its star wars, its not a boring grind fest, feels like a single player game and you see other people and has pvp...
i dont know what else you want guys...if you still like games where you have to kill mobs for nothing for 8 months to get somewhere...well...good for you...im old for that shit
It's this simple - I don't want to play a single-player game. The only thing that appeals to me about MMORPGs is that they are played with other people. Both co-operatively (PvE) and competitively (PvP).
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Personally, I am ready for Bioware to break the mold of what is traditionally done with MMORPGs. I couldn't be more tired of the current model that is used by almost every developer. Every single one feels like the same game I have already played a million times. The developers just put a carrot on a stick and make you grind something to advance while giving little to no thought to any other aspect of the game. TOR will be a fully flushed out RPG first with classic MMO components on top. Personally I welcome that at this point. Maybe this MMO will actually hold my attention for more than a month. I have had much more fun playing Bioware's single-player RPGs in recent years than I have playing any MMO...
In most games, the developers rely on the addictive nature of small incremental advancements in order to keep people subscribed and playing their games. These games are typically sorely lacking in interesting content and must rely on keeping people 'hooked' to continue playing. After having grinded through about 8 MMOs at this point, some of us simply don't have the patience or desire to endure another boring grind. The addiction to small incrmental advancements has passed... We need something more. Bioware is delivering that.
For those of you who don't want a more fleshed out and involved storyline like only Bioware can offer, I suggest that you move on. This is obviously not going to be the game for you. Fortunately there are many many other MMOs that cling to the tired old format for you to play instead.
You really think that BioWare are the only one breaking the mold? Perhaps you need to swing on over to the GW2 forums or there main page and see what true innovation is.
Gw1 already has the best story mode of any mmorpg to date and GW will have the best story mode of any mmorpg to date ,that includes SWTOR.
Perhaps you need to take of the BIOware classes and actually look at innovation.
its star wars, its not a boring grind fest, feels like a single player game and you see other people and has pvp...
i dont know what else you want guys...if you still like games where you have to kill mobs for nothing for 8 months to get somewhere...well...good for you...im old for that shit
It's this simple - I don't want to play a single-player game. The only thing that appeals to me about MMORPGs is that they are played with other people. Both co-operatively (PvE) and competitively (PvP).
And ToR will end up with plenty of cooperative and competitive game play with other players.
It's Star Wars, Jedi vs. Sith, Light vs. Dark, Empire vs. Republic. There will be some form of PvP, hopefully they'll learn from EA/Mythic's mistakes in WAR and WoW's mistakes with Arena/Battleground and give us PvP that matters, that has a point beyond grinding points for gear.
It's also STAR WARS. I mean the entire "hero's journey" story-telling angle deeply involves the hero's (your) companions and friends/allies. No Hero is ever alone, it's the men/women fighting at their side, their comrades in arms that bring them success and glory. Hopefully Bioware will learn from the mistakes of other MMO titles- making grouping too end-game heavy and generally useless in early/mid levels.
disagree with the "no point" statement. Every MMO has a point: to let the player exist and develop their own story in their game world. That's it. Every time I log into an MMO, I'm working on the novel that is my character's life. I'm not talking about RP, I'm talking about identity.
TOR: I'm glad you have a story, but to be honest MY story is much more important.
So, here are the questions that matter to me:
How can your game help me carve out my little corner in your game world?
How can I make my character unique and stand out from the crowd?
How can you facilitategameplayy is challenging, fun, diverse and also unique to me and my character?
See, I already know the Star Wars Story. With a static IP, you will be unable to do anything 'shocking'.
However, if you help me feel like I'm developing my own uniqueidenityy, I'll be sold!
I think that the problem with mostMMO'ss isn't story. It's the unavoidable funnel that forces players to become just like everybody else to succeed.
Here is a player that gets it. It isn't about the games preconceived story line that we're asked to follow...it is about my characters story, her journey and what makes her different from the millions of others that are playing inside the game with her. If at the end I am just like everyone else...then the guys atBioWaree are right...it is pointless.
So as this poster stated.
How can your game help me carve out my little corner in your game world?
How can I make my character unique and stand out from the crowd?
How can you facilitate game play that is challenging, fun, diverse and also unique to me and my character?
UnlessSW:ToRR plays more like a sandbox game I doubt at the end my character will be unique inSW:ToRR.
Your rarely going to be unique in an MMO.
That might be over sooner then you think.
A student made a program that can write stories by a few key elements you write to the program, so if you use that in an mmo basicly no persons story have to be the same.
Sounds interesting. However i would rather feel unique with the skills/powers I posses than my story.
It's not really a solution, it's just dancing around the issue.
You don't fix the problems of multiplayer by adding more single player elements to the game =/.
It's not just Bioware's fault that it's the way it is but they're not really helping.
Perhaps not a real solution, but IMO it seems better, at least on the surface, than other solutions we've seen that essentially turn MMO's into Lobby style games.
No it's not BioWare's fault.. It is the communities fault. Games are made the way they are made, because a certain portion of the gaming community plays a certain way (grind to end, then do content/pvp etc). It's sad, but I get the feeling that mindest is currently in the majority in our community. I still blame this on the influx of the FPS crowd into the MMO genre. Either way, it is what it is...
I do think they're helping though. It may not be some huge revolutionary system in place, but at $150 mil investment, there are some risks a company just can't take.
I will say this, I am more worried about being let down by SE right now than I am about BioWare. After all, this is BioWares first MMO, so I don't know what to expect, and will most likely be lenient of more things than I would be in the next installment of Final Fantasy; after all, XIV has to live up to XI.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
its star wars, its not a boring grind fest, feels like a single player game and you see other people and has pvp...
i dont know what else you want guys...if you still like games where you have to kill mobs for nothing for 8 months to get somewhere...well...good for you...im old for that shit
It's this simple - I don't want to play a single-player game. The only thing that appeals to me about MMORPGs is that they are played with other people. Both co-operatively (PvE) and competitively (PvP).
"Single player" games have been doing that for years. One could argue that plenty of single player games allowed you to play through the PvE content cooperatively and PvP content competitively.
Personally, I am ready for Bioware to break the mold of what is traditionally done with MMORPGs. I couldn't be more tired of the current model that is used by almost every developer. Every single one feels like the same game I have already played a million times. The developers just put a carrot on a stick and make you grind something to advance while giving little to no thought to any other aspect of the game. TOR will be a fully flushed out RPG first with classic MMO components on top. Personally I welcome that at this point. Maybe this MMO will actually hold my attention for more than a month. I have had much more fun playing Bioware's single-player RPGs in recent years than I have playing any MMO...
In most games, the developers rely on the addictive nature of small incremental advancements in order to keep people subscribed and playing their games. These games are typically sorely lacking in interesting content and must rely on keeping people 'hooked' to continue playing. After having grinded through about 8 MMOs at this point, some of us simply don't have the patience or desire to endure another boring grind. The addiction to small incrmental advancements has passed... We need something more. Bioware is delivering that.
For those of you who don't want a more fleshed out and involved storyline like only Bioware can offer, I suggest that you move on. This is obviously not going to be the game for you. Fortunately there are many many other MMOs that cling to the tired old format for you to play instead.
You really think that BioWare are the only one breaking the mold? Perhaps you need to swing on over to the GW2 forums or there main page and see what true innovation is.
Personally, I am ready for Bioware to break the mold of what is traditionally done with MMORPGs. I couldn't be more tired of the current model that is used by almost every developer. Every single one feels like the same game I have already played a million times. The developers just put a carrot on a stick and make you grind something to advance while giving little to no thought to any other aspect of the game. TOR will be a fully flushed out RPG first with classic MMO components on top. Personally I welcome that at this point. Maybe this MMO will actually hold my attention for more than a month. I have had much more fun playing Bioware's single-player RPGs in recent years than I have playing any MMO...
In most games, the developers rely on the addictive nature of small incremental advancements in order to keep people subscribed and playing their games. These games are typically sorely lacking in interesting content and must rely on keeping people 'hooked' to continue playing. After having grinded through about 8 MMOs at this point, some of us simply don't have the patience or desire to endure another boring grind. The addiction to small incrmental advancements has passed... We need something more. Bioware is delivering that.
For those of you who don't want a more fleshed out and involved storyline like only Bioware can offer, I suggest that you move on. This is obviously not going to be the game for you. Fortunately there are many many other MMOs that cling to the tired old format for you to play instead.
You really think that BioWare are the only one breaking the mold? Perhaps you need to swing on over to the GW2 forums or there main page and see what true innovation is.
"Single player" games have been doing that for years. One could argue that plenty of single player games allowed you to play through the PvE content cooperatively and PvP content competitively.
You're right to put that in quotes, because those aren't single player games.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Perhaps not a real solution, but IMO it seems better, at least on the surface, than other solutions we've seen that essentially turn MMO's into Lobby style games.
I do think they're helping though. It may not be some huge revolutionary system in place, but at $150 mil investment, there are some risks a company just can't take.
I will say this, I am more worried about being let down by SE right now than I am about BioWare. After all, this is BioWares first MMO, so I don't know what to expect, and will most likely be lenient of more things than I would be in the next installment of Final Fantasy; after all, XIV has to live up to XI.
Well, at least you're not alone.. but NPC can hardly replace a living person, that's all =(.
XIV has lot to prove, indeed. They should at least do better than BIoware, if only because of their earlier experience. If they don't, that's quite a fail.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
"Single player" games have been doing that for years. One could argue that plenty of single player games allowed you to play through the PvE content cooperatively and PvP content competitively.
You're right to put that in quotes, because those aren't single player games.
I only put it in quotes because those "single player games" have multiplayer aspects. Games like Halo, and Modern Warfare, and Saints Row and RDR, and lost planet, and Borderlands. I mean single player games not only provide better single player options, many times they provide better multiplayer options too.
In some cases we could draw a fine line between what people consider an MMO and what multiplayer aspects a single player game brings to the table, if we really wanted to debate the distinction.
I am interested to see how much of a difference a good story can make. Seems awefully theme parkish to me. I usually prefer games like Fallout 3 where you can wander around and run into several different "stories" or just create your own. I have a pretty vivid imagination and often times I find myself making my own story even in games that already have a good one.
I liked KotOR, DA, and ME, but I could tell I was being led around, and while it was still fun, it wasn't very realistic or immersive. Wandering around in Oblivion and FO3, I really didn't care about my levels or upgrades, I was just having fun exploring everything and finding my own way in the world.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Anyone who believes that a compelling story (ala single player games such as KotoR) cannot be meshed with the core principles of the MMO genre is - I fear - ignorant and very short-sighted indeed. There is no realistic reason that it can't be done and - as we have seen from the game footage that has been released - Bioware are trying their hardest not to dilute their MMO down so that it is merely an online single player game but are trying to bring compelling, flowing and interesting story content that will allow for more of a connection between the players and other players, their characters and the world around them. And that is quite clearly missing from a lot of the MMOs we have on offer now. Most of the big titles out there offer loose connections that make the world around you function to the extent that you can suspend your disbelief enough to tolerate what's happening, but none of them try to engage you in the plot line to any real extent.
And the mistake that the nay sayers and over zealous critics are making is a simple mistake to make but a mistake none-the-less. Your entire point revolves around the notion that Bioware AREN'T including staple MMO content which clearly isn't the case. Bioware have demonstrated that the game HAS that staple content in there and for the elements that haven't been demonstrated as of yet, they have already stated that they will be in the game at release. Of the things that they have shown us, they have actually demonstrated how they have meshed their idea of story in an MMO with these core elements of existing titles, such as group content for example. They've stated in the past that about 15% of your total game time will involve dialogue and heavily story orientated content; the rest of the time you will be playing the game in the same way you would play any MMORPG, completing quests, running instanced encounters, levelling professions, gearing up.
As for Bioware slandering other MMOs... I haven't seen them do that at all. In this case they've pointed out a very accurate point, in so much as these games have interesting content to begin with and may also extent that to end game... but the central part of the game - the bit between beginning and hitting cap - is generally lack-lustre at best and utterly uninspiring at worst. Take World of Warcraft: Cataclysm for example (and I am well aware it hasn't released); Blizzard have stated that Cataclysm will introduce 2 new races, and for the first 10-15 levels you will play through an, "introductory," story that will introduce you to the race and the class you are playing as well as the basics of the game. What happens when you've done that?... You'll just do what everyone has done since the beginning of time - grind quests, instances and monsters until you hit cap, where some semi-interesting content may rear its head if you are lucky. They did it with the Death Knight as well (to a lesser extent). Same applies to Age of Conan - Tortage was a brilliant MMO experience... and then you were thrown out into an utterly shit world to do the normal, boring stuff that we've all done endlessly in every MMO we've played. Same applies to Warhammer Online, Aion, Anarchy Online, Lord of the Rings Online etc, etc. It's not a fallacy to point this fact out, so you can't attack them for making what is largely an accurate and well rounded observation. It remains to be seen if Bioware can actually deliver on the promises they make, and justify their position in this matter but that doesn't alter the legitimacy of the point.
There'll be at least 3 MMO's released with a larger emphasis on storytelling: The Secret World, SW: The Old Republic and Guild Wars 2.
If they fail or not be that successful, then we'll know that the majority of MMO gamers don't see the point of storylines in MMO's.
If they'll be successful also in the longer term, then we'll know that the companies behind these MMO's were right with their gamble in giving storytelling a more important place in their MMO. Their doing things differently will have paid off.
FFXI already did this, and it was as successful at it could be at the time.
FFXIV will do this too. And it will work just like before.
So SW TOR shouldn't have any problems with it either.
I didn't know that FFXIV would have it too like that. Thanks for the heads up, will make me only look forward more to FFXIV
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't know why MMO devs/execs have been trying to make trouble before releasing their MMOs. I get that controversy gets attention which in turn might help sell a few more boxes, but in the end those quotes always come back to bite the person in the ass.
What happened to the low-key approach of making a quality game without saying crap about the competition, and then releasing it and letting it speak for itself.
This statement doesn't help them, it confrims the theme park rail driven MMO that everyone assumed would be coming. So they keep the people who want that, and further push away the people who don't.
And the mistake that the nay sayers and over zealous critics are making is a simple mistake to make but a mistake none-the-less. Your entire point revolves around the notion that Bioware AREN'T including staple MMO content which clearly isn't the case. Bioware have demonstrated that the game HAS that staple content in there and for the elements that haven't been demonstrated as of yet, they have already stated that they will be in the game at release. Of the things that they have shown us, they have actually demonstrated how they have meshed their idea of story in an MMO with these core elements of existing titles, such as group content for example. They've stated in the past that about 15% of your total game time will involve dialogue and heavily story orientated content; the rest of the time you will be playing the game in the same way you would play any MMORPG, completing quests, running instanced encounters, levelling professions, gearing up.
Same applies to Age of Conan - Tortage was a brilliant MMO experience... and then you were thrown out into an utterly shit world to do the normal, boring stuff that we've all done endlessly in every MMO we've played. Same applies to Warhammer Online, Aion, Anarchy Online, Lord of the Rings Online etc, etc. It's not a fallacy to point this fact out, so you can't attack them for making what is largely an accurate and well rounded observation. It remains to be seen if Bioware can actually deliver on the promises they make, and justify their position in this matter but that doesn't alter the legitimacy of the point.
Even more: many have stated that they liked Tortage how it was done but were disappointed that after Tortage you were more or less left into the wild again, they'd have preferred the Tortage experience to have continued to the end levels. Sounds to me like there are enough people that like immersive story involvement in their MMO next to the other things that's regular for a MMO.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't know why MMO devs/execs have been trying to make trouble before releasing their MMOs. I get that controversy gets attention which in turn might help sell a few more boxes, but in the end those quotes always come back to bite the person in the ass.
What happened to the low-key approach of making a quality game without saying crap about the competition, and then releasing it and letting it speak for itself.
This statement doesn't help them, it confrims the theme park rail driven MMO that everyone assumed would be coming. So they keep the people who want that, and further push away the people who don't.
Plenty of sandbox games out there, not a single one would be able to profit it's way out of a $150 million investment. Sorry to say, but sandbox junkies are in a VAST minority in this genre. Don't let these forums confuse you, those who like the themeparks don't post here very often, they are too busy having fun playing their game.
When a sandbox game comes out that can sport over 1 mil people playing simultaneously across all shards (or on a single shard if it can handle the load) then we might see more sandboxes from larger companies. Until then, don't hold your breath.
That's why I play two games now. EVE and something else. I always have my sandbox, EVE is all the sandbox I need. Sometimes though, roller coasters are just fun as hell.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Your entire point revolves around the notion that Bioware AREN'T including staple MMO content which clearly isn't the case. Bioware have demonstrated that the game HAS that staple content in there and for the elements that haven't been demonstrated as of yet, they have already stated that they will be in the game at release. Of the things that they have shown us, they have actually demonstrated how they have meshed their idea of story in an MMO with these core elements of existing titles, such as group content for example. They've stated in the past that about 15% of your total game time will involve dialogue and heavily story orientated content; the rest of the time you will be playing the game in the same way you would play any MMORPG, completing quests, running instanced encounters, levelling professions, gearing up.
They are adding in the fourth pillar of story, by doing so they don't plan on knocking the other three out.
Why focus their press and hype on the other 3, the stuff we "expect" to be in the game - the stuff that is the same?
They are wisely focusing on the stuff we haven't seen in a MMORPG before, meaningful story.
Problem with story in MMOs is that through quests the story is the same for everyone.
They are at least trying to make the story different for everyone through the use of branching story arcs and actual choice through dialogue.
Anyone who believes that a compelling story (ala single player games such as KotoR) cannot be meshed with the core principles of the MMO genre is - I fear - ignorant and very short-sighted indeed. There is no realistic reason that it can't be done and - as we have seen from the game footage that has been released - Bioware are trying their hardest not to dilute their MMO down so that it is merely an online single player game but are trying to bring compelling, flowing and interesting story content that will allow for more of a connection between the players and other players, their characters and the world around them. And that is quite clearly missing from a lot of the MMOs we have on offer now. Most of the big titles out there offer loose connections that make the world around you function to the extent that you can suspend your disbelief enough to tolerate what's happening, but none of them try to engage you in the plot line to any real extent.
And the mistake that the nay sayers and over zealous critics are making is a simple mistake to make but a mistake none-the-less. Your entire point revolves around the notion that Bioware AREN'T including staple MMO content which clearly isn't the case.
That's not clear at all. Show it to us. Where is it? Where's the crafting, PvP content (there have shown three people playing PvP), and end game content?
Bioware have demonstrated that the game HAS that staple content in there and for the elements that haven't been demonstrated as of yet, they have already stated that they will be in the game at release.
'Stated' means nothing. Devs claim features and content that don't make it into release all the time.
Of the things that they have shown us, they have actually demonstrated how they have meshed their idea of story in an MMO with these core elements of existing titles, such as group content for example. They've stated in the past that about 15% of your total game time will involve dialogue and heavily story orientated content; the rest of the time you will be playing the game in the same way you would play any MMORPG, completing quests, running instanced encounters, levelling professions, gearing up.
As for Bioware slandering other MMOs... I haven't seen them do that at all. In this case they've pointed out a very accurate point, in so much as these games have interesting content to begin with and may also extent that to end game... but the central part of the game - the bit between beginning and hitting cap - is generally lack-lustre at best and utterly uninspiring at worst. Take World of Warcraft: Cataclysm for example (and I am well aware it hasn't released); Blizzard have stated that Cataclysm will introduce 2 new races, and for the first 10-15 levels you will play through an, "introductory," story that will introduce you to the race and the class you are playing as well as the basics of the game. What happens when you've done that?... You'll just do what everyone has done since the beginning of time - grind quests, instances and monsters until you hit cap, where some semi-interesting content may rear its head if you are lucky. They did it with the Death Knight as well (to a lesser extent). Same applies to Age of Conan - Tortage was a brilliant MMO experience... and then you were thrown out into an utterly shit world to do the normal, boring stuff that we've all done endlessly in every MMO we've played. Same applies to Warhammer Online,
WH Online, (despite its many serious flaws) was more innovative than SWTOR looks to be.
Aion, Anarchy Online, Lord of the Rings Online etc, etc. It's not a fallacy to point this fact out, so you can't attack them for making what is largely an accurate and well rounded observation. It remains to be seen if Bioware can actually deliver on the promises they make, and justify their position in this matter but that doesn't alter the legitimacy of the point.
So yeah... my 2 cents.
The only promises I have seen are tons of story, tons of voice acting, - and all the typical elements of MMORPGs.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Your entire point revolves around the notion that Bioware AREN'T including staple MMO content which clearly isn't the case. Bioware have demonstrated that the game HAS that staple content in there and for the elements that haven't been demonstrated as of yet, they have already stated that they will be in the game at release. Of the things that they have shown us, they have actually demonstrated how they have meshed their idea of story in an MMO with these core elements of existing titles, such as group content for example. They've stated in the past that about 15% of your total game time will involve dialogue and heavily story orientated content; the rest of the time you will be playing the game in the same way you would play any MMORPG, completing quests, running instanced encounters, levelling professions, gearing up.
They are adding in the fourth pillar of story, by doing so they don't plan on knocking the other three out.
Why focus their press and hype on the other 3, the stuff we "expect" to be in the game - the stuff that is the same?
They are wisely focusing on the stuff we haven't seen in a MMORPG before, meaningful story.
Problem with story in MMOs is that through quests the story is the same for everyone.
They are at least trying to make the story different for everyone through the use of branching story arcs and actual choice through dialogue.
Sorry... was that an attack on my point or were you agreeing with me... because that's basically what I was saying ;S I just didn't use the overused fourth pillar analogy for a change. It gets on my nerves.
I can understand the "no point" to most MMOs. If you consider the endless pursuit of more "power" through items. Does giving us a "purpose" through our questline make a "point" to the game? Moreover will this new "point" matter, or will we all slowly drift back to our respective safehouses(wow, eq2, eve, etc)?
I agree with Khors. Sticking it out and remaining interested.
That should be changed to, most WoW clones. This is the reason I don't play EQ/WoW clones, there IS no point. You just keep getting more gear, and then the level cap gets bumped up. It's moronic game design that the mindless masses just gobble up. To me, I need SOMETHING to do at the end, DAoC's RvR provided that for me. Something worthwhile to spend your time on, with real rewards and game changing consequences. All that gear you got while leveling up has a purpose, to better defend your realm.
What happened to the low-key approach of making a quality game without saying crap about the competition, and then releasing it and letting it speak for itself.
Sizzle costs a lot less than steak.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The only promises I have seen are tons of story, tons of voice acting, - and all the typical elements of MMORPGs.
What I'm going to do here is quote that one sentence and then PRAY you realise what you just did... before someone who's a little less forgiving realises what you just did
Well done though man. That was almost artistic ;-)
That should be changed to, most WoW clones. This is the reason I don't play EQ/WoW clones, there IS no point. You just keep getting more gear, and then the level cap gets bumped up. It's moronic game design that the mindless masses just gobble up. To me, I need SOMETHING to do at the end, DAoC's RvR provided that for me. Something worthwhile to spend your time on, with real rewards and game changing consequences. All that gear you got while leveling up has a purpose, to better defend your realm.
I want a six-month, server-wide storyline that has a final resolution (one way or another) that has a permanent effect on that particular server. A two month break, then another event starts.
If I switch servers or reroll, then I go to a slightly different world based on how those events played out there.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Comments
It's this simple - I don't want to play a single-player game. The only thing that appeals to me about MMORPGs is that they are played with other people. Both co-operatively (PvE) and competitively (PvP).
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
You really think that BioWare are the only one breaking the mold? Perhaps you need to swing on over to the GW2 forums or there main page and see what true innovation is.
Gw1 already has the best story mode of any mmorpg to date and GW will have the best story mode of any mmorpg to date ,that includes SWTOR.
Perhaps you need to take of the BIOware classes and actually look at innovation.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/Guild-Wars-2.html
And ToR will end up with plenty of cooperative and competitive game play with other players.
It's Star Wars, Jedi vs. Sith, Light vs. Dark, Empire vs. Republic. There will be some form of PvP, hopefully they'll learn from EA/Mythic's mistakes in WAR and WoW's mistakes with Arena/Battleground and give us PvP that matters, that has a point beyond grinding points for gear.
It's also STAR WARS. I mean the entire "hero's journey" story-telling angle deeply involves the hero's (your) companions and friends/allies. No Hero is ever alone, it's the men/women fighting at their side, their comrades in arms that bring them success and glory. Hopefully Bioware will learn from the mistakes of other MMO titles- making grouping too end-game heavy and generally useless in early/mid levels.
Sounds interesting. However i would rather feel unique with the skills/powers I posses than my story.
Perhaps not a real solution, but IMO it seems better, at least on the surface, than other solutions we've seen that essentially turn MMO's into Lobby style games.
No it's not BioWare's fault.. It is the communities fault. Games are made the way they are made, because a certain portion of the gaming community plays a certain way (grind to end, then do content/pvp etc). It's sad, but I get the feeling that mindest is currently in the majority in our community. I still blame this on the influx of the FPS crowd into the MMO genre. Either way, it is what it is...
I do think they're helping though. It may not be some huge revolutionary system in place, but at $150 mil investment, there are some risks a company just can't take.
I will say this, I am more worried about being let down by SE right now than I am about BioWare. After all, this is BioWares first MMO, so I don't know what to expect, and will most likely be lenient of more things than I would be in the next installment of Final Fantasy; after all, XIV has to live up to XI.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
"Single player" games have been doing that for years. One could argue that plenty of single player games allowed you to play through the PvE content cooperatively and PvP content competitively.
Good luck on that one.
Luck is not needed.
You're right to put that in quotes, because those aren't single player games.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Well, at least you're not alone.. but NPC can hardly replace a living person, that's all =(.
XIV has lot to prove, indeed. They should at least do better than BIoware, if only because of their earlier experience. If they don't, that's quite a fail.
I only put it in quotes because those "single player games" have multiplayer aspects. Games like Halo, and Modern Warfare, and Saints Row and RDR, and lost planet, and Borderlands. I mean single player games not only provide better single player options, many times they provide better multiplayer options too.
In some cases we could draw a fine line between what people consider an MMO and what multiplayer aspects a single player game brings to the table, if we really wanted to debate the distinction.
I am interested to see how much of a difference a good story can make. Seems awefully theme parkish to me. I usually prefer games like Fallout 3 where you can wander around and run into several different "stories" or just create your own. I have a pretty vivid imagination and often times I find myself making my own story even in games that already have a good one.
I liked KotOR, DA, and ME, but I could tell I was being led around, and while it was still fun, it wasn't very realistic or immersive. Wandering around in Oblivion and FO3, I really didn't care about my levels or upgrades, I was just having fun exploring everything and finding my own way in the world.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Anyone who believes that a compelling story (ala single player games such as KotoR) cannot be meshed with the core principles of the MMO genre is - I fear - ignorant and very short-sighted indeed. There is no realistic reason that it can't be done and - as we have seen from the game footage that has been released - Bioware are trying their hardest not to dilute their MMO down so that it is merely an online single player game but are trying to bring compelling, flowing and interesting story content that will allow for more of a connection between the players and other players, their characters and the world around them. And that is quite clearly missing from a lot of the MMOs we have on offer now. Most of the big titles out there offer loose connections that make the world around you function to the extent that you can suspend your disbelief enough to tolerate what's happening, but none of them try to engage you in the plot line to any real extent.
And the mistake that the nay sayers and over zealous critics are making is a simple mistake to make but a mistake none-the-less. Your entire point revolves around the notion that Bioware AREN'T including staple MMO content which clearly isn't the case. Bioware have demonstrated that the game HAS that staple content in there and for the elements that haven't been demonstrated as of yet, they have already stated that they will be in the game at release. Of the things that they have shown us, they have actually demonstrated how they have meshed their idea of story in an MMO with these core elements of existing titles, such as group content for example. They've stated in the past that about 15% of your total game time will involve dialogue and heavily story orientated content; the rest of the time you will be playing the game in the same way you would play any MMORPG, completing quests, running instanced encounters, levelling professions, gearing up.
As for Bioware slandering other MMOs... I haven't seen them do that at all. In this case they've pointed out a very accurate point, in so much as these games have interesting content to begin with and may also extent that to end game... but the central part of the game - the bit between beginning and hitting cap - is generally lack-lustre at best and utterly uninspiring at worst. Take World of Warcraft: Cataclysm for example (and I am well aware it hasn't released); Blizzard have stated that Cataclysm will introduce 2 new races, and for the first 10-15 levels you will play through an, "introductory," story that will introduce you to the race and the class you are playing as well as the basics of the game. What happens when you've done that?... You'll just do what everyone has done since the beginning of time - grind quests, instances and monsters until you hit cap, where some semi-interesting content may rear its head if you are lucky. They did it with the Death Knight as well (to a lesser extent). Same applies to Age of Conan - Tortage was a brilliant MMO experience... and then you were thrown out into an utterly shit world to do the normal, boring stuff that we've all done endlessly in every MMO we've played. Same applies to Warhammer Online, Aion, Anarchy Online, Lord of the Rings Online etc, etc. It's not a fallacy to point this fact out, so you can't attack them for making what is largely an accurate and well rounded observation. It remains to be seen if Bioware can actually deliver on the promises they make, and justify their position in this matter but that doesn't alter the legitimacy of the point.
So yeah... my 2 cents.
http://www.themmoquest.com - MMO commentary from an overly angry brit. OFFICIALLY LAUNCHED!
I didn't know that FFXIV would have it too like that. Thanks for the heads up, will make me only look forward more to FFXIV
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
We don't need no water let the ...........
I don't know why MMO devs/execs have been trying to make trouble before releasing their MMOs. I get that controversy gets attention which in turn might help sell a few more boxes, but in the end those quotes always come back to bite the person in the ass.
What happened to the low-key approach of making a quality game without saying crap about the competition, and then releasing it and letting it speak for itself.
This statement doesn't help them, it confrims the theme park rail driven MMO that everyone assumed would be coming. So they keep the people who want that, and further push away the people who don't.
This. My 2 cents too.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Plenty of sandbox games out there, not a single one would be able to profit it's way out of a $150 million investment. Sorry to say, but sandbox junkies are in a VAST minority in this genre. Don't let these forums confuse you, those who like the themeparks don't post here very often, they are too busy having fun playing their game.
When a sandbox game comes out that can sport over 1 mil people playing simultaneously across all shards (or on a single shard if it can handle the load) then we might see more sandboxes from larger companies. Until then, don't hold your breath.
That's why I play two games now. EVE and something else. I always have my sandbox, EVE is all the sandbox I need. Sometimes though, roller coasters are just fun as hell.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
They are adding in the fourth pillar of story, by doing so they don't plan on knocking the other three out.
Why focus their press and hype on the other 3, the stuff we "expect" to be in the game - the stuff that is the same?
They are wisely focusing on the stuff we haven't seen in a MMORPG before, meaningful story.
Problem with story in MMOs is that through quests the story is the same for everyone.
They are at least trying to make the story different for everyone through the use of branching story arcs and actual choice through dialogue.
The only promises I have seen are tons of story, tons of voice acting, - and all the typical elements of MMORPGs.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Sorry... was that an attack on my point or were you agreeing with me... because that's basically what I was saying ;S I just didn't use the overused fourth pillar analogy for a change. It gets on my nerves.
http://www.themmoquest.com - MMO commentary from an overly angry brit. OFFICIALLY LAUNCHED!
That should be changed to, most WoW clones. This is the reason I don't play EQ/WoW clones, there IS no point. You just keep getting more gear, and then the level cap gets bumped up. It's moronic game design that the mindless masses just gobble up. To me, I need SOMETHING to do at the end, DAoC's RvR provided that for me. Something worthwhile to spend your time on, with real rewards and game changing consequences. All that gear you got while leveling up has a purpose, to better defend your realm.
Sizzle costs a lot less than steak.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
What I'm going to do here is quote that one sentence and then PRAY you realise what you just did... before someone who's a little less forgiving realises what you just did
Well done though man. That was almost artistic ;-)
http://www.themmoquest.com - MMO commentary from an overly angry brit. OFFICIALLY LAUNCHED!
I want a six-month, server-wide storyline that has a final resolution (one way or another) that has a permanent effect on that particular server. A two month break, then another event starts.
If I switch servers or reroll, then I go to a slightly different world based on how those events played out there.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
So basicly the only new thing about TOR is its story and the rest is same old same old?
in other words it dusnt really bring anything new to the table?