With AT LEAST 3 factions, even if 1 side becomes an underdog they hav ethe chance to work against a common enemy with 1 of the other factions. In 2 faction PvP, once you're screwed (underpowered) you just keep getting screwed worse and worse, unless by some miracle the other side either loses a bunch of players or they suddenly stop getting mor epowerful (level / gear / skills).
None of this matters if the gameplay sucks. That's the bottom line. 2 factions with good gameplay is good enough. 3 factions is preferred and makes it even better for the reasons everyone has mentioned. But the deciding factor is good gameplay, not the number of factions.
The problems developers are going to have with this game is similar to the one Star Trek had.
Sure, I like the idea of Warhammer lore, Ive read some good novels about it and enjoy the whole dark and foreboding atmosphere, the bleak future and the sense of endless struggle etc etc.
The problem is, there are thousands upon thousands of people whose lives are consumed by painting lead figures, reading rule books, quoting lore to each other, and generally living and breathing 'gamesworkshop'. A friend of mine is the embodiment of this. Any conversation with him about warhammer results in a "No no no, thats not right, I think you'll find that the codex says blah blah blah"... he even has the 'voice' to go with it. You know, the excitable geeky voice.
Star Trek had the same issue. Every thing they did was pounced upon by a million pointy eared wearing Spok wannabe's who pulled it all apart with quotations from old episodes.
My point is, games like these that use material from groups such as Games Workshop are destined to failure. They will never live up to the expectations of its fan base who, generally speaking, are a hairs breadth away from losing touch with reality and claiming that Space Marines actually exist. The pvp will always be wrong, the lore wont be accurate enough, the factions will behave in a way they dont agree with, the architecture of the buildings will be not quit right etc etc. It will always result in a frothing nerd rage from people who think shouting "Waaaaaa!" is funny. (Yes my friend does this too...)
I think people need to take a few pills, relax and wait to see how the game turns out. Its never going to be their dream come true where they can finally leave the real world behind. Its always going to be just a game, a load of pixels on the screen, a diversion. Peoples imaginations are always far better unfortunately.
With AT LEAST 3 factions, even if 1 side becomes an underdog they hav ethe chance to work against a common enemy with 1 of the other factions. In 2 faction PvP, once you're screwed (underpowered) you just keep getting screwed worse and worse, unless by some miracle the other side either loses a bunch of players or they suddenly stop getting mor epowerful (level / gear / skills).
None of this matters if the gameplay sucks. That's the bottom line. 2 factions with good gameplay is good enough. 3 factions is preferred and makes it even better for the reasons everyone has mentioned. But the deciding factor is good gameplay, not the number of factions.
I think it is a mixture of both great gameplay and number of factions. I loved daoc and my characters in midgard. We were extremely outnumbered by albion, yet often we held a good share of the relics. If there was no hibernia to alleviate the population imbalance, people would have stopped playing, great gameplay and all and it would have turned into a ghost town like war.
Of course, daoc ended up that way thanks to mythic, but that is another story, heh.
The #1 reason DAoC is considered one of the best PvP games in the genre was the fact that it had 3 factions.
This isn't even close to being accurate. If daoc had 3 factions but shitty wow pvp mechanics and system it would have been considered a sucky game. If daoc had 3 factions but the guild wars pvp mechanics and system it would have been considered a pretty good game.
I didn't say it was the only reason the game is highly rated, I said it was the #1 reason. You may disagree, but think about it for a second. What is DAOC remembered for?
Also, I stick to my opinion. You have yours and I have mine, I don't think there's going to be a middle ground here because for me personally, the actual "gameplay" in DAOC was... just ok.
Combat was slow and boring, AoE classes and Skalds were overpowered, leveling was painful, etc. The combat was decent enough that I could tolerate it to participate in something I really enjoyed, the 3 faction warfare.
The number of factions isn't what makes playing a game awesome. The gameplay mechanics, and in cases of mmo pvp, the pvp mechanics are what matter. Having a 3rd faction can only make a great game more fun than it already is, but the 3rd faction isn't THE reason it is great.
How can you even say this? Where's your point of refrence for line of reasoning? Thinking back on my MMO gaming experiences the only games I would rate higher than DAOC as far as quality of the PvP would be completely factionless, open PvP games.
No game I can think of with just 2 factions even comes close to the fun I had in DAOC.
I have to agree with this. It seems very short sighted to assume that " 3 factions = win "
It's just not that simple.
Of course not, and I never said that. I don't somehow think that putting bacon on top of pile of rotten meat is going to somehow magically make it taste delicious. But putting bacon on a plain 100% angus burger that just came off the grill only makes it better.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I think it is a mixture of both great gameplay and number of factions. I loved daoc and my characters in midgard. We were extremely outnumbered by albion, yet often we held a good share of the relics. If there was no hibernia to alleviate the population imbalance, people would have stopped playing, great gameplay and all and it would have turned into a ghost town like war.
Of course, daoc ended up that way thanks to mythic, but that is another story, heh.
Exactly. Having 3 factions isn't going to save a bad game, but not having 3 factions could potentially cause a decent game to not reach it's full potential due to faction imbalance.
Funny thing is that all this is a moot point if it's going to be instanced combat.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Originally posted by Dameonk Originally posted by LotosSlayer I guess I'd have to have played DaoC to know.
That's exactly true. The #1 reason DAoC is considered one of the best PvP games in the genre was the fact that it had 3 factions. And to your other comment, I truly believe if WAR had 3 factions it would have done a lot better. . DAoC is not Warhammer 40K. . First, 40K won't have /face and /stick commands. . Second, 40K has distinct, cool races. One race will probably attract more players than another. What happens if everyone wants to be a space marine? . DAoC factions were human, human, and if you didn't want to play those, more humans.
Two sided faction in WAR is complete fail. Especially with the 40K lore. I can't imagine how lame it would be strolling around an Eldar city as a Space marine. Or walking through a Tyranid have ship as a Chaos Marine or whatever. Fail.
Playing: Xsyon. Played: Tried: Ultima Online, Everquest 2, Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, Flyff, Perfect World, Silkroad Online, EVE Online, Ryzom.
i think WAR just got screwed up by too many people, weither it be myth or EA or even gw.
mythic doesn't exactly have a good track record. daoc players can agree to that from the last few years before mythic basically let the game die, right?
WAR was just boring, the classes were boring, the races were boring, the tradeskilling was boring, and the game designers decided that they need to basically have 2 groups of three,
hopefully THQ and virgil aren't dumb enough to think that two opposing factions would work, THQ should very well know 40k by now.
who knows though, i figure half the fantasy warhammer ended up with two factions is purely out of path of least resistence. two is easier to balance than three against each other, you only have one side to balance against after all.
i hope they don't do that, because i can see the groups - IG, SM and eldar - order. chaos, ork, and dark eldar - destruction.
no way they would have tyrinids or necrons as playable, though it would be cool. what would the classes be in either of them?
there is no fluff other than "they are galactic plagues and want to eat everything they can" not much to go on.
i'd say if they have some sort of massive quests like public quests WHO had, they would use them there, or raids maybe.
as for the other 6 main groups,that is how i see them coming together, i'm not sure how 3 factions would work, who would be the 3rd?
The #1 reason DAoC is considered one of the best PvP games in the genre was the fact that it had 3 factions.
This isn't even close to being accurate. If daoc had 3 factions but shitty wow pvp mechanics and system it would have been considered a sucky game. If daoc had 3 factions but the guild wars pvp mechanics and system it would have been considered a pretty good game.
I didn't say it was the only reason the game is highly rated, I said it was the #1 reason. You may disagree, but think about it for a second. What is DAOC remembered for?
Also, I stick to my opinion. You have yours and I have mine, I don't think there's going to be a middle ground here because for me personally, the actual "gameplay" in DAOC was... just ok.
Combat was slow and boring, AoE classes and Skalds were overpowered, leveling was painful, etc. The combat was decent enough that I could tolerate it to participate in something I really enjoyed, the 3 faction warfare.
The number of factions isn't what makes playing a game awesome. The gameplay mechanics, and in cases of mmo pvp, the pvp mechanics are what matter. Having a 3rd faction can only make a great game more fun than it already is, but the 3rd faction isn't THE reason it is great.
How can you even say this? Where's your point of refrence for line of reasoning? Thinking back on my MMO gaming experiences the only games I would rate higher than DAOC as far as quality of the PvP would be completely factionless, open PvP games.
No game I can think of with just 2 factions even comes close to the fun I had in DAOC.
I have to agree with this. It seems very short sighted to assume that " 3 factions = win "
It's just not that simple.
Of course not, and I never said that. I don't somehow think that putting bacon on top of pile of rotten meat is going to somehow magically make it taste delicious. But putting bacon on a plain 100% angus burger that just came off the grill only makes it better.
To comment on some of the things others have said in this thread.
In regards to the intent of my original thread, I am one who thoroughly believes that given the franchise and my past experience with other pvp focused games, a 2 faction driven game is bad for both lore and gameplay purposes.
Lore really is a big part of these games, ESPECIALLY games that take their IP from somewhere else. As to what someone said about star trek earlier, that is exactly what should happen, when you make a game you need to stick to the IP. WoW is its own IP and Blizzard can basically do whatever they want with it, but like any other IP, when they retcon stuff, a good portion of the fanbase is disappointed and you'll definately see them nerdrage, such is the sign of a good IP.
The Warhammer 40k universe doesn't rarely if ever allows for races to team up with other races, only in dire situations. In fact, it is pretty well known that even races don't always side with each other. You could see the Thousand Sons fight against the Word Bearers, or a chapter of Blood Angels fight a chapter of Dark Templars. Factions within the races will fight each other depending on the objective. To start teaming chaos with Orks is ridiculous. If anything the sorcerors of Chaos could manipulate the Ork Bosses to do their bidding, but in an indirect manner, not by fighting on the same battle lines. The Eldar have even been known to manipulate Orks and even Human forces.
Looking at past THQ works, specifically the Dawn of War series and all its expansions, it is pretty obvious that each race operates on their own agenda, and the manipulation of the other races is commonplace.
Given these past storylines, I could full well support a game that was 2 factions, as long as each race or sub-faction (chapter/clan/forgeworld) was completely seperate. I don't want Orks aboard Chaos vessels and I will puke if I ever see a khorne berserker in an Ork Wagon.
Lore aside, from a gameplay perspective and design perspective, it can be much easier to make a game 2 factions to better balance pvp. But the problem of one side outweighing the other is an issue in every single game involving an open pvp world. In DaoC, as someone stated once one side got too powerful, the other 2 would team up against them.
But I actually believe the best way to go with this IP were to create a PvE game focused on your one race, and by the time you hit max level, form a guild (read chapter/clan/etc.) and use player defined organizations to form the battle lines.
A system similar to EVE online's corporations. Alliances can be made, but the battle lines would be drawn by the players, much like is seen throughout the Warhammer 40k IP.
P.S. please give each player a retinue or bodyguard, squad based gameplay would be new and exciting.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift Willing to try anything new
After seeing the trailer for this game, I was so incredibly pumped. I've been a fan of 40k since I was in middle school. To finally see it come to the MMO scene is something i've been patiently waiting for for a long time.
I'm also someone who's played a lot of MMOs and got sucked into the WAR hype and was incredibly pissed to see the franchise turn into the order v destruction formula among many other insults to MMO gaming and the warhammer fanbase.
That said, I expect THQ to put together a really good game. And we all know that it is a couple years out. But I need to bring this to the attention of anyone willing to play this game and to see it succeed.
I stumbled upon their teaser site of the THQ website and saw something disturbing:
After you click on the "Game Info" tab, it pops up an introduction story, and you'll see in the third paragraph:
"Side with the forces of Order, or the vile hosts of Destruction,"
This is clear indication they intend for this game to be a 2 faction shitty pvp failboat as seen in WAR.
Please, community, we have to let the developers know that this is not the way to treat the next generation of pvp games. I think it has become increasingly apparent that the 2 faction model no longer works in this genre, and it's games like DaoC that have shown a 3+ faction pvp game is what the players want.
Personally I'd rather see a more open faction style where no race sides together, except for certain scenarios as the IP allows, but that's a different story altogether.
Please tell me someone else agrees.
The reason WAR failed wasn't because of its 2 factions that only played a part way after people found our that the endgame pvp wasn't complete.
I mean in tera all factions are not allied or enemies, they can group with each other and chat if they want but you can always attack them.
They could make it something similar with the "good side" in the first faction and the "bad side" in the other faction and let it be you can talk,group with the other races but you can fight them also.
I mean in tera all factions are not allied or enemies, they can group with each other and chat if they want but you can always attack them.
They could make it something similar with the "good side" in the first faction and the "bad side" in the other faction and let it be you can talk,group with the other races but you can fight them also.
As long as the chat is not nice and friendly, sure.
Oh, you mean player chat? Well, can't control that I suppose, but yeah. Plenty of eldar would be like "Hai Space Marinez lez go keel some Kaos tahahehehe" then when they're done be like "Oops yeah well u in our way LAWL we'z gonna shoot u wif Shurkien Cannon now PEW PEW PEW."
I think the distinction we have to make is race vs. faction. It's cool if Space Marines and eldar do group up for a little Ork-smashin', but it shouldn't be a permanent alliance, no matter what the circumstances. The only "solid" alliance should be between Space Marines and Imperial Guard, but even then, Guardsmen can be corrupted and must be put down. Or Guardsmen can be stupid and insult a Space Marine (how do you go to the bathroom in that suit LOLOLOL noob!), in which case they must also be put down.
Comments
None of this matters if the gameplay sucks. That's the bottom line. 2 factions with good gameplay is good enough. 3 factions is preferred and makes it even better for the reasons everyone has mentioned. But the deciding factor is good gameplay, not the number of factions.
The problems developers are going to have with this game is similar to the one Star Trek had.
Sure, I like the idea of Warhammer lore, Ive read some good novels about it and enjoy the whole dark and foreboding atmosphere, the bleak future and the sense of endless struggle etc etc.
The problem is, there are thousands upon thousands of people whose lives are consumed by painting lead figures, reading rule books, quoting lore to each other, and generally living and breathing 'gamesworkshop'. A friend of mine is the embodiment of this. Any conversation with him about warhammer results in a "No no no, thats not right, I think you'll find that the codex says blah blah blah"... he even has the 'voice' to go with it. You know, the excitable geeky voice.
Star Trek had the same issue. Every thing they did was pounced upon by a million pointy eared wearing Spok wannabe's who pulled it all apart with quotations from old episodes.
My point is, games like these that use material from groups such as Games Workshop are destined to failure. They will never live up to the expectations of its fan base who, generally speaking, are a hairs breadth away from losing touch with reality and claiming that Space Marines actually exist. The pvp will always be wrong, the lore wont be accurate enough, the factions will behave in a way they dont agree with, the architecture of the buildings will be not quit right etc etc. It will always result in a frothing nerd rage from people who think shouting "Waaaaaa!" is funny. (Yes my friend does this too...)
I think people need to take a few pills, relax and wait to see how the game turns out. Its never going to be their dream come true where they can finally leave the real world behind. Its always going to be just a game, a load of pixels on the screen, a diversion. Peoples imaginations are always far better unfortunately.
I think it is a mixture of both great gameplay and number of factions. I loved daoc and my characters in midgard. We were extremely outnumbered by albion, yet often we held a good share of the relics. If there was no hibernia to alleviate the population imbalance, people would have stopped playing, great gameplay and all and it would have turned into a ghost town like war.
Of course, daoc ended up that way thanks to mythic, but that is another story, heh.
Of course not, and I never said that. I don't somehow think that putting bacon on top of pile of rotten meat is going to somehow magically make it taste delicious. But putting bacon on a plain 100% angus burger that just came off the grill only makes it better.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Exactly. Having 3 factions isn't going to save a bad game, but not having 3 factions could potentially cause a decent game to not reach it's full potential due to faction imbalance.
Funny thing is that all this is a moot point if it's going to be instanced combat.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
That's exactly true. The #1 reason DAoC is considered one of the best PvP games in the genre was the fact that it had 3 factions.
And to your other comment, I truly believe if WAR had 3 factions it would have done a lot better.
.
DAoC is not Warhammer 40K.
.
First, 40K won't have /face and /stick commands.
.
Second, 40K has distinct, cool races. One race will probably attract more players than another. What happens if everyone wants to be a space marine?
.
DAoC factions were human, human, and if you didn't want to play those, more humans.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Two sided faction in WAR is complete fail. Especially with the 40K lore. I can't imagine how lame it would be strolling around an Eldar city as a Space marine. Or walking through a Tyranid have ship as a Chaos Marine or whatever. Fail.
Playing: Xsyon.
Played:
Tried: Ultima Online, Everquest 2, Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, Flyff, Perfect World, Silkroad Online, EVE Online, Ryzom.
i think this will be awesome.
i think WAR just got screwed up by too many people, weither it be myth or EA or even gw.
mythic doesn't exactly have a good track record. daoc players can agree to that from the last few years before mythic basically let the game die, right?
WAR was just boring, the classes were boring, the races were boring, the tradeskilling was boring, and the game designers decided that they need to basically have 2 groups of three,
hopefully THQ and virgil aren't dumb enough to think that two opposing factions would work, THQ should very well know 40k by now.
who knows though, i figure half the fantasy warhammer ended up with two factions is purely out of path of least resistence. two is easier to balance than three against each other, you only have one side to balance against after all.
i hope they don't do that, because i can see the groups - IG, SM and eldar - order. chaos, ork, and dark eldar - destruction.
no way they would have tyrinids or necrons as playable, though it would be cool. what would the classes be in either of them?
there is no fluff other than "they are galactic plagues and want to eat everything they can" not much to go on.
i'd say if they have some sort of massive quests like public quests WHO had, they would use them there, or raids maybe.
as for the other 6 main groups,that is how i see them coming together, i'm not sure how 3 factions would work, who would be the 3rd?
Multiple factions does not help crappy game design.
We haven't heard enough game details to even begin to qq about this yet.
Besides just how much of the game is even going to be PVP? We dont know.
Bacon is disgusting.
To comment on some of the things others have said in this thread.
In regards to the intent of my original thread, I am one who thoroughly believes that given the franchise and my past experience with other pvp focused games, a 2 faction driven game is bad for both lore and gameplay purposes.
Lore really is a big part of these games, ESPECIALLY games that take their IP from somewhere else. As to what someone said about star trek earlier, that is exactly what should happen, when you make a game you need to stick to the IP. WoW is its own IP and Blizzard can basically do whatever they want with it, but like any other IP, when they retcon stuff, a good portion of the fanbase is disappointed and you'll definately see them nerdrage, such is the sign of a good IP.
The Warhammer 40k universe doesn't rarely if ever allows for races to team up with other races, only in dire situations. In fact, it is pretty well known that even races don't always side with each other. You could see the Thousand Sons fight against the Word Bearers, or a chapter of Blood Angels fight a chapter of Dark Templars. Factions within the races will fight each other depending on the objective. To start teaming chaos with Orks is ridiculous. If anything the sorcerors of Chaos could manipulate the Ork Bosses to do their bidding, but in an indirect manner, not by fighting on the same battle lines. The Eldar have even been known to manipulate Orks and even Human forces.
Looking at past THQ works, specifically the Dawn of War series and all its expansions, it is pretty obvious that each race operates on their own agenda, and the manipulation of the other races is commonplace.
Given these past storylines, I could full well support a game that was 2 factions, as long as each race or sub-faction (chapter/clan/forgeworld) was completely seperate. I don't want Orks aboard Chaos vessels and I will puke if I ever see a khorne berserker in an Ork Wagon.
Lore aside, from a gameplay perspective and design perspective, it can be much easier to make a game 2 factions to better balance pvp. But the problem of one side outweighing the other is an issue in every single game involving an open pvp world. In DaoC, as someone stated once one side got too powerful, the other 2 would team up against them.
But I actually believe the best way to go with this IP were to create a PvE game focused on your one race, and by the time you hit max level, form a guild (read chapter/clan/etc.) and use player defined organizations to form the battle lines.
A system similar to EVE online's corporations. Alliances can be made, but the battle lines would be drawn by the players, much like is seen throughout the Warhammer 40k IP.
P.S. please give each player a retinue or bodyguard, squad based gameplay would be new and exciting.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift
Willing to try anything new
But WoW only has 2 factions!!!! 10 mil paying customers!!!!!
Every MMO coming out (American) will copy WoW's approach in all areas to get your money, point blank!
Hey Uknown, you're unique. You're the 5,108,510,249,182,049,182,059,182,590th person to make a thread on this, congragulations good sir.
We don't want two factions. Got it. There's even a petition floating around that you can sign if you want to.
The reason WAR failed wasn't because of its 2 factions that only played a part way after people found our that the endgame pvp wasn't complete.
Couldn't it be implemented similar to tera?
I mean in tera all factions are not allied or enemies, they can group with each other and chat if they want but you can always attack them.
They could make it something similar with the "good side" in the first faction and the "bad side" in the other faction and let it be you can talk,group with the other races but you can fight them also.
As long as the chat is not nice and friendly, sure.
Oh, you mean player chat? Well, can't control that I suppose, but yeah. Plenty of eldar would be like "Hai Space Marinez lez go keel some Kaos tahahehehe" then when they're done be like "Oops yeah well u in our way LAWL we'z gonna shoot u wif Shurkien Cannon now PEW PEW PEW."
I think the distinction we have to make is race vs. faction. It's cool if Space Marines and eldar do group up for a little Ork-smashin', but it shouldn't be a permanent alliance, no matter what the circumstances. The only "solid" alliance should be between Space Marines and Imperial Guard, but even then, Guardsmen can be corrupted and must be put down. Or Guardsmen can be stupid and insult a Space Marine (how do you go to the bathroom in that suit LOLOLOL noob!), in which case they must also be put down.
that's what WH 40K was.....order vs. destruction it you can't see that replay it