But it should be different, you might have much less controll over these pets then a traditional petclass like WoW hunter or Warlock. These Companions might act on their own sometimes. But thats unknown yet..
I say its an interesting twist and different
I know it's heresy mto say this but I genuinely feel that the way the companion system is being implemented - or seems to be being implemented - suggests that the PVE game will primarily be an SRPG online game. I have no problems with that in terms of playability but I do query what will happen if people don't want to raid or PVP? Will they pay a monthly 'rent' for a single player game?
So if you have a pet/companion this means your not inclined to want to raid? is this what your getting at?
Alot of ppl who are posting about companions right now are plain scare mongering, have they suddenly forgot years of pet classes that came before?
It was said earlier that you can think of these companions as advanced pets, thats all they are, advanced pets.
My first character within any MMO was that of a pet class, I played a Mage in EQ1 and absolutely loved it, it never stopped me from raiding as I could quite easily put my pet away, and from what I read of the companions you will have the same choice.
So to all those that have had a brain fart and wiped all pet classes from their memories, it's pretty easy not to summon/call/create your pet/companion, you just simply don't hit the button.
About video footage and voice overs in MMORPG's: they are terrible when used with every interaction from NPC's.
Buy AoConan and try out the first 20 levels: if by the 30th quest you are NOT skipping the in game loading video, call me back.
It works in single player games, but not in on line games based on player interactions.
Two complete different gaming genres.
The single linair story telling and companion NPC's is another big difference (as many other subtle differences).
I bought AOC from half price books a few months back for 6 bucks. Check my past threads i've written if you don't believe me. Tortage was the only part of the game I liked. Many people feel the same way I do. This was one of the reasons AOC got such high reviews when it released. The rest of the game was nothing like that. TOR will not be like that, you will be primarily in the open world with flashpoints for short instances before you are kicked out to the open world. This was shown in video footage.
Thanks for the link. I had watched it before. The footage shows what could be PvP, but shows very little of it. No way to know if it's any good. For example - how much role does CC play? WH Online had way too much, and some Mythic people are working on SWTOR now. Should we worry about that?
Cryptic claimed to have crafting in STO. Technically, it's true, but it is beyond pathetic and makes WH Online's look brilliant and deep.
Having something that could technically be called PvP, crafting, and end game doesn't mean those aspects are any good or had any serious development put into them.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
But it should be different, you might have much less controll over these pets then a traditional petclass like WoW hunter or Warlock. These Companions might act on their own sometimes. But thats unknown yet..
I say its an interesting twist and different
I know it's heresy mto say this but I genuinely feel that the way the companion system is being implemented - or seems to be being implemented - suggests that the PVE game will primarily be an SRPG online game. I have no problems with that in terms of playability but I do query what will happen if people don't want to raid or PVP? Will they pay a monthly 'rent' for a single player game?
So if you have a pet/companion this means your not inclined to want to raid? is this what your getting at?
Alot of ppl who are posting about companions right now are plain scare mongering, have they suddenly forgot years of pet classes that came before?
It was said earlier that you can think of these companions as advanced pets, thats all they are, advanced pets.
My first character within any MMO was that of a pet class, I played a Mage in EQ1 and absolutely loved it, it never stopped me from raiding as I could quite easily put my pet away, and from what I read of the companions you will have the same choice.
So to all those that have had a brain fart and wiped all pet classes from their memories, it's pretty easy not to summon/call/create your pet/companion, you just simply don't hit the button.
If you would have taken the time to read what Bioware said in interviews about their companion system (see a few pages back), you would know these are "not" pets....
...but full grown NPC's with their own history lines and interaction with other NPC's.
Like I quoted "it is going to be fun jetting around the galaxy with your won AI pals ... they'll round out your abilities ... and have things to contribute during conversations with ... other NPC's".
"They'll start to see more like scenes from films ..."
it must be really exciting to see that video footage of NPC's talking with each other.
-
I even begin to wonder who - in this scenario - will be the player and how will play the NPC? .... because both will be playing in the same liniair motion picture...
Just grab the last Dragon Age or ME and the same techniques are being used there.
Or ... should I quote from another Bioware developper: "By the time it is done it will have more pre-recorded dialogues than all former Bioware games combined".
Swell. But NPC dialogues have nothing to do with gameplay.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Then you've been reading different posts then I have because "MMO players don't want to play games with cinematics and voiceovers" sure sounds like you're stating a fact and not an opinion.
Not to me, it doesn't. It sounds like an opinion to me.
I think someone needs to google the difference between fact and opinion in contextual situations. Without stating it specifically as an opinion or using a "feeling" word you thereby are basing your statement as fact. When I state an opinion, its easy to tell, I use words like, "supposedly, I think, I feel, perhaps" These aren't present in factual statements.
When I say. "All MMO players like PvE more than PvP." that sounds like I'm saying something factual. When I say "I think all MMO players like PvE more than PvP." it is simply stated as opinion. Though most statements posted on these boards are obviously opinion, unless states specifically as such, I take them that the poster cannot differentiate their opinion as fact if they do not state it as such. Perhaps thats the difference between how we understand our posts on a forum, you may take every statement as opinion whereas I take all statements with a contextual connotation of fact, as fact.
Ok here is the challenge: Find the first Bioware game: played hours on Xfire. DA was in the top 6 at launch so the excuse that that tool only tracks on line games is irrelevant.
Now you may convince me why on line games - be it competitive or MMO's - are "not" essentially diffferent from single player adventure games with "immersive NPC" play.
And we talk about Bioware games launched in the past 8 months.
MMo's are all about long term paying subscriptions. The problem of the " 200 hours worth of video gameplay " is showing a lot in those stats isn't it ?
Video footage and voice overs simply have nothing to do with long term gaming value :
In online games it is the players that matter and its end game to keep them playing, not the NPC's or "follow the video footage".
Xfire...hmmm...you're starting to sound like somebody who once crawled around the WoW forums here. He would always fall back on silly things to support his game like xfire and how much money they bring in. Don't recall his name though.
Quote: We want to make sure that when people play ToR they feel like they never run out of content... that it's an epic story - CVG March 2010
200 x 8 = 1600 hours of character gameplay. I refuse to use your "50 hours of gameplay, 150 of voice acting" because it holds no solid evidence, not to mention, voice acting is not gameplay. 1600 hours total per toon, and you want to question long term?
Video footage and voice overs will not hold players long term, this you're correct, this is fluff, fluff that does improve immersion which is a plus. But without anything behind it, it's useless. So we already came out with 1600 hours of quest gameplay. Let's look at other things ToR may bring us. .
Small amount of PvP action shown between 3 players during Dev. Video (4.00) - Designing the Darkside
It looks possible that Open World PvP is available in game as seen in Video (ofc it could just be a PvP Server)- Combat Dev. Vid.
PvP is in TOR - Multiple Interviews
Loot sets also seem to be in game, possible mutliple PvP sets mentioned - Gamespot Smuggler
PvP is something people enjoy, this may keep players around. And not just PvP, but PvP rewards for the player to stick around and try to achieve.
"Going to have crafting and harvesting, going to have guilds and social activities" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
“Hey, if I’m really into more the crafting, harvesting, auction house type of gameplay, are you going to support that?” "Absolutely" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
Crafting and harvesting are good places to start with holding players it gives the game some depth, also guilds and social activities, playing with people quite simply, helps keeping people to what is claimed to be an MMO.
A space Experience will be in game, its still being worked on - Machinima
Space confirmed, more material to keep those wanting more, happy.
There are repeatable Flashpoints and General Content in game - Darth Hater Q&A PAX
Didn't get that piece of loot you wanted in your story flashpoint, or feel like experiencing it again but with a friend?
he general gist is that we want to reward grouping, but not so much that grouping is the only way to play the game - XP Damion Schubert
Reward grouping, so I'll be rewarded for not soloing? Maybe we should look into this more.
_____________
Originally Posted by DamionSchubert
We increase the XP pool for each group member in it, and then divide that pool. I don't have the number in front of me, but its something we'll be tweaking as we play anyway.
The general gist is that we want to reward grouping, but not so much that grouping is the only way to play the game (something that is very easy to do if you tilt the table too much, and then balance the levelling curve to that rate gain). That being said, as some have mentioned, grouping with another person increases your killing efficiency and reduces your risk of death substantially, to the degree that being in a group of two is vastly more efficient than 2X killing efficiency (this is like most MMOs). Still, you want to reward grouping enough to help ensure that you overcome the friction associated with grouping (finding groupmates, getting to them, tolerating idiots, etc).
Other notes:
Yes, we have anti-twink measures. Yes, high level players get shut out if they kill creatures too far below them. This is a fine line - you want to let high level players help their new friends, but you really don't want high level players hunting in low level areas, as that can be disruptive to the lowbies.
Yes, compared to other MMOs, we give you more XP for completing quests and less for killing creatures. These numbers will also likely be continually tweaked.
Yes, harder things give more experience.
Balancing it's not that easy. Instead, you need to look at XP gain per hour. A group of 3 can kill (let's say) 5X the creatures than a solo player can in an hour, which means that if you give everyone the full XP value, grouping is 5X(!) more efficient than soloing. If you balance the curve to that, the solo player gets screwed.
In our curve, we push that towards being closer to 2-3X. Still a significant advantage, but the grouper has to deal with all of the inertia of forming a group.
_______________
Creatures are not a big part of leveling, but quests on the other hand. I think a group of 5 could plow right through some quests, (Oh I mean a group of 5 and their 5 companions, sorry) even faster and a more attractive option. faster then one person and his companion.
Quote :"There is exploration, there is combat, it is a wide-open world" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
Quote From Daniel Erickson: "One of the real things we wanted to show at GDC this year is that our worlds are huge, actually. They are giant, you can explore. They are massive. You can just wander off one direction and go forever." - Darth Hater GDC
Exploration, etc.
Anyways, I'm bored now. I'm going to have a smoke and hit the sack. I think it's fair to say ToR may offer more then you believe. Keep people long term, hehehe, that's a good one. WoW survives on repeating everything you did the day before, and repeating it for the rest of your active subscription, but ToR on the other hand there is no way it could compete.
About video footage and voice overs in MMORPG's: they are terrible when used with every interaction from NPC's.
Buy AoConan and try out the first 20 levels: if by the 30th quest you are NOT skipping the in game loading video, call me back.
It works in single player games, but not in on line games based on player interactions.
Two complete different gaming genres.
The single linair story telling and companion NPC's is another big difference (as many other subtle differences).
Completely and absolutely false. The first 20 levels of Age of Conan were actually heralded as excellent upon release -because- of the voice acting. People complained afterwards because it was almost completely devoid from the rest of the game.
Also, skipping a repetitive starting sequence is wholly different than skipping uniquely different dialogues and cutscenes. I skip the intro on TV series when I watch them on Netflix too. Your example was truly ridiculous.
Thanks for the link. I had watched it before. The footage shows what could be PvP, but shows very little of it. No way to know if it's any good. For example - how much role does CC play? WH Online had way too much, and some Mythic people are working on SWTOR now. Should we worry about that?
Cryptic claimed to have crafting in STO. Technically, it's true, but it is beyond pathetic and makes WH Online's look brilliant and deep.
Having something that could technically be called PvP, crafting, and end game doesn't mean those aspects are any good or had any serious development put into them.
So we aren't under any misconceptions this is PvP. If you pause it at 3:57, you can see 2 of the screens of the players fighting eachother, one of them is attacking, the other one is being hit.
Not every class I've seen has crowd control but just about every class utilizes a stun of some sort. In the video you can see that the force choke was used on another player doing meager damage but it held the player for a short time. The electricity seemed to be some sort of temporary stun while it was going on. A lot of it seemed to be showcasing the PvP instead of a free for all where they just run an gun at eachother. One player would wait while the other player choked one of them.
As features get released, we'll have more to show. As for crafting, I don't expect anything much more involved then what the KOTOR games had previously. I really don't expect something along the lines of Vanguard, SWG or Fallen Earth.. I think we'll see a very simple system for crafting.
Then you've been reading different posts then I have because "MMO players don't want to play games with cinematics and voiceovers" sure sounds like you're stating a fact and not an opinion.
Not to me, it doesn't. It sounds like an opinion to me.
I think someone needs to google the difference between fact and opinion in contextual situations. Without stating it specifically as an opinion or using a "feeling" word you thereby are basing your statement as fact. When I state an opinion, its easy to tell, I use words like, "supposedly, I think, I feel, perhaps" These aren't present in factual statements.
When I say. "All MMO players like PvE more than PvP." that sounds like I'm saying something factual. When I say "I think all MMO players like PvE more than PvP." it is simply stated as opinion. Though most statements posted on these boards are obviously opinion, unless states specifically as such, I take them that the poster cannot differentiate their opinion as fact if they do not state it as such. Perhaps thats the difference between how we understand our posts on a forum, you may take every statement as opinion whereas I take all statements with a contextual connotation of fact, as fact.
Nobody talked about less opinion or more facts.
I talked about Bioware statements in interviews which simply can't be put under the door mat and combined it with what I have seen in the last 10 years in playing MMo's and their "success" stories.
I didn't say either that SW:TOR could be enjoyed by a lot of people. But I doubt it will be played as an mmorpg in the long run if they don't talk about the real gaming features it may have.
If that's an opinion: ok, but I am not basing it on thin air either (as I grab the interviews from Bioware's PR people).
You can't deny they talk far more about voice over and recorded dialogues than PvP techniques, end game content and crafting, which btw ... is the real staying power of mmorpg's.... because after all: they are ... video games.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I think someone needs to google the difference between fact and opinion in contextual situations. Without stating it specifically as an opinion or using a "feeling" word you thereby are basing your statement as fact. When I state an opinion, its easy to tell, I use words like, "supposedly, I think, I feel, perhaps" These aren't present in factual statements.
Oh, you are right about context being important. For instance, if someone makes a claim that couldn't possibly be factual (like knowing what all players think), then you assume it is an opinion, not a fact.
When I say. "All MMO players like PvE more than PvP." that sounds like I'm saying something factual."
No, because you have no way of knowing that to be a fact - as it would require mind reading abilities (which I asssume you do not have).
If the comment can't possibly be factual, then the reasonable course is to assume it is opinion.
When I say "I think all MMO players like PvE more than PvP." it is simply stated as opinion. Though most statements posted on these boards are obviously opinion, unless states specifically as such, I take them that the poster cannot differentiate their opinion as fact if they do not state it as such. Perhaps thats the difference between how we understand our posts on a forum, you may take every statement as opinion whereas I take all statements with a contextual connotation of fact, as fact.
Your understanding of context is limited and it is hurting your comprehension. It isn't really context you are looking at, but grammar. Sentence structure.
If I say "dogs are better pets than cats". You would take that as a statement of fact, when it is actually just my opinion.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Then you've been reading different posts then I have because "MMO players don't want to play games with cinematics and voiceovers" sure sounds like you're stating a fact and not an opinion.
Not to me, it doesn't. It sounds like an opinion to me.
I think someone needs to google the difference between fact and opinion in contextual situations. Without stating it specifically as an opinion or using a "feeling" word you thereby are basing your statement as fact. When I state an opinion, its easy to tell, I use words like, "supposedly, I think, I feel, perhaps" These aren't present in factual statements.
When I say. "All MMO players like PvE more than PvP." that sounds like I'm saying something factual. When I say "I think all MMO players like PvE more than PvP." it is simply stated as opinion. Though most statements posted on these boards are obviously opinion, unless states specifically as such, I take them that the poster cannot differentiate their opinion as fact if they do not state it as such. Perhaps thats the difference between how we understand our posts on a forum, you may take every statement as opinion whereas I take all statements with a contextual connotation of fact, as fact.
Nobody talked about less opinion or more facts.
I talked about Bioware statements in interviews which simply can't be put under the door mat and combined it with what I have seen in the last 10 years in playing MMo's and their "success" stories.
I didn't say either that SW:TOR could be enjoyed by a lot of people. But I doubt it will be played as an mmorpg in the long run if they don't talk about the real gaming features it may have.
If that's an opinion: ok, but I am not basing it on thin air either (as I grab the interviews from Bioware's PR people).
You can't deny they talk far more about voice over and recorded dialogues than PvP techniques, end game content and crafting, which btw ... is the real staying power of mmorpg's.... because after all: they are ... video games.
Well then this could all be chalked up to a misunderstanding. If your opinion is that the game won't do well due to story I can completely understand and relate to that. In the past many month they have spoken about the story aspects a lot and less about the other MMO features though not because the game is devoid of them. In the first video I posted they explained why they haven't gone into detail about the MMO features, though what many people are looking for, is details.
In time detail will be revealed and I'm sure we'll be hitting these same sore spots based on more information that hasn't been released. As long as I can clearly tell what people are stating as opinion and fact, I think the discussions will become more productive and less heated.
I think someone needs to google the difference between fact and opinion in contextual situations. Without stating it specifically as an opinion or using a "feeling" word you thereby are basing your statement as fact. When I state an opinion, its easy to tell, I use words like, "supposedly, I think, I feel, perhaps" These aren't present in factual statements.
Oh, you are right about context being important. For instance, if someone makes a claim that couldn't possibly be factual (like knowing what all players think), then you assume it is an opinion, not a fact.
When I say. "All MMO players like PvE more than PvP." that sounds like I'm saying something factual."
No, because you have no way of knowing that to be a fact - as it would require mind reading abilities (which I asssume you do not have).
If the comment can't possibly be factual, then the reasonable course is to assume it is opinion.
When I say "I think all MMO players like PvE more than PvP." it is simply stated as opinion. Though most statements posted on these boards are obviously opinion, unless states specifically as such, I take them that the poster cannot differentiate their opinion as fact if they do not state it as such. Perhaps thats the difference between how we understand our posts on a forum, you may take every statement as opinion whereas I take all statements with a contextual connotation of fact, as fact.
Your understanding of context is limited and it is hurting your comprehension. It isn't really context you are looking at, but grammar. Sentence structure.
If I say "dogs are better pets than cats". You would take that as a statement of fact, when it is actually just my opinion.
So what you're saying (paraphrasing) is that anything you see as being unable to be proven you use that as the distinction between fact and opinion. My only problem is, we get people on these forums sometimes that actually have opinions that they feel are factually represented by a playerbase. Being around for as long as I have, I haven't had much of a luxury dealing with people that could make their opinions distinguishable by them simply being unproven. Perhaps thats my fault for not taking a hint. Maybe I've just become too proper in the way I take opinions now...
200 x 8 = 1600 hours of character gameplay. I refuse to use your "50 hours of gameplay, 150 of voice acting" because it holds no solid evidence, not to mention, voice acting is not gameplay. 1600 hours total per toon, and you want to question long term?
Video footage and voice overs will not hold players long term, this you're correct, this is fluff, fluff that does improve immersion which is a plus. But without anything behind it, it's useless. So we already came out with 1600 hours of quest gameplay. Let's look at other things ToR may bring us. .
Small amount of PvP action shown between 3 players during Dev. Video (4.00) - Designing the Darkside
It looks possible that Open World PvP is available in game as seen in Video (ofc it could just be a PvP Server)- Combat Dev. Vid.
PvP is in TOR - Multiple Interviews
Loot sets also seem to be in game, possible mutliple PvP sets mentioned - Gamespot Smuggler
PvP is something people enjoy, this may keep players around. And not just PvP, but PvP rewards for the player to stick around and try to achieve.
"Going to have crafting and harvesting, going to have guilds and social activities" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
“Hey, if I’m really into more the crafting, harvesting, auction house type of gameplay, are you going to support that?” "Absolutely" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
Crafting and harvesting are good places to start with holding players it gives the game some depth, also guilds and social activities, playing with people quite simply, helps keeping people to what is claimed to be an MMO.
A space Experience will be in game, its still being worked on - Machinima
It is 200 hours of video game experience per class they stated, so how would they define the hours played? Big chance the recorded in game videos are included within that time frame. The "recorded dialogue" thing is their selling point. Or otherwise they would have doubled the figures.
Btw it is 200 hours per toon not 1600 . Substracting the pre recorded dialogue play, that would lead to 100 hours of joy - with NPC's on your side.
The game is 8 to 10 months from launch... Anything "talked about" (professions) or "looked into" at this stage is rather late into the development cycle. The information is too scarce compared to what we knew and saw in other launches that were not even ready themselves.
PvP should almost be finished by this time (testing and balancing), as are the economy, the professions, the end game.
The last 6 months before launch only serve as play testing.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
200 x 8 = 1600 hours of character gameplay. I refuse to use your "50 hours of gameplay, 150 of voice acting" because it holds no solid evidence, not to mention, voice acting is not gameplay. 1600 hours total per toon, and you want to question long term?
Video footage and voice overs will not hold players long term, this you're correct, this is fluff, fluff that does improve immersion which is a plus. But without anything behind it, it's useless. So we already came out with 1600 hours of quest gameplay. Let's look at other things ToR may bring us. .
Small amount of PvP action shown between 3 players during Dev. Video (4.00) - Designing the Darkside
It looks possible that Open World PvP is available in game as seen in Video (ofc it could just be a PvP Server)- Combat Dev. Vid.
PvP is in TOR - Multiple Interviews
Loot sets also seem to be in game, possible mutliple PvP sets mentioned - Gamespot Smuggler
PvP is something people enjoy, this may keep players around. And not just PvP, but PvP rewards for the player to stick around and try to achieve.
"Going to have crafting and harvesting, going to have guilds and social activities" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
“Hey, if I’m really into more the crafting, harvesting, auction house type of gameplay, are you going to support that?” "Absolutely" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
Crafting and harvesting are good places to start with holding players it gives the game some depth, also guilds and social activities, playing with people quite simply, helps keeping people to what is claimed to be an MMO.
A space Experience will be in game, its still being worked on - Machinima
It is 200 hours of video game experience per class they stated, so how would they define the hours played? Big chance the recorded in game videos are included within that time frame. The "recorded dialogue" thing is their selling point. Or otherwise they would have doubled the figures.
Btw it is 200 hours per toon not 1600 . Substracting the pre recorded dialogue play, that would lead to 100 hours of joy - with NPC's on your side.
The game is 8 to 10 months from launch... Anything "talked about" (professions) or "looked into" at this stage is rather late into the development cycle. The information is too scarce compared to what we knew and saw in other launches that were not even ready themselves.
PvP should almost be finished by this time (testing and balancing), as are the economy, the professions, the end game.
The last 6 months before launch only serve as play testing.
Well, I'm going to play both sides on this one... but I'm going to make a few assumptions as well, so get ready for me to reach a little bit.
Theres 200+ hours of class story gameplay the devs said.
The flashpoints are instanced areas of story based gameplay
The game is 10 percent instanced and 90% open world.
Now lets apply that to the class story gameplay.
20 hours of instanced gameplay out of 200 hours. That would leave 180 hours left if we base it on the numbers given.
Yeah, thats reaching... but I think that would be the best estimate instead of grasping at numbers.
We'll see what they show at E3. Beta seems to be around the corner...
But it should be different, you might have much less controll over these pets then a traditional petclass like WoW hunter or Warlock. These Companions might act on their own sometimes. But thats unknown yet..
I say its an interesting twist and different
I know it's heresy mto say this but I genuinely feel that the way the companion system is being implemented - or seems to be being implemented - suggests that the PVE game will primarily be an SRPG online game. I have no problems with that in terms of playability but I do query what will happen if people don't want to raid or PVP? Will they pay a monthly 'rent' for a single player game?
So if you have a pet/companion this means your not inclined to want to raid? is this what your getting at?
Alot of ppl who are posting about companions right now are plain scare mongering, have they suddenly forgot years of pet classes that came before?
It was said earlier that you can think of these companions as advanced pets, thats all they are, advanced pets.
My first character within any MMO was that of a pet class, I played a Mage in EQ1 and absolutely loved it, it never stopped me from raiding as I could quite easily put my pet away, and from what I read of the companions you will have the same choice.
So to all those that have had a brain fart and wiped all pet classes from their memories, it's pretty easy not to summon/call/create your pet/companion, you just simply don't hit the button.
If you would have taken the time to read what Bioware said in interviews about their companion system (see a few pages back), you would know these are "not" pets....
...but full grown NPC's with their own history lines and interaction with other NPC's.
Like I quoted "it is going to be fun jetting around the galaxy with your won AI pals ... they'll round out your abilities ... and have things to contribute during conversations with ... other NPC's".
"They'll start to see more like scenes from films ..."
it must be really exciting to see that video footage of NPC's talking with each other.
-
I even begin to wonder who - in this scenario - will be the player and how will play the NPC? .... because both will be playing in the same liniair motion picture...
Just grab the last Dragon Age or ME and the same techniques are being used there.
Or ... should I quote from another Bioware developper: "By the time it is done it will have more pre-recorded dialogues than all former Bioware games combined".
Swell. But NPC dialogues have nothing to do with gameplay.
I have read it, even copy pasted it onto my guilds website, and your reading way too much into what a companion is, we suddenly haven't developed Star trek technology, the companion system will be an advanced pet, thats it, nothing more nothing less.
It will have scripted events to make it appear to have soime semblance of AI, it won't be able to think for itself, it will still require you as the controller to do that, whats so hard to fathom that bit out? have we suddenly leaped into the future and now have living breathing free thinking pets in our MMO's? NO we don't, just very clever pets that will have some conversation pieces now and then, jsut as they did in BG1/2.
Ppl really need to get their head around that it's just a pet, a fancy pet but still a pet.
As for DA I see nothing ground breaking about the pets in that game either, fantastic game, but my grp certainly didn't take control over my character and play the game for me, I still had to go to point a then point b and do whatever to create an event for my companions to react to, it wasn't the other way around.
However if you want to believe that having a companion is going to mean your ending up playing a single player game then thats your decision.
I really like the noone is forcing you to play with companions arguments posted by people like Masked and Greedo...
The fact that you 'll have less DPS, CC, or Tank assistance doesn't affect the "optional part" at all... I'm sure that all of you have stuck to using "level 30" equipment on your "level 80" characters or even same "level" eq but with the lowest possible stats simply because you had the choice and thought that they looker cooler for the character you wanted to portray....
The main perceivable issue, for the people voicing concern with companions, isn't the mechanics behind them or what not. It's that this is yet another sign that Bioware is leaning heavily on the story arc - class based + voice acting aspect of the game. While some people might not find this disturbing at all, infact they are really hyped by it, there are other that are deeply concerned for several reasons:
1) I am a huge KOTOR fan, and i used to believe Bioware were quite good at story telling and providing good albeit linear rpg experiences but Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age really put an end to that belief... truly sub par story telling especially compared to older titles. So the latest evidence of Bioware's ace card "story telling" aren't really that convincing... and create worries when they are intent on investing so much unto it for their MMO.
2) Story related content - quests - progression etc don't matter if it lasts for 10, 100 or 1000 play hours, it still dries up. Without a solid endgame or alternatively a more free sandbox theme longevity is hampered.
3) Balancing... Main focus being story driven class based.... you can bet player intereaction is going to be seriously unbalanced.
4) Immersion... story telling in the form that bioware is attempting it ie the "You are the hero" type doesn't add immersion in MMORPGs it removes it. How am i going to feel immersed as Jedi Master X Saviour of Coruscant when i know there is Jedi Master Bingo who saved it 2 hours ago and Jedi Master Ludicrous who is saving it again now. When me and my friend have the same companion? When me and 10 other players that look similar to me, have the same companions and also have the same title "Slayer of the 3 Fanged Rancor" next to our name? Where is does the immersion come from? and what about the sense of achievement?
200 x 8 = 1600 hours of character gameplay. I refuse to use your "50 hours of gameplay, 150 of voice acting" because it holds no solid evidence, not to mention, voice acting is not gameplay. 1600 hours total per toon, and you want to question long term?
Video footage and voice overs will not hold players long term, this you're correct, this is fluff, fluff that does improve immersion which is a plus. But without anything behind it, it's useless. So we already came out with 1600 hours of quest gameplay. Let's look at other things ToR may bring us. .
Small amount of PvP action shown between 3 players during Dev. Video (4.00) - Designing the Darkside
It looks possible that Open World PvP is available in game as seen in Video (ofc it could just be a PvP Server)- Combat Dev. Vid.
PvP is in TOR - Multiple Interviews
Loot sets also seem to be in game, possible mutliple PvP sets mentioned - Gamespot Smuggler
PvP is something people enjoy, this may keep players around. And not just PvP, but PvP rewards for the player to stick around and try to achieve.
"Going to have crafting and harvesting, going to have guilds and social activities" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
“Hey, if I’m really into more the crafting, harvesting, auction house type of gameplay, are you going to support that?” "Absolutely" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
Crafting and harvesting are good places to start with holding players it gives the game some depth, also guilds and social activities, playing with people quite simply, helps keeping people to what is claimed to be an MMO.
A space Experience will be in game, its still being worked on - Machinima
It is 200 hours of video game experience per class they stated, so how would they define the hours played? Big chance the recorded in game videos are included within that time frame. The "recorded dialogue" thing is their selling point. Or otherwise they would have doubled the figures.
Btw it is 200 hours per toon not 1600 . Substracting the pre recorded dialogue play, that would lead to 100 hours of joy - with NPC's on your side.
The game is 8 to 10 months from launch... Anything "talked about" (professions) or "looked into" at this stage is rather late into the development cycle. The information is too scarce compared to what we knew and saw in other launches that were not even ready themselves.
PvP should almost be finished by this time (testing and balancing), as are the economy, the professions, the end game.
The last 6 months before launch only serve as play testing.
Really 200 hours per class? Thought I made that apparant. There are 8 classes (16 if you count the advanced ones) 200 hours per class 200 x 8 = 1600 hours of TOTAL class gameplay. And how are you going from 150 to 100, keep guesstimation.
Your problem is that they're not releasin all the information because they're not ready to? Should they start making promises, would that make you feel better?
200 x 8 = 1600 hours of character gameplay. I refuse to use your "50 hours of gameplay, 150 of voice acting" because it holds no solid evidence, not to mention, voice acting is not gameplay. 1600 hours total per toon, and you want to question long term?
Video footage and voice overs will not hold players long term, this you're correct, this is fluff, fluff that does improve immersion which is a plus. But without anything behind it, it's useless. So we already came out with 1600 hours of quest gameplay. Let's look at other things ToR may bring us. .
Small amount of PvP action shown between 3 players during Dev. Video (4.00) - Designing the Darkside
It looks possible that Open World PvP is available in game as seen in Video (ofc it could just be a PvP Server)- Combat Dev. Vid.
PvP is in TOR - Multiple Interviews
Loot sets also seem to be in game, possible mutliple PvP sets mentioned - Gamespot Smuggler
PvP is something people enjoy, this may keep players around. And not just PvP, but PvP rewards for the player to stick around and try to achieve.
"Going to have crafting and harvesting, going to have guilds and social activities" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
“Hey, if I’m really into more the crafting, harvesting, auction house type of gameplay, are you going to support that?” "Absolutely" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
Crafting and harvesting are good places to start with holding players it gives the game some depth, also guilds and social activities, playing with people quite simply, helps keeping people to what is claimed to be an MMO.
A space Experience will be in game, its still being worked on - Machinima
It is 200 hours of video game experience per class they stated, so how would they define the hours played? Big chance the recorded in game videos are included within that time frame. The "recorded dialogue" thing is their selling point. Or otherwise they would have doubled the figures.
Btw it is 200 hours per toon not 1600 . Substracting the pre recorded dialogue play, that would lead to 100 hours of joy - with NPC's on your side.
The game is 8 to 10 months from launch... Anything "talked about" (professions) or "looked into" at this stage is rather late into the development cycle. The information is too scarce compared to what we knew and saw in other launches that were not even ready themselves.
PvP should almost be finished by this time (testing and balancing), as are the economy, the professions, the end game.
The last 6 months before launch only serve as play testing.
Well, I'm going to play both sides on this one... but I'm going to make a few assumptions as well, so get ready for me to reach a little bit.
Theres 200+ hours of class story gameplay the devs said.
The flashpoints are instanced areas of story based gameplay
The game is 10 percent instanced and 90% open world.
Now lets apply that to the class story gameplay.
20 hours of instanced gameplay out of 200 hours. That would leave 180 hours left if we base it on the numbers given.
Yeah, thats reaching... but I think that would be the best estimate instead of grasping at numbers.
We'll see what they show at E3. Beta seems to be around the corner...
There is something I'm curious about, they say there is two forms of quests in ToR, class quests and group quests. Are the group quests already a part of those 200 hours of class gameplay?
20 hours out of 200 sounds reasonable, wouldn't be surprised if this was correct.
I really like the noone is forcing you to play with companions arguments posted by people like Masked and Greedo...
No one is.
The fact that you 'll have less DPS, CC, or Tank assistance doesn't affect the "optional part" at all... I'm sure that all of you have stuck to using "level 30" equipment on your "level 80" characters or even same "level" eq but with the lowest possible stats simply because you had the choice and thought that they looker cooler for the character you wanted to portray....
You're making comparisons while not having solid evidence to support your claim. How do you know a companion is 50 levels worth of gear? I understand those numbers are random. But it's not worth even discussing until we know what all companions provide and how well they provide it.
The main perceivable issue, for the people voicing concern with companions, isn't the mechanics behind them or what not. It's that this is yet another sign that Bioware is leaning heavily on the story arc - class based + voice acting aspect of the game. While some people might not find this disturbing at all, infact they are really hyped by it, there are other that are deeply concerned for several reasons:
1) I am a huge KOTOR fan, and i used to believe Bioware were quite good at story telling and providing good albeit linear rpg experiences but Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age really put an end to that belief... truly sub par story telling especially compared to older titles. So the latest evidence of Bioware's ace card "story telling" aren't really that convincing... and create worries when they are intent on investing so much unto it for their MMO.
Dragon Age and Mass Effect 1 and 2 were very successful games. Mass Effect 2 being my favorite. They sold very well and recieved great reviews, The majority is not worried and is convinced. So you're wrong here, you disliked it.
2) Story related content - quests - progression etc don't matter if it lasts for 10, 100 or 1000 play hours, it still dries up. Without a solid endgame or alternatively a more free sandbox theme longevity is hampered.
Endgame is promised to be in release, if you don't feel like rerolling to experience another story there will be end game for you.
3) Balancing... Main focus being story driven class based.... you can bet player intereaction is going to be seriously unbalanced.
Are you asking how multiple class with different opinions on a story will work? Bob wants to kill the npc but Sally doesn't? I'd like to see how this works to.
4) Immersion... story telling in the form that bioware is attempting it ie the "You are the hero" type doesn't add immersion in MMORPGs it removes it. How am i going to feel immersed as Jedi Master X Saviour of Coruscant when i know there is Jedi Master Bingo who saved it 2 hours ago and Jedi Master Ludicrous who is saving it again now. When me and my friend have the same companion? When me and 10 other players that look similar to me, have the same companions and also have the same title "Slayer of the 3 Fanged Rancor" next to our name? Where is does the immersion come from? and what about the sense of achievement?
It's the same way in most games. What you're asking for is allowing one person to a quest or never seeing another person to have done the same quest. This would be absolutely insane, complete immersion is impossible no matter what some of you believe. Was you saving coruscant immersive? It would have been for me. Was you seeing another guy with the same title immersive. No. But I can't think of a logical way in fixing this.
Anyways good luck seeking an MMO that provides complete uniqueness/immersion to your character and yourself, you'll never find it. Oh and you're looking at everything completely wrong.
You're making comparisons while not having solid evidence to support your claim. How do you know a companion is 50 levels worth of gear? I understand those numbers are random. But it's not worth even discussing until we know what all companions provide and how well they provide it.
I made absolutely no comparison i simply stated that people do not forego bonuses (of any kind be it Equipment or NPC aid or whatnot) to their characters or their performance ingame intentionally opting to be worse than the rest of the playerbase for the sake of not being identical to others. It's not a discussion about actual numbers it's a matter of general practise by the vast majority playerbase. Your argument would only stand if companions affected you negatively.
Dragon Age and Mass Effect 1 and 2 were very successful games. Mass Effect 2 being my favorite. They sold very well and recieved great reviews, The majority is not worried and is convinced. So you're wrong here, you disliked it
As i stated : "While some people might not find this disturbing at all, infact they are really hyped by it"
How can i be wrong about something that is subjective? People can like and people can dislike...wrong or right has nothing to do with it. I just attempted to explain why some people are worried about this heavy focus on story arc or are you implying that i am the only person that thought ME 2 and DA had seriously worse stories compared to previous BIOWARE games?
Endgame is promised to be in release, if you don't feel like rerolling to experience another story there will be end game for you.
I seriously doubt even with all the idiotic things developers have done in the past decade that someone would release a mmo without endgame... what i said was without SOLID endgame and how this is a perceivable problem given that BIOWARE is showing what is to some, clearly not you, an unhealthy focus on story tied around individual classes and voice acting. Is that so illogical for you? You've never worried about anything in your life? didn't express your concerns before it manifested?
It's the same way in most games. What you're asking for is allowing one person to a quest or never seeing another person to have done the same quest. This would be absolutely insane, complete immersion is impossible no matter what some of you believe. Was you saving coruscant immersive? It would have been for me. Was you seeing another guy with the same title immersive. No. But I can't think of a logical way in fixing this.
I am not asking for anything. I am just pointing out how aspects of the class based story arc progression system make it even less immersive than what we currently have in most MMOs already. Sure it will be more fleshed out that the run of the mill quest systems we've seen so far but what it gains it stands to lose due to the more restrictive shoehorning it incorporates based on what we've heard so far of course. Saying it's the same way in most games isn't an excuse.
What i would ask for personally would be for BIOWARE to state what their plan is regarding player-made content, now that's a good source of immersion imho.
200 x 8 = 1600 hours of character gameplay. I refuse to use your "50 hours of gameplay, 150 of voice acting" because it holds no solid evidence, not to mention, voice acting is not gameplay. 1600 hours total per toon, and you want to question long term?
Video footage and voice overs will not hold players long term, this you're correct, this is fluff, fluff that does improve immersion which is a plus. But without anything behind it, it's useless. So we already came out with 1600 hours of quest gameplay. Let's look at other things ToR may bring us. .
Small amount of PvP action shown between 3 players during Dev. Video (4.00) - Designing the Darkside
It looks possible that Open World PvP is available in game as seen in Video (ofc it could just be a PvP Server)- Combat Dev. Vid.
PvP is in TOR - Multiple Interviews
Loot sets also seem to be in game, possible mutliple PvP sets mentioned - Gamespot Smuggler
PvP is something people enjoy, this may keep players around. And not just PvP, but PvP rewards for the player to stick around and try to achieve.
"Going to have crafting and harvesting, going to have guilds and social activities" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
“Hey, if I’m really into more the crafting, harvesting, auction house type of gameplay, are you going to support that?” "Absolutely" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
Crafting and harvesting are good places to start with holding players it gives the game some depth, also guilds and social activities, playing with people quite simply, helps keeping people to what is claimed to be an MMO.
A space Experience will be in game, its still being worked on - Machinima
It is 200 hours of video game experience per class they stated, so how would they define the hours played? Big chance the recorded in game videos are included within that time frame. The "recorded dialogue" thing is their selling point. Or otherwise they would have doubled the figures.
Btw it is 200 hours per toon not 1600 . Substracting the pre recorded dialogue play, that would lead to 100 hours of joy - with NPC's on your side.
The game is 8 to 10 months from launch... Anything "talked about" (professions) or "looked into" at this stage is rather late into the development cycle. The information is too scarce compared to what we knew and saw in other launches that were not even ready themselves.
PvP should almost be finished by this time (testing and balancing), as are the economy, the professions, the end game.
The last 6 months before launch only serve as play testing.
Well, I'm going to play both sides on this one... but I'm going to make a few assumptions as well, so get ready for me to reach a little bit.
Theres 200+ hours of class story gameplay the devs said.
The flashpoints are instanced areas of story based gameplay
The game is 10 percent instanced and 90% open world.
Now lets apply that to the class story gameplay.
20 hours of instanced gameplay out of 200 hours. That would leave 180 hours left if we base it on the numbers given.
Yeah, thats reaching... but I think that would be the best estimate instead of grasping at numbers.
We'll see what they show at E3. Beta seems to be around the corner...
There is something I'm curious about, they say there is two forms of quests in ToR, class quests and group quests. Are the group quests already a part of those 200 hours of class gameplay?
20 hours out of 200 sounds reasonable, wouldn't be surprised if this was correct.
I do not think that group quests are part of the 200 hours of gameplay. They said each story arc spans this amount of time. I can only make a broad assumption based on the information given, but with repeatable flashpoints and missions, those will most probably be withheld for the group quests specifically.
As they said previously, if you solo just the class based content you miss out on a lot of the other content thats available. This was compounded by an article that said something along the lines of some group quests being solo-able if you outlevel the content and come back to it at a later time. This leads me to believe that group questing will be tiered and repeatable for those that specifically want to level with group quests only.
They also said that grouping was entirely optional, and if group quests were part of the class storyline then it wouldn't be optional at all. To me this means that class missions and group missions aren't considered part of the same content completion time.
I made absolutely no comparison i simply stated that people do not forego bonuses (of any kind be it Equipment or NPC aid or whatnot) to their characters or their performance ingame intentionally opting to be worse than the rest of the playerbase for the sake of not being identical to others. It's not a discussion about actual numbers it's a matter of general practise by the vast majority playerbase. Your argument would only stand if companions affected you negatively.
You still have no clue how effective they are. The good news is everybody will have a companion, it's up to you to use it or not. If you don't like companions and it's preventing you from playing the game, step out, game wasn't made for you. Companions are in the game, this has been known for quite some time. They will not remove something that has worked for them in their games and other games (including MMOs) just to make you happy.
As i stated : "While some people might not find this disturbing at all, infact they are really hyped by it"
How can i be wrong about something that is subjective? People can like and people can dislike...wrong or right has nothing to do with it. I just attempted to explain why some people are worried about this heavy focus on story arc or are you implying that i am the only person that thought ME 2 and DA had seriously worse stories compared to previous BIOWARE games?
Don't care what you stated, fact is BioWare is still just as popular as they were when they released KoTOR. Their story telling is still great, their games sell just as well if not better. Not everybody will be happy, some people is not a concern.
I seriously doubt even with all the idiotic things developers have done in the past decade that someone would release a mmo without endgame... what i said was without SOLID endgame and how this is a perceivable problem given that BIOWARE is showing what is to some, clearly not you, an unhealthy focus on story tied around individual classes and voice acting. Is that so illogical for you? You've never worried about anything in your life? didn't express your concerns before it manifested?
Endgame (strickly Pve) is not a concern of mine, but I do believe SOLID is what they will deliver. I've yet to be disapointed. But yeah, my mistake I must have missed the solid part.
Oh as far as my major concern: Payment Methods. Yup, that's about it. I've liked everything I've seen so far. I also have no intentions on discussing it here. I do that on the official forums.
I am not asking for anything. I am just pointing out how aspects of the class based story arc progression system make it even less immersive than what we currently have in most MMOs already. Sure it will be more fleshed out that the run of the mill quest systems we've seen so far but what it gains it stands to lose due to the more restrictive shoehorning it incorporates based on what we've heard so far of course. Saying it's the same way in most games isn't an excuse.
All this talk about immersion, you know, I've only ever gotten close to encountering true immersion in a Single player game, never an MMO. I do not believe true immersion to be possible in an MMO, if the devs don't ruin it, the players will. Every MMO will have something to ruin your immersion because perfection doesn't exist, one side or the other will destroy it in an MMO. Btw you're preaching to the wrong person here, I play MMOs to kill players not scripted bosses or to role play a Dark Jedi that hates strawberry cupcakes.
What i would ask for personally would be for BIOWARE to state what their plan is regarding player-made content, now that's a good source of immersion imho.
Yup that's what we need players to run the game. Maybe 5 or 7 years ago. Currently, lets do the quest "Over 9000" where you're forced to kill over 9000 Rodians using eye wear. That will certainly increase immersion. Online marriages, funerals, Birthday parties, crappy boring badly written quest for golden bunnies. no, do not want.
And just so I don't sound like a total dick, I'm know there are some players capable of making great events, quests etc, I've seen a few nice PvP and Pve events in SWG, creativity something most people lack. Instead they resort to internet memes. BioWare needs to review the ideas of the players and keep a serious attitude about it, it's the only way I'll have sort of interest in taking place in your event. But then again, why are you worried if I like it or not? So far It's working out quite well for me. You and some others, not so much...
In short I disagree and agree at the same time, no I have no sympathy for you or anybody else and yes I'm an asshole. This is also not SWTOR.com forums, voice concerns and suggestions here
I do not think that group quests are part of the 200 hours of gameplay. They said each story arc spans this amount of time. I can only make a broad assumption based on the information given, but with repeatable flashpoints and missions, those will most probably be withheld for the group quests specifically.
As they said previously, if you solo just the class based content you miss out on a lot of the other content thats available. This was compounded by an article that said something along the lines of some group quests being solo-able if you outlevel the content and come back to it at a later time. This leads me to believe that group questing will be tiered and repeatable for those that specifically want to level with group quests only.
They also said that grouping was entirely optional, and if group quests were part of the class storyline then it wouldn't be optional at all. To me this means that class missions and group missions aren't considered part of the same content completion time.
Thats just how I've perceived it though
200 hours might not sound like much to most people, in my opinion it could promise 5000 per class but without those 5000 hours being fun I find it a pointless number.
Other then that I found a few more interesting quotes.
There is a World/Galactic Story and your Personal Class Story - Darth Hater Q&A PAX
There is an END to each classes Story with new content to extend each story- MMOGamer
I'm also curious if companions are part of the class story, probably so considering companions are unique depending on class. Anyways, some quotes on those just for fun.
Quote: 'Companion Characters may act as your conscience, and try to influence your decisions. In turn, you will influence them, and change how they develop as the story progresses.' - IGN May 2010
Your companions, as you progress through the game, will open up unique series of quests and rewards - IGN May 2010
until they come up with an actual thinking AI that does not need to run on scripts and start using it in MMOs.
The day that happens is the day terminator irl happens.
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW -------- Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD --------- Played and loved: Eve and WoW -------- Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
Comments
So if you have a pet/companion this means your not inclined to want to raid? is this what your getting at?
Alot of ppl who are posting about companions right now are plain scare mongering, have they suddenly forgot years of pet classes that came before?
It was said earlier that you can think of these companions as advanced pets, thats all they are, advanced pets.
My first character within any MMO was that of a pet class, I played a Mage in EQ1 and absolutely loved it, it never stopped me from raiding as I could quite easily put my pet away, and from what I read of the companions you will have the same choice.
So to all those that have had a brain fart and wiped all pet classes from their memories, it's pretty easy not to summon/call/create your pet/companion, you just simply don't hit the button.
I bought AOC from half price books a few months back for 6 bucks. Check my past threads i've written if you don't believe me. Tortage was the only part of the game I liked. Many people feel the same way I do. This was one of the reasons AOC got such high reviews when it released. The rest of the game was nothing like that. TOR will not be like that, you will be primarily in the open world with flashpoints for short instances before you are kicked out to the open world. This was shown in video footage.
Thanks for the link. I had watched it before. The footage shows what could be PvP, but shows very little of it. No way to know if it's any good. For example - how much role does CC play? WH Online had way too much, and some Mythic people are working on SWTOR now. Should we worry about that?
Cryptic claimed to have crafting in STO. Technically, it's true, but it is beyond pathetic and makes WH Online's look brilliant and deep.
Having something that could technically be called PvP, crafting, and end game doesn't mean those aspects are any good or had any serious development put into them.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
If you would have taken the time to read what Bioware said in interviews about their companion system (see a few pages back), you would know these are "not" pets....
...but full grown NPC's with their own history lines and interaction with other NPC's.
Like I quoted "it is going to be fun jetting around the galaxy with your won AI pals ... they'll round out your abilities ... and have things to contribute during conversations with ... other NPC's".
"They'll start to see more like scenes from films ..."
it must be really exciting to see that video footage of NPC's talking with each other.
-
I even begin to wonder who - in this scenario - will be the player and how will play the NPC? .... because both will be playing in the same liniair motion picture...
Just grab the last Dragon Age or ME and the same techniques are being used there.
Or ... should I quote from another Bioware developper: "By the time it is done it will have more pre-recorded dialogues than all former Bioware games combined".
Swell. But NPC dialogues have nothing to do with gameplay.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I think someone needs to google the difference between fact and opinion in contextual situations. Without stating it specifically as an opinion or using a "feeling" word you thereby are basing your statement as fact. When I state an opinion, its easy to tell, I use words like, "supposedly, I think, I feel, perhaps" These aren't present in factual statements.
When I say. "All MMO players like PvE more than PvP." that sounds like I'm saying something factual. When I say "I think all MMO players like PvE more than PvP." it is simply stated as opinion. Though most statements posted on these boards are obviously opinion, unless states specifically as such, I take them that the poster cannot differentiate their opinion as fact if they do not state it as such. Perhaps thats the difference between how we understand our posts on a forum, you may take every statement as opinion whereas I take all statements with a contextual connotation of fact, as fact.
Xfire...hmmm...you're starting to sound like somebody who once crawled around the WoW forums here. He would always fall back on silly things to support his game like xfire and how much money they bring in. Don't recall his name though.
Quote: We want to make sure that when people play ToR they feel like they never run out of content... that it's an epic story - CVG March 2010
200 x 8 = 1600 hours of character gameplay. I refuse to use your "50 hours of gameplay, 150 of voice acting" because it holds no solid evidence, not to mention, voice acting is not gameplay. 1600 hours total per toon, and you want to question long term?
Video footage and voice overs will not hold players long term, this you're correct, this is fluff, fluff that does improve immersion which is a plus. But without anything behind it, it's useless. So we already came out with 1600 hours of quest gameplay. Let's look at other things ToR may bring us. .
Small amount of PvP action shown between 3 players during Dev. Video (4.00) - Designing the Darkside
It looks possible that Open World PvP is available in game as seen in Video (ofc it could just be a PvP Server)- Combat Dev. Vid.
PvP is in TOR - Multiple Interviews
Loot sets also seem to be in game, possible mutliple PvP sets mentioned - Gamespot Smuggler
PvP is something people enjoy, this may keep players around. And not just PvP, but PvP rewards for the player to stick around and try to achieve.
"Going to have crafting and harvesting, going to have guilds and social activities" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
“Hey, if I’m really into more the crafting, harvesting, auction house type of gameplay, are you going to support that?” "Absolutely" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
Crafting and harvesting are good places to start with holding players it gives the game some depth, also guilds and social activities, playing with people quite simply, helps keeping people to what is claimed to be an MMO.
A space Experience will be in game, its still being worked on - Machinima
Space confirmed, more material to keep those wanting more, happy.
There are repeatable Flashpoints and General Content in game - Darth Hater Q&A PAX
Didn't get that piece of loot you wanted in your story flashpoint, or feel like experiencing it again but with a friend?
he general gist is that we want to reward grouping, but not so much that grouping is the only way to play the game - XP Damion Schubert
Reward grouping, so I'll be rewarded for not soloing? Maybe we should look into this more.
_____________
Originally Posted by DamionSchubert
We increase the XP pool for each group member in it, and then divide that pool. I don't have the number in front of me, but its something we'll be tweaking as we play anyway.
The general gist is that we want to reward grouping, but not so much that grouping is the only way to play the game (something that is very easy to do if you tilt the table too much, and then balance the levelling curve to that rate gain). That being said, as some have mentioned, grouping with another person increases your killing efficiency and reduces your risk of death substantially, to the degree that being in a group of two is vastly more efficient than 2X killing efficiency (this is like most MMOs). Still, you want to reward grouping enough to help ensure that you overcome the friction associated with grouping (finding groupmates, getting to them, tolerating idiots, etc).
Other notes:
Yes, we have anti-twink measures. Yes, high level players get shut out if they kill creatures too far below them. This is a fine line - you want to let high level players help their new friends, but you really don't want high level players hunting in low level areas, as that can be disruptive to the lowbies.
Yes, compared to other MMOs, we give you more XP for completing quests and less for killing creatures. These numbers will also likely be continually tweaked.
Yes, harder things give more experience.
Balancing it's not that easy. Instead, you need to look at XP gain per hour. A group of 3 can kill (let's say) 5X the creatures than a solo player can in an hour, which means that if you give everyone the full XP value, grouping is 5X(!) more efficient than soloing. If you balance the curve to that, the solo player gets screwed.
In our curve, we push that towards being closer to 2-3X. Still a significant advantage, but the grouper has to deal with all of the inertia of forming a group.
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Creatures are not a big part of leveling, but quests on the other hand. I think a group of 5 could plow right through some quests, (Oh I mean a group of 5 and their 5 companions, sorry) even faster and a more attractive option. faster then one person and his companion.Quote :"There is exploration, there is combat, it is a wide-open world" - MMOGamer - Blaine Christine
Quote From Daniel Erickson: "One of the real things we wanted to show at GDC this year is that our worlds are huge, actually. They are giant, you can explore. They are massive. You can just wander off one direction and go forever." - Darth Hater GDC
Exploration, etc.
Anyways, I'm bored now. I'm going to have a smoke and hit the sack. I think it's fair to say ToR may offer more then you believe. Keep people long term, hehehe, that's a good one. WoW survives on repeating everything you did the day before, and repeating it for the rest of your active subscription, but ToR on the other hand there is no way it could compete.
Completely and absolutely false. The first 20 levels of Age of Conan were actually heralded as excellent upon release -because- of the voice acting. People complained afterwards because it was almost completely devoid from the rest of the game.
Also, skipping a repetitive starting sequence is wholly different than skipping uniquely different dialogues and cutscenes. I skip the intro on TV series when I watch them on Netflix too. Your example was truly ridiculous.
So we aren't under any misconceptions this is PvP. If you pause it at 3:57, you can see 2 of the screens of the players fighting eachother, one of them is attacking, the other one is being hit.
Not every class I've seen has crowd control but just about every class utilizes a stun of some sort. In the video you can see that the force choke was used on another player doing meager damage but it held the player for a short time. The electricity seemed to be some sort of temporary stun while it was going on. A lot of it seemed to be showcasing the PvP instead of a free for all where they just run an gun at eachother. One player would wait while the other player choked one of them.
As features get released, we'll have more to show. As for crafting, I don't expect anything much more involved then what the KOTOR games had previously. I really don't expect something along the lines of Vanguard, SWG or Fallen Earth.. I think we'll see a very simple system for crafting.
Nobody talked about less opinion or more facts.
I talked about Bioware statements in interviews which simply can't be put under the door mat and combined it with what I have seen in the last 10 years in playing MMo's and their "success" stories.
I didn't say either that SW:TOR could be enjoyed by a lot of people. But I doubt it will be played as an mmorpg in the long run if they don't talk about the real gaming features it may have.
If that's an opinion: ok, but I am not basing it on thin air either (as I grab the interviews from Bioware's PR people).
You can't deny they talk far more about voice over and recorded dialogues than PvP techniques, end game content and crafting, which btw ... is the real staying power of mmorpg's.... because after all: they are ... video games.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Your understanding of context is limited and it is hurting your comprehension. It isn't really context you are looking at, but grammar. Sentence structure.
If I say "dogs are better pets than cats". You would take that as a statement of fact, when it is actually just my opinion.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Well then this could all be chalked up to a misunderstanding. If your opinion is that the game won't do well due to story I can completely understand and relate to that. In the past many month they have spoken about the story aspects a lot and less about the other MMO features though not because the game is devoid of them. In the first video I posted they explained why they haven't gone into detail about the MMO features, though what many people are looking for, is details.
In time detail will be revealed and I'm sure we'll be hitting these same sore spots based on more information that hasn't been released. As long as I can clearly tell what people are stating as opinion and fact, I think the discussions will become more productive and less heated.
So what you're saying (paraphrasing) is that anything you see as being unable to be proven you use that as the distinction between fact and opinion. My only problem is, we get people on these forums sometimes that actually have opinions that they feel are factually represented by a playerbase. Being around for as long as I have, I haven't had much of a luxury dealing with people that could make their opinions distinguishable by them simply being unproven. Perhaps thats my fault for not taking a hint. Maybe I've just become too proper in the way I take opinions now...
This has been a very interesting discussion, but I need to take a break and get some sleep.
Later, folks.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Well, I'm going to play both sides on this one... but I'm going to make a few assumptions as well, so get ready for me to reach a little bit.
Theres 200+ hours of class story gameplay the devs said.
The flashpoints are instanced areas of story based gameplay
The game is 10 percent instanced and 90% open world.
Now lets apply that to the class story gameplay.
20 hours of instanced gameplay out of 200 hours. That would leave 180 hours left if we base it on the numbers given.
Yeah, thats reaching... but I think that would be the best estimate instead of grasping at numbers.
We'll see what they show at E3. Beta seems to be around the corner...
I have read it, even copy pasted it onto my guilds website, and your reading way too much into what a companion is, we suddenly haven't developed Star trek technology, the companion system will be an advanced pet, thats it, nothing more nothing less.
It will have scripted events to make it appear to have soime semblance of AI, it won't be able to think for itself, it will still require you as the controller to do that, whats so hard to fathom that bit out? have we suddenly leaped into the future and now have living breathing free thinking pets in our MMO's? NO we don't, just very clever pets that will have some conversation pieces now and then, jsut as they did in BG1/2.
Ppl really need to get their head around that it's just a pet, a fancy pet but still a pet.
As for DA I see nothing ground breaking about the pets in that game either, fantastic game, but my grp certainly didn't take control over my character and play the game for me, I still had to go to point a then point b and do whatever to create an event for my companions to react to, it wasn't the other way around.
However if you want to believe that having a companion is going to mean your ending up playing a single player game then thats your decision.
I really like the noone is forcing you to play with companions arguments posted by people like Masked and Greedo...
The fact that you 'll have less DPS, CC, or Tank assistance doesn't affect the "optional part" at all... I'm sure that all of you have stuck to using "level 30" equipment on your "level 80" characters or even same "level" eq but with the lowest possible stats simply because you had the choice and thought that they looker cooler for the character you wanted to portray....
The main perceivable issue, for the people voicing concern with companions, isn't the mechanics behind them or what not. It's that this is yet another sign that Bioware is leaning heavily on the story arc - class based + voice acting aspect of the game. While some people might not find this disturbing at all, infact they are really hyped by it, there are other that are deeply concerned for several reasons:
1) I am a huge KOTOR fan, and i used to believe Bioware were quite good at story telling and providing good albeit linear rpg experiences but Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age really put an end to that belief... truly sub par story telling especially compared to older titles. So the latest evidence of Bioware's ace card "story telling" aren't really that convincing... and create worries when they are intent on investing so much unto it for their MMO.
2) Story related content - quests - progression etc don't matter if it lasts for 10, 100 or 1000 play hours, it still dries up. Without a solid endgame or alternatively a more free sandbox theme longevity is hampered.
3) Balancing... Main focus being story driven class based.... you can bet player intereaction is going to be seriously unbalanced.
4) Immersion... story telling in the form that bioware is attempting it ie the "You are the hero" type doesn't add immersion in MMORPGs it removes it. How am i going to feel immersed as Jedi Master X Saviour of Coruscant when i know there is Jedi Master Bingo who saved it 2 hours ago and Jedi Master Ludicrous who is saving it again now. When me and my friend have the same companion? When me and 10 other players that look similar to me, have the same companions and also have the same title "Slayer of the 3 Fanged Rancor" next to our name? Where is does the immersion come from? and what about the sense of achievement?
Really 200 hours per class? Thought I made that apparant. There are 8 classes (16 if you count the advanced ones) 200 hours per class 200 x 8 = 1600 hours of TOTAL class gameplay. And how are you going from 150 to 100, keep guesstimation.
Your problem is that they're not releasin all the information because they're not ready to? Should they start making promises, would that make you feel better?
There is something I'm curious about, they say there is two forms of quests in ToR, class quests and group quests. Are the group quests already a part of those 200 hours of class gameplay?
20 hours out of 200 sounds reasonable, wouldn't be surprised if this was correct.
As for E3, this was posted here before, http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/8103/g4tv-will-broadcast-30-minutes-of-star-wars-the-old-republic-at-e3
You're making comparisons while not having solid evidence to support your claim. How do you know a companion is 50 levels worth of gear? I understand those numbers are random. But it's not worth even discussing until we know what all companions provide and how well they provide it.
I made absolutely no comparison i simply stated that people do not forego bonuses (of any kind be it Equipment or NPC aid or whatnot) to their characters or their performance ingame intentionally opting to be worse than the rest of the playerbase for the sake of not being identical to others. It's not a discussion about actual numbers it's a matter of general practise by the vast majority playerbase. Your argument would only stand if companions affected you negatively.
Dragon Age and Mass Effect 1 and 2 were very successful games. Mass Effect 2 being my favorite. They sold very well and recieved great reviews, The majority is not worried and is convinced. So you're wrong here, you disliked it
As i stated : "While some people might not find this disturbing at all, infact they are really hyped by it"
How can i be wrong about something that is subjective? People can like and people can dislike...wrong or right has nothing to do with it. I just attempted to explain why some people are worried about this heavy focus on story arc or are you implying that i am the only person that thought ME 2 and DA had seriously worse stories compared to previous BIOWARE games?
Endgame is promised to be in release, if you don't feel like rerolling to experience another story there will be end game for you.
I seriously doubt even with all the idiotic things developers have done in the past decade that someone would release a mmo without endgame... what i said was without SOLID endgame and how this is a perceivable problem given that BIOWARE is showing what is to some, clearly not you, an unhealthy focus on story tied around individual classes and voice acting. Is that so illogical for you? You've never worried about anything in your life? didn't express your concerns before it manifested?
It's the same way in most games. What you're asking for is allowing one person to a quest or never seeing another person to have done the same quest. This would be absolutely insane, complete immersion is impossible no matter what some of you believe. Was you saving coruscant immersive? It would have been for me. Was you seeing another guy with the same title immersive. No. But I can't think of a logical way in fixing this.
I am not asking for anything. I am just pointing out how aspects of the class based story arc progression system make it even less immersive than what we currently have in most MMOs already. Sure it will be more fleshed out that the run of the mill quest systems we've seen so far but what it gains it stands to lose due to the more restrictive shoehorning it incorporates based on what we've heard so far of course. Saying it's the same way in most games isn't an excuse.
What i would ask for personally would be for BIOWARE to state what their plan is regarding player-made content, now that's a good source of immersion imho.
I do not think that group quests are part of the 200 hours of gameplay. They said each story arc spans this amount of time. I can only make a broad assumption based on the information given, but with repeatable flashpoints and missions, those will most probably be withheld for the group quests specifically.
As they said previously, if you solo just the class based content you miss out on a lot of the other content thats available. This was compounded by an article that said something along the lines of some group quests being solo-able if you outlevel the content and come back to it at a later time. This leads me to believe that group questing will be tiered and repeatable for those that specifically want to level with group quests only.
They also said that grouping was entirely optional, and if group quests were part of the class storyline then it wouldn't be optional at all. To me this means that class missions and group missions aren't considered part of the same content completion time.
Thats just how I've perceived it though
200 hours might not sound like much to most people, in my opinion it could promise 5000 per class but without those 5000 hours being fun I find it a pointless number.
Other then that I found a few more interesting quotes.
There is a World/Galactic Story and your Personal Class Story - Darth Hater Q&A PAX
There is an END to each classes Story with new content to extend each story- MMOGamer
I'm also curious if companions are part of the class story, probably so considering companions are unique depending on class. Anyways, some quotes on those just for fun.
Quote: 'Companion Characters may act as your conscience, and try to influence your decisions. In turn, you will influence them, and change how they develop as the story progresses.' - IGN May 2010
Your companions, as you progress through the game, will open up unique series of quests and rewards - IGN May 2010
The day that happens is the day terminator irl happens.
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW
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Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD
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Played and loved: Eve and WoW
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Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P