For one, the fact is these are all old remarks that go back to Everquest. Whether its PvP or PvE, the underlying basis of either is imposing one's advantages to anothers disadvantages. The players who know how to successfully PvP/vE know it means bringing the gun to a knife fight. Is that unfair? Well yea. And that's the "carebear" arguement and viewpoint of "its not fair" or "its not even". Take into account the arguments that stem from the middle ground: time constraints, money constraints (because lets face it, if you work you aren't going to play as often) and life's obligations. And the middle ground can be that player who hasn't tried it yet, the one who wants to PvP/vE but knows with little time they can't really do it or whoever. The problem though with "your line, whatever you feel is your limit" can always be beyond the game dynamics. Ever play Diablo and find yourself fighting against a "hacked" character? Its true they don't care and just want to own. But that's where we stand in the state-of-affairs with mmo's: what will people do and how far will they go to be their own self-proclaimed #1. And lets face it, once you talk about and get into outside game dynamics issues, we have more of a problem when it comes to PvP/vE. And frankly why a company attempts to make the game fair as far as game dynamics go, its in the interest of certain players to always be a step ahead of both the system and other players.
On a second issue, I think what currently complicates the state of mmo's are the fact that console gamers are getting into it and want a "clear" way to demonstrate whose "top dog". In console games, especially FPS, you can judge "the best" based on several criteria. Whether its points, streaks or most kills, you have some tangible, quantitative figure that you can look at and say "omgz I teh l337". In FF and mmo's in general we don't have something like that. We instead aim for the "oh hellz yeah I got a (lol)claustrum just because I can". A joking example really but gets to the point that we rely on armor/equipment largely to show off how far we are up the ladder vs. everyone else. MMORPG's in general will always require a community of sorts but 1) competition with the player and everyone else still exists and even in the community and 2) players want more a way to show whose the best and that they are amongst that group. Does FF really need PvP/vE to be successful? No, not at all. Could it benefit from it? No one really can answer that at all either. I think EVE-online probably has the best PvP/vE concept going on that accomodates readily and easily both sides and the middle-ground in a way that works, makes sense and is functional. But I also think that GIVEN THE GAME HAS BEEN STATED TO ALSO ATTRACT AND MAINTAIN SOME FAMILIARITY WITH FF11 PLAYERS, STOP BIT**ING AND WHINING ABOUT IT!
But I also think that GIVEN THE GAME HAS BEEN STATED TO ALSO ATTRACT AND MAINTAIN SOME FAMILIARITY WITH FF11 PLAYERS, STOP BIT**ING AND WHINING ABOUT IT!
Ummm sir, I do not believe anyone is really bit**ing and whining about it. We are having a sensible discussion about the possibility of there not being ANY pvp in Final Fantasy 14.......if you do not want to contribute to the thread, you could simply not post. Cheers.
"Orc Centurion is Mesmerized." "Orc Priest casts Abolishment on Orc Centurion." "Orc Centurion has been cured of all Status effects." Cool down of Mesmerize is 20 seconds, so you cast stifle on Orc Priest for 15 seconds disabling all magic abilities. Orc Centurion uses a potion of dispel II eliminating 20 lvls of crowd control affects." Orc priest is no longer disabled.
Thats the kinda stuff I'm talking about. ITs not rocket science, its good planning. My dirge would never leave the city without a stifle or mezz immune potion in case I ran into an Illusionist, Coercer, or Troubadour (All of who can mesmerize). I expect for many AI encounters to do the same. THINK!!!!!!!Just because you have mezzed the encounter should not make it an automatic win for you. Its just..../sigh......there has to be a way to tie it all together.
Well, problem is the lack of developers/programmers actually making games this way. I would absolutely love an MMO that made pretty much every PvE fight more like fighting another player and actually thinking & reacting in unexpected ways. If I had that I wouldn't need to rely on being able to find other players to fight. Perhaps we will see stuff like this in a few years with better & cheaper technology and games finally starting to push towards things like dynamic content, such as Guild Wars 2. Hopefully someone will pick up on what GW2 is doing, and incorporate not only a dynamic world, but more dynamic mob AI as well. IMO it would be great for companies to start actually bringing on experienced PVPers to assist with the development of games in order to get feedback from them as far as what type of reactions they would have to certain situations, add in some random elements, and to program their PvE accordingly rather than having mobs do basically the bare minimum and become a push over to most players.
Actually, developers have had the capability and a few have tried making the AI you've expressed a desire for. Generally the AI is dumbed down in beta as the players testing complain about it being too hard. (I believe someone suggest people whining about this.)
You can see an example of this in WoW of all places. In a raid instance called 'Trial of the Crusader' there's a fight where you battle AI members of the opposite faction that play more like actual people. (Generally the fight is explained to new players as a 'PvP' fight.) In the easy version of the instance it's possible to use aggro mechanics on them (with a limited duration) but in the hard version they act completely like players. When I was raiding more often in WoW most pick-up groups failed at this point. It turns out many PvE players lack PvP skills and don't really enjoy that play style.
FFXIV appears to be in a situation where they could make this a reality for most fights instead of a rarity that many players don't know how to deal with. As they've stated they plan on pursuing group v. group combat instead of group v. one combat you could see groups of enemies made of up some combination of tanks, dps, buffers, debuffers, CCers, and/or healers doing their thing. It would force players to learn how to use all their abilities. (In the afore mentioned WoW fight I've run into more than one player who didn't even know they had CC or debuff abilities and had to be coached on where to find them and how to use them.)
What I'd like to see (but doubt FFXIV will go this direction) is mobs that force you to use tactics to keep them from your 'squishy' characters. In this ideal world collision in enabled outside of cities and/or player hubs (disabled within to keep players from griefing by blocking an important NPC, transportation, etc.) Tank type players would have to literally block mobs attempts to reach their healers. Squishier characters would have to be ready to move, run mobs through a meat shield screen, find high ground to attack from, or tank themselves. Healers would have more to do than play 'whack-a-mole' as they'd have to either be a tank (like a FFXI paladin or DnD cleric) or be ready to kite a mob while they heal.
The potential downside of this is the thing FFXIV develops talk about wanting to avoid. The formation of 'camps.' Players would likely find a location with favorable terrain and use it as much as possible.
Still, well done, I think it could be fun and it'd certainly be different.
FFXI had a some pvp in it that one could do with your guild or friends. It was alot more fun loosing between friends and not having to worry about your score. I wouldn't mind if they carry that over to XIV.
What you have all said about asshats in PvP is all well and good, but I think your terms are a bit narrow. Consider for a moment that there are a lot of people who dislike losing to an asshat in PvP and that each person is going to have a slightly different definition of what "acceptable PvP behavior" entails. Imagine that you went around and asked a whole bunch of MMO players which of these situations could be described as asshattery/ganking:
Being killed by someone who, for whatever reason (gear, level, etc.), you could not have beaten in a straight-up fight
Being killed by someone who you could have beaten except for a circumstance that they arranged (e.g. while you were fighting a mob)
Being killed solo by a party of players
Being killed by the same person every time you return to the area (note: I don't mean corpse camping)
Being killed by a method that your class has little or no defense against (kiting, stunlock, etc.)
Being killed and then taunted
Being killed by someone sitting and waiting for prey at an entrance or zone boundary
Being killed by a party member leading you into an ambush
Being killed by a party member in undeserved retribution for something you did (winning a loot roll, party wipe that wasn't your fault)
Being killed by someone who is using tons of cash-shop items
Being killed with an exploit
Being killed by someone in a way that breaks lore
Being killed for fun: in a place or in a way that does not give your attacker any in-game reward
Being killed in order to nab the rare spawn you were fighting
Across the wide spectrum of MMO players, you'd get a spectacular variety of responses. There is very little consensus on what is okay and what isn't. You could talk yourself to death about any one of these points and it wouldn't make a bit of difference. There's no Holy Tome of Acceptable PvP Behavior. For any one of these situations, your stance on it is only your opinion. If you think it's fair, you're going to insist that that's just how the game is played. If you think only a scumbag would do it, even a post from the devs/GMs wouldn't change your mind.
I think this is a large reason why there's so much animosity between PvP lovers and PvE lovers. Those who enjoy PvP are bound to find more of these methods acceptable than those who don't enjoy PvP. No matter where you draw the line, you view the people to the left of the line as "griefers/gankers" who revel in unsporting behavior that is destructive to the playerbase, and people to the right of the line as "carebears" who have so little skill that they resort to whining about all the fights they can't win. The problem is, people forget it's not THE line, it's YOUR line. Your opinion, neither right nor wrong.
You're completely justified in calling people out as asshats or wusses for what they will or won't engage in, but only so far as Your Humble Opinion is concerned.
I completely agree with pretty much everything said in this post. This is the problem with PVP in MMORPGs, there is no "right" way to do it because everyone has a different opinion of what PVP they want. Sure you could do the method the most PVPers want but that still leaves a good amount of the PVP community dissatisfied and undoubtable alienates a percentage of the PVE community that does not want anything to do with PVP.
My personal opinion on the matter of PVP in FFXIV is that I don't want there to be any more than was in FFXI. I want it to be completely optional with no rewards that the community decides are must haves. This isnt because I don't like PVP, its just because that isn't why I want to play FFXIV. Never in the years that I played FFXI did I ever PVP in the game. If I want PVP i'll reactivate an account in another game or try a game completely built for PVP.
A lot of the problems we have with PVE/PVP would be solved if Blizzard, and all the other MMO companies who follow them like a dog, didnt tried/try endlessly to do the stupid thing of balancing PVE/PVP in the same gameworlds.
I say, give more meaning to the words "PVP server" and "PVE server". Create different game modes, features, even the spells could behave different; for ppl in PVP or PVE servers. Kick PVP out of PVE servers, and PVE out of PVP servers; STOP screwing one part of the game to fix the other! Have them both -- But, in different sets (server types).
Want to play PVP and PVE? Just have 2 chars. Want to play only one of them? Stick to your server type.
All happy, all in peace.
The pvp community could then help the pvp server team develop a much better PVP experience along the mmo lifespan, as the pve community with the PVE experience.
And dont tell me the companies cant take that approach because its complicated. Huge releases have the personnel and resources to do it.
That right there irks me. I'm not the type of person that plays multiple MMO's or jumps around when i get bored.
I put all my time and effort into one MMO in order to really get lost in the world/game/lore.
Therefore i would prefer to have everything i want and enjoy in one MMO. That includes PVE and PVP.
While i prefer open world PVP, i have no issues with seperating it from PVE and with seperate rules and all that jazz.
I like options, as many as possible, and i like them all in one tightly wrapped package.
I have to ask... How can someone who spent so much time playing FFXI be so against keeping the same PVP structure that FFXI used?
Also I enjoy open world PVP as well. I know FFXIV is supposed to be more casual friendly, but I am still hoping and hearing that much of the PVE system will be groups of players fighting groups of enemies. In a game that expects group combat I don't think open world PVP is a good idea, because most of the games I have played featuring open world PVP have been plagued by lower sub numbers than say FFXI. A group focused game need people to group with. That is the reason I would prefer to have my open world PVP in a different game.
For the most part debating PvP/vE in FF is useless; its not going to appear in a manner like you have in WoW or such which is really the poster child of modern mmo's for that type of stuff. Ganking and such are really elements of PvP and PvP/vE and will always feature a segment of the population wanting that sub for an advantage. I think FF could only feature PvP/vE if it was in a "controlled setting" like it was in EvE-online but only more so with safeguards protecting low levels from being ganked during exping. No matter what FF stands as a "community building" mmo which is both unique and carries limits other games don't have.
That right there irks me. I'm not the type of person that plays multiple MMO's or jumps around when i get bored.
I put all my time and effort into one MMO in order to really get lost in the world/game/lore.
Therefore i would prefer to have everything i want and enjoy in one MMO. That includes PVE and PVP.
While i prefer open world PVP, i have no issues with seperating it from PVE and with seperate rules and all that jazz.
I like options, as many as possible, and i like them all in one tightly wrapped package.
I have to ask... How can someone who spent so much time playing FFXI be so against keeping the same PVP structure that FFXI used?
Also I enjoy open world PVP as well. I know FFXIV is supposed to be more casual friendly, but I am still hoping and hearing that much of the PVE system will be groups of players fighting groups of enemies. In a game that expects group combat I don't think open world PVP is a good idea, because most of the games I have played featuring open world PVP have been plagued by lower sub numbers than say FFXI. A group focused game need people to group with. That is the reason I would prefer to have my open world PVP in a different game.
I'm with you on somehow finding a system that makes ganking impossible, as it shows no skill and usually favors scout classes, 1 on 1 anyways.
As for the system in XI, i couldn't tell you because no one on my server did it. Of the few that did manage to have people, it favored certain classes/jobs, which in turn kept people from trying it.
Also you have to remember the huge time investment PVE had in XI, camping mobs around the clock. There was little to no time for side content like that for people in HNMLS's. The time spent not camping a mob was spent sleeping. Something i will never do again in future MMO's.
Originally posted by Jimmydean Originally posted by Someguynamed Then how do players know who owns who?
Reputation > All. In FFXI, you could have the best gear possible, and if you were a dick you still weren't getting party invites. The kind players with patience, who knew their jobs, and who had a great knowledge of the game stood out beyond all others. Which IMO, is how it should be. I don't care how many purples you have if you are whiny, impatient, and just all around borderline retarded.
Comments
For one, the fact is these are all old remarks that go back to Everquest. Whether its PvP or PvE, the underlying basis of either is imposing one's advantages to anothers disadvantages. The players who know how to successfully PvP/vE know it means bringing the gun to a knife fight. Is that unfair? Well yea. And that's the "carebear" arguement and viewpoint of "its not fair" or "its not even". Take into account the arguments that stem from the middle ground: time constraints, money constraints (because lets face it, if you work you aren't going to play as often) and life's obligations. And the middle ground can be that player who hasn't tried it yet, the one who wants to PvP/vE but knows with little time they can't really do it or whoever. The problem though with "your line, whatever you feel is your limit" can always be beyond the game dynamics. Ever play Diablo and find yourself fighting against a "hacked" character? Its true they don't care and just want to own. But that's where we stand in the state-of-affairs with mmo's: what will people do and how far will they go to be their own self-proclaimed #1. And lets face it, once you talk about and get into outside game dynamics issues, we have more of a problem when it comes to PvP/vE. And frankly why a company attempts to make the game fair as far as game dynamics go, its in the interest of certain players to always be a step ahead of both the system and other players.
On a second issue, I think what currently complicates the state of mmo's are the fact that console gamers are getting into it and want a "clear" way to demonstrate whose "top dog". In console games, especially FPS, you can judge "the best" based on several criteria. Whether its points, streaks or most kills, you have some tangible, quantitative figure that you can look at and say "omgz I teh l337". In FF and mmo's in general we don't have something like that. We instead aim for the "oh hellz yeah I got a (lol)claustrum just because I can". A joking example really but gets to the point that we rely on armor/equipment largely to show off how far we are up the ladder vs. everyone else. MMORPG's in general will always require a community of sorts but 1) competition with the player and everyone else still exists and even in the community and 2) players want more a way to show whose the best and that they are amongst that group. Does FF really need PvP/vE to be successful? No, not at all. Could it benefit from it? No one really can answer that at all either. I think EVE-online probably has the best PvP/vE concept going on that accomodates readily and easily both sides and the middle-ground in a way that works, makes sense and is functional. But I also think that GIVEN THE GAME HAS BEEN STATED TO ALSO ATTRACT AND MAINTAIN SOME FAMILIARITY WITH FF11 PLAYERS, STOP BIT**ING AND WHINING ABOUT IT!
Ummm sir, I do not believe anyone is really bit**ing and whining about it. We are having a sensible discussion about the possibility of there not being ANY pvp in Final Fantasy 14.......if you do not want to contribute to the thread, you could simply not post. Cheers.
Actually, developers have had the capability and a few have tried making the AI you've expressed a desire for. Generally the AI is dumbed down in beta as the players testing complain about it being too hard. (I believe someone suggest people whining about this.)
You can see an example of this in WoW of all places. In a raid instance called 'Trial of the Crusader' there's a fight where you battle AI members of the opposite faction that play more like actual people. (Generally the fight is explained to new players as a 'PvP' fight.) In the easy version of the instance it's possible to use aggro mechanics on them (with a limited duration) but in the hard version they act completely like players. When I was raiding more often in WoW most pick-up groups failed at this point. It turns out many PvE players lack PvP skills and don't really enjoy that play style.
FFXIV appears to be in a situation where they could make this a reality for most fights instead of a rarity that many players don't know how to deal with. As they've stated they plan on pursuing group v. group combat instead of group v. one combat you could see groups of enemies made of up some combination of tanks, dps, buffers, debuffers, CCers, and/or healers doing their thing. It would force players to learn how to use all their abilities. (In the afore mentioned WoW fight I've run into more than one player who didn't even know they had CC or debuff abilities and had to be coached on where to find them and how to use them.)
What I'd like to see (but doubt FFXIV will go this direction) is mobs that force you to use tactics to keep them from your 'squishy' characters. In this ideal world collision in enabled outside of cities and/or player hubs (disabled within to keep players from griefing by blocking an important NPC, transportation, etc.) Tank type players would have to literally block mobs attempts to reach their healers. Squishier characters would have to be ready to move, run mobs through a meat shield screen, find high ground to attack from, or tank themselves. Healers would have more to do than play 'whack-a-mole' as they'd have to either be a tank (like a FFXI paladin or DnD cleric) or be ready to kite a mob while they heal.
The potential downside of this is the thing FFXIV develops talk about wanting to avoid. The formation of 'camps.' Players would likely find a location with favorable terrain and use it as much as possible.
Still, well done, I think it could be fun and it'd certainly be different.
FFXI had a some pvp in it that one could do with your guild or friends. It was alot more fun loosing between friends and not having to worry about your score. I wouldn't mind if they carry that over to XIV.
fail
I completely agree with pretty much everything said in this post. This is the problem with PVP in MMORPGs, there is no "right" way to do it because everyone has a different opinion of what PVP they want. Sure you could do the method the most PVPers want but that still leaves a good amount of the PVP community dissatisfied and undoubtable alienates a percentage of the PVE community that does not want anything to do with PVP.
My personal opinion on the matter of PVP in FFXIV is that I don't want there to be any more than was in FFXI. I want it to be completely optional with no rewards that the community decides are must haves. This isnt because I don't like PVP, its just because that isn't why I want to play FFXIV. Never in the years that I played FFXI did I ever PVP in the game. If I want PVP i'll reactivate an account in another game or try a game completely built for PVP.
That right there irks me. I'm not the type of person that plays multiple MMO's or jumps around when i get bored.
I put all my time and effort into one MMO in order to really get lost in the world/game/lore.
Therefore i would prefer to have everything i want and enjoy in one MMO. That includes PVE and PVP.
While i prefer open world PVP, i have no issues with seperating it from PVE and with seperate rules and all that jazz.
I like options, as many as possible, and i like them all in one tightly wrapped package.
A lot of the problems we have with PVE/PVP would be solved if Blizzard, and all the other MMO companies who follow them like a dog, didnt tried/try endlessly to do the stupid thing of balancing PVE/PVP in the same gameworlds.
I say, give more meaning to the words "PVP server" and "PVE server". Create different game modes, features, even the spells could behave different; for ppl in PVP or PVE servers. Kick PVP out of PVE servers, and PVE out of PVP servers; STOP screwing one part of the game to fix the other! Have them both -- But, in different sets (server types).
Want to play PVP and PVE? Just have 2 chars. Want to play only one of them? Stick to your server type.
All happy, all in peace.
The pvp community could then help the pvp server team develop a much better PVP experience along the mmo lifespan, as the pve community with the PVE experience.
And dont tell me the companies cant take that approach because its complicated. Huge releases have the personnel and resources to do it.
I have to ask... How can someone who spent so much time playing FFXI be so against keeping the same PVP structure that FFXI used?
Also I enjoy open world PVP as well. I know FFXIV is supposed to be more casual friendly, but I am still hoping and hearing that much of the PVE system will be groups of players fighting groups of enemies. In a game that expects group combat I don't think open world PVP is a good idea, because most of the games I have played featuring open world PVP have been plagued by lower sub numbers than say FFXI. A group focused game need people to group with. That is the reason I would prefer to have my open world PVP in a different game.
For the most part debating PvP/vE in FF is useless; its not going to appear in a manner like you have in WoW or such which is really the poster child of modern mmo's for that type of stuff. Ganking and such are really elements of PvP and PvP/vE and will always feature a segment of the population wanting that sub for an advantage. I think FF could only feature PvP/vE if it was in a "controlled setting" like it was in EvE-online but only more so with safeguards protecting low levels from being ganked during exping. No matter what FF stands as a "community building" mmo which is both unique and carries limits other games don't have.
I'm with you on somehow finding a system that makes ganking impossible, as it shows no skill and usually favors scout classes, 1 on 1 anyways.
As for the system in XI, i couldn't tell you because no one on my server did it. Of the few that did manage to have people, it favored certain classes/jobs, which in turn kept people from trying it.
Also you have to remember the huge time investment PVE had in XI, camping mobs around the clock. There was little to no time for side content like that for people in HNMLS's. The time spent not camping a mob was spent sleeping. Something i will never do again in future MMO's.
"TO MICHAEL!"