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The beginning of the end for this game

24

Comments

  • KaoRyxKaoRyx Member Posts: 68
    For some reason I get the feeling that this won't change anything noticeably. I feel like no one ACTUALLY cares, everyone who was planning to play will still play, and that this is just another reason for people who are anticipating TOR (but nervous of being heartbroken) to blindly assume everything that could possibly go wrong, will.
    It's one of the most hyped games ever, we get one or two morsels of info a week that are essentially nothing. But because the game is so incomplete everyone latches onto the smallest things and screams bloody murder.
    Face it: SWG is still alive despite a horrible launch and a multitude of awful developer decisions. Someone is responsible for it's survival and my money is on the dev who people call "the best". Regular forum goers have a tendency to complain a lot and nitpick. Try to maintain a positive outlook, sometimes game companies make decisions that are good! (yes! Really!)

    Someday we'll all look back on the age of computers - and lol.

  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,903

    Originally posted by Benjola

    I have a feeling that SWTOR will be the flop of the century, a massive failure of monumental proportions.

    I hope for Bioware's sake I'm wrong (they make decent single player RPGs that I enjoy).

    I've been following this game for a year now and its clear to me that both Bioware and LA are out of touch with the MMO comunity, kinda like Funcom was with AoC, good intentions and hard workers but unable to understand the difference between MMO and SP gamer.

    Depends on what you mean by flop. I think they will make enough in box sales to cover development, personally. Probably pre-orders alone too.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • BattlesABattlesA Member UncommonPosts: 26

    I am certainly glad that this is the end of SWG and the beginning for TOR. Just because a developer moved from a failed game and into a new one doesn't mean that the new game is going to turn out like the old. (Unless bioware does something stupid like hire Smedly to oversee the project.) 

    I think that BioWare wants to keep their credibility in the gaming world and not follow the path of SOE's destruction of SWG.

  • BenjolaBenjola Member UncommonPosts: 843

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

     

    I just don't think they are aiming for MMO players.

    KOTOR fans? Hell, yes.

    BioWare fans? For sure.

    Star Wars fans? Kinda.

    MMO players? Meh. Throw in the the standard features and see how many stick around for a while.

     

    Now, they could still show us a kick-ass PvP campaign - with RvR elements and great balance and performance, and super fun space combat. If they did that (and had no cash shop), I would buy and play it.

    I might even dabble a little in the solo character storylines.

    Ok, I agree with this post, that's exactly how it looks like.

    Bioware should come clean though and stop pretending they are making some kind of revolutionary MMORPG they are just embarrassing themselves and are putting a very hard earned good reputation on the line here.

    Just come clean, admit MMO parts are half-assed and go with payment method GW2 is using...imo.

    I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  • BenjolaBenjola Member UncommonPosts: 843

    Originally posted by Palebane

    Originally posted by Benjola

    I have a feeling that SWTOR will be the flop of the century, a massive failure of monumental proportions.

    I hope for Bioware's sake I'm wrong (they make decent single player RPGs that I enjoy).

    I've been following this game for a year now and its clear to me that both Bioware and LA are out of touch with the MMO comunity, kinda like Funcom was with AoC, good intentions and hard workers but unable to understand the difference between MMO and SP gamer.

    Depends on what you mean by flop. I think they will make enough in box sales to cover development, personally. Probably pre-orders alone too.

    I believe that too but Funcom made money with AoC at launch too and so did the idiots at Cryptic with STO.

    Both games are considered failures though.

    I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,813

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    Originally posted by Benjola

    I have a feeling that SWTOR will be the flop of the century, a massive failure of monumental proportions.

    I hope for Bioware's sake I'm wrong (they make decent single player RPGs that I enjoy).

    I've been following this game for a year now and its clear to me that both Bioware and LA are out of touch with the MMO comunity, kinda like Funcom was with AoC, good intentions and hard workers but unable to understand the difference between MMO and SP gamer.

    I just don't think they are aiming for MMO players.

    KOTOR fans? Hell, yes.

    BioWare fans? For sure.

    Star Wars fans? Kinda.

    MMO players? Meh. Throw in the the standard features and see how many stick around for a while.

     

    Now, they could still show us a kick-ass PvP campaign - with RvR elements and great balance and performance, and super fun space combat. If they did that (and had no cash shop), I would buy and play it.

    I might even dabble a little in the solo character storylines.

    I actually agree with you, they aren't going for mmo players. But I do think they are going for Star Wars Fans, not "kind of". For fans it's as much of a legitimate Star Wars property as any of the novels or comics.




  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    Originally posted by jaxsundane



    At some point people should think about their own credibility before going all out to prove a point that you may feel strongly about because even if things go bad for this game no reasonable person is going to think this would be the reason why.

    It only takes one man with match to start a forest fire.

     

    It's very easy for an individual to ruin a complex project.

    Since we're into analogies to "prove" a point: it only takes one talented topscorer to make a team win the Champions League.

     

    People nowadays are quick to condemn others if in their eyes they made a mistake once or are linked in some way to a failed project, to them these devs, game directors, lead designers are forever tainted no matter what these people do. Funnily enough, it doesn't work the other way around: former successes of these devs and designers don't count, only the failure, and when a project afterwards succeeds where they were linked to then it's because of the "other devs and designers" that worked at the project.

     

    Seems that a lot of people like to see the glass half empty far more than seeing the glass half full.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • RageaholRageahol Member UncommonPosts: 1,127

    cause GW2  maybe the last hope for MMOs who want to change the basics....TOR has been out of my mind for a long time

    image

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    I just don't think they are aiming for MMO players.

    MMO players? Meh. Throw in the the standard features and see how many stick around for a while.

     

    Now, they could still show us a kick-ass PvP campaign - with RvR elements and great balance and performance, and super fun space combat. If they did that (and had no cash shop), I would buy and play it.

    I actually agree with you, they aren't going for mmo players. But I do think they are going for Star Wars Fans, not "kind of". For fans it's as much of a legitimate Star Wars property as any of the novels or comics.

     

    Wait a minute. Wasn't the base of WoW's success, as so many on this forum love to repeat, not the graphics but the polish with which they delivered their game? Seems to me that WoW has proven that polish and smooth gameplay is more important to the majority of MMO gamers than innovative features.

     

    Bioware has a reputation of delivering high quality games and their releases not being rush jobs, so they have large credit that those aspects that matters to most of the MMO gamers, polish and smooth gameplay, will be there at release.

    Of course, no one can tell for sure until a beta has arrived.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    Originally posted by cyphers

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter


    Originally posted by jaxsundane



    At some point people should think about their own credibility before going all out to prove a point that you may feel strongly about because even if things go bad for this game no reasonable person is going to think this would be the reason why.

    It only takes one man with match to start a forest fire.

     

    It's very easy for an individual to ruin a complex project.

    Since we're into analogies to "prove" a point: it only takes one talented topscorer to make a team win the Champions League.

    Untrue. He won't make an average team excell. Rooney and Messi didn't win this year. But a bad keeper can destroy his team's chances.

    People nowadays are quick to condemn others if in their eyes they made a mistake once or are linked in some way to a failed project, to them these devs, game directors, lead designers are forever tainted no matter what these people do. Funnily enough, it doesn't work the other way around: former successes of these devs and designers don't count, only the failure, and when a project afterwards succeeds where they were linked to then it's because of the "other devs and designers" that worked at the project.

     

    Seems that a lot of people like to see the glass half empty far more than seeing the glass half full.

    Half-full, half-empty. Two different ways of saying half-assed.

    If someone fails, then they have to prove they can succeed.

    If someone succeeds once, then they have the benefit of my doubt.

    If someone succeeds twice, then they have my confidence thet they will produce quality in the future.

    Has anyone ever succeeded twice in this industry?

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    I actually agree with you, they aren't going for mmo players. But I do think they are going for Star Wars Fans, not "kind of". For fans it's as much of a legitimate Star Wars property as any of the novels or comics.

    Indeed. I have only ever read one of the novels, and none of the comics.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • slprslpr Member Posts: 340

    They never said they were doing a revolutionary mmo, they always said they will stick to classic mmo's but will introduce one or two different things like full voice mmo for example.

    image

  • gandalesgandales Member UncommonPosts: 472

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    Originally posted by cyphers


    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter


    Originally posted by jaxsundane



    At some point people should think about their own credibility before going all out to prove a point that you may feel strongly about because even if things go bad for this game no reasonable person is going to think this would be the reason why.

    It only takes one man with match to start a forest fire.

     

    It's very easy for an individual to ruin a complex project.

    Since we're into analogies to "prove" a point: it only takes one talented topscorer to make a team win the Champions League.

    Untrue. He won't make an average team excell. Rooney and Messi didn't win this year. But a bad keeper can destroy his team's chances.

    People nowadays are quick to condemn others if in their eyes they made a mistake once or are linked in some way to a failed project, to them these devs, game directors, lead designers are forever tainted no matter what these people do. Funnily enough, it doesn't work the other way around: former successes of these devs and designers don't count, only the failure, and when a project afterwards succeeds where they were linked to then it's because of the "other devs and designers" that worked at the project.

     

    Seems that a lot of people like to see the glass half empty far more than seeing the glass half full.

    Half-full, half-empty. Two different ways of saying half-assed.

    If someone fails, then they have to prove they can succeed.

    If someone succeeds once, then they have the benefit of my doubt.

    If someone succeeds twice, then they have my confidence thet they will produce quality in the future.

    Has anyone ever succeeded twice in this industry?

    Sometimes people in these forums get so serious that I wonder if they are buying games or stocks

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,813

    Originally posted by cyphers

    Originally posted by Sovrath


    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter



    I just don't think they are aiming for MMO players.

    MMO players? Meh. Throw in the the standard features and see how many stick around for a while.

     

    Now, they could still show us a kick-ass PvP campaign - with RvR elements and great balance and performance, and super fun space combat. If they did that (and had no cash shop), I would buy and play it.

    I actually agree with you, they aren't going for mmo players. But I do think they are going for Star Wars Fans, not "kind of". For fans it's as much of a legitimate Star Wars property as any of the novels or comics.

     

    Wait a minute. Wasn't the base of WoW's success, as so many on this forum love to repeat, not the graphics but the polish with which they delivered their game? Seems to me that WoW has proven that polish and smooth gameplay is more important to the majority of MMO gamers than innovative features.

     

    Bioware has a reputation of delivering high quality games and their releases not being rush jobs, so they have large credit that those aspects that matters to most of the MMO gamers, polish and smooth gameplay, will be there at release.

    Of course, no one can tell for sure until a beta has arrived.

    I can't disagree with you because polish is exceptionally important. I also agree with you that Bioware has a very good reputation and I am a fan of their games. Though I would add that I haven never played a bioware game that didn't have some sort of minor bugs. Nothing game breaking but a few instnaces where I had to roll my eyes or take a deep breath.

    But the point is they are not aiming for mmo players but for players who are either interested in the content of what they are making or of course their already established fan base.

    If one was just to aim toward mmo players then that just wouldn't do.

    MMO players are fickle, demanding, mercurial at times, highly opinionated and outspoken.

    Of course the concept of "mmo players" is very wide as it no doubt incorporates many personalities. But when one sees post after post of "an mmo has to have this/an mmo has to have that" it starts to become clear that there is a very vocal group in that "mmo playerbase" that is very comfortable labeling what is and isn't an mmo.

    So given that a company needs to market to someone, are you going to market to the mmo group which is admittedly made up a a very wide and differing playerbase but also has a group that is very dead set against anything that doesn't come under the list of what is an mmo, or will you market to the people who have purchased and loved your prodcuts and the people who might love the subject matter and who don't care if the game is called an mmo, mmorpg, mmocrpg, morpg, or any other string of letters that seem required by some.

    The people I know in real life who play any type of mmo play wow. They don't play mmo's in general. They don't care about mmo's. But they do care about wow. They like the content and they like the polish and the robust backing by Blizzard.

    I would rather market to people who I know will be more inclined to like my product than to people who might be more inclined to dissect it under a microscope.




  • WycliffeWycliffe Member Posts: 354

    Thanks for the reminder on why I avoid forums for games pre-launch. Beginning of the end for a game that won't even come out this year most likely? Do you realize how ridiculously f***ing stupid this whole thread is?!

    When SWTOR comes out I'll play it and decide for myself, until then keep the forum going with baseless speculation.

  • AkumaDaimyoAkumaDaimyo Member Posts: 185

    Nice fail post OP. The dev who moved had NOTHING to do with NGE. Do more reasearch next time and look like less of a fool.

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    The people I know in real life who play any type of mmo play wow. They don't play mmo's in general. They don't care about mmo's. But they do care about wow. They like the content and they like the polish and the robust backing by Blizzard.

    I would rather market to people who I know will be more inclined to like my product than to people who might be more inclined to dissect it under a microscope.

    For sure. From a business standpoint, I think their approach is probably right on. I don't think the end product will appeal to me, even though I am a Star Wars (movies) fan.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    Originally posted by cyphers


    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter


    Originally posted by jaxsundane



    At some point people should think about their own credibility before going all out to prove a point that you may feel strongly about because even if things go bad for this game no reasonable person is going to think this would be the reason why.

    It only takes one man with match to start a forest fire.

     

    It's very easy for an individual to ruin a complex project.

    Since we're into analogies to "prove" a point: it only takes one talented topscorer to make a team win the Champions League.

    Untrue. He won't make an average team excell. Rooney and Messi didn't win this year. But a bad keeper can destroy his team's chances.

    Bull. Look at the World championships and european championships and you'll see that the topscorers of a team can make the difference of a team getting that much farther to the finales and winning it. I'm not even gonna bother summing up names of the topscorers having made the difference for their team in former championships. If you want to argue ridiculous arguments, do so with yourself.

    Half-full, half-empty. Two different ways of saying half-assed. Sigh. I could have used 'silver lining' or 'cloud' as well, whatever floats your boat. Point being, some people like to linger and dwell in the negative, and some see the positive. And there are some that can see both. I guess we know what side your viewpoint is firmly grounded in, eh?

    If someone succeeds twice, then they have my confidence thet they will produce quality in the future.

    Has anyone ever succeeded twice in this industry? Yes, they have. Look things up yourself for a change instead of asking questions or spouting oneliners.

    Back to OP: if people will see the doom of ToR in his appointment, I just have to laugh at such ridiculousness, but if people want to believe that, go ahead. It'll be fun to see all the naysayers if ToR will be a fun, entertaining game to play at launch.

    Of course, then most of them have suddenly 'forgotten' all their doomsaying they've enjoyed all the times before.

    I'll be fair enough to say that people may remind me of my own words, if ToR, GW2 or TSW will be a failure at launch or within the first few months afterwards.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • AkumaDaimyoAkumaDaimyo Member Posts: 185

    It's just because OP is in hysterics because someone even associated with SWG is moving to TOR so he insantly thinks "OH NOES! NGE!" When if he bothered to do any research at all he would know the dev moving over had nothing to do with NGE. In fact I think that dev joined SWG after NGE was enacted.

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    Originally posted by cyphers

    Back to OP: if people will see the doom of ToR in his appointment, I just have to laugh at such ridiculousness, but if people want to believe that, go ahead. It'll be fun to see all the naysayers if ToR will be a fun, entertaining game to play at launch.

    Of course, then most of them have suddenly 'forgotten' all their doomsaying they've enjoyed all the times before.

    I'll be fair enough to say that people may remind me of my own words, if ToR, GW2 or TSW will be a failure at launch or within the first few months afterwards.

    Define "failure".

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Member Posts: 4,990

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

     

    Now, they could still show us a kick-ass PvP campaign - with RvR elements and great balance and performance, and super fun space combat. If they did that (and had no cash shop), I would buy and play it.

    Same here.  However, I don't get the feeling that PvP is something they're focusing on in this game.  Which would be a shame considering a game like this could be tons of fun PvP wise if it was done properly.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • musicmannmusicmann Member UncommonPosts: 1,095

    Originally posted by Benjola

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

     

    I just don't think they are aiming for MMO players.

    KOTOR fans? Hell, yes.

    BioWare fans? For sure.

    Star Wars fans? Kinda.

    MMO players? Meh. Throw in the the standard features and see how many stick around for a while.

     

    Now, they could still show us a kick-ass PvP campaign - with RvR elements and great balance and performance, and super fun space combat. If they did that (and had no cash shop), I would buy and play it.

    I might even dabble a little in the solo character storylines.

    Ok, I agree with this post, that's exactly how it looks like.

    Bioware should come clean though and stop pretending they are making some kind of revolutionary MMORPG they are just embarrassing themselves and are putting a very hard earned good reputation on the line here.

    Just come clean, admit MMO parts are half-assed and go with payment method GW2 is using...imo.

     

    Boy, talk about the motherload of all assumptions.  You seem to have a gift of seeing into the future. I guess you may be kin to Anakin Skywalker. Please, just stop acting like you have this inside track on what is happening at Bioware.

    There are a few you that seem to constantly moan and groan just to insight fear. I'm not one to make personal attacks but you and some others must have failed comprehension in school. From the very beginning Bioware has stayed forthcoming and said, they would not release any information about the game unless they are 110% sure that it will be in the game and the system is polished and ready to go for launch.

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    The people I know in real life who play any type of mmo play wow. They don't play mmo's in general. They don't care about mmo's. But they do care about wow. They like the content and they like the polish and the robust backing by Blizzard.

    I would rather market to people who I know will be more inclined to like my product than to people who might be more inclined to dissect it under a microscope.

    That's true.

    It doesn't mean that they will forget the general MMO gamerbase - as they've stated SW ToR will have all the regular bolts and nuts of a regular MMO too as most MMO gamers have grown accustomed to - but it certainly stands to reason that they will be casting a wider net. It certainly explains them going their own way and taking their time with revealing info bits even if it means antagonizing a very vocal part of the MMO community.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,813

    Originally posted by cyphers

    Originally posted by Sovrath



    The people I know in real life who play any type of mmo play wow. They don't play mmo's in general. They don't care about mmo's. But they do care about wow. They like the content and they like the polish and the robust backing by Blizzard.

    I would rather market to people who I know will be more inclined to like my product than to people who might be more inclined to dissect it under a microscope.

    That's true.

    It doesn't mean that they will forget the general MMO gamerbase - as they've stated SW ToR will have all the regular bolts and nuts of a regular MMO too as most MMO gamers have grown accustomed to - but it certainly stands to reason that they will be casting a wider net. It certainly explains them going their own way and taking their time with revealing info bits even if it means antagonizing a very vocal part of the MMO community.

    Well of course.

    I am fully confident that they will make a full attempt to implement game play that will appeal to mmo players.

    It remains to be seen if they will implement this content to the satisfaction of the more discerning mmo playerbase. Not because they don't have the talent or because they have never made an mmo before but because they might implement it in a way that to the more partly line mmo players, just doesn't cut it.

    An example would be Warhammer online. A game that I actually like by the way.

    When they were developing it there was all this talk about "war is everywhere" and that it was going to be a brutal "not for pansies" pvp mmo. So of course all the more hardcore pvp players and the DAoC fans are salivating because finally there was going to be a game that put pvp first.

    Except when it was finally released and one looked at the "war is everywere" results the game didn't fit into what many people expected.

    Sure, "war was everywhere" but in many ways only thematically. One could move down the world from area to area and see bits of the invasion everywhere one looked. But these were the pve bits. The npc's would fight over a partciular beach head long  before you arrived in that area and would keep doing so long after you left. But essentially it was either set dressing or some sort of pve content.

    The rvr part was not as all encompassing as many would have liked and there was a group of people who wanted to get rid of scenarios entirely.

    So even though one could say "look war is everywhere and you can pvp all the time", there was a large portion of the playerbase who just didn't get the game they thought they were getting.

    So when the swtor devs say they are going to have raids and crafting and housing, etc I'm very sure they will put those in game. But how it manifests in the game is what is going to either appease/appeal to the hard core mmo fans or drive them to the forums saying "see, I told you so".




  • jaxsundanejaxsundane Member Posts: 2,776

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by cyphers

    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    I just don't think they are aiming for MMO players.

    MMO players? Meh. Throw in the the standard features and see how many stick around for a while.

     

    Now, they could still show us a kick-ass PvP campaign - with RvR elements and great balance and performance, and super fun space combat. If they did that (and had no cash shop), I would buy and play it.

    I actually agree with you, they aren't going for mmo players. But I do think they are going for Star Wars Fans, not "kind of". For fans it's as much of a legitimate Star Wars property as any of the novels or comics.

     

    Wait a minute. Wasn't the base of WoW's success, as so many on this forum love to repeat, not the graphics but the polish with which they delivered their game? Seems to me that WoW has proven that polish and smooth gameplay is more important to the majority of MMO gamers than innovative features.

     

    Bioware has a reputation of delivering high quality games and their releases not being rush jobs, so they have large credit that those aspects that matters to most of the MMO gamers, polish and smooth gameplay, will be there at release.

    Of course, no one can tell for sure until a beta has arrived.

    I can't disagree with you because polish is exceptionally important. I also agree with you that Bioware has a very good reputation and I am a fan of their games. Though I would add that I haven never played a bioware game that didn't have some sort of minor bugs. Nothing game breaking but a few instnaces where I had to roll my eyes or take a deep breath.

    But the point is they are not aiming for mmo players but for players who are either interested in the content of what they are making or of course their already established fan base.

    If one was just to aim toward mmo players then that just wouldn't do.

    MMO players are fickle, demanding, mercurial at times, highly opinionated and outspoken.

    Of course the concept of "mmo players" is very wide as it no doubt incorporates many personalities. But when one sees post after post of "an mmo has to have this/an mmo has to have that" it starts to become clear that there is a very vocal group in that "mmo playerbase" that is very comfortable labeling what is and isn't an mmo.

    So given that a company needs to market to someone, are you going to market to the mmo group which is admittedly made up a a very wide and differing playerbase but also has a group that is very dead set against anything that doesn't come under the list of what is an mmo, or will you market to the people who have purchased and loved your prodcuts and the people who might love the subject matter and who don't care if the game is called an mmo, mmorpg, mmocrpg, morpg, or any other string of letters that seem required by some.

    The people I know in real life who play any type of mmo play wow. They don't play mmo's in general. They don't care about mmo's. But they do care about wow. They like the content and they like the polish and the robust backing by Blizzard.

    I would rather market to people who I know will be more inclined to like my product than to people who might be more inclined to dissect it under a microscope.

     Awesome post as usual Sovrath I especially like the final two paragraphs which is pretty much my own experience, most of the people I know are gamers first and quite a few of them play only WOW for those same reasons but again agreed with the last sentence and this post is a clear illustration of that.

    but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....

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