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Class Specilization---Reminds me of another MMO...
Sykomyke
Member Posts: 116
As the title says, the method upon which I keep hearing about class specilization in SW:TOR is eerily similar to Tabula Rasa.
Granted TR had, IMO, a very narrow method in which it provided entertainment, I still feel that the situation feels too similar.
While the idea behind having archetypes of classes is a good one that has been used before, it lends itself to the idea that the preliminary classes are nothing more then stepping stones, something to surmount as fast as possible to get to the "true play style".
You see this somewhat in other MMO's, for simplicities sake we'll use WoW. The idea here is that in WoW has skills which fundamentally change how a class plays once they achieve them. I haven't played WoW in awihle now, but back when I did, it was considered somewhat gamechanging for a shaman once he recieved Chain Lightning and (back when it was available) clearcasting trait.
I digress though. My point is that while archetypes are a way to introduce people to a class and let them learn and get a feel for the underlying base mechanics of their class before progressing; it also produces an inherent throught process that the archetype is "inferior" to the specilized sub-classes.
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Comments
Thats because the base, for the most part, the base class is inferior to the sub-classes.
Tabula Rasa was an 8 class game. There were 4 base classes that have no place in the end-game. And the end-game is generally how a game is measured.
The system isn't flawed in concept. It is only flawed in implimentation. That is where most systems fail.
The biggest problem with a system like this is that it punishes you for rolling alts. You have to play the exact same character again in order to play one of the alternative specialisations within the same archetype.
EQ2 had this same problem and they eventually scrapped the specialisation system entirely since many people were getting a long way into the game, making a specialisation choice, realising they actually don't even like the class they were now forced to play and rerolling by making an identical character all over again. That kinda highlights the other problem: you essentially choose your class after investing hours into the game so what happens if you don't like that class? It's not quite as easy as messing about with each of them for an hour or so to decide...
This type of advancement system doesn't work well in the long term. It's extremely unfriendly to those players who like rolling alts.
oh man Tabula Rasa... jeez.
I'm reading this thread and for some reason I'm not getting it. What is the problem?
I know that when I played EQ2 I had to choose between becoming a Brigand or Assassin, both rogue-type classes, when I reached a certain level. I didn't see any problem with that when I played, I read up what the class was about and made my specialization choice. Doesn't Dungeons $ Dragons and other (MMO)RPG games do the same?
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
there *must* be a viable way to play your actual class to the end. i mean, yes there can be "forking directions" but one of those must be some kind of "natural continuation". if i get to lvl40 with a "scout" class that offers a certain gameplay experience i like, and i'm suddenly forced to choose between "assassin" and "rogue" classes that both completely change my average playing experience, that's terribly wrong.
there must be a natural continuation to every "starter" class that allows to play your last 20 levels roughly the same as you played the initial 40, in case you don't want sudden changes.
Ah, like that, I see. It's some time ago, but it didn't feel very different when I chose my subclass, more of a natural progression of how I'd been playing before but now with more tools at hand.
I wouldn't think of the starter class in MMO's who use subclasses/specializations being "inferior" as the OP mentions, merely generic.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
To expound on the problem. You play a character for 20-30 levels, and your presented with a choice Branch 1 or 2. All you get is a label of the abilites and a small write up of how it plays. So if you happen to choose Branch 1, and get a level or two in and find out that you hate it..have to reroll.
Maybe the game play will be fast enough that it won't matter to much time wise, or they will offer a respec within a few levels of the choice. Speciality classes themselves are a good idea, but penalizing players in time for a wrong choice or choice they dont like isnt good sense to me.
YOu cant make any analogy and comparisons as the OP has done above , inreality this is a bit of a mute discussion.
A few respondees here have started to elaborate on ooh if i pick the wrong specialisation or branch .... It may be the end of the world. Are some people here for real ?
I will be buying this game , the cost of the box and first month will be covered by the excelent Class Storylines Bioware are famous for; Irrespective of how well the MMO works overal (WIn WIn).
But to the real point here this is the shocker I am going to pick a class i like the sounds of and play it. And enjoy it , I will not be picking the wrong tree branch or route to the top because guess what my charachter is who he is and will play the game as just that, and use the available abilities.
No dissapointment for me just me playing a game and enjoying. Not long to wait now...
For those who like a rat race you probably have too much time on ya hands or no wisdom...........
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
I think the ability to which you refer is
FROST SHAWK
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
It also should be noted that Bioware still hasn't decided yet if the class specializations will be permanent or not so they may allow you to respec if you don't like your choice.
I swear in Tabula rasa when you got the option to pick your specialization class you could clone yourself, so if you didn't like your choice you didn't have to re-level.
Its not always that way. WoW has three different "talent" trees, each of which are focused in a specific "school" of training. However, if memory serves me correctly, whilst AOC had three "talent" trees too, the difference was that the third "tree" in AOC was a General tree which applied to ALL classes in that archtype. It's job was to accentuate the abilities and stats that the archtype already had (increased HP, Mana, bigger rage pool, better hiding ability, etc, etc) . And these "General" perks where actually very useful in a lot of cases. Thus the player had the opportunity to not only get new abilities in their chosen "school" but also increase the effectiveness of their existing abilities.
However, rght now we don't know enough about how the "specialisation" system in SWTOR will work in order to get an accurate picture. So its pointless jumping to conclusions based on other games, because for all we know the specialisation system may (or may not) widely differ to them in how it is implemented.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Although I only tried the Beta, I seem to recall you could do that too.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
True, but having to make an alt to experience Path X of Class A instead of Path Y keeps the subs rolling. I imagine there will be respecs, but as special events, vet rewards, etc. God forbid they go CO style and slap it in a cash store.
Not that I think this is a big issue. My current hope regarding specializations is to have 3 paths instead of merely 2 in order to promote a little more variety in playstyle within the classes (say Smuggler DPS, Utility, and Stealth trees, just as an example).
Personally I'm "on the fence" when it comes to the validity of rolls alts. On the one hand, players have had to roll alts simply because in the past there was no way to "duel spec". Therefore, players shouldn't be forced to roll an alt of the same class just to experience a different specialisation. That's just inconveniencing the player a little *too* much for the abilty to have another specialisation.
However, with that said, perhaps there is mileage in players having to put SOME effort into changing specialisation. Therefore, the game emphasises the need for players to make the right choice, but doesn't permanently penalise them if they ultimately decide they've made the wrong one.
Having "duel specialisations" and having to work to switch specialisations both have their merits and downfalls to me.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
You come in here and post insults and yet you clearly don't have any clue what the OP or others are getting at.
A divergent class tree system has been done before in many games and most of the time it has not turned out well. My previous post highlighted the other problems that the OP didn't. I doubt anyone will actually go back and read it though so in brief the main issues are that:
The playstyle can change dramatically and the player may no longer enjoy the new playstyle that is FORCED upon them.
If a player wants to roll an alt that branches off from the same base class then they essentially have to play the same character for 20 or so levels until they can pick the new class (this is extremely boring, I've had to do it before).
If a player doesn't like their choice then it is possible that the time invested in their character is wasted and they will have to reroll. In a normal class system this wouldn't matter as the player could try each different class out right from the start.
No one said it was the end of the world so don't exaggerate. Bioware will have to implement the system extremely well, however, to avoid the pitfalls that plagued previous games. If they allow some kind of respec option for specialisations then it will solve most of the problems but it will also remove any sense of permenance from the choice the player made in the storyline which I know Bioware will be hesitant to do.
We'll just have to see how they implement it, but judging by past examples this kind of system is usually more trouble than it's worth.
They have already side there will be another tree you can put points in to boost your core stats and skills. So you will have a choice of splitting your points into the sub-class you picked and/or your core class
OH Many players subscribing to play in a common environment. This reminds me of something no wait for it .... yes an MMO how unoriginal.
Pathetic Pathetic post , the inane nature of these comparative post for a common genre of game do people not realise how stupid thes comparisons seem. Play a AAA you get what is on the box, play an indie game that is trying something different you may get a surprse.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
It's pretty much for the reasons listed above that while they may initially implement their system in the beginnining, I don't see them keeping with it for too long like EQ2. I would hope they would learn from someone else's mistake in this regard but apparently they are determined to relearn the problem.
Do you even understand the point of the post you've quoted? Because what you're saying has nothing to do with it.
Yes I see the vast number of insults that I have posted let me see oh dear there aren't any, I guess you can't accept some people know how to enjoy a game.
Please remember this is a game nothing more... People have a choice, if you prefer less structured playstyle then go play.
You know this week I was playing a bit of EQ2(very structured ), last night Mortal online (Mad and Unstructured) we killed 10 horses and ourselves trying to take a short cut over a cliff what a laugh, but i digress. From Structured or skill based progression or a mixture inbetween the choices are available , Bioware have stated how it will be and it will not change for you. It is not about you it is about their game.
Who cares about the limitations you have choice play or don't play. Like I said mute argument.... poor thread nearly sounds like whining.
I feel for your poor choices in the past and having to replay a charachter must have been traumatic, if you have no interest in enjoying a game and want Uber charachter X. Pay someone to level you up , power level or do whatever a sad scenario I would not entertain.
It is all about having fun..... worrying is bad for you and causes ulcers and worse....
I hope I was not too insulting , I hope they have falling damage in game (Oops I am falling into the trap yopurself and the OP are now I guess I should slap myself on the wrist).
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
The insults are in the disdain you hold for anyone with a playstyle or opinion that differs from yours. The last line of your post claiming that anyone that basically thinks differently to you must lack wisdom is an insult, but I guess you lacked the wisdom to see that?
You realise that saying that this is about 'fun' is actually the very point I was arguing. Divergent class trees have, in the past, been NOT FUN! Where is the fun in playing a class for 20 levels and then choosing between two specialisations of which neither continues to play like the original? If you don't like the playstyle of the new classes then you've just wasted your time with that character as you are no longer able to have fun playing. That is what happened in EQ2 and other games that used this system. There is no fun in making a blind choice unaware of the consequences when it will determine your enjoyment of the rest of the game.
To use your own post as an example (since you seem incapable of understanding mine or the OP's argument) you said:
"I am going to pick a class i like the sounds of and play it. And enjoy it , I will not be picking the wrong tree branch or route to the top because guess what my charachter is who he is and will play the game as just that, and use the available abilities."
Now how can you guarantee that you will enjoy playing what you choose before you choose it? I doubt you are somehow able to see the future (though you may try to assert that you can) in which case you cannot simply state you will enjoy it or that you will make the 'right' choice. Hell the very fact that you acknowledge there to be a wrong choice proves that the system is flawed and has the potential to not be 'fun'.
And no I don't expect Bioware to change anything, where did I ever suggest they should change anything? I was only observing that this system has never worked in the past in an MMO without some way to undo the choice. I then went on to observe that such a respec option would be undesirable to Bioware since it would undermine the storyline decision that defines your specialisation. They may pull it off but I'll believe that when I see it.
Why are you being so defensive of the game if all you care about is having fun? Why are you here telling people that find their fun in something different to yourself that they are somehow below you? Seriously get over yourself.
Until we get more info on the system (ie hands on experience) this entire discussion seems futile and moot.
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True, but having to make an alt to experience Path X of Class A instead of Path Y keeps the subs rolling. I imagine there will be respecs, but as special events, vet rewards, etc. God forbid they go CO style and slap it in a cash store.
Not that I think this is a big issue. My current hope regarding specializations is to have 3 paths instead of merely 2 in order to promote a little more variety in playstyle within the classes (say Smuggler DPS, Utility, and Stealth trees, just as an example).
Since when does it keep subs rolling? Last game I remember to now allow respecs was Hellgate... but when they got feedback on this, they quickly reversed this decision. If respecs are not allowed in TOR, that is a huge chunk of players gone, right there.Error: 37. Signature not found. Please connect to my server for signature access.