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PvP: Why does 'kit' always win??
Well, the topic may not be new, but I really have to get this thought process out there. Why can't some company bring out an mmorpg that provides for a pvp environment where all players are 'kitted out' equally!!?? This post obviously does not relate to an open-world pvp environment.
Sure, sure...provide prizes for peeps with talent...but make these prizes cosmetic only. Say, a title or piece of kit that can be displayed but has no impact on performance while partaking in pvp combat.
I am really tired of pvp environments where the peeps with the best kit 'own' during battle. Too many games I have played (and it's a lot) end up falling into this category....especially during the 'end game' period. You get to the highest level in the game, jump into a pvp battle (remember; you're a newly 'promoted' top level) and you simply get your arse handed to you by peeps with all the uber gear. They are not better players, are quite possibly throwing common sense and decent tactical behaviour out the window...they just HAVE THE GEAR!
Why not create a game that provides for pvp 'areas' where ALL are kitted equally...tactics/better playing wins the game. Prizes are cosmetic (as alluded to earlier) OR they are improvements to gear when pve'ing.
OK, i guess i've thrown my 2 cents into this arena, and gotten that off my chest. Hopefully some up and coming game developer will take this concept to heart. Thanks for reading, and of course all comments are welcome.
Good gaming all.
Comments
Gear acts as part of the "rock/paper/scissors" in pvp games much like a persons feat or skill tree selections do. If everyone was equally geared, etc. then there would always be one standard method of how to use your character and most ppl would tire of it quickly.
Try Puzzle Pirates or EVE Online. Those are two where player skill are far more important than the gear being used. Gear-centric advantages are very common in level-based MMOs, so maybe try out some of the skill-based PvP MMOs. They are less likely to have big purple IWIN buttons in them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Sorry, but I can't agree in any way with you analogy. CLASSES are your rocks/paper/scissor elements in pvp....NOT gear. Tanks pin...dps kill...healers heal...and all the other variations (ranged/melee, etc) of these concepts. Various skill trees provide 'options' in gameplay/style, and again your gear should not effect this.
Teamwork 'trumps' all....
GEAR should have next to nothing to do with it....other than the obvious need to actually have 'weapons' equipped.
HOW could matches based almost entirely on teamwork and individual skill as opposed to uber gear ever be found "boring" over time??
Well, agree to disagree then. In rock/paper/scissors each player picks one of them and counts to three to reveal the choices and see who wins. But classes are most definetely not rock/paper/scissors because you cannot change your class before the battle so the other player already knows what class you are. The analogy represents hidden or partially hidden customization choices you apply to your character that you can leverage to win a fight.
Just like leveling up will make you stronger in combat, I just don;t see anything wrong with applying the same theory for gear. Leveling up takes time, and collecting all the good gear takes time as well. It is akin to any alternative advancement system.
You've presented a game design where the person with the most free time wins.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
His analogy is closer though in regard to how gear works.
Without gear, two people doing scissors would go again. With gear, one person might have better scissors - even though they still picked scissors - and thus win.
Using WoW as an example, always found it odd that the Arena did not work that way - the characters received gear based on their class/spec - something more akin to a professional bout - rather than some folks meeting up in an alley for a brawl. Then again, I even began to wonder that about the BGs - why the various factions did not provide standard gear that a player would have to use, etc. Join your local armed forces and see if they let you take to the battleground wearing a wife-beater, Levi's, and an ol' pair of Chucks.
Yes, open world PvP would be wtfpwnsauce based on gear. Other areas, was just always kind of odd...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Welcome to MMORPG games Loktofeit haha.. But yeah, a game like that would be cool for casual players. But think of the hardcore players that put in massive amonts of time to a game... they want something to show for it besides "hey everyone is STILL equal even though I put in twice as much time oh wait I look cooler though yay.." So there are problems on both ends of the spectrum. (I aint even a hardcore player really)
-----------------------------
Real as Reality Television!!!
Guild Wars
Tell me what MMO out there doesn't? And the sky is blue.
First one to max level wins
First one to max gear wins
At the very end, all have same level and same gear and the playing field is even. That is why everyone is in such a rush to get to endgame first.
The max gear helps to extend the endgame further (yes, = more time)
Then play Global Agenda. There is no real gear advantages to make things horribly unbalanced.
The problem is the genre you are complaining about. Fantasy MMORPGS has to have a carrot on a stick to keep people playing. levels are not enough. So you have gear progression side by side with levels. I just don't see how a fantasy mmorpg heavy on the pve side could function without loot or with statless gear. that's effectively taking away that carrot on a stick most people play mmorpgs for. Why strive to better your toon if you have nothing to gain for it in the end?
I can understand why you are annoyed of the fact you don't have access to the same gear as the hardcore raiders for whatever reason, thus making pvp pointless for you. What would be a better alternative?. Remember it still has to keep peoples interest enough to renew their sub after a month
If you think about it you have the same advantages and opportunities as everybody else in these games to obtain that "kit". If real life prevents you from investing the time to get it. Well I personally don't think a game should cater to the lowest denominator as to whom has the least amount of time to spend online.
EVE.
But back to the OP. Basic MMORPG design almost always incorporated the factor that he who plays the most ends up with the highest levels/best gear, and these two elements are used to determine who's going to win the outcome of any fight far more than player hand-eye coordination.
You are asking for an MMOFPS, of which there's only been a few, Planetside comes first to mind, theres a WWII game as well that is similar.
But in general, you are decrying the core mechanics that define the MMORPG genre. (along with relentless grinding of course)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Fair PvP? One that is about actual character builds and skill...linked with the equipment and other things you have...Its called Guild Wars. Of course there is a genre of PvP that is based on actual skill when you reach the top ends of the ladder. Its called "First Person Shooter."
See? The problem with MMOs is that it has zero to do with roleplaying and everything to do with powergaming. The idea on those games is to explore the world, but get limited by monsters you can't kill who can kill you. The entire concept is about actually powergaming to reach that. Its all about trying to get the maximum equipment and strongest things out there to be able to do everything and not be so weak against endgame enemies...
This is why I get upset at the genre. Real roleplaying is about working on "Character" and "acting it out." All you get is some character who can't really interract with the world and takes the same 5 types of NPC Quests written 1000 different ways to mean the same thing when you play MMORPGs.
So if FPS and RPG put you into a character role...then what is the actual difference?
MMORPG = System Dependent
FPS = Player Dependent
In FPS games your skill is dependent on your knowledge of the maps, the other players, their clans and their weapons. Technology does matter, like getting 60 FPS and having a decent internet connection...but its all done based on your abilities in playing the game. There is a difference between a good player who can streak 10 - 20 kills and the new player with a top of the line computer who dies to everyone.
In MMORPGs its the opposite. You can be a 30 - 40 year old person and be 100x smarter than a 12 year old...but if you are level 10, no matter what you do, you never will win against a level 60 child who can burn 1000s of hours to play a game and to me that is not about Skill or Fairness in any way.
I am sure a lot of people have a problem with a player having to play for 100s - 1000s of hours to "match up to another in PvP" which is PERFECT for the developers who can entice you into spending more money on monthly fees. Of course you arent going to get most players who played for 1000s of hour admit that their equipment makes everything unfair vs lower level characters.
This just doesnt work. Guild wars has made all the gear at endgame the same level the only value is looks, so i say to myself why get more gear for looks and waste my time if i get nothing out of it. Cosmetic looks isnt enough for a hardcore player and mainly everyone. I would much rather earn awesome gear to kill others faster. There needs to be an incentive. Also when you earn gear as an award that does things more then cosmetics you can have brackets as wow does so people without that gear normally wont be facing people who do.
Eve Online is bar none the rock-paper-scissors of MMOs. Shown very clearly in the last tourny where team after team all the way into the finals got flawless victories. Eve is decided on the fitting screen, and within 2 seconds of engagement you will realise if you will win or lose, decided by what you are fitted for and what you are up against. You fitted long range big ships? Well sorry for you mister Paper Battleship, this here is Mr Scissors Assault Frig, and it just got under your guns.
EvE isn't really a good example, allthough it's one of the best MMOs in regards to PvP.
Why it's not a good example is based on the fact, that your opponent knows of your possible capabilities way too early, even before you get visuals. The shipclasses do tell a whle lot allready, and imho they're telling way too much.
The best setting for PvP would be the skill-system of EvE, where everyone can train all available skills and basically use all available equipment, but instead of having ships with avatars (characters) that don't give any information (no classnames, no levels, etc...) but their playername.
So now if two players meet for a fight, noone can tell, what the other player has equipped or what his setup may look like.
The best equipment has to be freely available within rather short time for everyone, purely based on your character-skills and the availability in the marketplace (all gear being crafted, no loot-drops!).
Does such a game exist? Not yet as far as I know, but there's one in development: Earthrise.
You should be playing Guild Wars.
/thread
Guild Wars 2!
I think you mean: "This just doesnt work for me", cause I wouldn't say gw doesn't work since it is one of the best pvps out there. Also you don't get access to all the gear at once in gw, you unlock the upgrades to the armours by doing pvp or pve (although it doesn't take long to build your gear).
Anyway ye GW is the game you're looking for.
Thanks all for the feedback. I have played guild wars, and am pretty well guaranteed to be jumping into their new mmo when it comes out.
To the thread starter...
Although its a CORPG, and not an MMORPG..
Guild Wars is my favorite for PvP, although old...RYL was a favorite also for PvP (and it was action oriented pvp). MMORPGs are really turn-based games that operate in real time. All your abilities are skills that start a countdown timer for execution.
Its like going to the bathroom and getting ready to pee, and having a counter drop to zero. Once it drops to zero your body pees. Then to clean yourself up you have to wait for another counter to reach zero to clean yourself up, then another counter to zero to be able to get up and zip your pants up, another counter to zero in order to wash your hands and so on and so forth.
In the real world you can force yourself to pee faster or slower and you can control your own speed at which you clean yourself up and the time you wash your hands or not.
If I wanted to do full pvp and think about surviving...where everyone starts fair and you don't have a system always imposing restrictions to slow the game down, there is a nice genre called "First Person Shooters" that you can try out. The older, the better.
Many people enjoy the treadmill of doing things to get rewards.
I understand the fair concept (GW, FPS, RTS), but in an MMO, putting everyone equal for pvp removes what so many people who play most MMOs enjoy. Given equal skill, why is it hard to say, "okay, this guy farmed that instance/grinding mobs for so long at max level and has better gear and I just hit end game, so he beat me."
It really comes down to personal preference. There are plenty of games, and types of games, that favor an equal "end game" sort of PvP. Yet at the same time, in an FPS, I spent more time playing, so I have this better unlocked gun (mmo progression...). At the same time, I have played guild wars for a long time, and have all the eltie skills and you have 2 (mmo progression in a different sense).
I want to answer to this one.
Better guns in "Shooters" actually are bound in several attributes. Usually a higher damaging gun, has a lower rate of fire, shorter range and even less accuracy. Those are weapons which in untrained hands get those players killed. One reason many players die in shooters is because they over-use unlocked weapons and abilities without learning the basic set first.
The seasoned player using those weapons can get far, but due to the fact the general-set of weapons are better in the most general of conditions, using such weapon puts you as a specialist and automatically if you become good you can join "Special Teams" in Leagues who are trained to run those weapons for certain strategies. I play in Divisions and League Ladders.....and its amazing how different the player base is in those MSLs (Master Server Lists).
MMORPGs are interesting, here is a quote I like:
"Without the existence of Law, all beings will use everything at their disposal to validate their instincts at will over the weaker. We are to assume for a nation to survive under a system of law, that all men are inherently evil and will always use whatever means necessary to fulfill their goals" (This is a paraphrased quote that was said in the 1200s and then in the 1400s in similar fashion...and still applies today)
The law which exists in MMORPGs is the System Administrators, The Physics and the world properties are handled by the Server. The players themselves while without a system strive to conquer and display power. MMORPGs are a great example of what happens when societies are unorganized.
People wish for a fair fight, the majority say "might makes right" and the companies who make the games capitalize of the greed. It is a genre where at the end of the day everyone loses and no one wins, except for the ones pulling the string.
Simple and real answer: because noobs(mass) must somehow be able to at least kill somebody(who doesnt have good gear) so they wont get disapointed in a skill based game and leave.
Noobs cant understand what balanced pvp is, they might believe they did something when they won a player with half the health and damage and feel happy about that. They cant see its an completely one-sided battle, but "winning" them still gives them satisfaction
And thats also because gear is earned through time and not skill
Rock paper sciscors games are mostly about teams, balanced 1v1 doesnt exist, counter or get countered(the only case would be to be the same class). I dont see the point of fighting an one-sided battle...
i 100% agree that gear rewards should be purely cosmetic and maybe playstyle changing with +% -% values to balance it out
Guild Wars 2 will do that, though i believe the prizes are supposed to be free stuff from the online store, real money and other stuff like titles, etc...
Cause subscription model doesnt suppot that, it doesnt make casuals play more so as long as there isnt any new casual money stealing mechanic, they ll keep using gear in order to attract casuals aka the masses aka the money
Never understand why people say eve is skill based (yes, I play). Select the right ship, right group, right modules that work well with your mates, orbit, use modules and warp out if necessary. No skill in that or I'm doing it wrong. (An FC needs to be a skillful player, as in chess style skillful).
Having the best kit helps mediocre players win over skillful players and keeps them ingame. People who aren't very good would soon leave if they had no chance of making an advantage for themselves. It's what keeps me playing as I get older and my reactions get slower!