Hell yes. No sane person would fall of a cliff in real life,
It happens in real life. People fall out of planes, off tall buildings, etc. If you are running along a narrow path beside a steep drop, the fear of falling makes it more exciting. If you can't fall, you might as well be running on flat ground.
and because in game there's no severe consequences for doing so,
AH, but that is a design choice. I'm fine with have a real penalty for falling. More danger = more excitement.
only by taking away the possibility to fall of a cliff you can make it realistic. Otherwise every player would be doing unrealistic things, such as jumping off a cliff.
Realize that realism works in many ways.
And don't worry, I can see it myself. Criticism is good. Great debates ensue from that.
I think you may have misread what I said. Perhaps I should have said "less objective" rather than "less critical".
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Nobody cares though. You didn't need to jump in MGS. Negative that is irrelevant is something I would say is not worth mentioning at all.
Never played it. No jumping? In a real world setting? That's a flaw, for sure.
Didn't need that feature. Would have been useless to implement it. Flaw? Just like when game X doesn't have feature Y which is completely meaningless, that is a flaw to you?
There you go, getting all irrational.
Oh, you're saying that's not what people think? Hopefully you have an explanation, because that sounds illogical.
Voice acting.
Resources were limited for WoW, too.
Aye. Some people want the game to have voice acting And jumping. Eat the cake or have the cake. Not both. If you got the short stick this time and the devs didn't choose jumping over VA, do cry more. Ain't gonna help though (or prove your point).
"Surprisingly" WoW didn't do much in terms of innovation, just copied everything from other companies and made it better, and succeeded.
Too bad if you want innovation, you can't do it the WoW way. I'm sorry that SE aims for innovation.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
It happens in real life. People fall out of planes, off tall buildings, etc. If you are running along a narrow path beside a steep drop, the fear of falling makes it more exciting. If you can't fall, you might as well be running on flat ground.
Not on Purpose.
AH, but that is a design choice. I'm fine with have a real penalty for falling. More danger = more excitement.
Ah, then let's make it realistic. If you fall, you die and can't play ever again.
Or if you're Hindu, you can make a new character and start from the beginning.
I think you may have misread what I said. Perhaps I should have said "less objective" rather than "less critical".
Well, that goes for you too. I'd actually prefer if we kept the personal insults to ourselves, if we don't have anything to back up our statements with, though. Otherwise this will end very quickly.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Aye. Some people want the game to have voice acting And jumping. Eat the cake or have the cake. Not both. If you got the short stick this time and the devs didn't choose jumping over VA, do cry more. Ain't gonna help though (or prove your point).
"Surprisingly" WoW didn't do much in terms of innovation, just copied everything from other companies and made it better, and succeeded.
Too bad if you want innovation, you can't do it the WoW way. I'm sorry that SE aims for innovation.
"do cry more. Ain't gonna help though (or prove your point)."
Seriously, you are making the same type of emotional defenses that are being thrown at your criticisms of SWTOR. Can't you see that?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Seriously, you are making the same type of emotional defenses that are being thrown at your criticisms of SWTOR. Can't you see that?
Hey, I'm not the one wishing for SE to dump VA for jumping here. What is that if not pure, distilled complaining with no other meaning? I'm sorry for picking such harsh words though, if they really distracted you from my point.
Or what point were you trying to make there?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Guildleve quests are not the only quests you'll be doing. There'll be a wide variety of quests with cutscenes, but those may not be related to the leves at all. They are also not relevant to the testing, so they have been removed (for the most part) in order to save the space.
Where or when was this stated?
"I will Turn your name into a synonym for weakness"
Guildleve quests are not the only quests you'll be doing. There'll be a wide variety of quests with cutscenes, but those may not be related to the leves at all. They are also not relevant to the testing, so they have been removed (for the most part) in order to save the space.
Where or when was this stated?
Oh, it hasn't been stated anywhere... officially .
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Hey, I'm not the one wishing for SE to dump VA for jumping here.
Which is more 'gameplay', being able to jump and swim - or listening to voice acting?
What is that if not pure, distilled complaining with no other meaning? I'm sorry for picking such harsh words though, if they really distracted you from my point.
Or what point were you trying to make there?
My point is that you are not being objective when discussing this particular game. Just as those defending your criticisms of SWTOR are not. You are acting like they are.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Which is more 'gameplay', being able to jump and swim - or listening to voice acting?
Gameplay isn't everything. Of course you are entitled to your opinion that in this case, jumping as a gameplay element is more important than VA as an immersion element, but really, that is only your opinion. It does not do anything to explain why there should be jumping over VA, except that you think so. Which is not enough. The devs think that VA is more important than jumping. What can you say to prove that their opinion is the wrong one?
My point is that you are not being objective when discussing this particular game. Just as those defending your criticisms of SWTOR are not. You are acting like they are.
Alright, but if you want me to agree, some proof would be preferred. I mean, constructive criticism is good but it's not constructive if the one being criticised doesn't know what he did wrong. Assuming I am not objective, that is. Without examples it's hard to agree, which I hope you understand.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
My point is that you are not being objective when discussing this particular game. Just as those defending your criticisms of SWTOR are not. You are acting like they are.
No one is ever objective, most people who call out fanboys or 'criticisms' on another games forums are fans of some other game, be it in the past or present or future and their opinions are affected by previous preferences.
That said, I don't see the time&money constraints justifiying invisible walls either, you have to put those walls there after all, would it be faster to implement a fall damage system or to put invisible walls on each ledge?
'Design choice' is another response, though you can then wonder why they make this choice.
I hope there will be a good deal of VO in FFXIV, it's something I missed in the previous installment.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Guildleve quests are not the only quests you'll be doing. There'll be a wide variety of quests with cutscenes, but those may not be related to the leves at all. They are also not relevant to the testing, so they have been removed (for the most part) in order to save the space.
Where or when was this stated?
The guild leves are repeatable quests designed for levelling and giving people objectives instead of having to grind all the time... they're like an advanced version of the Fields of Valour system in FFXI.
The fact that the game has storyline missions means that there has to be quest/mission based content outside the guild leve system.
That said, I don't see the time&money constraints justifiying invisible walls either, you have to put those walls there after all, would it be faster to implement a fall damage system or to put invisible walls on each ledge?
'Design choice' is another response, though you can then wonder why they make this choice.
I hope there will be a good deal of VO in FFXIV, it's something I missed in the previous installment.
Okay, let me explain a possible scenario.
FFXI's engine had these invisible walls (PS2 limitations, design choice, I dunno) and once they started creating XIV they had two options- use the same core (updated of course) which would save a lot of money and time to be used elsewhere, or create a new one from the scratch so that possible limitations of the previous engine could be overcome.
As we see now their choice was to put the time and money elsewhere. This, I assume, allowed them to start creating the world much faster since they had the basics already, and everyone was familiar with the engine. This in turn allowed them to focus on other features of the game much sooner.
I'm not sure exactly what they did, since supposedly XIV is using the crystal tools (same as XIII), but looking at the technical side, XIV seems to be much similar to XI, and not XIII. Which makes me think it is some kind of a hybrid engine, and that crystal tools itself is not enough for an MMO.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
FFXI's engine had these invisible walls (PS2 limitations, design choice, I dunno) and once they started creating XIV they had two options- use the same core (updated of course) which would save a lot of money and time to be used elsewhere, or create a new one from the scratch so that possible limitations of the previous engine could be overcome.
or - license someone else's engine.
As we see now their choice was to put the time and money elsewhere. This, I assume, allowed them to start creating the world much faster since they had the basics already, and everyone was familiar with the engine. This in turn allowed them to focus on other features of the game much sooner.
Saving time and money - the formula used by recent unsuccessful MMOs.
You see, aside from the believablitiy issue - having no jumping, falling, or swimming in your game also limits the gameplay options you can use.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Well, that's the third option. Just like with XIII, I'd think they figured their own engine would work better for the cause. Either way, they thought it through and this is the outcome.
Saving time and money - the formula used by recent unsuccessful MMOs.
Who said anything about solely saving time and money? Please stop putting words in my mouth.
I am getting annoyed that you take words out of my sentences to completely change their meaning.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Who said anything about solely saving time and money? Please stop putting words in my mouth.
I am getting annoyed that you take words out of my sentences to completely change their meaning.
"This, I assume, allowed them to start creating the world much faster since they had the basics already, and everyone was familiar with the engine. This in turn allowed them to focus on other features of the game much sooner. "
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Who said anything about solely saving time and money? Please stop putting words in my mouth.
I am getting annoyed that you take words out of my sentences to completely change their meaning.
"This, I assume, allowed them to start creating the world much faster since they had the basics already, and everyone was familiar with the engine. This in turn allowed them to focus on other features of the game much sooner. "
And how did you somehow change the meaning of what I said to be a bad thing?
"Saving time and money" is bad thing. "Saving time and money to put them elsewhere" is NOT necessarily a bad thing, nor is it something unsuccessful gaming companies do. They just leave out the "put them elsewhere" part.
If you were just lazy to quote the whole sentence, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Invisible fences to keep people from falling over sounds a bit... silly. I mean even Blizzard would think that is a bit to far with doing things easy.
Agreed. Invisible walls are a reminder that you are in a game - not a world. It hurts immersion. An MMORPG needs to be a world.
Isn't this 2010? How are we supposed to take serisously an MMO engine that doesn't allow jumping, falling, and swimming?
In most game you rarely see someone take stairs down. People just jump down ledges because it's faster and they barely take any damage. Just take the blimp in WoW and look at how many people jump to the ground at arrival instead of going down the tower. This hurts immersion a lot more.
When you can have the cake and eat it too, let me know.
You should have stuck to your "gameplay decision" argument, it made more sense. I doubt that SE is on such a tight budget. They can afford both. My hunch is that by having invisible walls you just made collision detection a lot easier.
"There's no angels that can fly, or jedi's. "
Really? Of course Moogles aren't called angels but...
When you can have the cake and eat it too, let me know.
You should have stuck to your "gameplay decision" argument, it made more sense. I doubt that SE is on such a tight budget. They can afford both. My hunch is that by having invisible walls you just made collision detection a lot easier.
Hey if you have the money, who cares about collision detection... just hire more devs if it's a problem.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
In most game you rarely see someone take stairs down. People just jump down ledges because it's faster and they barely take any damage. Just take the blimp in WoW and look at how many people jump to the ground at arrival instead of going down the tower. This hurts immersion a lot more.
Taking too little damage from falling (and you can die from falling in the game, BTW) is an issue easily fixed. Just have it do more damage.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Saving time and money - the formula used by recent unsuccessful MMOs.
You see, aside from the believablitiy issue - having no jumping, falling, or swimming in your game also limits the gameplay options you can use.
Limiting the gameplay options you can use is not wholly a bad thing.
Consider Portal.
Portal could have used a character creation system where you design your character from scratch, customizing not just your appearance but also your running speed, hit points, computer skills, and intelligence (automatically getting hints on difficult rooms).
Portal could have included a good/evil morality mechanic, where you become more good if you sneak around the nice turrets and more evil if you disable them. You would then unlock good or evil powers as you progress through the game.
Portal could have allowed you to gain speed and make longer jumps by running in a straight line for several seconds, but then limit that ability by making you rest to regain endurance after using it too often.
Portal could have given you a 'search' option and increased the difficulty by making obstacles that could not be overcome until you've searched high and low and eventually uncovered a hidden switch, passage, or item.
Needless to say, Portal included none of these gameplay options and that is a large part of the reason why its in so many gamers' Top Ten lists. These were not left out to save time or money, or because Valve was too lazy to include them. It was a design choice to keep the gameplay focused. You don't have the option to do these things because they're not what Valve wanted people to do in the game. They wanted the main focus to be on the puzzle solving aspect. Walk into a room, here's what you have to work with, figure it out, feel clever, and move on. Anything more than that such as an inventory system or customizable skills would have detracted from the game.
It's a stretch to say that being able to swim in a game or cliffdive in a game detracts from all the other elements that the game ought to be focusing on, but I don't think that's a completely wrong thing to say. Even if the time and cost to implement and test a feature is negligible, the very presence of the feature has just as much potential to diminish the game as to improve it.
When you can have the cake and eat it too, let me know.
You should have stuck to your "gameplay decision" argument, it made more sense. I doubt that SE is on such a tight budget. They can afford both. My hunch is that by having invisible walls you just made collision detection a lot easier.
Hey if you have the money, who cares about collision detection... just hire more devs if it's a problem.
Why waste your profit on something you don't need? If they needed it they could easily have budgeted for it. Not a money decision but a gameplay decision.
Why waste your profit on something you don't need? If they needed it they could easily have budgeted for it. Not a money decision but a gameplay decision.
Yes, it all comes down to profit/effort. The devs get as much money as the producers think is enough, and that's what the devs have to deal with. They can always suggest that with more money they could turn in more profit, but like in life begging for money ain't too easy.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Why waste your profit on something you don't need? If they needed it they could easily have budgeted for it. Not a money decision but a gameplay decision.
Because it is important to some of your potential customers.
Why have a crafting system?
Why have a guild system?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Comments
I think you may have misread what I said. Perhaps I should have said "less objective" rather than "less critical".
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
"do cry more. Ain't gonna help though (or prove your point)."
Seriously, you are making the same type of emotional defenses that are being thrown at your criticisms of SWTOR. Can't you see that?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Hey, I'm not the one wishing for SE to dump VA for jumping here. What is that if not pure, distilled complaining with no other meaning? I'm sorry for picking such harsh words though, if they really distracted you from my point.
Or what point were you trying to make there?
Where or when was this stated?
"I will Turn your name into a synonym for weakness"
Oh, it hasn't been stated anywhere... officially
.
My point is that you are not being objective when discussing this particular game. Just as those defending your criticisms of SWTOR are not. You are acting like they are.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
No one is ever objective, most people who call out fanboys or 'criticisms' on another games forums are fans of some other game, be it in the past or present or future and their opinions are affected by previous preferences.
That said, I don't see the time&money constraints justifiying invisible walls either, you have to put those walls there after all, would it be faster to implement a fall damage system or to put invisible walls on each ledge?
'Design choice' is another response, though you can then wonder why they make this choice.
I hope there will be a good deal of VO in FFXIV, it's something I missed in the previous installment.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
The guild leves are repeatable quests designed for levelling and giving people objectives instead of having to grind all the time... they're like an advanced version of the Fields of Valour system in FFXI.
The fact that the game has storyline missions means that there has to be quest/mission based content outside the guild leve system.
Okay, let me explain a possible scenario.
FFXI's engine had these invisible walls (PS2 limitations, design choice, I dunno) and once they started creating XIV they had two options- use the same core (updated of course) which would save a lot of money and time to be used elsewhere, or create a new one from the scratch so that possible limitations of the previous engine could be overcome.
As we see now their choice was to put the time and money elsewhere. This, I assume, allowed them to start creating the world much faster since they had the basics already, and everyone was familiar with the engine. This in turn allowed them to focus on other features of the game much sooner.
I'm not sure exactly what they did, since supposedly XIV is using the crystal tools (same as XIII), but looking at the technical side, XIV seems to be much similar to XI, and not XIII. Which makes me think it is some kind of a hybrid engine, and that crystal tools itself is not enough for an MMO.
Saving time and money - the formula used by recent unsuccessful MMOs.
You see, aside from the believablitiy issue - having no jumping, falling, or swimming in your game also limits the gameplay options you can use.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
"This, I assume, allowed them to start creating the world much faster since they had the basics already, and everyone was familiar with the engine. This in turn allowed them to focus on other features of the game much sooner. "
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
And how did you somehow change the meaning of what I said to be a bad thing?
"Saving time and money" is bad thing. "Saving time and money to put them elsewhere" is NOT necessarily a bad thing, nor is it something unsuccessful gaming companies do. They just leave out the "put them elsewhere" part.
If you were just lazy to quote the whole sentence, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time.
Lol you have a werid way of making friends dont you Hya hehe
In most game you rarely see someone take stairs down. People just jump down ledges because it's faster and they barely take any damage. Just take the blimp in WoW and look at how many people jump to the ground at arrival instead of going down the tower. This hurts immersion a lot more.
You should have stuck to your "gameplay decision" argument, it made more sense. I doubt that SE is on such a tight budget. They can afford both. My hunch is that by having invisible walls you just made collision detection a lot easier.
"There's no angels that can fly, or jedi's. "
Really? Of course Moogles aren't called angels but...
Hey if you have the money, who cares about collision detection... just hire more devs if it's a problem.
Taking too little damage from falling (and you can die from falling in the game, BTW) is an issue easily fixed. Just have it do more damage.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Limiting the gameplay options you can use is not wholly a bad thing.
Consider Portal.
Portal could have used a character creation system where you design your character from scratch, customizing not just your appearance but also your running speed, hit points, computer skills, and intelligence (automatically getting hints on difficult rooms).
Portal could have included a good/evil morality mechanic, where you become more good if you sneak around the nice turrets and more evil if you disable them. You would then unlock good or evil powers as you progress through the game.
Portal could have allowed you to gain speed and make longer jumps by running in a straight line for several seconds, but then limit that ability by making you rest to regain endurance after using it too often.
Portal could have given you a 'search' option and increased the difficulty by making obstacles that could not be overcome until you've searched high and low and eventually uncovered a hidden switch, passage, or item.
Needless to say, Portal included none of these gameplay options and that is a large part of the reason why its in so many gamers' Top Ten lists. These were not left out to save time or money, or because Valve was too lazy to include them. It was a design choice to keep the gameplay focused. You don't have the option to do these things because they're not what Valve wanted people to do in the game. They wanted the main focus to be on the puzzle solving aspect. Walk into a room, here's what you have to work with, figure it out, feel clever, and move on. Anything more than that such as an inventory system or customizable skills would have detracted from the game.
It's a stretch to say that being able to swim in a game or cliffdive in a game detracts from all the other elements that the game ought to be focusing on, but I don't think that's a completely wrong thing to say. Even if the time and cost to implement and test a feature is negligible, the very presence of the feature has just as much potential to diminish the game as to improve it.
Why waste your profit on something you don't need? If they needed it they could easily have budgeted for it. Not a money decision but a gameplay decision.
Yes, it all comes down to profit/effort. The devs get as much money as the producers think is enough, and that's what the devs have to deal with. They can always suggest that with more money they could turn in more profit, but like in life begging for money ain't too easy.
Because it is important to some of your potential customers.
Why have a crafting system?
Why have a guild system?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2