I do agree with you Ihmotepp on that more developers should aim for niche markets and give us more varied games rather then whole "one game to rule them all" approach.
However with the costs of creating MMOs skyrocketing and the expectations for polish and performance and content and a lack of bugs etc. as high as it is, you have to match your budget and reach and subscriber base to the amount of money you put into making and then maintaining the game.
You can't make a game for a 50k niche audience if it's going to cost you 100 million dollars to make that game and support it up to the standards we the masses expect.
Unless you are self published and extremely wealthy and don't have to deal with publishers and financing.
But if you have that kind of money and power you probably aren't in the video game business.
Interesting OP. I don't think those two games set the bar toohigh, but they certainly modified expectations of players of what a sandbox MMO or a casual/theme park/easy accessible MMO should have.
Of course new MMO's will have a hard time having the amount of content and polish that MMO's like WoW and EVE Online have with already 5 or more years under their belt. So there will be players who found their game experience lacking when they were looking for 'another WoW' or 'another EVE'
But there are a few phenomenons that can counter this rigid state of MMO being:
- (most) people grow bored of constantly the same, that's not fun. People want their entertainment to be varying and exciting, so they will look for something else after a while. Even if MMO's have the longest durability of games, there's an end to the lifecycle, many people will grow tired of playing only WoW or EVE Online, and will either stop or vary playing those two games with other MMO's.
- new MMO's will have features and technology that older MMO's haven't: some things WoW could implement as well in a later patch, but other things will be too far from its own gameplay to be successfully implemented. As the last 20 years have shown when it comes to technology and hi tech entertainment, the newest things coming into the market will draw eyes automatically.
- other MMO's are getting better as well: what was good for EVE Online will be good for other MMO's as well, namely a few more years that can give a MMO enough badly needed polish or content to become interesting to some, who ignored those MMO's before. Examples as Lotro, EQ2 or AoC.
- Looking at what will be released the next few years, there are some pretty interesting MMO's coming up: GW2, TSW, WoD, TERA, FFXIV, SW ToR among others, those will maybe not radically alter the theatre of MMO's, but can offer enough of an alternative for a lot of players who were already looking for something fresh and different. Something new. And yes, I know that this has been said before and that it didn't happen back then, and some of those upcoming titles will certainly fall short from expectations. But still, some of these newer batch have the potential to be gamechangers in one way or the other.
What the end result will be the upcoming year or two? I guess only time can tell.
But I'm more optimistic and enthusiastic about the 2011 and beyond when it comes to the MMO field than I was the last few years.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't think many mainstream games had an initial cost as high as WoW... And not many are keeping up establishing their niche like EVE or LotRO.
However, we're starting to see some games reaching or surpassing WoW in development cost, such as SW:TOR or even Tera. I couldn't find numbers for FFXIV yet...
It's just that nobody is giving them time to mature properly (sometimes it's the developers/producers fault, sometimes it's the players fault).
This is a good point.
But i have a problem if we arent to expect new games to match 6-7 year old clients then how could we expect anyone to leave those older games and join the new ones?
You're right todays players don't give clients a chance like they did with Eve and WoW.
How are todays devs going to rise above that? people don;t want to wait 1-2 years for a game to complete. They want a reason to leave their game.
I've tried many themepark games and none of them had me so blown away that i wanted to leave WoW same goes with other sandbox games and Eve.
I consider myself a patient gamer and even I refuse to leave Eve and wait for a sub-standard client to "Catch up".
So basically is game over, except for SWTOR nobody is going to invest so much money to a risky adventure. You can refuse to support new games while having eve, but then I hope you like eve a lot, because it is the only thing you are going to be playing for a while.
The second thing is that it is more difficult these time when players are in solid 5+ years mmos. The funny thing is that graphics are pretty much overrated and they had the issue of bothering old computer systems like happen in AoC. So having several years of content in advance is a huge advantage because is not something that the new technology let you to do faster and easier for the most parts.
I agree that is not the duty of the customer to deal with this but still the consequences are basically the eventual monopolization of mmos genres. Is it that a good thing? maybe or maybe not.
Currently, there are two approaches very niche games with low budgets or the last bet by Bioware's SWTOR, If SWTOR doesn't appear like a huge success at least 1million of sustained subscribers, then no investor is going to risk huge amount of their money until wow dies by itself.
The only thing that WoW hasn't been matched on is the number of subs, which says nothing about the quality of the product.
Dude, the fact that it hasnt been matched on the number of subs says EVERYTHING about the quality of the product .
Not at all. It says nothing about quality and everything about pupularity. McDonald's is the most popular restaurant in the world, is it the best? No. Avatar is the most popular film of all time, is it the best? No. Justin Bieber is an extremely popular musician and if he's the best then I never want to hear music again. Popularity has very little to do with quality.
WoW set the bar for: Polished release, system compatibility (ability to play game on any kind of machine), being idiot-proof
Wow release was faaar from polished!
True, but it set the bar in comparison to anything that came before and changed the expectation within the genre. After LoTRO and AION launches were both extremely clean, but it's mainly due to the precedent set by WoW and EQ2.
AoC set the bar for: graphics and animations
Animations? No.
Personally, I've not seen better animations in any other game. Pulling a still-beating heart from my enemy's chest and biting into it...randomly chopping off someone's head...impaling someone on your sword and then using your foot to pry them off... all awesome... but even the basic animations of the characters' hair and breathing when they are standing still were exquisite. But yeah, this is someone opinion-biased.
I agree with the whole point of the post, but just couldn't stop myself from commenting on a few things that are just you opinion....
~Trixx
My comments on your comments above.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
When they start making a new MMO the only thing that should be the same as the old games is that many people can play them at the same time.
We need new thinking not the same game with a new skin.
Lotro was a PVE focused version of WoW. Warhammer was a PVP focused version of WoW, why play any one of them when you could play WoW and get both good PVE and PVP???
Age of Conan had potential, but bad design decisions like making each zone into xxx instances and releasing with broken features such as Castle seiges etc ruined the game for most of us. They had alot more inovation then the Lotro and Warhammer though, the game just dident work proparly...
Aion is a Korean grinder, nobody likes the Rat wheel version of mmos anymore, its repetative and boring, bad design period.
Champions online, Startrek online and other games like them are just to heavy instanced and had to small budgets to realy make an impact
TOR, say they will have STORY? I say that is a cheap way of making people reroll and replay content as they dont look like they have an ENDGAME. This will most probably fail...
So what have we learned?
1. Dont make clone games.
2. Release games that are playable from the start.
3. Come up with something new and fresh
4. Plan your Endgame first because most players will blow thru your content in a mather of months
5. To mush grind with no real reason other then to slow your progression is not FUN!
I don't think many mainstream games had an initial cost as high as WoW... And not many are keeping up establishing their niche like EVE or LotRO.
However, we're starting to see some games reaching or surpassing WoW in development cost, such as SW:TOR or even Tera. I couldn't find numbers for FFXIV yet...
Unfortunately TERA cant even retain its beta testers. Some in my guild are already saying TERA does not "do it" for them --- that theres fundamentally nothing new there, and that the game is all flash and glamour!
SW:TOR looks like WOW in space. Passing on that game.
FFXIV looks promising, if from a character socialization angle.
But to answer the question in this thread: WoW and CCP did not set the bar too high. WoW simply conglomerated the ideas of previous games into one game, and continues to pirate the ideas of the competition as fast as they can come up with them. Im amazed Blizzard hasnt been sued yet for intellectual property rights violations, but Im not an attorney so cant really speak much on that front.
CCP simply did things right. They refused to make a clone game, and got peoples attention because of it. If anything CCP has established that there is a standard to a good video game, and that standard isnt subscription numbers or battlegrounds. The standard is creativity. Unfortunately thats one of the things that is not dished out in abundance, and is not really natural to most managing corporate execs.
Personally, I've not seen better animations in any other game. Pulling a still-beating heart from my enemy's chest and biting into it...randomly chopping off someone's head...impaling someone on your sword and then using your foot to pry them off... all awesome... but even the basic animations of the characters' hair and breathing when they are standing still were exquisite. But yeah, this is someone opinion-biased.
That is one hell of an awesome fatality, yes
One can't help but love the fatalities of the HoX, or some of the fatalities of the other classes.
If you can, you should run AoC on DX10, overall the graphics get even more stunning
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
If anything CCP has established that there is a standard to a good video game, and that standard isnt subscription numbers or battlegrounds. The standard is creativity. Unfortunately thats one of the things that is not dished out in abundance, and is not really natural to most managing corporate execs.
Signed. When corporate execs become the dominant ruling voices, then you can say goodbye to creativity and hello to easy cashable mediocrity and 'sequels milking'
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The only thing that WoW hasn't been matched on is the number of subs, which says nothing about the quality of the product.
Dude, the fact that it hasnt been matched on the number of subs says EVERYTHING about the quality of the product .
Not at all. It says nothing about quality and everything about pupularity. McDonald's is the most popular restaurant in the world, is it the best? No. Avatar is the most popular film of all time, is it the best? No. Justin Bieber is an extremely popular musician and if he's the best then I never want to hear music again. Popularity has very little to do with quality.
You have a good point, but I still disagree with you here. If we focus on the fast-food lovers "market" - yes MC'Donalds is highly popular and probably the best, cheaper than Burger King or whatever else is out there. I dont think Avatar movie is a great comparison in this case. Justin Beiber appeals mostly to 14-17 year old girls, and to them I am pretty sure he IS the best musician he has ever seen.
You are missing a point that to be able to measure the success of something, you also have to consider the market it is intended for. In case of World of Warcraft, it's popular, becuase it meets the quality needs of those individuals that have played / tried / seen it.
WoW set the bar for: Polished release, system compatibility (ability to play game on any kind of machine), being idiot-proof
Wow release was faaar from polished!
True, but it set the bar in comparison to anything that came before and changed the expectation within the genre. After LoTRO and AION launches were both extremely clean, but it's mainly due to the precedent set by WoW and EQ2.
Perhaps here you are right. I have not played many pre-wow games at release dates. So can only comment on how unpolished WoW was...
AoC set the bar for: graphics and animations
Animations? No.
Personally, I've not seen better animations in any other game. Pulling a still-beating heart from my enemy's chest and biting into it...randomly chopping off someone's head...impaling someone on your sword and then using your foot to pry them off... all awesome... but even the basic animations of the characters' hair and breathing when they are standing still were exquisite. But yeah, this is someone opinion-biased.
Point taken . I think I was thinking about some buff animations when I was writing that coment, that havent been at all impressive at the time... But yea I forgot about all the gore and realism... my bad )
I agree with the whole point of the post, but just couldn't stop myself from commenting on a few things that are just you opinion....
CCP simply did things right. They refused to make a clone game, and got peoples attention because of it. If anything CCP has established that there is a standard to a good video game, and that standard isnt subscription numbers or battlegrounds. The standard is creativity. Unfortunately thats one of the things that is not dished out in abundance, and is not really natural to most managing corporate execs.
EVE was released BEFORE WoW - so couldn't even be a clone :=)
Just a edit to you, no flame !
Tbh... to the op... If FFXIV doesn't do it right, we're doomed to wait for WoD or TSW (2012)
the gamer that blizzard appeals to is different than the one CCP apeals too
CCP has a vision and enjoys being niche.
Blizzard has a vision and enjoys catering to morons.
more companies should follow CCP's example and try to go outside the box, and try to make a profit before setting their sights on overtaking blizzard.
Your exactly right..
OP, what you fail to understand is, Blizzard took the best features of EQ and implemented them into WoW... Then they took some key elements in FPS type of games, and implemented them into WoW.. Combining FPS elements such as quick and easy fast paced combat, with classic MMO elements, such as dungones, end game bosses, epic lore, etc, as well as incorpotating their own ideas and moldering them together to create WoW.
WoW is so popular because it's so easy, a 5 year old can play the game.. Out of the 10+ million subscribers to WoW, maybe 10% of those people actually played a MMORPG before WoW... 90% never even knew what a MMORPG was before purchasing WoW...
The problem today is the Devs are working hard trying to recreate a more perfect version of WoW with games like AoC and WAR,,, and well they failed miserably.. AoC went with a FPS type of feel with their combat system, which was a huge mistake in my personal opinion with any MMORPG,,, and the first 20 levels is like a choppy, laggy, poor excuse for a single player RPG.. WAR was like WoW 2.0... Mythic had some nice ideas but they failed to comprehend or implement that one key MMORPG element that every fan of mmorpg's loves the most.... Strong player versus environment content.. The game played like a fast paced rollercoaster ride.. Every area was the same.. You run PQ's, queue yourself in scenerio's, and rinse and repeat until you hit max level.. That concept was ridiculous. Whoever thought we'd enjoy doing those two options over and over again is a moron and should not be in the mmorpg genre...
The reason WoW is still on top is because it is actually a very polished game with lots of content to dive into.. Not only that, but the class system was done well, the game is fun, and can easily become addicting especially if it's your first mmorpg... Also, game companies the last 6 years have actually helped WoW's success by trying to copy WoW with enhancements they felt would draw the moron's to their amusement park, and well they failed because game companies and Dev's nowadays just don't understand how to take an original idea and create their own original concept and make it work in their MMORPG... They just spend hours studying the success of WoW and try copying WoW's easy mode game concept with what they think are enhanced features that will make everyone run to their WoW clone.
This is why WoW is still on top OP...
Rallithon Oakthornn (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
The main problem of most games is that they don't stay true to their niche. If they do, they can keep their whatever playerbase and grow. But they want to grow faster, so they include some WoW-ish features, hoping to appeal to the masses. This is the breaking point: the old niche playerbase will start to despise the game and the devs, prompting a huge ragewar crusade on every known forum in the galaxy. The WoW masses will not want to try a game that looks pretty much like a broken WoW. This is mostly what happened, with much drama, to SWG, but also happens on a minor scale to other games (i.e. see Darkfall now seemingly trying to get more casual-friendly: it can't end well!)
CCP knows that and, though always improving the new player experience with better tutorials, doesn't substantially lower their actual playerbase's expectations (every change has some bitterness with it, but EVE is always a harsh and punishing experience to those not cautious enough)...
CCP simply did things right. They refused to make a clone game, and got peoples attention because of it. If anything CCP has established that there is a standard to a good video game, and that standard isnt subscription numbers or battlegrounds. The standard is creativity. Unfortunately thats one of the things that is not dished out in abundance, and is not really natural to most managing corporate execs.
EVE was released BEFORE WoW - so couldn't even be a clone :=) Just a edit to you, no flame ! Tbh... to the op... If FFXIV doesn't do it right, we're doomed to wait for WoD or TSW (2012)
I didnt say that. Good lord dont edit me man, check yourself! These boards suck because there's always a troll around looking for a way to say that someone is wrong. To be clear: There was no timeline implied or expressed between CCP and WOW. Not to "flame you" or whatever. Im just sayin!
Originally posted by dar_es_balat CCP simply did things right. They refused to make a clone game, and got peoples attention because of it. If anything CCP has established that there is a standard to a good video game, and that standard isnt subscription numbers or battlegrounds. The standard is creativity. Unfortunately thats one of the things that is not dished out in abundance, and is not really natural to most managing corporate execs.
EVE was released BEFORE WoW - so couldn't even be a clone :=) Just a edit to you, no flame ! Tbh... to the op... If FFXIV doesn't do it right, we're doomed to wait for WoD or TSW (2012)
I didnt say that. Good lord dont edit me man, check yourself! These boards suck because there's always a troll around looking for a way to say that someone is wrong. To be clear: There was no timeline implied or expressed between CCP and WOW. Not to "flame you" or whatever. Im just sayin!
I'm no troll.. Read up on what a troll is before using that word.
the gamer that blizzard appeals to is different than the one CCP apeals too
CCP has a vision and enjoys being niche.
Blizzard has a vision and enjoys catering to morons.
more companies should follow CCP's example and try to go outside the box, and try to make a profit before setting their sights on overtaking blizzard.
Your exactly right..
OP, what you fail to understand is, Blizzard took the best features of EQ and implemented them into WoW... Then they took some key elements in FPS type of games, and implemented them into WoW.. Combining FPS elements such as quick and easy fast paced combat, with classic MMO elements, such as dungones, end game bosses, epic lore, etc, as well as incorpotating their own ideas and moldering them together to create WoW.
WoW is so popular because it's so easy, a 5 year old can play the game.. Out of the 10+ million subscribers to WoW, maybe 10% of those people actually played a MMORPG before WoW... 90% never even knew what a MMORPG was before purchasing WoW...
The problem today is the Devs are working hard trying to recreate a more perfect version of WoW with games like AoC and WAR,,, and well they failed miserably.. AoC went with a FPS type of feel with their combat system, which was a huge mistake in my personal opinion with any MMORPG,,, and the first 20 levels is like a choppy, laggy, poor excuse for a single player RPG.. WAR was like WoW 2.0... Mythic had some nice ideas but they failed to comprehend or implement that one key MMORPG element that every fan of mmorpg's loves the most.... Strong player versus environment content.. The game played like a fast paced rollercoaster ride.. Every area was the same.. You run PQ's, queue yourself in scenerio's, and rinse and repeat until you hit max level.. That concept was ridiculous. Whoever thought we'd enjoy doing those two options over and over again is a moron and should not be in the mmorpg genre...
The reason WoW is still on top is because it is actually a very polished game with lots of content to dive into.. Not only that, but the class system was done well, the game is fun, and can easily become addicting especially if it's your first mmorpg... Also, game companies the last 6 years have actually helped WoW's success by trying to copy WoW with enhancements they felt would draw the moron's to their amusement park, and well they failed because game companies and Dev's nowadays just don't understand how to take an original idea and create their own original concept and make it work in their MMORPG... They just spend hours studying the success of WoW and try copying WoW's easy mode game concept with what they think are enhanced features that will make everyone run to their WoW clone.
This is why WoW is still on top OP...
Think you nailed it with this post... could not have put it better myself and I agree totaly with you...
Developers realy need to start making thier own games, All this copy cutting past thing is getting boring and they comunity is punishing them for being lazy..and not willing to take any RISKs... When CCP launched EvE it was a real risk, they took a gamble and it payed off. Blizzard on the other hand polished what had gone before and set there own standard I remeber pointing and clicking in linage2 to make my toon move, the WASD to move and space to jump was a total rewamp of what had gone before. Also it was fun to Explore the game word in WoW each zone felt diffrent and fun. And no game before it had so many Good quests that you could actually Lvl by doing. Before WoW you mostly just found a grind spot and started to slay monsters by the hundreads. Blizzard made alot of changes to the genre lets not forget that...
the gamer that blizzard appeals to is different than the one CCP apeals too
CCP has a vision and enjoys being niche.
Blizzard has a vision and enjoys catering to morons.
more companies should follow CCP's example and try to go outside the box, and try to make a profit before setting their sights on overtaking blizzard.
Your exactly right..
OP, what you fail to understand is, Blizzard took the best features of EQ and implemented them into WoW... Then they took some key elements in FPS type of games, and implemented them into WoW.. Combining FPS elements such as quick and easy fast paced combat, with classic MMO elements, such as dungones, end game bosses, epic lore, etc, as well as incorpotating their own ideas and moldering them together to create WoW.
WoW is so popular because it's so easy, a 5 year old can play the game.. Out of the 10+ million subscribers to WoW, maybe 10% of those people actually played a MMORPG before WoW... 90% never even knew what a MMORPG was before purchasing WoW...
The problem today is the Devs are working hard trying to recreate a more perfect version of WoW with games like AoC and WAR,,, and well they failed miserably.. AoC went with a FPS type of feel with their combat system, which was a huge mistake in my personal opinion with any MMORPG,,, and the first 20 levels is like a choppy, laggy, poor excuse for a single player RPG.. WAR was like WoW 2.0... Mythic had some nice ideas but they failed to comprehend or implement that one key MMORPG element that every fan of mmorpg's loves the most.... Strong player versus environment content.. The game played like a fast paced rollercoaster ride.. Every area was the same.. You run PQ's, queue yourself in scenerio's, and rinse and repeat until you hit max level.. That concept was ridiculous. Whoever thought we'd enjoy doing those two options over and over again is a moron and should not be in the mmorpg genre...
The reason WoW is still on top is because it is actually a very polished game with lots of content to dive into.. Not only that, but the class system was done well, the game is fun, and can easily become addicting especially if it's your first mmorpg... Also, game companies the last 6 years have actually helped WoW's success by trying to copy WoW with enhancements they felt would draw the moron's to their amusement park, and well they failed because game companies and Dev's nowadays just don't understand how to take an original idea and create their own original concept and make it work in their MMORPG... They just spend hours studying the success of WoW and try copying WoW's easy mode game concept with what they think are enhanced features that will make everyone run to their WoW clone.
This is why WoW is still on top OP...
Think you nailed it with this post... could not have put it better myself and I agree totaly with you...
Developers realy need to start making thier own games, All this copy cutting past thing is getting boring and they comunity is punishing them for being lazy..and not willing to take any RISKs... When CCP launched EvE it was a real risk, they took a gamble and it payed off. Blizzard on the other hand polished what had gone before and set there own standard I remeber pointing and clicking in linage2 to make my toon move, the WASD to move and space to jump was a total rewamp of what had gone before. Also it was fun to Explore the game word in WoW each zone felt diffrent and fun. And no game before it had so many Good quests that you could actually Lvl by doing. Before WoW you mostly just found a grind spot and started to slay monsters by the hundreads. Blizzard made alot of changes to the genre lets not forget that...
Don't forget that Blizzard has a huge advantage over the clone games in that they can watch the market for new and innovative ideas and patch them into WoW before other games even hit release date.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
TO OP: ok first off there are a great many players (myself included) who dont even like WoW. I have played indy MMO's that I feel are much better than WoW could dream of being. Now, to start a business and make a great living at it does not REQUIRE you to become the walmart of MMO's. Indy developer do not have to make as much money as billizard to successful, they do however have to worry about losing player bases to the McMMO which I honestly do not see ever happening in my case. I would go back to single player games before I played a cartoon MMO again
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
One thing is painfully clear. SWG was never on the same level as EVE. Ever. (And I loved SWG until publish 9)
Another thing to keep in mind about politicians speaking publically, TV news, newspapers, magazines, preachers sermons or anything that targets a broad spectrum of the public. They all have 1 thing in common. Any medium of communication to the public almost always targets the 6th grade level of reading and comprehension. This is not to say some target older or younger audiences. But the level of understanding is at that level.
WoW does that no differently. The game targets a broad spectrum of players and gives the game to them at a low comprehension level. This is why you can see 5 year olds playing in many parts of the game without issue. Or housewives that thought looting was a criminal activity during natural disasters. Or even lawyers and doctors that want an escape a few hours a week that doesn't require thought. Or even the hardcore esports player that has that drive to top the arena charts.
EVE set the bar high very purposefully. They wanted to create something of very high quality that appealed to some but not all. They would love all, but they recognized that they cant make everyone happy so they focused on those they could please.
Blizzard designed WoW to be accessible to non-gamers. Easy to understand mechanics and progression.
CCP designed EVE to be a deeply involved player driven world.
Guys/Gals im well aware that we have people on this forum that don't like WoW & EvE.
I'm also aware that certain games do certain features better than both those games.
With that said when a new game releases for either sub genre what games are they stacked up against? Eve & WoW.
Why? Because they are simply the best mmos out today both in overall Quality and Sub wise in their genres.
A few of you may disagree but the reality is your the minority and the majority have already spoken Eve has more than ten times the subs of the next sandbox title and WOW... Do i need to remind you guys?
Before you guys bring up mcdonalds or brittney spears both games are critically acclaimed, WoW has crazy review scores and Eves won game of the year what five times in the last 7 years between mmorpg.com and massively? and its constantly being featured.
As I see it the entire two sub genres need to do something because they are already behind in the game on release day.
Its almost no contest already.
What makes matters worth both games are still in full developement mode with a great deal of cash backing them. Imagine if WoW actually fleshes out pvp more? imagine if Eve improves its Pve and adds more crazy shit with incarna?
Before you guys bring up mcdonalds or brittney spears both games are critically acclaimed, WoW has crazy review scores and Eves won game of the year what five times in the last 7 years between mmorpg.com and massively? and its constantly being featured.
As I see it the entire two sub genres need to do something because they are already behind in the game on release day.
Its almost no contest already.
What makes matters worth both games are still in full developement mode with a great deal of cash backing them. Imagine if WoW actually fleshes out pvp more? imagine if Eve improves its Pve and adds more crazy shit with incarna?
Might as well Rename the genres Eve and Wow.
Wow! Talk about hyperbolic arguments! Nice job to evoke reactions and keep the thread going
Let's not prematurely rename the genre EVE and WOW, it's... wrong, on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin.
I think after a few years we'll look back and think how silly we were thinking that EVE and WoW were the be all and end all of MMO gaming and that everything would be like that up till 2015 and longer.
Sandbox, themepark, that's old-gen talk, for those who lack the imagination to believe anything else is possible. Gaming and games are in a constant process of evolution, and that's what will also happen with MMO's: we'll see new, next gen MMO's and gameplay mechanics arise that we'd never have thought of now, and that not over 10 years or more. No, It'll be within the next few years. One thing is for sure: the MMO landscape in 2013-2014 will look very different from what it is now.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't think they set the bar too high, but I do think they raised the standards. Gone are the days of half finished game content wise. People these days won't tolerate games that launch with only lvl 1-30 content, while lacking severely in the 30-max level content. WAR, AOC, etc.. are examples of games that launched with fairly good amount of content for the first half of the levels. But they severely lacked endgame content, and whatever endgame content they had during the first 6 months were very unpolished, untested, and overall buggy as heck.
The endgame content were simply not fun, not itemized properly, and you could tell they didn't spend a lot of time testing them. People these days don't have the patience to wait for companies to fix, patch, tweak, polish, and finish content after launch. You either release them ready to go, or you see a 70-80% sub dropoff after a couple of months.
Also gone are the days of people not caring about quality, content, and gameplay because they were wow'ed by 3D MMORPG's. People used to get so "oooh ahhh" caught up with these 3D MMO's back in the days. Many played just so they could run around and pretty much do nothing or accomplish nothing. Those days were gone since the early 2000's. These days people expect quality, content, and they do care about the gameplay. You have lag in combat, you have hitching while zoning, you have missing armor graphics, you have lack of quests, you have lack of dungeons, lack of raids, etc.. people are not going to like your game.
So set the bar too high? No, but raised the bar on standards, yes. People simply expect more today than we did 5-10 years ago. I guess this does make it more difficult for companies to release games because they can no longer rush a game out and expect people to stick around while they collect your monthly & fix the game up.
Comments
I do agree with you Ihmotepp on that more developers should aim for niche markets and give us more varied games rather then whole "one game to rule them all" approach.
However with the costs of creating MMOs skyrocketing and the expectations for polish and performance and content and a lack of bugs etc. as high as it is, you have to match your budget and reach and subscriber base to the amount of money you put into making and then maintaining the game.
You can't make a game for a 50k niche audience if it's going to cost you 100 million dollars to make that game and support it up to the standards we the masses expect.
Unless you are self published and extremely wealthy and don't have to deal with publishers and financing.
But if you have that kind of money and power you probably aren't in the video game business.
Interesting OP. I don't think those two games set the bar too high, but they certainly modified expectations of players of what a sandbox MMO or a casual/theme park/easy accessible MMO should have.
Of course new MMO's will have a hard time having the amount of content and polish that MMO's like WoW and EVE Online have with already 5 or more years under their belt. So there will be players who found their game experience lacking when they were looking for 'another WoW' or 'another EVE'
But there are a few phenomenons that can counter this rigid state of MMO being:
- (most) people grow bored of constantly the same, that's not fun. People want their entertainment to be varying and exciting, so they will look for something else after a while. Even if MMO's have the longest durability of games, there's an end to the lifecycle, many people will grow tired of playing only WoW or EVE Online, and will either stop or vary playing those two games with other MMO's.
- new MMO's will have features and technology that older MMO's haven't: some things WoW could implement as well in a later patch, but other things will be too far from its own gameplay to be successfully implemented. As the last 20 years have shown when it comes to technology and hi tech entertainment, the newest things coming into the market will draw eyes automatically.
- other MMO's are getting better as well: what was good for EVE Online will be good for other MMO's as well, namely a few more years that can give a MMO enough badly needed polish or content to become interesting to some, who ignored those MMO's before. Examples as Lotro, EQ2 or AoC.
- Looking at what will be released the next few years, there are some pretty interesting MMO's coming up: GW2, TSW, WoD, TERA, FFXIV, SW ToR among others, those will maybe not radically alter the theatre of MMO's, but can offer enough of an alternative for a lot of players who were already looking for something fresh and different. Something new. And yes, I know that this has been said before and that it didn't happen back then, and some of those upcoming titles will certainly fall short from expectations. But still, some of these newer batch have the potential to be gamechangers in one way or the other.
What the end result will be the upcoming year or two? I guess only time can tell.
But I'm more optimistic and enthusiastic about the 2011 and beyond when it comes to the MMO field than I was the last few years.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't think many mainstream games had an initial cost as high as WoW... And not many are keeping up establishing their niche like EVE or LotRO.
However, we're starting to see some games reaching or surpassing WoW in development cost, such as SW:TOR or even Tera. I couldn't find numbers for FFXIV yet...
So basically is game over, except for SWTOR nobody is going to invest so much money to a risky adventure. You can refuse to support new games while having eve, but then I hope you like eve a lot, because it is the only thing you are going to be playing for a while.
The second thing is that it is more difficult these time when players are in solid 5+ years mmos. The funny thing is that graphics are pretty much overrated and they had the issue of bothering old computer systems like happen in AoC. So having several years of content in advance is a huge advantage because is not something that the new technology let you to do faster and easier for the most parts.
I agree that is not the duty of the customer to deal with this but still the consequences are basically the eventual monopolization of mmos genres. Is it that a good thing? maybe or maybe not.
Currently, there are two approaches very niche games with low budgets or the last bet by Bioware's SWTOR, If SWTOR doesn't appear like a huge success at least 1million of sustained subscribers, then no investor is going to risk huge amount of their money until wow dies by itself.
My comments on your comments above.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I have to agree that on character animations nothing has come close to WoW in enjoyment of watching my character perform combat actions.
When they start making a new MMO the only thing that should be the same as the old games is that many people can play them at the same time.
We need new thinking not the same game with a new skin.
Lotro was a PVE focused version of WoW. Warhammer was a PVP focused version of WoW, why play any one of them when you could play WoW and get both good PVE and PVP???
Age of Conan had potential, but bad design decisions like making each zone into xxx instances and releasing with broken features such as Castle seiges etc ruined the game for most of us. They had alot more inovation then the Lotro and Warhammer though, the game just dident work proparly...
Aion is a Korean grinder, nobody likes the Rat wheel version of mmos anymore, its repetative and boring, bad design period.
Champions online, Startrek online and other games like them are just to heavy instanced and had to small budgets to realy make an impact
TOR, say they will have STORY? I say that is a cheap way of making people reroll and replay content as they dont look like they have an ENDGAME. This will most probably fail...
So what have we learned?
1. Dont make clone games.
2. Release games that are playable from the start.
3. Come up with something new and fresh
4. Plan your Endgame first because most players will blow thru your content in a mather of months
5. To mush grind with no real reason other then to slow your progression is not FUN!
why bother with endgame at all? let people have fun right from the start. drop exponential progression. give proper choices and diversity of gameplay.
Unfortunately TERA cant even retain its beta testers. Some in my guild are already saying TERA does not "do it" for them --- that theres fundamentally nothing new there, and that the game is all flash and glamour!
SW:TOR looks like WOW in space. Passing on that game.
FFXIV looks promising, if from a character socialization angle.
But to answer the question in this thread: WoW and CCP did not set the bar too high. WoW simply conglomerated the ideas of previous games into one game, and continues to pirate the ideas of the competition as fast as they can come up with them. Im amazed Blizzard hasnt been sued yet for intellectual property rights violations, but Im not an attorney so cant really speak much on that front.
CCP simply did things right. They refused to make a clone game, and got peoples attention because of it. If anything CCP has established that there is a standard to a good video game, and that standard isnt subscription numbers or battlegrounds. The standard is creativity. Unfortunately thats one of the things that is not dished out in abundance, and is not really natural to most managing corporate execs.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
That is one hell of an awesome fatality, yes
One can't help but love the fatalities of the HoX, or some of the fatalities of the other classes.
If you can, you should run AoC on DX10, overall the graphics get even more stunning
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Signed. When corporate execs become the dominant ruling voices, then you can say goodbye to creativity and hello to easy cashable mediocrity and 'sequels milking'
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
In Green
~Awesome Tr!x
EVE was released BEFORE WoW - so couldn't even be a clone :=)Just a edit to you, no flame !
Tbh... to the op... If FFXIV doesn't do it right, we're doomed to wait for WoD or TSW (2012)
Your exactly right..
OP, what you fail to understand is, Blizzard took the best features of EQ and implemented them into WoW... Then they took some key elements in FPS type of games, and implemented them into WoW.. Combining FPS elements such as quick and easy fast paced combat, with classic MMO elements, such as dungones, end game bosses, epic lore, etc, as well as incorpotating their own ideas and moldering them together to create WoW.
WoW is so popular because it's so easy, a 5 year old can play the game.. Out of the 10+ million subscribers to WoW, maybe 10% of those people actually played a MMORPG before WoW... 90% never even knew what a MMORPG was before purchasing WoW...
The problem today is the Devs are working hard trying to recreate a more perfect version of WoW with games like AoC and WAR,,, and well they failed miserably.. AoC went with a FPS type of feel with their combat system, which was a huge mistake in my personal opinion with any MMORPG,,, and the first 20 levels is like a choppy, laggy, poor excuse for a single player RPG.. WAR was like WoW 2.0... Mythic had some nice ideas but they failed to comprehend or implement that one key MMORPG element that every fan of mmorpg's loves the most.... Strong player versus environment content.. The game played like a fast paced rollercoaster ride.. Every area was the same.. You run PQ's, queue yourself in scenerio's, and rinse and repeat until you hit max level.. That concept was ridiculous. Whoever thought we'd enjoy doing those two options over and over again is a moron and should not be in the mmorpg genre...
The reason WoW is still on top is because it is actually a very polished game with lots of content to dive into.. Not only that, but the class system was done well, the game is fun, and can easily become addicting especially if it's your first mmorpg... Also, game companies the last 6 years have actually helped WoW's success by trying to copy WoW with enhancements they felt would draw the moron's to their amusement park, and well they failed because game companies and Dev's nowadays just don't understand how to take an original idea and create their own original concept and make it work in their MMORPG... They just spend hours studying the success of WoW and try copying WoW's easy mode game concept with what they think are enhanced features that will make everyone run to their WoW clone.
This is why WoW is still on top OP...
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
LoL@CCP setting the bar too high
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
The main problem of most games is that they don't stay true to their niche. If they do, they can keep their whatever playerbase and grow. But they want to grow faster, so they include some WoW-ish features, hoping to appeal to the masses. This is the breaking point: the old niche playerbase will start to despise the game and the devs, prompting a huge ragewar crusade on every known forum in the galaxy. The WoW masses will not want to try a game that looks pretty much like a broken WoW. This is mostly what happened, with much drama, to SWG, but also happens on a minor scale to other games (i.e. see Darkfall now seemingly trying to get more casual-friendly: it can't end well!)
CCP knows that and, though always improving the new player experience with better tutorials, doesn't substantially lower their actual playerbase's expectations (every change has some bitterness with it, but EVE is always a harsh and punishing experience to those not cautious enough)...
I didnt say that. Good lord dont edit me man, check yourself! These boards suck because there's always a troll around looking for a way to say that someone is wrong. To be clear: There was no timeline implied or expressed between CCP and WOW. Not to "flame you" or whatever. Im just sayin!
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
EVE was released BEFORE WoW - so couldn't even be a clone :=) Just a edit to you, no flame ! Tbh... to the op... If FFXIV doesn't do it right, we're doomed to wait for WoD or TSW (2012)I didnt say that. Good lord dont edit me man, check yourself! These boards suck because there's always a troll around looking for a way to say that someone is wrong. To be clear: There was no timeline implied or expressed between CCP and WOW. Not to "flame you" or whatever. Im just sayin!
I'm no troll.. Read up on what a troll is before using that word.Think you nailed it with this post... could not have put it better myself and I agree totaly with you...
Developers realy need to start making thier own games, All this copy cutting past thing is getting boring and they comunity is punishing them for being lazy..and not willing to take any RISKs... When CCP launched EvE it was a real risk, they took a gamble and it payed off. Blizzard on the other hand polished what had gone before and set there own standard I remeber pointing and clicking in linage2 to make my toon move, the WASD to move and space to jump was a total rewamp of what had gone before. Also it was fun to Explore the game word in WoW each zone felt diffrent and fun. And no game before it had so many Good quests that you could actually Lvl by doing. Before WoW you mostly just found a grind spot and started to slay monsters by the hundreads. Blizzard made alot of changes to the genre lets not forget that...
Don't forget that Blizzard has a huge advantage over the clone games in that they can watch the market for new and innovative ideas and patch them into WoW before other games even hit release date.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
TO OP: ok first off there are a great many players (myself included) who dont even like WoW. I have played indy MMO's that I feel are much better than WoW could dream of being. Now, to start a business and make a great living at it does not REQUIRE you to become the walmart of MMO's. Indy developer do not have to make as much money as billizard to successful, they do however have to worry about losing player bases to the McMMO which I honestly do not see ever happening in my case. I would go back to single player games before I played a cartoon MMO again
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
There is much to say on this topic.
One thing is painfully clear. SWG was never on the same level as EVE. Ever. (And I loved SWG until publish 9)
Another thing to keep in mind about politicians speaking publically, TV news, newspapers, magazines, preachers sermons or anything that targets a broad spectrum of the public. They all have 1 thing in common. Any medium of communication to the public almost always targets the 6th grade level of reading and comprehension. This is not to say some target older or younger audiences. But the level of understanding is at that level.
WoW does that no differently. The game targets a broad spectrum of players and gives the game to them at a low comprehension level. This is why you can see 5 year olds playing in many parts of the game without issue. Or housewives that thought looting was a criminal activity during natural disasters. Or even lawyers and doctors that want an escape a few hours a week that doesn't require thought. Or even the hardcore esports player that has that drive to top the arena charts.
EVE set the bar high very purposefully. They wanted to create something of very high quality that appealed to some but not all. They would love all, but they recognized that they cant make everyone happy so they focused on those they could please.
Blizzard designed WoW to be accessible to non-gamers. Easy to understand mechanics and progression.
CCP designed EVE to be a deeply involved player driven world.
Guys/Gals im well aware that we have people on this forum that don't like WoW & EvE.
I'm also aware that certain games do certain features better than both those games.
With that said when a new game releases for either sub genre what games are they stacked up against? Eve & WoW.
Why? Because they are simply the best mmos out today both in overall Quality and Sub wise in their genres.
A few of you may disagree but the reality is your the minority and the majority have already spoken Eve has more than ten times the subs of the next sandbox title and WOW... Do i need to remind you guys?
Before you guys bring up mcdonalds or brittney spears both games are critically acclaimed, WoW has crazy review scores and Eves won game of the year what five times in the last 7 years between mmorpg.com and massively? and its constantly being featured.
As I see it the entire two sub genres need to do something because they are already behind in the game on release day.
Its almost no contest already.
What makes matters worth both games are still in full developement mode with a great deal of cash backing them. Imagine if WoW actually fleshes out pvp more? imagine if Eve improves its Pve and adds more crazy shit with incarna?
Might as well Rename the genres Eve and Wow.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Wow! Talk about hyperbolic arguments! Nice job to evoke reactions and keep the thread going
Let's not prematurely rename the genre EVE and WOW, it's... wrong, on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin.
I think after a few years we'll look back and think how silly we were thinking that EVE and WoW were the be all and end all of MMO gaming and that everything would be like that up till 2015 and longer.
Sandbox, themepark, that's old-gen talk, for those who lack the imagination to believe anything else is possible. Gaming and games are in a constant process of evolution, and that's what will also happen with MMO's: we'll see new, next gen MMO's and gameplay mechanics arise that we'd never have thought of now, and that not over 10 years or more. No, It'll be within the next few years. One thing is for sure: the MMO landscape in 2013-2014 will look very different from what it is now.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't think they set the bar too high, but I do think they raised the standards. Gone are the days of half finished game content wise. People these days won't tolerate games that launch with only lvl 1-30 content, while lacking severely in the 30-max level content. WAR, AOC, etc.. are examples of games that launched with fairly good amount of content for the first half of the levels. But they severely lacked endgame content, and whatever endgame content they had during the first 6 months were very unpolished, untested, and overall buggy as heck.
The endgame content were simply not fun, not itemized properly, and you could tell they didn't spend a lot of time testing them. People these days don't have the patience to wait for companies to fix, patch, tweak, polish, and finish content after launch. You either release them ready to go, or you see a 70-80% sub dropoff after a couple of months.
Also gone are the days of people not caring about quality, content, and gameplay because they were wow'ed by 3D MMORPG's. People used to get so "oooh ahhh" caught up with these 3D MMO's back in the days. Many played just so they could run around and pretty much do nothing or accomplish nothing. Those days were gone since the early 2000's. These days people expect quality, content, and they do care about the gameplay. You have lag in combat, you have hitching while zoning, you have missing armor graphics, you have lack of quests, you have lack of dungeons, lack of raids, etc.. people are not going to like your game.
So set the bar too high? No, but raised the bar on standards, yes. People simply expect more today than we did 5-10 years ago. I guess this does make it more difficult for companies to release games because they can no longer rush a game out and expect people to stick around while they collect your monthly & fix the game up.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO