disagree with the "no point" statement. Every MMO has a point: to let the player exist and develop their own story in their game world. That's it. Every time I log into an MMO, I'm working on the novel that is my character's life. I'm not talking about RP, I'm talking about identity.
TOR: I'm glad you have a story, but to be honest MY story is much more important.
So, here are the questions that matter to me:
How can your game help me carve out my little corner in your game world?
How can I make my character unique and stand out from the crowd?
How can you facilitategameplayy is challenging, fun, diverse and also unique to me and my character?
See, I already know the Star Wars Story. With a static IP, you will be unable to do anything 'shocking'.
However, if you help me feel like I'm developing my own uniqueidenityy, I'll be sold!
I think that the problem with mostMMO'ss isn't story. It's the unavoidable funnel that forces players to become just like everybody else to succeed.
Here is a player that gets it. It isn't about the games preconceived story line that we're asked to follow...it is about my characters story, her journey and what makes her different from the millions of others that are playing inside the game with her. If at the end I am just like everyone else...then the guys atBioWaree are right...it is pointless.
So as this poster stated.
How can your game help me carve out my little corner in your game world?
How can I make my character unique and stand out from the crowd?
How can you facilitate game play that is challenging, fun, diverse and also unique to me and my character?
UnlessSW:ToRR plays more like a sandbox game I doubt at the end my character will be unique inSW:ToRR.
I disagree with the "no point" statement. Every MMO has a point: to let the player exist and develop their own story in their game world. That's it. Every time I log into an MMO, I'm working on the novel that is my character's life. I'm not talking about RP, I'm talking about identity.
TOR: I'm glad you have a story, but to be honest MY story is much more important.
So, here are the questions that matter to me:
How can your game help me carve out my little corner in your game world?
How can I make my character unique and stand out from the crowd?
How can you facilitate gameplay is challenging, fun, diverse and also unique to me and my character?
See, I already know the Star Wars Story. With a static IP, you will be unable to do anything 'shocking'.
However, if you help me feel like I'm developing my own unique idenity, I'll be sold!
I think that the problem with most MMO's isn't story. It's the unavoidable funnel that forces players to become just like everybody else to succeed.
Bingo. Extremely well put.
I personally think BioWare is approaching this too much from a single player RPG perspective - at least where their emphasis on story-telling is concerned - where how the player begins and where the player is at the "end" of the story is already pre-determined by the story writers, one way or another. Sure the player can make different choices along the way - but no matter what choice you make, where you end up is already pre-determined. Some might call that being "on rails".
Players these days are asking for MMOs to become less restrictive, to become more about encouraging and facilitating individuality and diversity. More 'open world', less 'directed gameplay'. Having a game that seems so profoundly focused on "telling a story" and guiding the player through it - however many branches it has - doesn't seem like a step in that direction to me. It's like a "Choose Your Own Adventure" book. You can make any number of choices, but every decision has already been accounted for.
But, again... we'll see how it plays out and how many people really care about the "point" in playing ToR.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I have been catching up rereading some other posts of this guy and he nails it right down on top. Story is a backdrop. It represents fluff.
Like what he said in a second post in this thread: a compliment coming from an NPC is embarassing really. The only compliment that counts is the whisper of a player. So long the "epicness of NPC story telling" in MMo's.
I remember that facing Illidan or lich king meant more for some peoples than facing a random boss. It was in some way epic killing Lich for the first time so no, story is not only fluff in a mmo and the success of wow shows it. You can't deny that a big bonus for this game's success is it's lore.
Don't confuse "story" with "lore". These are two completely separate things.
Lore is the background which is timeless and ultimately static. Stories are always time-bound. Every story has a beginning, a middle and an end.
What I've been arguing during this whole thread is that "stories" are bad for mmos, precisely because of their time-based structure which is at odds with mmo persistence which is the defining quality of the medium. Lore on the other hand is perfectly in concord with mmo paradigm.
Imo a "perfect" mmo would have massive amounts of very rich and deep lore and no "stories" at all. (At least no dev-designed stories involving players themselves).
Well wow had a lore ready before it started then the game continues it through it's story. Each expansion it's a big episode of story enreaching it's lore. There is a beginning, a middle and an end to wow's story but it doesn't seam to hurt that game does it?
Personally, I am ready for Bioware to break the mold of what is traditionally done with MMORPGs. I couldn't be more tired of the current model that is used by almost every developer. Every single one feels like the same game I have already played a million times. The developers just put a carrot on a stick and make you grind something to advance while giving little to no thought to any other aspect of the game. TOR will be a fully flushed out RPG first with classic MMO components on top. Personally I welcome that at this point. Maybe this MMO will actually hold my attention for more than a month. I have had much more fun playing Bioware's single-player RPGs in recent years than I have playing any MMO...
In most games, the developers rely on the addictive nature of small incremental advancements in order to keep people subscribed and playing their games. These games are typically sorely lacking in interesting content and must rely on keeping people 'hooked' to continue playing. After having grinded through about 8 MMOs at this point, some of us simply don't have the patience or desire to endure another boring grind. The addiction to small incrmental advancements has passed... We need something more. Bioware is delivering that.
For those of you who don't want a more fleshed out and involved storyline like only Bioware can offer, I suggest that you move on. This is obviously not going to be the game for you. Fortunately there are many many other MMOs that cling to the tired old format for you to play instead.
I disagree with the "no point" statement. Every MMO has a point: to let the player exist and develop their own story in their game world. That's it. Every time I log into an MMO, I'm working on the novel that is my character's life. I'm not talking about RP, I'm talking about identity.
TOR: I'm glad you have a story, but to be honest MY story is much more important.
So, here are the questions that matter to me:
How can your game help me carve out my little corner in your game world?
How can I make my character unique and stand out from the crowd?
How can you facilitate gameplay is challenging, fun, diverse and also unique to me and my character?
See, I already know the Star Wars Story. With a static IP, you will be unable to do anything 'shocking'.
However, if you help me feel like I'm developing my own unique idenity, I'll be sold!
I think that the problem with most MMO's isn't story. It's the unavoidable funnel that forces players to become just like everybody else to succeed.
Bingo. Extremely well put.
I personally think BioWare is approaching this too much from a single player RPG perspective - at least where their emphasis on story-telling is concerned - where how the player begins and where the player is at the "end" of the story is already pre-determined by the story writers, one way or another. Sure the player can make different choices along the way - but no matter what choice you make, where you end up is already pre-determined. Some might call that being "on rails".
Players these days are asking for MMOs to become less restrictive, to become more about encouraging and facilitating individuality and diversity. More 'open world', less 'direction'. Having a game that seems so profoundly focused on "telling a story" - however many branches it has - doesn't seem like a step in that direction to me.
But, again... we'll see how it plays out and how many people really care about the "point" in playing ToR.
Think alot of you are getting the personal story and the open world events in TOR mixed up. Bioware has stated many times that while each class will have it's own story to play out with the differant choices and such, you are not forced to do them in any way. Let's remember what Bioware has said when talking about catering to as many playstyles as possible. If you are a big RPGer and want to immerse yourself in your own persoanl story you will be able to do so. Since the game is like 90% open world, if you choose to make your own story and do nothing more than the open world quests you can do so as well. Now by doing this you may not expierence all the content that TOR will have to offer, but you will be able to quest, level up and once there do end game/pvp what ever that may be. Really just because Bioware has a indepth story system in place, it doesn't change the fact you will be able to group or not, to do quests and when it comes to maybe missing out on some content for not engaging in the story, is that any differant than not becoming a raider in WOW and never seeing the hard mode end raid content.
In most games, the developers rely on the addictive nature of small incremental advancements in order to keep people subscribed and playing their games.
In most games, the developers rely on the addictive nature of small incremental advancements in order to keep people subscribed and playing their games.
And TOR wont be any different.
Actually TOR will be quite different for the same reason that so many people are up in arms on these forums...
By approaching it more from a single-player RPG perspective with an evolving storyline that changes based on player choices, they are making the game more like one of their excelent classic RPGs. If the game ends up being as I think it will, I will want to continue playing because I want to see how the story unfolds... not because I want that phat lewt that drops off of generic boss #244.
Personal story arcs - instanced, use your companions, focus on story, solo capable yet also able to bring friends to help/share your story experience, possibly giving better loot. Personal story arcs tailor themselves in difficulty to your group size and level. This is where you get the dialogue options in conversation effecting your character and companions etc.
Updates every few months to expand/continue story if possible.
NON-repeatable unless you are helping a friend through their story.
Side story arcs - optional non class specific story arcs. Instanced, both solo with option to bring friends and some group required side arcs.
Non-repeatable unless with friends/group members who haven't completed them before.
Open world quests - standard MMO open world WoW/WAR/AoC/Aion etc. questing. Non instanced, mostly solo with some group quests, no companions.
Public quests - WAR/CO/etc. repeatable for loot, NO influence grind please. Fun distraction. Good for "grinding" up XP for levels if you don't like questing/story.
Dungeons - repeatable, not much story, instanced dungeons ala WoW. Mostly at end-game levels. Party required.
Raids - end game, repeatable, focus on "epic" and "heroic" battles of consequence not 20+ ppl beating up on a single "boss" mob.
I'd also like the see the bonus XP from quests and story arc mission completion and such significantly lower then in most MMOs, with significantly more XP gained from killing mobs so that grinding can be a viable level up alternative.
I'd also like to see increased XP gain in groups. Nothing drastic, but couple it with increased efficiency from having multiple players and grouping should be highly encouraged, especially for mob/PQ grinding.
I don't care how good the story is. I will get bored of it before I complete it, or someone who rushed through it would spoil it anyways. No matter how they word a quest/mission/task it will always be the same. "Go there, do something, come back, because I am too lazy to do it myself."
I find it hard to get into a "story" if the high level guard wants me to go pick him a flower that is 20 yards away from himself. it makes no sense, its stupid, but it gives experience and coin so I will do it anyways.
People follow the question marks above NPC's heads. That is the path of progression. If you enter a town and see grey question marks, you leave and come back at a higher level. There is no sense of exploration or adventure.
I disagree with the "no point" statement. Every MMO has a point: to let the player exist and develop their own story in their game world. That's it. Every time I log into an MMO, I'm working on the novel that is my character's life. I'm not talking about RP, I'm talking about identity.
TOR: I'm glad you have a story, but to be honest MY story is much more important.
So, here are the questions that matter to me:
How can your game help me carve out my little corner in your game world?
How can I make my character unique and stand out from the crowd?
How can you facilitate gameplay is challenging, fun, diverse and also unique to me and my character?
See, I already know the Star Wars Story. With a static IP, you will be unable to do anything 'shocking'.
However, if you help me feel like I'm developing my own unique idenity, I'll be sold!
I think that the problem with most MMO's isn't story. It's the unavoidable funnel that forces players to become just like everybody else to succeed.
Bingo. Extremely well put.
I personally think BioWare is approaching this too much from a single player RPG perspective - at least where their emphasis on story-telling is concerned - where how the player begins and where the player is at the "end" of the story is already pre-determined by the story writers, one way or another. Sure the player can make different choices along the way - but no matter what choice you make, where you end up is already pre-determined. Some might call that being "on rails".
Players these days are asking for MMOs to become less restrictive, to become more about encouraging and facilitating individuality and diversity. More 'open world', less 'direction'. Having a game that seems so profoundly focused on "telling a story" - however many branches it has - doesn't seem like a step in that direction to me.
But, again... we'll see how it plays out and how many people really care about the "point" in playing ToR.
Think alot of you are getting the personal story and the open world events in TOR mixed up. Bioware has stated many times that while each class will have it's own story to play out with the differant choices and such, you are not forced to do them in any way. Let's remember what Bioware has said when talking about catering to as many playstyles as possible. If you are a big RPGer and want to immerse yourself in your own persoanl story you will be able to do so. Since the game is like 90% open world, if you choose to make your own story and do nothing more than the open world quests you can do so as well. Now by doing this you may not expierence all the content that TOR will have to offer, but you will be able to quest, level up and once there do end game/pvp what ever that may be. Really just because Bioware has a indepth story system in place, it doesn't change the fact you will be able to group or not, to do quests and when it comes to maybe missing out on some content for not engaging in the story, is that any differant than not becoming a raider in WOW and never seeing the hard mode end raid content.
So basically, ToR will have more of a "point" than in other MMOs (according to them)... but only if the player chooses to engage in that content and follow those storylines. If they don't, then it's just as "pointless" as the MMOs they refer to in their statement...
Interesting.
Call it a hunch, but I have a feeling the better rewards are going to be yielded through the very story-specific content. I could be completely wrong on this, but I can't see them putting all this time and effort and funding into creating all these deep, voice-acted storylines just to give people the option to completely avoid them in the end.
Don't get me wrong... I'm a huge fan of BioWare. I've played through Baldur's Gate. I played Neverwinter Nights and all its expansions religiously, not to mention the online PWs. I have Dragon Age installed on my system right now and have played that, etc. etc.. So it's not that I think BioWare lacks the talent. I just think they're overestimating the importance of story to MMO players as a whole.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
In most games, the developers rely on the addictive nature of small incremental advancements in order to keep people subscribed and playing their games.
And TOR wont be any different.
Actually TOR will be quite different for the same reason that so many people are up in arms on these forums...
By approaching it more from a single-player RPG perspective with an evolving storyline that changes based on player choices, they are making the game more like one of their excelent classic RPGs. If the game ends up being as I think it will, I will want to continue playing because I want to see how the story unfolds... not because I want that phat lewt that drops off of generic boss #244.
im not saying that they use the same tactics but as an sub based game im sure they will implant something that try to keep people "addicted" to keep them as sub. Story alone will not last long to keep people a long time subscriber though im afraid. So somewhere down the line they need some sort of "grind" to keep people playing.
Am I the only one who found KOTOR and Dragon Age stories to be bland. Always some great evil going on that "you" must stop. Occasionally there is an interesting/funny side quest that you will remember forever and have inside jokes with your friends about. I personally don't have high hopes for SW:ToR story. And if that is their main selling point, I guess I will have to pass, or wait for a trial at least = D
its star wars, its not a boring grind fest, feels like a single player game and you see other people and has pvp...
i dont know what else you want guys...if you still like games where you have to kill mobs for nothing for 8 months to get somewhere...well...good for you...im old for that shit
I like how people argue that since it is BioWare's first MMO there will be huge issues and that Blizzard's success with WoW was an exception to the rule..
Yet they forget that NOBODY made MMO's until they made their first. And some of those were big successes (no, not 11.5 million, but succesfull enough to be held upon some imaginary pedestal to be looked at in awe)...
But hey.. If you like reading pages upon pages of text over voice acting, or sitting in a city for hours looking for a tank or healer as opposed to using a companion and actually spending that time enjoying content; well, I guess that's your cup of tea...
I don't know about you, but I read to learn.. and since I code all day, I also read to work..
Last thing I want to do when I get home and sit infront of a computer is read to be entertained, when I have a $700 graphics system and $2000+ sound system attached to my computer..
It's 2010, games should play like it's 2010...
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
sitting in a city for hours looking for a tank or healer as opposed to using a companion and actually spending that time enjoying content; well, I guess that's your cup of tea...
So instead of trying to fix the problem, you think it's better to ignore it and take the lazy approach? Not really.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I guess what this thread shows most is that there's a clear split: people who like the added immersion that stories can bring to their MMO gaming experience, and people who don't care a bit about any storylines in their MMO and would rather prefer to do without it.
There'll be at least 3 MMO's released with a larger emphasis on storytelling: The Secret World, SW: The Old Republic and Guild Wars 2.
If they fail or not be that successful, then we'll know that the majority of MMO gamers don't see the point of storylines in MMO's.
If they'll be successful also in the longer term, then we'll know that the companies behind these MMO's were right with their gamble in giving storytelling a more important place in their MMO. Their doing things differently will have paid off.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
There'll be at least 3 MMO's released with a larger emphasis on storytelling: The Secret World, SW: The Old Republic and Guild Wars 2.
If they fail or not be that successful, then we'll know that the majority of MMO gamers don't see the point of storylines in MMO's.
If they'll be successful also in the longer term, then we'll know that the companies behind these MMO's were right with their gamble in giving storytelling a more important place in their MMO. Their doing things differently will have paid off.
FFXI already did this, and it was as successful at it could be at the time.
FFXIV will do this too. And it will work just like before.
So SW TOR shouldn't have any problems with it either. Only issue(?) here is the single player experience and what to do after that story has ended.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
sitting in a city for hours looking for a tank or healer as opposed to using a companion and actually spending that time enjoying content; well, I guess that's your cup of tea...
So instead of trying to fix the problem, you think it's better to ignore it and take the lazy approach? Not really.
Well, how would you solve the problem?? You're getting ready for a quest/instance/whatever. You got everything you need, except a healer, and the people in your group are getting antsy to go. Let's hear your solution, that doesn't involve a player switching classes. What feature would you put into an MMO to solve this dilema?
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
disagree with the "no point" statement. Every MMO has a point: to let the player exist and develop their own story in their game world. That's it. Every time I log into an MMO, I'm working on the novel that is my character's life. I'm not talking about RP, I'm talking about identity.
TOR: I'm glad you have a story, but to be honest MY story is much more important.
So, here are the questions that matter to me:
How can your game help me carve out my little corner in your game world?
How can I make my character unique and stand out from the crowd?
How can you facilitategameplayy is challenging, fun, diverse and also unique to me and my character?
See, I already know the Star Wars Story. With a static IP, you will be unable to do anything 'shocking'.
However, if you help me feel like I'm developing my own uniqueidenityy, I'll be sold!
I think that the problem with mostMMO'ss isn't story. It's the unavoidable funnel that forces players to become just like everybody else to succeed.
Here is a player that gets it. It isn't about the games preconceived story line that we're asked to follow...it is about my characters story, her journey and what makes her different from the millions of others that are playing inside the game with her. If at the end I am just like everyone else...then the guys atBioWaree are right...it is pointless.
So as this poster stated.
How can your game help me carve out my little corner in your game world?
How can I make my character unique and stand out from the crowd?
How can you facilitate game play that is challenging, fun, diverse and also unique to me and my character?
UnlessSW:ToRR plays more like a sandbox game I doubt at the end my character will be unique inSW:ToRR.
Well, how would you solve the problem?? You're getting ready for a quest/instance/whatever. You got everything you need, except a healer, and the people in your group are getting antsy to go. Let's hear your solution, that doesn't involve a player switching classes. What feature would you put into an MMO to solve this dilema?
If there is not only one class that acts as a "healer", then you don't have to wait for such class to log in.
If there are many classes that can heal when needed, or even all classes that have some form of self heal and self tank capabilities that lessen the need for both, then the problem ceases to exist.
This, of course is only one possible solution, and if you think that it can not be solved then you are not thinking creatively enough. And neither is Bioware.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I don't believe most of the people with negative attitudes towards TOR are doubting that Bioware will release a quality game. Most of the concerns are about the direction of that quality and the potential effects this might have to the end result. I am sure most if not all in this thread want a solid SW MMO more than anything.
I think more here want KOTOR 3 than anything else.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
disagree with the "no point" statement. Every MMO has a point: to let the player exist and develop their own story in their game world. That's it. Every time I log into an MMO, I'm working on the novel that is my character's life. I'm not talking about RP, I'm talking about identity.
TOR: I'm glad you have a story, but to be honest MY story is much more important.
So, here are the questions that matter to me:
How can your game help me carve out my little corner in your game world?
How can I make my character unique and stand out from the crowd?
How can you facilitategameplayy is challenging, fun, diverse and also unique to me and my character?
See, I already know the Star Wars Story. With a static IP, you will be unable to do anything 'shocking'.
However, if you help me feel like I'm developing my own uniqueidenityy, I'll be sold!
I think that the problem with mostMMO'ss isn't story. It's the unavoidable funnel that forces players to become just like everybody else to succeed.
Here is a player that gets it. It isn't about the games preconceived story line that we're asked to follow...it is about my characters story, her journey and what makes her different from the millions of others that are playing inside the game with her. If at the end I am just like everyone else...then the guys atBioWaree are right...it is pointless.
So as this poster stated.
How can your game help me carve out my little corner in your game world?
How can I make my character unique and stand out from the crowd?
How can you facilitate game play that is challenging, fun, diverse and also unique to me and my character?
UnlessSW:ToRR plays more like a sandbox game I doubt at the end my character will be unique inSW:ToRR.
Your rarely going to be unique in an MMO.
That might be over sooner then you think.
A student made a program that can write stories by a few key elements you write to the program, so if you use that in an mmo basicly no persons story have to be the same.
Well, how would you solve the problem?? You're getting ready for a quest/instance/whatever. You got everything you need, except a healer, and the people in your group are getting antsy to go. Let's hear your solution, that doesn't involve a player switching classes. What feature would you put into an MMO to solve this dilema?
If there is not only one class that acts as a "healer", then you don't have to wait for such class to log in.
If there are many classes that can heal when needed, or even all classes that have some form of self heal and self tank capabilities that lessen the need for both, then the problem ceases to exist.
This, of course is only one possible solution, and if you think that it can not be solved then you are not thinking creatively enough. And neither is Bioware.
I'm not saying it can't be solved, I'm saying I see no issue with the companion as a solution. It looks to me that some classes form of self heal/tank will come from their companion. So in a sense, they have implemented your solution, just via means of a companion character instead of a skill for your main character that doens't fit within his chosen role, or un-necesarilly increasing the survivability of a class that can't take hits.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Don't get me wrong... I'm a huge fan of BioWare. I've played through Baldur's Gate. I played Neverwinter Nights and all its expansions religiously, not to mention the online PWs. I have Dragon Age installed on my system right now and have played that, etc. etc.. So it's not that I think BioWare lacks the talent. I just think they're overestimating the importance of story to MMO players as a whole.
Personal story (which BioWare is stuffing this game with) divides the player population due to different playing rates and geography. This will be compounded severely by the individual class storylines. If you and I want to play together (but play different characters), but are casual players and can't live in the game, then we will have to choose whose story to play - yours or mine.
World story - events that take place every so often and have a sweeping effect on the game world can bring players together with mutual goals. We saw this with the world events like the AQ gate opening in WoW. That is where story belongs in an MMO. Just like end game rewards should be based on world/faction benefits, not personal ones.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I'm not saying it can't be solved, I'm saying I see no issue with the companion as a solution. It looks to me that some classes form of self heal/tank will come from their companion. So in a sense, they have implemented your solution, just via means of a companion character instead of a skill for your main character that doens't fit within his chosen role, or un-necesarilly increasing the survivability of a class that can't take hits.
It's not really a solution, it's just dancing around the issue.
You don't fix the problems of multiplayer by adding more single player elements to the game =/.
It's not just Bioware's fault that it's the way it is but they're not really helping.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Comments
Here is a player that gets it. It isn't about the games preconceived story line that we're asked to follow...it is about my characters story, her journey and what makes her different from the millions of others that are playing inside the game with her. If at the end I am just like everyone else...then the guys atBioWaree are right...it is pointless.
So as this poster stated.
How can your game help me carve out my little corner in your game world?
How can I make my character unique and stand out from the crowd?
How can you facilitate game play that is challenging, fun, diverse and also unique to me and my character?
UnlessSW:ToRR plays more like a sandbox game I doubt at the end my character will be unique inSW:ToRR.
Bingo. Extremely well put.
I personally think BioWare is approaching this too much from a single player RPG perspective - at least where their emphasis on story-telling is concerned - where how the player begins and where the player is at the "end" of the story is already pre-determined by the story writers, one way or another. Sure the player can make different choices along the way - but no matter what choice you make, where you end up is already pre-determined. Some might call that being "on rails".
Players these days are asking for MMOs to become less restrictive, to become more about encouraging and facilitating individuality and diversity. More 'open world', less 'directed gameplay'. Having a game that seems so profoundly focused on "telling a story" and guiding the player through it - however many branches it has - doesn't seem like a step in that direction to me. It's like a "Choose Your Own Adventure" book. You can make any number of choices, but every decision has already been accounted for.
But, again... we'll see how it plays out and how many people really care about the "point" in playing ToR.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Well wow had a lore ready before it started then the game continues it through it's story. Each expansion it's a big episode of story enreaching it's lore. There is a beginning, a middle and an end to wow's story but it doesn't seam to hurt that game does it?
Personally, I am ready for Bioware to break the mold of what is traditionally done with MMORPGs. I couldn't be more tired of the current model that is used by almost every developer. Every single one feels like the same game I have already played a million times. The developers just put a carrot on a stick and make you grind something to advance while giving little to no thought to any other aspect of the game. TOR will be a fully flushed out RPG first with classic MMO components on top. Personally I welcome that at this point. Maybe this MMO will actually hold my attention for more than a month. I have had much more fun playing Bioware's single-player RPGs in recent years than I have playing any MMO...
In most games, the developers rely on the addictive nature of small incremental advancements in order to keep people subscribed and playing their games. These games are typically sorely lacking in interesting content and must rely on keeping people 'hooked' to continue playing. After having grinded through about 8 MMOs at this point, some of us simply don't have the patience or desire to endure another boring grind. The addiction to small incrmental advancements has passed... We need something more. Bioware is delivering that.
For those of you who don't want a more fleshed out and involved storyline like only Bioware can offer, I suggest that you move on. This is obviously not going to be the game for you. Fortunately there are many many other MMOs that cling to the tired old format for you to play instead.
Think alot of you are getting the personal story and the open world events in TOR mixed up. Bioware has stated many times that while each class will have it's own story to play out with the differant choices and such, you are not forced to do them in any way. Let's remember what Bioware has said when talking about catering to as many playstyles as possible. If you are a big RPGer and want to immerse yourself in your own persoanl story you will be able to do so. Since the game is like 90% open world, if you choose to make your own story and do nothing more than the open world quests you can do so as well. Now by doing this you may not expierence all the content that TOR will have to offer, but you will be able to quest, level up and once there do end game/pvp what ever that may be. Really just because Bioware has a indepth story system in place, it doesn't change the fact you will be able to group or not, to do quests and when it comes to maybe missing out on some content for not engaging in the story, is that any differant than not becoming a raider in WOW and never seeing the hard mode end raid content.
And TOR wont be any different.
Actually TOR will be quite different for the same reason that so many people are up in arms on these forums...
By approaching it more from a single-player RPG perspective with an evolving storyline that changes based on player choices, they are making the game more like one of their excelent classic RPGs. If the game ends up being as I think it will, I will want to continue playing because I want to see how the story unfolds... not because I want that phat lewt that drops off of generic boss #244.
I'd like to see:
Content forms (PvE)
Personal story arcs - instanced, use your companions, focus on story, solo capable yet also able to bring friends to help/share your story experience, possibly giving better loot. Personal story arcs tailor themselves in difficulty to your group size and level. This is where you get the dialogue options in conversation effecting your character and companions etc.
Updates every few months to expand/continue story if possible.
NON-repeatable unless you are helping a friend through their story.
Side story arcs - optional non class specific story arcs. Instanced, both solo with option to bring friends and some group required side arcs.
Non-repeatable unless with friends/group members who haven't completed them before.
Open world quests - standard MMO open world WoW/WAR/AoC/Aion etc. questing. Non instanced, mostly solo with some group quests, no companions.
Public quests - WAR/CO/etc. repeatable for loot, NO influence grind please. Fun distraction. Good for "grinding" up XP for levels if you don't like questing/story.
Dungeons - repeatable, not much story, instanced dungeons ala WoW. Mostly at end-game levels. Party required.
Raids - end game, repeatable, focus on "epic" and "heroic" battles of consequence not 20+ ppl beating up on a single "boss" mob.
I'd also like the see the bonus XP from quests and story arc mission completion and such significantly lower then in most MMOs, with significantly more XP gained from killing mobs so that grinding can be a viable level up alternative.
I'd also like to see increased XP gain in groups. Nothing drastic, but couple it with increased efficiency from having multiple players and grouping should be highly encouraged, especially for mob/PQ grinding.
I don't care how good the story is. I will get bored of it before I complete it, or someone who rushed through it would spoil it anyways. No matter how they word a quest/mission/task it will always be the same. "Go there, do something, come back, because I am too lazy to do it myself."
I find it hard to get into a "story" if the high level guard wants me to go pick him a flower that is 20 yards away from himself. it makes no sense, its stupid, but it gives experience and coin so I will do it anyways.
People follow the question marks above NPC's heads. That is the path of progression. If you enter a town and see grey question marks, you leave and come back at a higher level. There is no sense of exploration or adventure.
So basically, ToR will have more of a "point" than in other MMOs (according to them)... but only if the player chooses to engage in that content and follow those storylines. If they don't, then it's just as "pointless" as the MMOs they refer to in their statement...
Interesting.
Call it a hunch, but I have a feeling the better rewards are going to be yielded through the very story-specific content. I could be completely wrong on this, but I can't see them putting all this time and effort and funding into creating all these deep, voice-acted storylines just to give people the option to completely avoid them in the end.
Don't get me wrong... I'm a huge fan of BioWare. I've played through Baldur's Gate. I played Neverwinter Nights and all its expansions religiously, not to mention the online PWs. I have Dragon Age installed on my system right now and have played that, etc. etc.. So it's not that I think BioWare lacks the talent. I just think they're overestimating the importance of story to MMO players as a whole.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
im not saying that they use the same tactics but as an sub based game im sure they will implant something that try to keep people "addicted" to keep them as sub. Story alone will not last long to keep people a long time subscriber though im afraid. So somewhere down the line they need some sort of "grind" to keep people playing.
Am I the only one who found KOTOR and Dragon Age stories to be bland. Always some great evil going on that "you" must stop. Occasionally there is an interesting/funny side quest that you will remember forever and have inside jokes with your friends about. I personally don't have high hopes for SW:ToR story. And if that is their main selling point, I guess I will have to pass, or wait for a trial at least = D
its star wars, its not a boring grind fest, feels like a single player game and you see other people and has pvp...
i dont know what else you want guys...if you still like games where you have to kill mobs for nothing for 8 months to get somewhere...well...good for you...im old for that shit
I like how people argue that since it is BioWare's first MMO there will be huge issues and that Blizzard's success with WoW was an exception to the rule..
Yet they forget that NOBODY made MMO's until they made their first. And some of those were big successes (no, not 11.5 million, but succesfull enough to be held upon some imaginary pedestal to be looked at in awe)...
But hey.. If you like reading pages upon pages of text over voice acting, or sitting in a city for hours looking for a tank or healer as opposed to using a companion and actually spending that time enjoying content; well, I guess that's your cup of tea...
I don't know about you, but I read to learn.. and since I code all day, I also read to work..
Last thing I want to do when I get home and sit infront of a computer is read to be entertained, when I have a $700 graphics system and $2000+ sound system attached to my computer..
It's 2010, games should play like it's 2010...
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
So instead of trying to fix the problem, you think it's better to ignore it and take the lazy approach? Not really.
I guess what this thread shows most is that there's a clear split: people who like the added immersion that stories can bring to their MMO gaming experience, and people who don't care a bit about any storylines in their MMO and would rather prefer to do without it.
There'll be at least 3 MMO's released with a larger emphasis on storytelling: The Secret World, SW: The Old Republic and Guild Wars 2.
If they fail or not be that successful, then we'll know that the majority of MMO gamers don't see the point of storylines in MMO's.
If they'll be successful also in the longer term, then we'll know that the companies behind these MMO's were right with their gamble in giving storytelling a more important place in their MMO. Their doing things differently will have paid off.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
FFXI already did this, and it was as successful at it could be at the time.
FFXIV will do this too. And it will work just like before.
So SW TOR shouldn't have any problems with it either. Only issue(?) here is the single player experience and what to do after that story has ended.
Well, how would you solve the problem?? You're getting ready for a quest/instance/whatever. You got everything you need, except a healer, and the people in your group are getting antsy to go. Let's hear your solution, that doesn't involve a player switching classes. What feature would you put into an MMO to solve this dilema?
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Your rarely going to be unique in an MMO.
If there is not only one class that acts as a "healer", then you don't have to wait for such class to log in.
If there are many classes that can heal when needed, or even all classes that have some form of self heal and self tank capabilities that lessen the need for both, then the problem ceases to exist.
This, of course is only one possible solution, and if you think that it can not be solved then you are not thinking creatively enough. And neither is Bioware.
I think more here want KOTOR 3 than anything else.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
That might be over sooner then you think.
A student made a program that can write stories by a few key elements you write to the program, so if you use that in an mmo basicly no persons story have to be the same.
I'm not saying it can't be solved, I'm saying I see no issue with the companion as a solution. It looks to me that some classes form of self heal/tank will come from their companion. So in a sense, they have implemented your solution, just via means of a companion character instead of a skill for your main character that doens't fit within his chosen role, or un-necesarilly increasing the survivability of a class that can't take hits.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Personal story (which BioWare is stuffing this game with) divides the player population due to different playing rates and geography. This will be compounded severely by the individual class storylines. If you and I want to play together (but play different characters), but are casual players and can't live in the game, then we will have to choose whose story to play - yours or mine.
World story - events that take place every so often and have a sweeping effect on the game world can bring players together with mutual goals. We saw this with the world events like the AQ gate opening in WoW. That is where story belongs in an MMO. Just like end game rewards should be based on world/faction benefits, not personal ones.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
It's not really a solution, it's just dancing around the issue.
You don't fix the problems of multiplayer by adding more single player elements to the game =/.
It's not just Bioware's fault that it's the way it is but they're not really helping.