I can understand why people like avatars and find it difficult to play w/o one. it isn't a concern of mine, nor is having good looking gear on my avatar important (I'd wear a diaper in game if it had the best stats0 but it is a major point of enjoyment for many folks, and in particular for many women.
I do have to agree though, once the initial fun of an avatar wears off, will the folk who say their enjoyment hinges on this really enjoy the rest of EVE, because that's where I think the real game is.
Maybe so, as mentioned, we can't really understand why people like certain things that we don't, just part of our inividual make up I suppose.
You have an avatar. Is it a humanoid avatar? No. But you have an avatar. Much like the avatars in many games will wear different outfits, whether fluff or of use...your avatar in EVE is able to equip different outfits...different ships.
I think the people need to be honest with what they want here...they want additional customization so they do not feel like everybody else, and that is what EVE kind of forces on people - two people each in a Hurricane are still just two people in a Hurricane. Ten people in Hurricanes are ten people in Hurricanes. There is that new factor when they do release new ships every twenty million years or so, but then pretty soon - it is just ten people in a Tengu.
I'd rather have fluff customization of the avatars we need than to add fluff avatars we do not need.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Tarka, I am just trying to find out what people think adding a humanoid avatar will do for them in the game. It is not meant to be antagonistic, but nobody will give a straight answer on the matter. They say the game is missing the human factor. How so? Is having a humanoid looking avatar as opposed to whatever ship you are in as your avatar, that much of a game breaker for them? Having a humanoid avatar that can partake in minigames or loiter around stations will in no way affect what one does in EVE.
You say it will add something to EVE for those that are not necessarily partaking in PVP / manufacturing / mining and I suppose that would include trading and all the other things one does in EVE now. Can you see how that would be akin to my asking that they add spaceships to WoW or superheroes to LotRO? Um, hello - it is EVE; it is one of the most open games out there, but if people are looking to pay $15 a month for a 3D chatroom...well, can you see the point there?
It has nothing to do with playstyle in the least. If I am playing WoW, then I am taking on the role of whatever character I am playing at the time. The character uses spells, swings a sword, or whatever - but it is the character, so I expect the character to be humanoid. If I am playing EVE, well - I knew before hand that I was a capsuleer and that I would be in a ship. My character is in the ship. It is no different than my character being in armor in some other game. I do not get what people do not understand about that.
Having humanoid avatars in STO makes sense, because it fits the lore of the Star Trek Universe. Having humanoid avatars in EVE does not make any sense - it violates the lore. Where are pod pilots the most vulnerable? Outside of their pods. As has been said, they are Space Gods in Goo.
As has been asked before, are people going to be happy with having avatars where they can walk around stations, chit chat, gamble some isk, and then have to return to the ship to be able to do pretty much everything the game requires? Will they be happy on some level perhaps, knowing that under all the windows on their screen as they work the market, production, etc - that instead of there being a ship under all that (which they cannot see) that there is a humanoid avatar (which they cannot see)...?
Do people want to spin humanoid avatars instead of spaceship avatars while stuck in a station?
Yet nobody provides any sort of answer...
...are they hoping that there will be massive changes to the game and opening up missions along the lines of STO where your pilot actually gets out and has to run around to do things for missions - etc?
What is it? Why?
For the most part, MMORPG gamers love to become attached to and develop a familiar type of avatar. It would seem they have difficulty finding that same connection with a Spaceship.
Besides the guys who started CCP originally wanted this in game for launch as well PI and atmospheric flight. When it came down to applying every feature at once, they wisely chose to stick with ships only for launch. It was necessary to maintain the quality of the game. Cryptic really should have considered why CCP made this decision when they took over Star Trek Online from Perpetual Entertainment.
Even though it has taken many years, they are now finally getting around to putting in the originally intended features. Looks like a lot of EVE players just got used to the way things were.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
For the most part, MMORPG gamers love to become attached to and develop a familiar type of avatar. It would seem they have difficulty finding that same connection with a Spaceship.
Besides the guys who started CCP originally wanted this in game for launch as well PI and atmospheric flight. When it came down to applying every feature at once, they wisely chose to stick with ships only for launch. It was necessary to maintain the quality of the game. Cryptic really should have considered why CCP made this decision when they took over Star Trek Online from Perpetual Entertainment.
Even though it has taken many years, they are now finally getting around to putting in the originally intended features. Looks like a lot of EVE players just got used to the way things were.
I remember doing the demo for STO. I admit that I liked the character creation aspect (but then again, I've spent more time designing characters in CoH than I have playing them). I remember that once that character actually started to move, I was not as happy. I remember the first time I jumped (and I wondered if the game was still in early beta or even late alpha). The combat was bad...real bad. In a twisted sense, having the real bad player combat detracts from the bad ship combat, eh?
In the past few days, as these discussions have been going on - I have wondered a few times, how much better STO would have been were it more in line with what EVE is...and I have wondered how much worse off EVE will be, being more like STO.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
By definition, people who like playing EVE already dont "need" an avatar to enjoy the spaceships part of the game. They wont get the immediate benefit of the "imagination hook" that people like Teala clearly want and need.
But longer term, the existing players will get the other benefit, which is that new areas of gameplay will be opened up. There's not really much more CCP can do to enhance the sspaceships part of EVE. More space? Sure, I guess. That's not really adding more gameplay, is it? Just widening the stage. More shiptypes? To fill what role? We have more than enough already, unless someone can think up something genuinely new.
CCP have always said that their long-term aim is for EVE not just to be a spaceships game, but a full SF simulator. Incarna is a major, major step towards achieving that goal. The initial release will be fairly fluffy, I reckon. If you're only concerned with spaceships, then you wont get a lot from it. But the potential is what should excite you. New Things To Do is what the ambulation project is all about, and it's why bittervets should care about it.
By definition, people who like playing EVE already dont "need" an avatar to enjoy the spaceships part of the game. They wont get the immediate benefit of the "imagination hook" that people like Teala clearly want and need.
But longer term, the existing players will get the other benefit, which is that new areas of gameplay will be opened up. There's not really much more CCP can do to enhance the sspaceships part of EVE. More space? Sure, I guess. That's not really adding more gameplay, is it? Just widening the stage. More shiptypes? To fill what role? We have more than enough already, unless someone can think up something genuinely new.
CCP have always said that their long-term aim is for EVE not just to be a spaceships game, but a full SF simulator. Incarna is a major, major step towards achieving that goal. The initial release will be fairly fluffy, I reckon. If you're only concerned with spaceships, then you wont get a lot from it. But the potential is what should excite you. New Things To Do is what the ambulation project is all about, and it's why bittervets should care about it.
Are you kidding? There is so much that could be done on the ship side. More variety of ships. More modular ships. A more realistic approach to slots on larger ships. The ability to build better versions of the same ships through research - the ability to build worse versions of the same ships for cheaper. Paint. Corporate logos. Custom hulls. You could go on and on with what could be done with the ships themselves.
More space? Yes, more space. Not just wormholes, but the ability to expand the known reaches of space - kind of like what took place when folks first came through the Gate. Exploration - diplomacy with lost tribes other factions - and even alien races. What have the Jovians been protecting us from?
Random invasions of various sectors of space by new and unknown forces in nullsec causing corporations not only to have to fight their known enemies but other enemies anew.
Improved NPC AI so they are not so easily farmed.
Political shifts in power, splintering of previous NPC alliances, devious machinations weakening Concord, the spread of war.
One could go on and on about the various Sci-Fi themes that could take place in EVE without having a fluff avatar to look at...
...I just do not get all that excited by humanoid avatars as far as what that might bring, because we have plenty of games with humanoid avatars and we all know what they bring - so adding that to EVE is not something that excites me in the least.
New Things To Do? Run missions on foot? Because other than that, uh - you know? Fighting is going to be in DUST. So you are going to be left with the walking around stations part of Earth and Beyond or Star Trek Online? Cause the ground fighting is going to be in another game for consoles...
If you think about it, our avatars are our ships - and - they do almost everything that humanoid avatars let us do in other games.
Is it a case that you want to be able to dock at a station, walk through the station, walk into the agent's office, ask them for the mission, walk out of the agent's office, walk back through the station, and get back into your ship... to go do the mission? Some people may want that - and thankfully the devs have said that any changes such as that will not be forced, so those that still just want to dock - call the person - get the mission - and go... can do that.
Are there dreams of walking on planets...thinking that they are going to render whole planets, let you set up a little house there and that? Or is it the simpler thing of having that home in a corporate office? Being able to decorate a room that you will almost never be in? Wait, there are the traders... some people never leave stations. But are they going to be able to see that room under all the open windows they would have? Is it just to be able to pay $15 to log into a 3D chatroom?
For the life of me, I'm trying to figure out how Incarna is more important than other things in the game. Do people think they might finally find a use for those Exotic Dancers? What about the increased load on the servers from people doing nothing in the game aside from being rendered in their pretty outfits as they lurk around - where before they would have logged out when they were not doing anything? Is it for the role-players? Are there going to be a bunch of people standing around and apparently doing nothing while they talk in vent?
If you look at games with humanoid avatars...why do they have them? Well, you do your resource gathering with them. You do your crafting with them. You do your PvE and PvP with them. You do most of your travel with them. You buy new stuff with them. You sell old stuff with them. So...uh...no, having humanoid avatars does not add anything in that sense.
Instead of making sure that you have enough room in your ship to run a courier mission (or calculating how many trips you can make)... you will be picking the book up off the counter and handing it to the agent for a fat wad of iskies?
I really wish I could get a straight answer out of somebody on what they want from Incarna and what they expect it to add to the game... even if it was a case of saying that yes, instead of docking at a station and being able to access everything from their ships - they want to have to walk all over the station to do the same thing because it would make them warm and fuzzy in their happy place to see a humanoid avatar walking around.
I hated that in Earth and Beyond. I hated that in Auto Assault. I hated that in Star Trek Online. To be honest, although I like to put the earbuds in - turn the volume up on my mp3 player and go for long walks... I much rather do my shopping online than have to go to a mall or a store and walk around.
Remember: The ultimate goal in EVE is power.
How does adding fluffy humanoid avatars do that? Capsuleers are only "Immortals" inside their pods inside their ships. Outside...poof...dead...nobody.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Well, since in EVE we are obviously not a ship but a pilot/capsuleer the idea of having an avatar is logical. While it might add little to the existing mechanics, it should bring more life into the game and improve RP over all.
The key word is immersion.
Avatar to avatar communication is much more "personal" then hearing someones voice over the Vent while looking at his static portarit.
So far being in stations is more like being in a game's lobby where you can refit/repair your ship, upgarde clone, buy little something from the market etc. With Incarna a space station will actually feel lika a space station.
Many potential players gave up on EVE because they felt there was nothing to do until you get enough SP to get a decent ship and modules, join a good corp and start PvPing. Even for advanced players there are a lot of gaps, periods between corp events where there is nothing in particular to do. WoS has a good chance to fill this gap and make "doing nothing" an interesting experience. Social experience in MMOs is very important for many players, don't underestimate it.
On the other hand, I like your ideas at the begining of the post and they are probably more important than WoS for most existing players, but still it is far from being a vaste of time and resources.
Well, since in EVE we are obviously not a ship but a pilot/capsuleer the idea of having an avatar is logical. While it might add little to the existing mechanics, it should bring more life into the game and improve RP over all.
The key word is immersion.
Avatar to avatar communication is much more "personal" then hearing someones voice over the Vent while looking at his static portarit.
So far being in stations is more like being in a game's lobby where you can refit/repair your ship, upgarde clone, buy little something from the market etc. With Incarna a space station will actually feel lika a space station.
Many potential players gave up on EVE because they felt there was nothing to do until you get enough SP to get a decent ship and modules, join a good corp and start PvPing. Even for advanced players there are a lot of gaps, periods between corp events where there is nothing in particular to do. WoS has a good chance to fill this gap and make "doing nothing" an interesting experience. Social experience in MMOs is very important for many players, don't underestimate it.
On the other hand, I like your ideas at the begining of the post and they are probably more important than WoS for most existing players, but still it is far from being a vaste of time and resources.
I suppose that is one of the things that I took for granted and enjoyed about EVE. Taking into consideration the offline training and the addition of the queue, I did not have to sit around in EVE with nothing to do while waiting - I could go do other things. Most of the corp interaction in game took place while actually doing something. Most of the planning took place on forums. The need to gather in game and stand around with a humanoid avatar never came to mind in the least. There was never that sense of EVE being a 3D chatroom with an internet spaceships theme - while so many other games feel like little more than 3D chatrooms for game lobbies with various themes.
edit: I disagree about us not having an avatar. There is little difference between being the capsuleer inside the ship and being an elf in armor aside from the humanoid factor. Our character is inside what we see. But then again, considering certain games allow you to hide certain aspects of your gear to show your head and the like... I suppose it is not something I will ever understand. As I have said, it is not a case that I hate games with humanoid avatars - they make sense for those games since what you do, you do as that avatar. What you do in EVE, you do in your ship... so it makes sense to me that the ship is our avatar.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
If you think about it, our avatars are our ships - and - they do almost everything that humanoid avatars let us do in other games.
Yes, but the truth is they allow us to do much more than avatars in other games. A point that is often lost on many. You can be a tank, healer, D dealer and much much more, all in one character, because of ship and their bonuses.
On the rest I don't really agree. I think avatars is the perfect location for CCP to focus their attention. The more they do on the ship side the more they seem to unbalance the game IMO.
Well, since in EVE we are obviously not a ship but a pilot/capsuleer the idea of having an avatar is logical. While it might add little to the existing mechanics, it should bring more life into the game and improve RP over all.
The key word is immersion.
Avatar to avatar communication is much more "personal" then hearing someones voice over the Vent while looking at his static portarit.
So far being in stations is more like being in a game's lobby where you can refit/repair your ship, upgarde clone, buy little something from the market etc. With Incarna a space station will actually feel lika a space station.
Many potential players gave up on EVE because they felt there was nothing to do until you get enough SP to get a decent ship and modules, join a good corp and start PvPing. Even for advanced players there are a lot of gaps, periods between corp events where there is nothing in particular to do. WoS has a good chance to fill this gap and make "doing nothing" an interesting experience. Social experience in MMOs is very important for many players, don't underestimate it.
On the other hand, I like your ideas at the begining of the post and they are probably more important than WoS for most existing players, but still it is far from being a vaste of time and resources.
I suppose that is one of the things that I took for granted and enjoyed about EVE. Taking into consideration the offline training and the addition of the queue, I did not have to sit around in EVE with nothing to do while waiting - I could go do other things. Most of the corp interaction in game took place while actually doing something. Most of the planning took place on forums. The need to gather in game and stand around with a humanoid avatar never came to mind in the least. There was never that sense of EVE being a 3D chatroom with an internet spaceships theme - while so many other games feel like little more than 3D chatrooms for game lobbies with various themes.
edit: I disagree about us not having an avatar. There is little difference between being the capsuleer inside the ship and being an elf in armor aside from the humanoid factor. Our character is inside what we see. But then again, considering certain games allow you to hide certain aspects of your gear to show your head and the like... I suppose it is not something I will ever understand. As I have said, it is not a case that I hate games with humanoid avatars - they make sense for those games since what you do, you do as that avatar. What you do in EVE, you do in your ship... so it makes sense to me that the ship is our avatar.
I think the point many are trying to get across is most people find it hard to identify with an inanimate object (a ship) vs. a avatar that is not inanimate (whether it be human/animal/alien/etc). In fact I'd go as so far as to think that alot of Eve players identify with their portrait than what ship they are flying, especially since that ship changes from time to time. Some things you take for granted in other games feel glaring when they are missing in Eve. Lets take trading for instance. Although in most games you can mail items to one another, being able to physically stand next to someone to trade an item for you lends itself to immersion.
Another example is combat, which feels very non-immersive to me. Maybe it's because i'm not that into strategy type games but I wouldn't be surprised if others feel this way as well.
This from the guy who decried ambulation as "fluff"?
:eyeroll:
And you do not see the difference at all? One is fluff customization for something that is a key part of the game, allowing people that sense of individuality. One is fluff...period.
Sorry that I stepped on your eye as it was rolling across the floor, but then again you were not using it for anything anyway...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I think the point many are trying to get across is most people find it hard to identify with an inanimate object (a ship) vs. a avatar that is not inanimate (whether it be human/animal/alien/etc). In fact I'd go as so far as to think that alot of Eve players identify with their portrait than what ship they are flying, especially since that ship changes from time to time. Some things you take for granted in other games feel glaring when they are missing in Eve. Lets take trading for instance. Although in most games you can mail items to one another, being able to physically stand next to someone to trade an item for you lends itself to immersion.
Another example is combat, which feels very non-immersive to me. Maybe it's because i'm not that into strategy type games but I wouldn't be surprised if others feel this way as well.
So they want to be able to walk over to a person with several tons of goods in their backpack and barter?
So they want combat to be twitch based?
I guess it comes from having been a PnP RPer. Most did not have "avatars" - you were whatever portrait you doodled on your character sheet. It was more with the strategy type gamers that had miniatures as representations of their characters and the like, that you ended up with those little 3D avatars...
...funny how that works, eh?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
There is one class. There are many roles. There is one goal. I am a capsuleer, an immortal god compared to the ordinary inhabitant of the universe we inhabit. Whether by myself, as a member of a corporation, or as a member of an alliance; I wield vast power that the ordinary people of the universe can only dream of...and fear.
While piloting the various ships that I am able, I take on missions for different factions that armies of ordinary men and women could not take on...in the great expanse of space, I am a hero of renown - or - I am a villain of infamy.
Acting on behalf of myself or my corporation, I partake in the vicious battles that take place on the market. Manipulating transactions that could buy and sell whole planets, I seek to earn power through profit.
Celestial bodies that have existed for hundreds of thousands of years fall prey to my desires, as I mine them for the resources I need or as raw goods to sell to others.
Using the monumental resources unavailable to communities of the average man or woman, I build technological wonders they would find magical from their primitive perspectives.
But I am not alone in this universe. There are others that seek power as I do. There are other immortal gods. We do battle on the markets, we do battle in controlling the immense resources in the universe, and we do battle...for power.
The person that I call an ally today, may be an enemy tomorrow. The universe is full of betrayal.
As a capsuleer, from my ship - working alone, with others, or against others; I can do things no ordinary inhabitant of this universe could.
My enemies may destroy my ship. My enemies may destroy the very pod I inhabit while piloting that ship. But I will live on. And though my path to power may have its setbacks, though I may lose areas of space, though I may lose billions of isk, there is no stopping me...for I am no ordinary man. I am a capsuleer. And the universe is mine for the taking...
* * *
So no, given the nature of EVE... I really cannot see where the lack of immersion is. If there is a problem, it is not the game - it is the person. CCP cannot fix the people... even if they were to go out and hire a bunch of psychologists, psychiatrists, and therapists.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Like I said, I'm really trying to understand this...so I was out having a ciggy and thinking about it. I may or may not have had an epiphany. I can see where the "human" element is missing. Capsuleers are beyond human. They do not need to eat in a normal way, they do not have to dispose of waste in a normal way, they do not have to sleep. They do not have to exercise. Within the pod, all biological functions and the like are taken care of. There is no need for down time in that sense. There is no getting hungry, thirsty, tired, or anything of that nature. They are not "human" in that sense. In exchange for all the cybernetic implants, including a cybernetic brain that learns differently than a normal person and far more than a mere human could, for the ability to create clones, move between them...it brings up the question of a soul, eh? A capsuleer's body does not matter - if it is damaged, there is another. The capsuleer is no more "attached" to their body than they are their ships.
Adding humanoid avatars will not change that...it will not add a human element.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Like I said, I'm really trying to understand this...so I was out having a ciggy and thinking about it. I may or may not have had an epiphany. I can see where the "human" element is missing. Capsuleers are beyond human. They do not need to eat in a normal way, they do not have to dispose of waste in a normal way, they do not have to sleep. They do not have to exercise. Within the pod, all biological functions and the like are taken care of. There is no need for down time in that sense. There is no getting hungry, thirsty, tired, or anything of that nature. They are not "human" in that sense. In exchange for all the cybernetic implants, including a cybernetic brain that learns differently than a normal person and far more than a mere human could, for the ability to create clones, move between them...it brings up the question of a soul, eh? A capsuleer's body does not matter - if it is damaged, there is another. The capsuleer is no more "attached" to their body than they are their ships.
Adding humanoid avatars will not change that...it will not add a human element.
Are you suggesting you also take a dump inside your capsule?
Like I said, I'm really trying to understand this...so I was out having a ciggy and thinking about it. I may or may not have had an epiphany. I can see where the "human" element is missing. Capsuleers are beyond human. They do not need to eat in a normal way, they do not have to dispose of waste in a normal way, they do not have to sleep. They do not have to exercise. Within the pod, all biological functions and the like are taken care of. There is no need for down time in that sense. There is no getting hungry, thirsty, tired, or anything of that nature. They are not "human" in that sense. In exchange for all the cybernetic implants, including a cybernetic brain that learns differently than a normal person and far more than a mere human could, for the ability to create clones, move between them...it brings up the question of a soul, eh? A capsuleer's body does not matter - if it is damaged, there is another. The capsuleer is no more "attached" to their body than they are their ships.
Adding humanoid avatars will not change that...it will not add a human element.
Are you suggesting you also take a dump inside your capsule?
You know... we do come out when the nature calls.
Actually, yes - I am. You spend hours and days in the goo. Biological waste would simply be reprocessed. You urinate there, you defecate there, you eat there, you are pumped full of biologicals/chemicals so you do not need sleep there.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
This from the guy who decried ambulation as "fluff"?
:eyeroll:
And you do not see the difference at all? One is fluff customization for something that is a key part of the game, allowing people that sense of individuality. One is fluff...period.
Sorry that I stepped on your eye as it was rolling across the floor, but then again you were not using it for anything anyway...
You're proving your conclusions with your assumptions: "Ambulation activities aren't a key part of the game now therefore they will never be a key part of the game." Sorry mate, that's just nonsensical. All I'm seeing from you is a big pile of one-sided speculation as to what ambulation will be like, with you taking the most negative possible view of every aspect.
If you really think Incarna will be that trivial... then just ignore it. Carry on and play the game you enjoy. Why get so upset about it?
You're proving your conclusions with your assumptions: "Ambulation activities aren't a key part of the game now therefore they will never be a key part of the game." Sorry mate, that's just nonsensical. All I'm seeing from you is a big pile of one-sided speculation as to what ambulation will be like, with you taking the most negative possible view of every aspect.
If you really think Incarna will be that trivial... then just ignore it. Carry on and play the game you enjoy. Why get so upset about it?
Actually, that is not quite right. I'm asking how they could be a key part of the game. Nothing other than fluff has been stated. As to why one would get upset about it, comes down to developer resources. If they are spending time developing something they have no clear plan for implementing any key elements, that time could have been spent furthering the actual game.
I have not been antagonistic, I have not been argumentative, or anything of the like in asking peeople what they think Incarna will lead to in the game.
Early dev chatter included such things as PvP, but they realized that would not work because of Concord - and in turn - CCP is doing DUST514 for humanoid based PvP. They have talked about socializing - but that violates the lore they have created, and if they are going to do so - how so? What changes do they plan to bring aorund?
Is asking Why? too much to ask?
What seems nonsensical to me is asking for something that does not fit the game in any sense... for the reasons that are being given.
CCP has a history of implementing "nifty" features without thinking them through...nowhere near as bad as some of the games out there (nowhere near by a longshot), but this appears to be one.
Why are they adding this feature? What role will it play in the game? Simple questions, no? Where are the answers?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
If nothing else, CCP will create Incarna for people like her. Dont imagine that there aren't lots of them, and their $15 spends as well as anyone's.
So she wants MMORPGs to be IMVU?
Okay, that was on the antagonistic side - but face it, that is what she is saying. The meat of an MMORPG is work - she just wants to chat. She is willing to do the work, so she can afford to look pretty while she chats.
Considering that MMORPGs are already so diluted, have become so casual, swimming in fluff... forget it.
There is no reason that this dicussion need take place in the EVE area, it is just part of the greater issue of what is wrong with MMORPGs and where they are heading - that we have too many threads on already.
So my quest for an answer is done. Not saying that is the only reason, but it seems to be a big reason - and as said in countless other threads, if you do not like it - leave...
Take care, all.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
To be honest i think the tutorial leads the player in a one way road. It's too carebear based. It would be better if some of the tutorials went into wormholes, or null sec to complete minor tasks. But they'd get a feel of how it is inside those palces.
Personally i remember doing the tutorial, and it was only after 3 months i delved into no pve related stuff. I just forgot my past 3 months play and joined my corp in a c4 wh FUNNEST THING EVER! Taking down POS's, Sleepers, we're also building a carrier in there too - just soo much excitement.
I just can't get past the fact that when defeated, you lose your ship and everything on it.
Insurance or not, it doesn't cover the monetary loss of a complete loss of the ship and gear. For a new player like me, and considering how costly the ships are, how easily it can happen with players, it's too much.
Alot of the core aspects of the game I do like but the loss is not to my liking.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I just can't get past the fact that when defeated, you lose your ship and everything on it.
Insurance or not, it doesn't cover the monetary loss of a complete loss of the ship and gear. For a new player like me, and considering how costly the ships are, how easily it can happen with players, it's too much.
Alot of the core aspects of the game I do like but the loss is not to my liking.
You know how people keep chanting "dont fly what you can't afford to lose" at you?
I just can't get past the fact that when defeated, you lose your ship and everything on it.
Insurance or not, it doesn't cover the monetary loss of a complete loss of the ship and gear. For a new player like me, and considering how costly the ships are, how easily it can happen with players, it's too much.
Alot of the core aspects of the game I do like but the loss is not to my liking.
You know how people keep chanting "dont fly what you can't afford to lose" at you?
Yeah, there's a reason for that.
And therein lies the issue for some people. Ship progression is a major element in the game.
You spend time getting enough money together and the right skills to buy and fly a decent ship, but because you're afraid to permanently lose all that time and effort, you keep it in the hangar collecting dust. Why bother buying it in the first place then? And more to the point if you remove the ship progression element from the game, what is left in the game? Grinding agent missions? Nah. Repetitively mining? That gets old real fast. PVP? Well, that brings us right back to the start of this post.
So instead, you activate the skills that you want to train, log off and check again in a few days. Real fun.
In short, though some people like Eve, some of its mechanics are a big turn off for others. I'm not demanding that Eve should change, just pointing out how some of its strengths can also be its weaknesses in terms of popularity in other playstyles.
Comments
You have an avatar. Is it a humanoid avatar? No. But you have an avatar. Much like the avatars in many games will wear different outfits, whether fluff or of use...your avatar in EVE is able to equip different outfits...different ships.
I think the people need to be honest with what they want here...they want additional customization so they do not feel like everybody else, and that is what EVE kind of forces on people - two people each in a Hurricane are still just two people in a Hurricane. Ten people in Hurricanes are ten people in Hurricanes. There is that new factor when they do release new ships every twenty million years or so, but then pretty soon - it is just ten people in a Tengu.
I'd rather have fluff customization of the avatars we need than to add fluff avatars we do not need.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
For the most part, MMORPG gamers love to become attached to and develop a familiar type of avatar. It would seem they have difficulty finding that same connection with a Spaceship.
Besides the guys who started CCP originally wanted this in game for launch as well PI and atmospheric flight. When it came down to applying every feature at once, they wisely chose to stick with ships only for launch. It was necessary to maintain the quality of the game. Cryptic really should have considered why CCP made this decision when they took over Star Trek Online from Perpetual Entertainment.
Even though it has taken many years, they are now finally getting around to putting in the originally intended features. Looks like a lot of EVE players just got used to the way things were.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I remember doing the demo for STO. I admit that I liked the character creation aspect (but then again, I've spent more time designing characters in CoH than I have playing them). I remember that once that character actually started to move, I was not as happy. I remember the first time I jumped (and I wondered if the game was still in early beta or even late alpha). The combat was bad...real bad. In a twisted sense, having the real bad player combat detracts from the bad ship combat, eh?
In the past few days, as these discussions have been going on - I have wondered a few times, how much better STO would have been were it more in line with what EVE is...and I have wondered how much worse off EVE will be, being more like STO.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
By definition, people who like playing EVE already dont "need" an avatar to enjoy the spaceships part of the game. They wont get the immediate benefit of the "imagination hook" that people like Teala clearly want and need.
But longer term, the existing players will get the other benefit, which is that new areas of gameplay will be opened up. There's not really much more CCP can do to enhance the sspaceships part of EVE. More space? Sure, I guess. That's not really adding more gameplay, is it? Just widening the stage. More shiptypes? To fill what role? We have more than enough already, unless someone can think up something genuinely new.
CCP have always said that their long-term aim is for EVE not just to be a spaceships game, but a full SF simulator. Incarna is a major, major step towards achieving that goal. The initial release will be fairly fluffy, I reckon. If you're only concerned with spaceships, then you wont get a lot from it. But the potential is what should excite you. New Things To Do is what the ambulation project is all about, and it's why bittervets should care about it.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Are you kidding? There is so much that could be done on the ship side. More variety of ships. More modular ships. A more realistic approach to slots on larger ships. The ability to build better versions of the same ships through research - the ability to build worse versions of the same ships for cheaper. Paint. Corporate logos. Custom hulls. You could go on and on with what could be done with the ships themselves.
More space? Yes, more space. Not just wormholes, but the ability to expand the known reaches of space - kind of like what took place when folks first came through the Gate. Exploration - diplomacy with lost tribes other factions - and even alien races. What have the Jovians been protecting us from?
Random invasions of various sectors of space by new and unknown forces in nullsec causing corporations not only to have to fight their known enemies but other enemies anew.
Improved NPC AI so they are not so easily farmed.
Political shifts in power, splintering of previous NPC alliances, devious machinations weakening Concord, the spread of war.
One could go on and on about the various Sci-Fi themes that could take place in EVE without having a fluff avatar to look at...
...I just do not get all that excited by humanoid avatars as far as what that might bring, because we have plenty of games with humanoid avatars and we all know what they bring - so adding that to EVE is not something that excites me in the least.
New Things To Do? Run missions on foot? Because other than that, uh - you know? Fighting is going to be in DUST. So you are going to be left with the walking around stations part of Earth and Beyond or Star Trek Online? Cause the ground fighting is going to be in another game for consoles...
If you think about it, our avatars are our ships - and - they do almost everything that humanoid avatars let us do in other games.
Is it a case that you want to be able to dock at a station, walk through the station, walk into the agent's office, ask them for the mission, walk out of the agent's office, walk back through the station, and get back into your ship... to go do the mission? Some people may want that - and thankfully the devs have said that any changes such as that will not be forced, so those that still just want to dock - call the person - get the mission - and go... can do that.
Are there dreams of walking on planets...thinking that they are going to render whole planets, let you set up a little house there and that? Or is it the simpler thing of having that home in a corporate office? Being able to decorate a room that you will almost never be in? Wait, there are the traders... some people never leave stations. But are they going to be able to see that room under all the open windows they would have? Is it just to be able to pay $15 to log into a 3D chatroom?
For the life of me, I'm trying to figure out how Incarna is more important than other things in the game. Do people think they might finally find a use for those Exotic Dancers? What about the increased load on the servers from people doing nothing in the game aside from being rendered in their pretty outfits as they lurk around - where before they would have logged out when they were not doing anything? Is it for the role-players? Are there going to be a bunch of people standing around and apparently doing nothing while they talk in vent?
If you look at games with humanoid avatars...why do they have them? Well, you do your resource gathering with them. You do your crafting with them. You do your PvE and PvP with them. You do most of your travel with them. You buy new stuff with them. You sell old stuff with them. So...uh...no, having humanoid avatars does not add anything in that sense.
Instead of making sure that you have enough room in your ship to run a courier mission (or calculating how many trips you can make)... you will be picking the book up off the counter and handing it to the agent for a fat wad of iskies?
I really wish I could get a straight answer out of somebody on what they want from Incarna and what they expect it to add to the game... even if it was a case of saying that yes, instead of docking at a station and being able to access everything from their ships - they want to have to walk all over the station to do the same thing because it would make them warm and fuzzy in their happy place to see a humanoid avatar walking around.
I hated that in Earth and Beyond. I hated that in Auto Assault. I hated that in Star Trek Online. To be honest, although I like to put the earbuds in - turn the volume up on my mp3 player and go for long walks... I much rather do my shopping online than have to go to a mall or a store and walk around.
Remember: The ultimate goal in EVE is power.
How does adding fluffy humanoid avatars do that? Capsuleers are only "Immortals" inside their pods inside their ships. Outside...poof...dead...nobody.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Well, since in EVE we are obviously not a ship but a pilot/capsuleer the idea of having an avatar is logical. While it might add little to the existing mechanics, it should bring more life into the game and improve RP over all.
The key word is immersion.
Avatar to avatar communication is much more "personal" then hearing someones voice over the Vent while looking at his static portarit.
So far being in stations is more like being in a game's lobby where you can refit/repair your ship, upgarde clone, buy little something from the market etc. With Incarna a space station will actually feel lika a space station.
Many potential players gave up on EVE because they felt there was nothing to do until you get enough SP to get a decent ship and modules, join a good corp and start PvPing. Even for advanced players there are a lot of gaps, periods between corp events where there is nothing in particular to do. WoS has a good chance to fill this gap and make "doing nothing" an interesting experience. Social experience in MMOs is very important for many players, don't underestimate it.
On the other hand, I like your ideas at the begining of the post and they are probably more important than WoS for most existing players, but still it is far from being a vaste of time and resources.
I suppose that is one of the things that I took for granted and enjoyed about EVE. Taking into consideration the offline training and the addition of the queue, I did not have to sit around in EVE with nothing to do while waiting - I could go do other things. Most of the corp interaction in game took place while actually doing something. Most of the planning took place on forums. The need to gather in game and stand around with a humanoid avatar never came to mind in the least. There was never that sense of EVE being a 3D chatroom with an internet spaceships theme - while so many other games feel like little more than 3D chatrooms for game lobbies with various themes.
edit: I disagree about us not having an avatar. There is little difference between being the capsuleer inside the ship and being an elf in armor aside from the humanoid factor. Our character is inside what we see. But then again, considering certain games allow you to hide certain aspects of your gear to show your head and the like... I suppose it is not something I will ever understand. As I have said, it is not a case that I hate games with humanoid avatars - they make sense for those games since what you do, you do as that avatar. What you do in EVE, you do in your ship... so it makes sense to me that the ship is our avatar.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Yes, but the truth is they allow us to do much more than avatars in other games. A point that is often lost on many. You can be a tank, healer, D dealer and much much more, all in one character, because of ship and their bonuses.
On the rest I don't really agree. I think avatars is the perfect location for CCP to focus their attention. The more they do on the ship side the more they seem to unbalance the game IMO.
This from the guy who decried ambulation as "fluff"?
:eyeroll:
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I think the point many are trying to get across is most people find it hard to identify with an inanimate object (a ship) vs. a avatar that is not inanimate (whether it be human/animal/alien/etc). In fact I'd go as so far as to think that alot of Eve players identify with their portrait than what ship they are flying, especially since that ship changes from time to time. Some things you take for granted in other games feel glaring when they are missing in Eve. Lets take trading for instance. Although in most games you can mail items to one another, being able to physically stand next to someone to trade an item for you lends itself to immersion.
Another example is combat, which feels very non-immersive to me. Maybe it's because i'm not that into strategy type games but I wouldn't be surprised if others feel this way as well.
And you do not see the difference at all? One is fluff customization for something that is a key part of the game, allowing people that sense of individuality. One is fluff...period.
Sorry that I stepped on your eye as it was rolling across the floor, but then again you were not using it for anything anyway...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
So they want to be able to walk over to a person with several tons of goods in their backpack and barter?
So they want combat to be twitch based?
I guess it comes from having been a PnP RPer. Most did not have "avatars" - you were whatever portrait you doodled on your character sheet. It was more with the strategy type gamers that had miniatures as representations of their characters and the like, that you ended up with those little 3D avatars...
...funny how that works, eh?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
There is one class. There are many roles. There is one goal. I am a capsuleer, an immortal god compared to the ordinary inhabitant of the universe we inhabit. Whether by myself, as a member of a corporation, or as a member of an alliance; I wield vast power that the ordinary people of the universe can only dream of...and fear.
While piloting the various ships that I am able, I take on missions for different factions that armies of ordinary men and women could not take on...in the great expanse of space, I am a hero of renown - or - I am a villain of infamy.
Acting on behalf of myself or my corporation, I partake in the vicious battles that take place on the market. Manipulating transactions that could buy and sell whole planets, I seek to earn power through profit.
Celestial bodies that have existed for hundreds of thousands of years fall prey to my desires, as I mine them for the resources I need or as raw goods to sell to others.
Using the monumental resources unavailable to communities of the average man or woman, I build technological wonders they would find magical from their primitive perspectives.
But I am not alone in this universe. There are others that seek power as I do. There are other immortal gods. We do battle on the markets, we do battle in controlling the immense resources in the universe, and we do battle...for power.
The person that I call an ally today, may be an enemy tomorrow. The universe is full of betrayal.
As a capsuleer, from my ship - working alone, with others, or against others; I can do things no ordinary inhabitant of this universe could.
My enemies may destroy my ship. My enemies may destroy the very pod I inhabit while piloting that ship. But I will live on. And though my path to power may have its setbacks, though I may lose areas of space, though I may lose billions of isk, there is no stopping me...for I am no ordinary man. I am a capsuleer. And the universe is mine for the taking...
* * *
So no, given the nature of EVE... I really cannot see where the lack of immersion is. If there is a problem, it is not the game - it is the person. CCP cannot fix the people... even if they were to go out and hire a bunch of psychologists, psychiatrists, and therapists.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Like I said, I'm really trying to understand this...so I was out having a ciggy and thinking about it. I may or may not have had an epiphany. I can see where the "human" element is missing. Capsuleers are beyond human. They do not need to eat in a normal way, they do not have to dispose of waste in a normal way, they do not have to sleep. They do not have to exercise. Within the pod, all biological functions and the like are taken care of. There is no need for down time in that sense. There is no getting hungry, thirsty, tired, or anything of that nature. They are not "human" in that sense. In exchange for all the cybernetic implants, including a cybernetic brain that learns differently than a normal person and far more than a mere human could, for the ability to create clones, move between them...it brings up the question of a soul, eh? A capsuleer's body does not matter - if it is damaged, there is another. The capsuleer is no more "attached" to their body than they are their ships.
Adding humanoid avatars will not change that...it will not add a human element.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Are you suggesting you also take a dump inside your capsule?
You know... we do come out when the nature calls.
Actually, yes - I am. You spend hours and days in the goo. Biological waste would simply be reprocessed. You urinate there, you defecate there, you eat there, you are pumped full of biologicals/chemicals so you do not need sleep there.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
You're proving your conclusions with your assumptions: "Ambulation activities aren't a key part of the game now therefore they will never be a key part of the game." Sorry mate, that's just nonsensical. All I'm seeing from you is a big pile of one-sided speculation as to what ambulation will be like, with you taking the most negative possible view of every aspect.
If you really think Incarna will be that trivial... then just ignore it. Carry on and play the game you enjoy. Why get so upset about it?
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Actually, that is not quite right. I'm asking how they could be a key part of the game. Nothing other than fluff has been stated. As to why one would get upset about it, comes down to developer resources. If they are spending time developing something they have no clear plan for implementing any key elements, that time could have been spent furthering the actual game.
I have not been antagonistic, I have not been argumentative, or anything of the like in asking peeople what they think Incarna will lead to in the game.
Early dev chatter included such things as PvP, but they realized that would not work because of Concord - and in turn - CCP is doing DUST514 for humanoid based PvP. They have talked about socializing - but that violates the lore they have created, and if they are going to do so - how so? What changes do they plan to bring aorund?
Is asking Why? too much to ask?
What seems nonsensical to me is asking for something that does not fit the game in any sense... for the reasons that are being given.
CCP has a history of implementing "nifty" features without thinking them through...nowhere near as bad as some of the games out there (nowhere near by a longshot), but this appears to be one.
Why are they adding this feature? What role will it play in the game? Simple questions, no? Where are the answers?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Although I dont know exactly what it entails, there will be some kind of illegal activity in stations(or at least it seems so).
Source teaser: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yCcRMNT-WI
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/358/feature/4306/page/1
If nothing else, CCP will create Incarna for people like her. Dont imagine that there aren't lots of them, and their $15 spends as well as anyone's.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
So she wants MMORPGs to be IMVU?
Okay, that was on the antagonistic side - but face it, that is what she is saying. The meat of an MMORPG is work - she just wants to chat. She is willing to do the work, so she can afford to look pretty while she chats.
Considering that MMORPGs are already so diluted, have become so casual, swimming in fluff... forget it.
There is no reason that this dicussion need take place in the EVE area, it is just part of the greater issue of what is wrong with MMORPGs and where they are heading - that we have too many threads on already.
So my quest for an answer is done. Not saying that is the only reason, but it seems to be a big reason - and as said in countless other threads, if you do not like it - leave...
Take care, all.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
To be honest i think the tutorial leads the player in a one way road. It's too carebear based. It would be better if some of the tutorials went into wormholes, or null sec to complete minor tasks. But they'd get a feel of how it is inside those palces.
Personally i remember doing the tutorial, and it was only after 3 months i delved into no pve related stuff. I just forgot my past 3 months play and joined my corp in a c4 wh
FUNNEST THING EVER! Taking down POS's, Sleepers, we're also building a carrier in there too - just soo much excitement.
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I just can't get past the fact that when defeated, you lose your ship and everything on it.
Insurance or not, it doesn't cover the monetary loss of a complete loss of the ship and gear. For a new player like me, and considering how costly the ships are, how easily it can happen with players, it's too much.
Alot of the core aspects of the game I do like but the loss is not to my liking.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
You know how people keep chanting "dont fly what you can't afford to lose" at you?
Yeah, there's a reason for that.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
And therein lies the issue for some people. Ship progression is a major element in the game.
You spend time getting enough money together and the right skills to buy and fly a decent ship, but because you're afraid to permanently lose all that time and effort, you keep it in the hangar collecting dust. Why bother buying it in the first place then? And more to the point if you remove the ship progression element from the game, what is left in the game? Grinding agent missions? Nah. Repetitively mining? That gets old real fast. PVP? Well, that brings us right back to the start of this post.
So instead, you activate the skills that you want to train, log off and check again in a few days. Real fun.
In short, though some people like Eve, some of its mechanics are a big turn off for others. I'm not demanding that Eve should change, just pointing out how some of its strengths can also be its weaknesses in terms of popularity in other playstyles.
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