepark lovers dont care as long as you get your childish game that no one will play. This game will even out at about 200k  and thats a high estimate, then it can sit at the bottom with all the other WOW clones.

     Vague predictions again. I predict that it will even out at the 500k-1m population, and if it's really good even more.

    Not all themeparks Before wow were WoW clones, but certainly every themepark AFTER WOW is a Clone.

     MMO games before WoW can't be called WoW clones, that's beyond ridiculous.

    But really your avoiding the question and the TRUTH that I pointed out, EVERY WOW CLONE HAS FAILED.

    EVERY ONE. The only success stories have been from games that think out of the Box or cater to a new audience.

    Like I said EVE,by itself is probably Warhammer onlines population times 4. 

    Every WOW clone is a Disaster, this new WOW clone, kids will play it adults will run from it, population will spike to a few million in 3+ months by month 7 it will be at most 300k

    No, it's more accurate when you say that every MMO after WoW has failed, when you define success as having 500k-1m+ population. Actually before WoW 100k-300k population was common for MMO's and nothing to be ashamed of. It's bc of WoW that warped everyone's expectations to these strange new settings, where MMO's have to score 500k+ populations to even be considered mildly successful. Only MMO's that meet the criteria you've set are Farmville, Dofus, Runes of Magic, EVE Online and Aion.

    Aion is considered a 'WoW clone' too btw, by some.

    ITS JUST ANOTHER WOW CLONE the Brand name wont change the outcome.

    Basically what your posts show is that you hate themepark MMO's and love sandbox MMO's.

    There's nothing wrong with that.

    But MMO companies that do things differently and 'think out of the box' aren't automatically successful - Ryzom, Chronicles of Spellborn, APB - , and neither are themepark MMO's or 'WoW clones' as you call them an automatic fail.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • GylfiGylfi Member UncommonPosts: 706

    I love how people now got really mad at seeing MMO after MMO after MMO that works exactly like WoW with different names and graphics.

    I remember about 3 years ago i was the only one criticizing the cloning.

    Im so proud :)

  • rashherorashhero Member UncommonPosts: 510

    Originally posted by Gylfi

    I love how people now got really mad at seeing MMO after MMO after MMO that works exactly like WoW with different names and graphics.

    I remember about 3 years ago i was the only one criticizing the cloning.

    Im so proud :)

    You're such a revolutionary. Can't believe you noticed that MMOs keep operating the same. Next thing you know every FPS will start to work just like Duke Nukem or every RTS will start to work like Command and Conquer. That's my prediction anyway.

  • GylfiGylfi Member UncommonPosts: 706

    Originally posted by helthros

    Originally posted by Gylfi



    the final sentence is very very true.

    But atm we don't know exactly how story and choices will affect your experience. We don't know IF they will.

    So atm we know it works in the usual themepark way... i won't even say the WoW way, because it creates too many issues... similar/not similar parts, what was there before WoW, and so on... let's just say the themepark way, which consists of starting out in a map, looking for NPC's with their lovely exclamation marks above their heads, furiously click accept... then maybe a PUG, and then out we go to kill and kill and kill... then when we're done, we pass on to the next map, for more NPC's, more PUG's etc.

    The problem here is that there's no challenge... 

    You want to know why there's no challenge in these games? Because of the mass of people that NEED to be able to solo everything. It's REALLY difficult to make something challenging to each class individually, without spilling over into 'forced grouping'. Personally I prefer the latter any day of the week, but the numbers are in 'soloing'.

    what are you talking about? i said there's no challenge, why do you assume i want to cancel solo? Can't there be challenge in solo? Are you assuming that the only challenge there can ever be is the one in WoW, what with horribly boring raid tactics? I dont even like classes and combat, i think there can be challenge in a non-combat related way inside a solo quest. Everything is possible. Challenge(or as i call it, interaction) can be everywhere.

     

    -you don't need to explore, the quest marks will hand-hold you everywhere

    In some MMO's you still have to find the quest 'hubs' which sometimes might be in a remote camp or from a hermit npc somewhere. Quest marks don't ruin this, community websites do.

    never seen such a game. But exploring just to get quests is a bit boring. One should explore to find new cities(ill never forget my incredible adventure in Mortal Online, to find the little mountain city of Gaul'kor.. and then the exploration to find good minerals. But exploring to find people with exclamation marks that will just lead to more exclamation marks and gear... meh, isn't it a bit limited as a purpose?

    -you don't need to understand the world to get riches and gear... because quests give you both

    Now you're just trolling. In what game does someone doing solo quests make more money and get better gear than someone that understands the game? Come on now that's just a silly comment.

    What? The essence of a themepark game is that you do NOT need to understand the world, because it's too difficult and sandboxy, in order to get rich and fully geared... any themepark MMO only asks you to do quest after quest to become fully geared and buffed and equipped. You have a different more permissive concept of "understanding" the game, probably. When i say it i picture EVE's market, or Ultima Online, where you actually have to understand how economy, crafting, PvP politics work, to get some advancement... themepark destroyed that need, you only have to collect rats, kill bears and boars. :D

    -you don't need to FIND tasks to do, the QUEST is taken in a dumb way... in some RPG's you just converse with NPC's, and they only give HINTS about what they need, the problems of the area, and the player has to FIGURE out something's amiss and practically INVENT the task... and if his intuitions are correct he gets rewards.

    It was like this in WoW classic and it was awful. I guess to each his own right, everyone has different taste. I personally would not play an MMO where it was normal and supposed to be 'fun' to run around for 30-60 minutes trying to find the location to complete a quest. Again, so long as you have community sites, this aspect of MMO's is all but dead.

    you're right, but it's not just about running around to find the farming spot, that's dumb... it's more like reflection on what that town may need, like surverying the defenses(hey they need wood, let's go get it), or the food supplies(let's go hunt)... you don't need exclamation marks to figure this stuff, you don't need to click "accept", it's too much babysitting.

    that's themepark. That's what WOW managed to stigmatize(if people get angry at the word INVENTION).

    IF stories and choices actually affect this non-challenging babysitting experience then it's fine. 

    But atm we don't know that, so it's LEGITIMATE to cry at WoW with lightsabers

     

    Your gripe with the lack of challenge in MMO's (leveling up at least) seems to be misplaced. What's the most common question asked in any MMO forum by a new player? - "What class is best for solo?"

    The only way to achieve what you want is to make things difficult, but also make it so you can't group. Suddenly, it's not much of an MMO anymore. On the other hand, you could force grouping, but then you're limiting the amount of people in your game because the 'solo crowd' is quite a big proportion of the consumers.

    what? You can give challenges in anyway, grouping, ungrouping, regrouping, and it doesn't even need levels! Hell it doesn't even need combat.

    How? As i said challenge can be inside the plot! Read my blog, it's all there! http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/ColmMcAndrews/20100214/3861/Star_Wars_The_Old_Republic__Please_Save_Us_From_Ourselves.php

  • TarkaTarka Member Posts: 1,662

    Is TOR set on Azeroth?  Nope. Does TOR have Taurens, Kodos, Goblins, the Lich King, zepplins, the Foresaken, dragons, etc, etc?  Nope.  Therefore is it a clone of WoW?  Nope.  To be a clone it has to be an EXACT duplicate.  Which it most certainly isn't.

    In the same light, is a Ferrari car a "Ford Clone"?  Nope. 

    Now, will TOR use some features found in other games like a functioning and useable UI, a quest system, classes, travel and storyline progression?  Yes.  Does this make the game a clone?  Nope.  To be in a genre a product has to share similarities with other products in the same genre.  That doesn't make it a clone.

    When you distill the features of a game down to a handful of similarities with other games, you end up deliberately distorting the essence of the game to suit your own argument.  Therefore you're argument is downright pathetically subjective.  If you don't like the game OP then don't play it.  Just stop with the "this is gunna be another failed WoWclone, just with lightsabers" tired arguments because essentially you're making yourself look like a fool.

    Oh yes, and one last thing about your beloved Eve Online OP, looking at whats transpiring in their forums it's possible that Eve has had its day. 

  • pmaurapmaura Member UncommonPosts: 530

    well the op lost all credence with me, why becuase wows crafting system is no were near the worst is it the best probably not, but its not bad and its fun.

    you want shit total shit craftingg

    Age of Conan.

    followed by

    Warhammer

     

    now those are bad crafting. WoWs is completly servivable.

  • DraneanDranean Member Posts: 77

    I want to bet that the OP will still play the game and will actually enjoy it. In meanwhile we will never hear from him again...

  • TarkaTarka Member Posts: 1,662

    Originally posted by Dranean

    I want to bet that the OP will still play the game and will actually enjoy it. In meanwhile we will never hear from him again...

     There is a good chance you're spot on there.  Meanwhile the OP can take his second login:  SWTORisWOW with him.

  • GylfiGylfi Member UncommonPosts: 706

    Originally posted by rashhero

    Originally posted by Gylfi

    I love how people now got really mad at seeing MMO after MMO after MMO that works exactly like WoW with different names and graphics.

    I remember about 3 years ago i was the only one criticizing the cloning.

    Im so proud :)

    You're such a revolutionary. Can't believe you noticed that MMOs keep operating the same. Next thing you know every FPS will start to work just like Duke Nukem or every RTS will start to work like Command and Conquer. That's my prediction anyway.

    Heh i will say the thing i keep saying everywhere and ive been saying for the last years. How come you guys all think the same thoughts? Are you cloned too? Maybe you should try to think with your head instead with what the common mob say.

    You need to learn the difference between reusing parts that belong to a genre, and copying the EXACT SAME gameplay.

    Example:

    one MMO: one character goes to town to get gear and money: he goes to the market place, there's players and NPC's selling and buying. Players need armor and swords, Npc's need food. You are an armorsmith and you can use your club. You go out of town to kill wild boars, then on your way back to town you mine metal and wood. You're back in town, you enter the SMITHS quarters. you practice with the tools, you melt stones, you get minerals, you cut the wood, you even use leather from the wildboars. So you make a shield and some plates of armor. You sell everythingt, you get money. You go to a fine vendor of weapons, you buy them. 

    Another MMO: one character goes to town to get gear money: he surveys defenses, food supplies and the number of troops. First he goes to chop wood to reinforce those turrets, then he hunts a bit, then he goes to the closest city to PLACE a demand for more soldiers to come defend the smaller town. He delivers food and wood, he gets money and gear.

     

    WoW: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat.

    Warhammer: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat.

    Fallen Earth: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat.

    Everquest2: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat. 

    Champions online: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat. 

    Tabula Rasa: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the designated place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat.

    ---

    NOTICE the differences between the BASIC structure which is going to town to get riches and gear. That belongs to the GENRE, it's a typical cliché of an RPG and a MMO. The fact that player wants riches and gear, the fact that he goes to collect stuff and take em back for a reward. The difference is HOW. In the first example the player goes to the market place to see players' needs. In the second example he's inspecting supplies and the state of defenses. He doesn't need the stupid NPC's telling him what to do and where to go. He can figure it out by himself. The player can figure both the needs AND the place where those needs can be satisfied. While in a themepark clone he doesn't have to, cause he'll be told.

    That's the difference between "genre standards" and "WoW standards" you people never understood.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by Gylfi

    Originally posted by AlexTheTall

    We will make something clear. SWTOR and WoW are both MMORPGs so they will obviously share some ideas, because it's the same genre of a game.

     

    But, the lore, the game play, the goals, how to achieve something, the planets, the maps, the weapon, the gear, the fact there's no Elves, Orcs, etc, the classes, the races, etc. ARE VERY DIFFERENT... So it's not WoW, it's not EQ2... It's fucking SWTOR an MMORPG...

    I disagree with most of the people here(they're clearly biased fanbois who refuse reality) but especially with you :)

    The "genre" has 2 requirements, being constantly online and a few hundreds of players playing simultaneously.

    So your argument is horribly wrong.

    Plus, WoW and EVE also are MMO's, but they share near-to nothing.

    And last, all the details you said, different names, different graphics and no elves aren't substantial differences... that's why people say "wow with lightsabers" and similar sentences.

    I think every MMO should be unique just as every single player is... sure, almost every game is inspired by others, but in the case of MMO's it's not just superficial inspiration, it's shameless carbon copy, over and over and over and over for the last 5 years.

    The genre of the MMO's is the most rotten of all the computer games, of all media in history, and brings shame to EVERY single videogamer for its HORRIBLE reputation.

    And you(people) are actually defending this. You should hide your heads in the dirt, you are not only content slaves of the marketing bastards, but you're being scammed and you don't know it.

    Well, you're clearly a themepark MMO hater, that much is clear.

    By your same definition of no substantial differences, all shooters and (action) RPG's are carbon copies and clones from eachother, and most of the MMO's before WoW were clones from eachother.

     

    Everyone wants new and different things in other MMO's. But there's a reason why Blizzard copied a lot of gameplay elements from former MMO's to the point of being a 'EQ clone'. It's the same reason why they kept a lot the same for SC2 (maybe even too much). Because it's about gameplay elements that are liked and accepted as working.

    It's not only for MMO's, the same approach of copying or imitating successful gameplay mechanics is being used for other gaming genres as shooters, RTS (base building, tech trees), RPG's (D&D mechanics), you name it.

    If gamers would use the same attitude towards those gaming genres that they're using for the MMO genre, then they'd call most of the games clones from other former games. CoD, BF2, MW2, not that much has changed the last 5 years with shooters from back then.

     

    What's really happening is that a number of MMO gamers are craving something different, something new, so much that they tend to ignore the differences between one MMO to another, and focus on the similarities. It's not actual accurate classification that leads their argumentation and viewpoint, but their boredom with the whole MMO genre. The result being that if they like what they see from a game, then they'll not call the game a WoW clone no matter the similarities in gameplay mechanics, if they don't like what they see from a current or new game then they call it a WoW clone no matter the differences.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • viditorumviditorum Member Posts: 60

    I find it rather funny that when WOW came out it had "borrowed " from other MMO's that were it's predicessor. Yet we didnt sit here flaming WOW as a clone of those MMO titles. Any MMO developer would be crazy not to try and incorperate features from existing MMO titles into their own. Why would any one want to reinvent the wheel every time the built a car. It makes no sence for game developers not to utilize everything that they have at thier disposal and if that is using proven tools then do it. So I say stop calling them clones and give them credit for being intelligent developers. Now does this meen that TOR is going to work well if it uses a tool set based on WOW or any other MMO , well until it comes out or the NDA is lifted we likely will not know. I for one am waiting with baited breath for TOR to be released and hope it all works fluidly. I also hope that it presents itself in an enjoyable format regardless of what toolsets have been utilized. We need to just give the games coming out a chance regardless of how much of a "clone " they may be

  • rashherorashhero Member UncommonPosts: 510

    Originally posted by Gylfi

    Originally posted by rashhero


    Originally posted by Gylfi

    I love how people now got really mad at seeing MMO after MMO after MMO that works exactly like WoW with different names and graphics.

    I remember about 3 years ago i was the only one criticizing the cloning.

    Im so proud :)

    You're such a revolutionary. Can't believe you noticed that MMOs keep operating the same. Next thing you know every FPS will start to work just like Duke Nukem or every RTS will start to work like Command and Conquer. That's my prediction anyway.

    You need to learn the difference between reusing parts that belong to a genre, and copying the EXACT SAME gameplay.

    Example:

    one MMO: one character goes to town to get gear and money: he goes to the market place, there's players and NPC's selling and buying, you DON'T SEE any exclamation marks, players and NPC's needs are well visible. Players need armor and swords, Npc's need food. You are an armorsmith and you can use your club. You go out of town to kill wild boars, then on your way back to town you mine metal and wood. You're back in town, you enter the SMITHS quarters. you practice with the tools, you melt stones, you get minerals, you cut the wood, you even use leather from the wildboars. So you make a shield and some plates of armor. You sell everythingt, you get money. You go to a fine vendor of weapons, you buy them. 

    Another MMO: one character goes to town to get gear money: he surveys defenses, food supplies and the number of troops. First he goes to chop wood to reinforce those turrets, then he hunts a bit, then he goes to the closest city to PLACE a demand for more soldiers to come defend the smaller town. He delivers food and wood, he gets money and gear.

     

    WoW: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat.

    Warhammer: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat.

    Fallen Earth: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat.

    Everquest2: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat. 

    Champions online: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat. 

    Tabula Rasa: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the designated place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat.

    ---

    NOTICE the differences between the BASIC structure which is going to town to get riches and gear. That belongs to the GENRE, it's a typical cliché of an RPG and a MMO. The fact that player wants riches and gear, the fact that he goes to collect stuff and take em back for a reward. The difference is HOW. In the first example the player goes to the market place to see players' needs. In the second example he's inspecting supplies and the state of defenses. He doesn't need the stupid NPC's telling him what to do and where to go. He can figure it out by himself. The player can figure both the needs AND the place where those needs can be satisfied. While in a themepark clone he doesn't have to, cause he'll be told.

    That's the difference between "genre standards" and "WoW standards" you people never understood.

    If questing is all you're doing in an MMO. Sure, that's what you'll get. It's easy and to the point. Most people know that if they want something more complex and indepth, they have other options. Like Eve for myself.

    As far as mainstream games like WoW go, nothing wrong with making them as similar as possible. Makes it easier to transition from playing one game to another. They're not bad games because of this.

  • CuroudoCuroudo Member Posts: 10

    to all people calling out every signle mmo that's been released after WoW is a wowclone... cmon, you do know that WoW is a clone from some other game. I am so annoyed that the whole mmo genre is defined by WoW nowadays!

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,232

    Originally posted by Gylfi

    Originally posted by rashhero


    Originally posted by Gylfi

    I love how people now got really mad at seeing MMO after MMO after MMO that works exactly like WoW with different names and graphics.

    I remember about 3 years ago i was the only one criticizing the cloning.

    Im so proud :)

    You're such a revolutionary. Can't believe you noticed that MMOs keep operating the same. Next thing you know every FPS will start to work just like Duke Nukem or every RTS will start to work like Command and Conquer. That's my prediction anyway.

    Heh i will say the thing i keep saying everywhere and ive been saying for the last years. How come you guys all think the same thoughts? Are you cloned too? Maybe you should try to think with your head instead with what the common mob say.

    You need to learn the difference between reusing parts that belong to a genre, and copying the EXACT SAME gameplay.

    Example:

    one MMO: one character goes to town to get gear and money: he goes to the market place, there's players and NPC's selling and buying. Players need armor and swords, Npc's need food. You are an armorsmith and you can use your club. You go out of town to kill wild boars, then on your way back to town you mine metal and wood. You're back in town, you enter the SMITHS quarters. you practice with the tools, you melt stones, you get minerals, you cut the wood, you even use leather from the wildboars. So you make a shield and some plates of armor. You sell everythingt, you get money. You go to a fine vendor of weapons, you buy them. 

    Another MMO: one character goes to town to get gear money: he surveys defenses, food supplies and the number of troops. First he goes to chop wood to reinforce those turrets, then he hunts a bit, then he goes to the closest city to PLACE a demand for more soldiers to come defend the smaller town. He delivers food and wood, he gets money and gear.

     

    WoW: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat.

    Warhammer: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat.

    Fallen Earth: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat.

    Everquest2: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat. 

    Champions online: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat. 

    Tabula Rasa: one character goes to town to get gear and money: seeks exclamation marks above the heads of NPC's, clicks them, skips the text, looks at the rewards, pushes the lovely ACCEPT button, runs to the designated place, collects the kills, goes back to town, collects the reward, equips them, rinse and repeat.

    ---

    NOTICE the differences between the BASIC structure which is going to town to get riches and gear. That belongs to the GENRE, it's a typical cliché of an RPG and a MMO. The fact that player wants riches and gear, the fact that he goes to collect stuff and take em back for a reward. The difference is HOW. In the first example the player goes to the market place to see players' needs. In the second example he's inspecting supplies and the state of defenses. He doesn't need the stupid NPC's telling him what to do and where to go. He can figure it out by himself. The player can figure both the needs AND the place where those needs can be satisfied. While in a themepark clone he doesn't have to, cause he'll be told.

    That's the difference between "genre standards" and "WoW standards" you people never understood.

    Sorry bud, but what games on your list from WoW down have that you seem to not like is ... CONTENT.   Yup, these games have quests, they have rewards, and they have a focus.  Sandbox games that you think are the end all be all of MMOs,  do not.  They give you a world to splash around in,  and yet,  the only sandbox style MMO that seems to be worth anything currently is EvE which,  after many years managed to get 1/4 of the subscribers most of those "clones" had on launch.

     

    Perhaps not all of those games retained subscribers,  but most of those games are now 6 to 8 years old.  They all follow a theme park model, save for Fallen Earth which is much less of a theme park.  

     

    Theme park MMOs run on a content based engine, where you go through and get items and experience through questing rather then grinding, like, oh.... say DarkFall.  You may think going to quest after quest is boring,  but I think after killing the 700th goblin to increase my melee skill 1/1000th of a point is just as boring.

     

    Thankfully TOR will break this mold and actually give a good choice based storyline with more content then you can shake 3 sticks and a ferret at.    Looking at it from the outside some people just don't realize how a well made storyline, or a higher level of polish,  or hell,  just a different flow of gameplay can really change a simple game from being a quest grind, into being something you can't stop playing to find out what happens next.



  • karat76karat76 Member UncommonPosts: 1,000

    Even if it WoW with lightsabers as long as the game is enjoyable and does not turn into a seond job then it is at least worth trying.

  • rashherorashhero Member UncommonPosts: 510

    Originally posted by karat76

    Even if it WoW with lightsabers as long as the game is enjoyable and does not turn into a seond job then it is at least worth trying.

    Exactly. While I've played WoW and even enjoyed it at times, I'm a huge Star Wars nut. So if the gameplay is nice and smooth and easy to follow like WoW but within the SW universe, I'm all for it.

    I already work 13-14 hours a day, I have a wife and a newborn baby. On my down time I don't want to have to worry about a new or complex system.

  • GylfiGylfi Member UncommonPosts: 706

    Originally posted by cyphers

    Well, you're clearly a themepark MMO hater, that much is clear.

    By your same definition of no substantial differences, all shooters and (action) RPG's are carbon copies and clones from eachother, and most of the MMO's before WoW were clones from eachother.

    that's not true at all! Is planetside like WoW? Is Daoc like WoW? Is anarchy online like WoW?

    Sure, some single player RPG's share principles, but almost no one replicates the EXACT same gameplay, unlike AoC, Warhammer online, Aion, Lotro. And yeah some games are Diablo clones, everyone knows that. But do you play them for months? No, they're over in a couple of weeks, so it doesn't bother as it does in MMO's.

    Everyone wants new and different things in other MMO's. But there's a reason why Blizzard copied a lot of gameplay elements from former MMO's to the point of being a 'EQ clone'. It's the same reason why they kept a lot the same for SC2 (maybe even too much). Because it's about gameplay elements that are liked and accepted as working.

    First of all they're not SO liked since those games are failures... why should they play a MMO that "tries" to be like WoW, if they have the original one? It's stupid marketing choices that end up failing because MOST of us need NEW games.

    It's not only for MMO's, the same approach of copying or imitating successful gameplay mechanics is being used for other gaming genres as shooters, RTS (base building, tech trees), RPG's (D&D mechanics), you name it.

    RTS mechanics aren't used THAT much, see Relic. Relic decided to DITCH the "base building scheme" for a more tactical approach. They INVENTED everything from scratch, they "invented" the concept of reinforcements, they even put ethical choices in their game(chaos rising) for god sake.

    Every RTS shares few principles but STILL dares to propose the designers' IDEA of them. In MMO's this doesn't happen anymore, they don't just share basic principles, they repeat the EXACT same gameplay, in EVERY single point.

    If gamers would use the same attitude towards those gaming genres that they're using for the MMO genre, then they'd call most of the games clones from other former games. CoD, BF2, MW2, not that much has changed the last 5 years with shooters from back then.

    Well i'm not good at shooters but as far as i know Battlefield is a base vs base online game, what does it have to do with MW2? And is Mass Effect the same as CoD? is Metro? Is stalker? Is F.E.A.R? No.

    What's really happening is that a number of MMO gamers are craving something different, something new, so much that they tend to ignore the differences between one MMO to another, and focus on the similarities. It's not actual accurate classification that leads their argumentation and viewpoint, but their boredom with the whole MMO genre. The result being that if they like what they see from a game, then they'll not call the game a WoW clone no matter the similarities in gameplay mechanics, if they don't like what they see from a current or new game then they call it a WoW clone no matter the differences.

    I HOPE, when you're referring to "boredom with genre", you mean the "themepark genre", because otherwise you're including sandbox simulations which are completely different from WoW(see Perpetuum, Mortal Online, EVE and hopefully WoDo).

    The fact is that the differences in the new MMO's are laughable. Warhammer was "supposed" to be focused on PvP, but its PvP is one big alterac valley of WoW, AND the quests in this game, completely identical to WoW, are so pervasive that take up 90% of the players' activities.

    You must understand the difference between genre standards and WoW standards, which is like the difference between story and plot.

    "A character seeks quests to become rich" is a genre standard(rpg's).

    "A character clicks on NPC's, a window opens, he reads or skips the text, sees the rewards, pushes accept button, goes to the designated place, collects kills, returns to the NPC" is NOT a genre standard, NO! It's WoW standard, it's a standard that we've been seeing identical for the last 5 years.

  • karat76karat76 Member UncommonPosts: 1,000

    Originally posted by rashhero

    Originally posted by karat76

    Even if it WoW with lightsabers as long as the game is enjoyable and does not turn into a seond job then it is at least worth trying.

    Exactly. While I've played WoW and even enjoyed it at times, I'm a huge Star Wars nut. So if the gameplay is nice and smooth and easy to follow like WoW but within the SW universe, I'm all for it.

    I already work 13-14 hours a day, I have a wife and a newborn baby. On my down time I don't want to have to worry about a new or complex system.

    Exactly family and work is severely limiting to free time. Not saying there shouldn't be some games for those with less of a full real life but ToR appears to be more casual friendly. Being casual friendly is not a reason to bash a game just find a game that fits your style. I'd be happy if WoW would give 5 man versions of all their raid dungeons even if they decrease the loot chance.So sick of raiding end game mentality.

  • OscillateOscillate Member UncommonPosts: 238

    ... and these idiotic post never cease. The only likeness that I am seeing right off the bat, is Blizzard's decision to steal the questing system of SWTOR.

    image
    (Akiraosc)

  • GylfiGylfi Member UncommonPosts: 706

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Sorry bud, but what games on your list from WoW down have that you seem to not like is ... CONTENT.   Yup, these games have quests, they have rewards, and they have a focus.  Sandbox games that you think are the end all be all of MMOs,  do not.  They give you a world to splash around in,  and yet,  the only sandbox style MMO that seems to be worth anything currently is EvE which,  after many years managed to get 1/4 of the subscribers most of those "clones" had on launch.

    Point is i don't just believe it's "content". It's not just quests, not just rewards, it's quests and rewards done in the EXACT same way as WoW. Those quests and rewards CAN be provided in probably a THOUSAND new ways. But they don't, they just reuse WoW's stigmatized way of "D-click(or R-click) the NPC, a window opens up, little description, little summary, then the rewards, then the accept button, then you go outside, farm a little or push a button(or another NPC), then come back and get riches". THAT is what's wrong with MMO cloning, not that they give the GENERIC concept of quests and rewards but that EACH of the modern MMO's does it EXACTLY like WoW in everyway.

    For the rest, well, i disagree, i think Mortal Online is a simulation wit lots of potential. You're just picking up the common voice, you didn'[t bother to actually try those games, im sure :)

    Theme park MMOs run on a content based engine, where you go through and get items and experience through questing rather then grinding, like, oh.... say DarkFall.  You may think going to quest after quest is boring,  but I think after killing the 700th goblin to increase my melee skill 1/1000th of a point is just as boring.

    That's not true at all! I don't find "going quest after quest"to be boring, because then i'd be stating the whole RPG genre is boring! That'd be nuts! What i think it's boring is the way WoW does it(see above), which is repeated in the other games in the EXACT same way.

    Quests can still be fun if done in a new way. Anarchy Online had a "terminal" in which missions were generated... it was terrible but at least it was different. Quests can appear in many ways, why do you think the WoW way is the ONLY way, why doyou(and many others) confuse the WoW way with the generic meaning of "getting quests". You fail to realize that "exclamation marks and window accept/decline button" is not "archetype", it's the WOW style, that's what everyone always means when he says WoW clone(and YOU all reply with "it's the genre", or "WoW didn't invent those standards"). That's the source of misunderstanding, that naysayers mean the ACTUAL gameplay, you guys mean the generic concept.

    Thankfully TOR will break this mold and actually give a good choice based storyline with more content then you can shake 3 sticks and a ferret at.    Looking at it from the outside some people just don't realize how a well made storyline, or a higher level of polish,  or hell,  just a different flow of gameplay can really change a simple game from being a quest grind, into being something you can't stop playing to find out what happens next.

    LEt's pray that it will. And i underlined the ways in which it can in my most recent blog post of gamasutra. They say it's not about collecting rats anymore. But what's the difference? It would still be about a lot of kills that are not counted and a final assassination in the end dressed with a lot of blabla. Big change!

    Even if it has a GOOD and deep story, answer me this:

    WHERE IS THE CHALLENGE? In "enduring" the story, straining your gentle mind to follow it? I HOPE NOT!!!

     

  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member EpicPosts: 10,232

    Originally posted by Gylfi

    Originally posted by maskedweasel

    Sorry bud, but what games on your list from WoW down have that you seem to not like is ... CONTENT.   Yup, these games have quests, they have rewards, and they have a focus.  Sandbox games that you think are the end all be all of MMOs,  do not.  They give you a world to splash around in,  and yet,  the only sandbox style MMO that seems to be worth anything currently is EvE which,  after many years managed to get 1/4 of the subscribers most of those "clones" had on launch.

    Point is i don't just believe it's "content". It's not just quests, not just rewards, it's quests and rewards done in the EXACT same way as WoW. Those quests and rewards CAN be provided in probably a THOUSAND new ways. But they don't, they just reuse WoW's stigmatized way of "D-click(or R-click) the NPC, a window opens up, little description, little summary, then the rewards, then the accept button, then you go outside, farm a little or push a button(or another NPC), then come back and get riches". THAT is what's wrong with MMO cloning, not that they give the GENERIC concept of quests and rewards but that EACH of the modern MMO's does it EXACTLY like WoW in everyway.

    For the rest, well, i disagree, i think Mortal Online is a simulation wit lots of potential. You're just picking up the common voice, you didn'[t bother to actually try those games, im sure :)

    Theme park MMOs run on a content based engine, where you go through and get items and experience through questing rather then grinding, like, oh.... say DarkFall.  You may think going to quest after quest is boring,  but I think after killing the 700th goblin to increase my melee skill 1/1000th of a point is just as boring.

    That's not true at all! I don't find "going quest after quest"to be boring, because then i'd be stating the whole RPG genre is boring! That'd be nuts! What i think it's boring is the way WoW does it(see above), which is repeated in the other games in the EXACT same way.

    Quests can still be fun if done in a new way. Anarchy Online had a "terminal" in which missions were generated... it was terrible but at least it was different. Quests can appear in many ways, why do you think the WoW way is the ONLY way, why doyou(and many others) confuse the WoW way with the generic meaning of "getting quests". You fail to realize that "exclamation marks and window accept/decline button" is not "archetype", it's the WOW style.

    Thankfully TOR will break this mold and actually give a good choice based storyline with more content then you can shake 3 sticks and a ferret at.    Looking at it from the outside some people just don't realize how a well made storyline, or a higher level of polish,  or hell,  just a different flow of gameplay can really change a simple game from being a quest grind, into being something you can't stop playing to find out what happens next.

    LEt's pray that it will. And i underlined the ways in which it can in my most recent blog post of gamasutra. They say it's not about collecting rats anymore. But what's the difference? It would still be about a lot of kills that are not counted and a final assassination in the end dressed with a lot of blabla. Big change!

    Even if it has a GOOD and deep story, answer me this:

    WHERE IS THE CHALLENGE? In "enduring" the story, straining your gentle mind to follow it? I HOPE NOT!!!

     

    The WoW model is not the WoW model,  its the RPG MODEL.  Look at games like Masseffect,  Borderlands,  NWN 1 - 2,  the Elder Scroll Series.   You walk around, pick up quests, complete them, and receive a reward.  A big exclamation mark over someones head or not, doesn't change this fact.  So you pick up quests from a terminal instead of walking over to talk to someone just standing around,  wheres the big difference?   So you want them to mask it instead with different names, or create a gimmick to appeal to those that don't like yellow exclamation marks?  Call them things like "missions" or "events".  

     

    Yes that means that this form of questing has been used time and again, but it didn't start at MMOs and it hasn't stopped there.  You say that everything is the same with these "clones"  but proportionally the same could easily be said about all games of similar genres.  All racing games seem to have the same components.  All Basketball games seem to work the same way.  I've never seen a 3D fighter change the style in which you move, attack, and play much either.  I guess Tekken3 must have been a virtua fighter clone.

     

    The point I'm making is that, you will have quests in TOR.  No you won't have quest givers with exclamation points everywhere, instead you have flashpoints,  ones in which you walk into and it starts up a conversation with the NPC inside.  You make your choices from that point forward, laying out what needs to be done and giving you options to choose to respond.  In many ways this is not just a cosmetic difference in the way missions are being handled.  

     

    On a side note,  if you are "enduring" the story, then you aren't playing to enjoy the story.  The story of your character will be nothing but pure enjoyment for me.  I could just as easily run through the world and do group quests all day if I wanted to in TOR,  but I'm playing this game to be immersed.. not do "endure" the "painful" quests to get to the purported end game like all the games before.   BioWare is giving us content WORTH taking your time to play through, with decisions that effect how the world views me, and how my skills progress.  I'm not playing just to get through it,    IF I'm playing it,  its for no other reason then for my enjoyment.

     

    Wheres the challenge you ask?  Well shouldn't that be in the actual gameplay and not in the story telling.  Nowhere does it say a quest that starts by simply telling you where to go won't have objectives that will require  time, skill or be challenging .  For players that don't get that from PvE, you have plenty of PvP to deal with.   Just because someone points out your start and end point on a map doesn't mean the road getting there won't be challenging or adventurous.  



  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by Gylfi

    Originally posted by cyphers

    By your same definition of no substantial differences, all shooters and (action) RPG's are carbon copies and clones from eachother, and most of the MMO's before WoW were clones from eachother.

    that's not true at all! Is planetside like WoW? Is Daoc like WoW? Is anarchy online like WoW?

    Please. By the definitions you and other 'WoW clone' callers are using, WoW, DaoC, AC and some others were clearly EQ clones, the similarities were far larger than the differences.

    Sure, some single player RPG's share principles, but almost no one replicates the EXACT same gameplay, unlike AoC, Warhammer online, Aion, Lotro. And yeah some games are Diablo clones, everyone knows that. But do you play them for months? No, they're over in a couple of weeks, so it doesn't bother as it does in MMO's.

    Here you hit the point at the right spot. It's the excessive amount of playtime invested in MMO's compared to other gaming genres that make gamers getting bored with some of the conventions and gameplay aspects that defined the MMO genre.

    It doesn't mean that many games in other gaming genres aren't clones from eachother when you look at the similarities, it's just that gamers play it too shortly to really care.

    It's the same reason why boredom and getting fed up with some gameplay mechanics run a far higher risk in the genre of MMO's than in other gaming genres: usually other games is being played for 30-80 hrs, but if the same games would be played for hundreds to thousands of hours like it happens with MMO's, a far larger group of gamers would get fed up with some of the defining gameplay mechanics of that genre too and crave for something new or different.

    Everyone wants new and different things in other MMO's. But there's a reason why Blizzard copied a lot of gameplay elements from former MMO's to the point of being a 'EQ clone'. It's the same reason why they kept a lot the same for SC2 (maybe even too much). Because it's about gameplay elements that are liked and accepted as working.

    First of all they're not SO liked since those games are failures... why should they play a MMO that "tries" to be like WoW, if they have the original one? It's stupid marketing choices that end up failing because MOST of us need NEW games.

    The problem wasn't that they tried to be like WoW, but they didn't have the elements that made WoW successful, which was polish, accessibility, and enough fun and diverse gameplay content (microgratifications included) that made you want to play for months after months. Most players SAY that they want NEW, different games, but what they REALLY want is new MMO's that are a mix of old and new, having enough new elements that their craving for something new is satisfied but also lots of stuff that they recognize and are familiar with from other MMO's they played.

    If that wasn't the case, that they want some new stuff but also lots of old familiar gameplay, then a far larger group of MMO gamers would be trying out and give the other MMO's that are around a chance, there are enough around that are very different from WoW or its format, sandbox MMO, others, you name it. Examples: FE, GW, City of Heroes, EVE, Darkfall, Mortal Online, APB, D&D Online, Ryzom, Chronicles of Spellborn.

    Enough different and still enjoyable MMO's to pick from and give a chance. Yet most MMO gamers dabble only a little into other MMO's and then run quickly back to their old MMO that they said they'd gotten bored from, even if those other MMO's offered different gameplay.

     

    It's not only for MMO's, the same approach of copying or imitating successful gameplay mechanics is being used for other gaming genres as shooters, RTS (base building, tech trees), RPG's (D&D mechanics), you name it.

    RTS mechanics aren't used THAT much, see Relic. Relic decided to DITCH the "base building scheme" for a more tactical approach. They INVENTED everything from scratch, they "invented" the concept of reinforcements, they even put ethical choices in their game(chaos rising) for god sake.

    True. The last 3 years all kinds of different RTS games. Before that, the RTS genre was dominated by the format that the Command & Conquer series, SC and WC2 adhered to for 10 years, up to the point that many people complained that so little had changed in the RTS genre.

    I'd say that the MMO genre is now where the RTS genre was 3-4 years ago. I think a number of the new MMO's will breathe some fresh air into the genre.

    Every RTS shares few principles but STILL dares to propose the designers' IDEA of them. In MMO's this doesn't happen anymore, they don't just share basic principles, they repeat the EXACT same gameplay, in EVERY single point.

    Not true, and a gross overstatement that you make. Each MMO brings its own different gameplay mechanics to the table, besides their adoption of the gameplay mechanics that have ruled the genre for the last 10 years.

    If gamers would use the same attitude towards those gaming genres that they're using for the MMO genre, then they'd call most of the games clones from other former games. CoD, BF2, MW2, not that much has changed the last 5 years with shooters from back then.

    Well i'm not good at shooters but as far as i know Battlefield is a base vs base online game, what does it have to do with MW2? And is Mass Effect the same as CoD? is Metro? Is stalker? Is F.E.A.R? No.

    I've played them all extensively, and I claim that their skin and some features may be different, but at their core gameplay mechanics not much has changed and they play like clones from eachother. I make that claim with as much and even better arguments than the people claiming that as good as all MMO's post-2005 are WoW clones.

     

    My own opinion, I think that the MMO genre from 2005-2010 has shown far less innovation and differentiation than it showed in the period 2000-2004. Looking at some of  the new MMO's, it looks like we're slowly crawling out of these Dark Ages of MMO and that MMO's start to hit the right notes again in their evolution and progress of the genre.

     

    SW TOR of those new upcoming MMO's looks to follow close to the themepark format. Still, I won't call it a 'WoW clone' for the following reasons:

    - 'WoW clone' is used by people when they in fact look down negatively upon themepark MMO's, and I have no problems with the themepark genre. It has been successful for a reason, and that is because people had/have a good time in themepark MMO's for a long time.

    - SW TOR invests heavily in story immersion in several ways, and this makes it very differently from the simple questing mechanics seen in WoW or other MMO's. If done right, this would make the experience more like a ME2 or DA:O, where you don't really care about leveling or questing but more about wanting to see the story progress. In contrast to the questgrinding that you often do in other MMO's.

    - SW TOR has enough differences that it brings to the table that separates it from the regular MMO themepark (or 'WoW clone') flavor: scifi theme no orcs and elves and mages, space combat, space exploration, spaceship as player housing and base of command a la ME2, Companions, a lot of vast planets not just 1 world, to name a few important ones.

    - nobody has played the game yet in the way it'll be released, also a lot of features haven't been revealed information yet. So how different the game will end up to be, we don't know yet.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

This discussion has been closed.