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Here is the main reason forced/heavy group focused MMOs dont work

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  • ShedariiShedarii Member Posts: 14

    Originally posted by Hyanmen

    Originally posted by Shedarii


    Originally posted by Hyanmen

    You don't have to buy the game that "forces" grouping.

    There's the ultimate freedom for you. 

    You are not forced to buy the game. You are not forced to play a game with grouping. 

    If you choose to play such game, it is by your own choice.

    well, I always see people (or often I do) complaining about too much solo in MMOs on these forums...same can be said to them

    I haven't heard of anyone saying "forced solo".

    yeah, thats because they still have the option to group if they want. Unlike forced grouping (like FFXI) where there is no soloing if you don't feel like grouping with someone.

  • ShedariiShedarii Member Posts: 14

    Though I will give some kudos to people who like being forced to group...only game I can think of that forces you to group is FFXI, everything else is all group friendly (except WoW) with solo options available. So there is very few MMOs (maybe just FFXI?) that have forced grouping compared to MMOs that its just optional

  • oakthornnoakthornn Member UncommonPosts: 863

    Originally posted by Shedarii

    One word: Ryzom

     

    See the problem? In a heavy group focused MMO, its great at release when everyone can easily find groups...in the long run, it does not work. The people either move on to the higher end content, so newbies have a hard time grouping and therefor a very hard time doing anything in-game. Or the population dies out so much, no one can find a group...and that does not work either.

     

    I don't like easy mode solo either, like in WoW its IQ dropping easy. But a forced/heavy group focused MMO doesn't work either.

     

           Ryzom has been out for years and wasn't worth playing at release and still isn't worth playing.. Not many people play the game, and the ones that do are mostly ex SWG fans or ex AO gamers...  It has nothing to do with the group focused concept.. Personally, MMORPG's that rely heavily on grouping to achieve your goals last longer and are much more successful than rollercoaster heavily solo eeezzz mode themed  I PWN ALL 1 man wrecking crew games....

    Rallithon Oakthornn
    (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)

  • brutalGOREbrutalGORE Member Posts: 21

    Originally posted by Shedarii

    Though I will give some kudos to people who like being forced to group...only game I can think of that forces you to group is FFXI, everything else is all group friendly (except WoW) with solo options available. So there is very few MMOs (maybe just FFXI?) that have forced grouping compared to MMOs that its just optional

    MMO's shouldnt even have a solo option....thats what offline games are for....mmos are made for grouping with otehrs

  • ShedariiShedarii Member Posts: 14

    Originally posted by brutalGORE

    Originally posted by Shedarii

    Though I will give some kudos to people who like being forced to group...only game I can think of that forces you to group is FFXI, everything else is all group friendly (except WoW) with solo options available. So there is very few MMOs (maybe just FFXI?) that have forced grouping compared to MMOs that its just optional

    MMO's shouldnt even have a solo option....thats what offline games are for....mmos are made for grouping with otehrs

    And I knew this post was going to come up

     

    So, I already wrote what I would reply to it

     

    "Some people might think "well then why play an MMO and not a single player game if you aren't going to team up, join a clan etc?" The reason is I like the dynamic environment of an MMO. Single player games, even the best sandbox games like TES or the early Fallout games, feel a little scripted and sterile to me now. I like the chatter of other players, I like that things never happen exactly the same way twice. I'm not against joining a clan, and clan based PvE is something I look forward to, but I'm not in a rush to get there."

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    Originally posted by brutalGORE

    The reason group focused games dont work is too many people are more worried about what they achieve as to what the group can achieve. FF11 was great because it rewarded you for grouping. Games like wow dont do this. Sure grouping helps to run raids and to enjoy the company of others, but when you look at the achievements its all about the individual and not the group. Shows in alot of western games where runnin in head first alone seems to be the mentality of most. Personally i thought the point of playing an online game was to group up with others. If you want to solo go play a single player game. mass multiplayer online roleplaying games should be group-centric. I'm so tired of people wanting an online game they can solo through so they can "pwn n00bs". FF11 has been my fav mmo of all time due to the group mechanics and rewards. I spent many days running around in groups making new friends and gaining a couple levels. Also greed factors into this equation. No one wants to group up if lets say for example you've been waiting to run this raid for some time. You get into and you see a piece of gear you could really use, but someone else snatches it up for no reason other than to have it. The needs of the group have to outweigh the wants of an individual for it all to work out. If a piece of priest gear drops then only the priest should get to take it. The rouge needs to let it go and not ninja it for no reason.

    An extremely well-reasoned and sensible post.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • ShedariiShedarii Member Posts: 14

    Originally posted by Shedarii

    Originally posted by brutalGORE


    Originally posted by Shedarii

    Though I will give some kudos to people who like being forced to group...only game I can think of that forces you to group is FFXI, everything else is all group friendly (except WoW) with solo options available. So there is very few MMOs (maybe just FFXI?) that have forced grouping compared to MMOs that its just optional

    MMO's shouldnt even have a solo option....thats what offline games are for....mmos are made for grouping with otehrs

    And I knew this post was going to come up

     

    So, I already wrote what I would reply to it

     

    "Some people might think "well then why play an MMO and not a single player game if you aren't going to team up, join a clan etc?" The reason is I like the dynamic environment of an MMO. Single player games, even the best sandbox games like TES or the early Fallout games, feel a little scripted and sterile to me now. I like the chatter of other players, I like that things never happen exactly the same way twice. I'm not against joining a clan, and clan based PvE is something I look forward to, but I'm not in a rush to get there."

    To add to this

     

    There are many things to do in a MMO besides being forced to group with someone that you can't do in a singleplayer RPG. Chat to other people, trade with other people, join clans with other people, raid with other people, pvp other people, build cities with other people and tons of stuff. 

     

    Like my post earlier, I was co-founder of one of the largest player cities on the server I was in SWG. We started with a few buildings, we got word out, people came and the city was quite active until SOE changed everything. Can't do that in a singleplayer game.

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,364

    It amuses me when people use the term "focred." I don't know of any games that have forced grouping. There are only games where some, but not all, of the game's content requires grouping to succeed. That doesn't mean you are being forced to group.

     

    If games has soloing opportunities, would that mean it is "forced soloing?"

     

    If an item can only be used by the crafter who makes it, is that forced crafting?

     

    I like to solo, but I also like to group. I especially like having choices for how to spend my time.

     

     

     

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ShedariiShedarii Member Posts: 14

    Originally posted by Amathe

    It amuses me when people use the term "focred." I don't know of any games that have forced grouping. There are only games where some, but not all, of the game's content requires grouping to succeed. That doesn't mean you are being forced to group.

     

    If games has soloing opportunities, would that mean it is "forced soloing?"

     

    If an item can only be used by the crafter who makes it, is that forced crafting?

     

    I like to solo, but I also like to group. I especially like having choices for how to spend my time.

     

     

     

    I like grouping as well, just not when its forced upon me. 

     

    And though my tone suggests I only solo, and never group...that isn't really true. I group a lot, but when it starts being forced I have a problem with. 

     

    What the quote is talking about is group friendly MMOs. That is games like EQ2, EVE Online and SWG pre-cu. What the thread is about is forced grouping MMOs with very little or no content you can do on your own.

     

    But like an earlier reply said, I have the freedom to not buy a forced grouping MMO. Luckily, most MMOs are group friendly and not group forced.

  • MurashuMurashu Member UncommonPosts: 1,385

    I'm just curious which games fit the forced/heavy group focused label? I've been playing MMOs since EQ was released and I've never played a game that forced anyone to group. The original EQ was very group focused (not forced) at the launch, but changed over time to support all playstyles. So over the last 11 years I've played a bunch of MMOs and not one has ever made me feel like I'm forced to group, actually it's quite the opposite. Most  MMOs make me feel like I'm supposed to be soloing when what I really want to do is group.

    So what MMOs other than FF, which I saw mentioned earlier, force you to group or are considered heavy group focused?

    www.agonysend.org

  • DibdabsDibdabs Member RarePosts: 2,929

    Originally posted by Shedarii

    One word: Ryzom

     Longer explanation:

     Ryzom is a MMO with pretty much a dead population. Its heavily group focused. It does not work, because most of the people are in the higher end of the game...and the game has such a low pop, even the trial isle is hard to find groups in.

     See the problem? In a heavy group focused MMO, its great at release when everyone can easily find groups...in the long run, it does not work. The people either move on to the higher end content, so newbies have a hard time grouping and therefor a very hard time doing anything in-game. Or the population dies out so much, no one can find a group...and that does not work either.

    Good points, plus there's the fact that for every nice, helpful, articulate player you'll meet, there's 20 semi-educated, greedy, whining dickheads.  Life is just too short to sort out the wheat from the chaff any more.  It's a shame, but that's how it is.

  • tharkthark Member UncommonPosts: 1,188

    We can kid ourselves as much as we want, the only way to actually get a community to flourish is when grouping is more/less mandatory or atleast the biggest part of the game..

    I have nothing against small tasks or leisure hunting solo, but If a MMO has it's largest part of content soloable it won't work in the long run.


    Unless it's requiered or forced, players won't group/talk or communicate in any way unless there is a problem with the game or something like that..

    After this players in a solo MMO will get bored much faster, and the lifespan of such a game is therefor shorten, unless the developers manage to get new players that constantly will enter..

    But as the years pass by so does the game, I can just imagine the flood of new players that will enter Champions Online after it has been out a year...:)

    Times has changed, I was in EQ and EQ2 for years, nowadays I keep my interesst in a game a few months tops, when you can just breeze trough a game solo, everything goes faster and there isnt really much chance for a real community to build up..

    /junker

  • brutalGOREbrutalGORE Member Posts: 21

    Originally posted by Shedarii

    Originally posted by brutalGORE


    Originally posted by Shedarii

    Though I will give some kudos to people who like being forced to group...only game I can think of that forces you to group is FFXI, everything else is all group friendly (except WoW) with solo options available. So there is very few MMOs (maybe just FFXI?) that have forced grouping compared to MMOs that its just optional

    MMO's shouldnt even have a solo option....thats what offline games are for....mmos are made for grouping with otehrs

    And I knew this post was going to come up

     

    So, I already wrote what I would reply to it

     

    "Some people might think "well then why play an MMO and not a single player game if you aren't going to team up, join a clan etc?" The reason is I like the dynamic environment of an MMO. Single player games, even the best sandbox games like TES or the early Fallout games, feel a little scripted and sterile to me now. I like the chatter of other players, I like that things never happen exactly the same way twice. I'm not against joining a clan, and clan based PvE is something I look forward to, but I'm not in a rush to get there."

    Single player games have also grown stale for me. But the idea of playing an online game for the sake of others chatter doesnt work either. If you can solo through the content whats to keep you playing? Endgame grouping? If you were "forced" to group through the entire content of the game you would know what group mechanics were and how your class worked with others. If you solo through it when you get to the point of being in a group you still have the solo play mentality. Like said in another post i dont mind solo farming and and the occasional solo grind, but the fact is that the game is made online for group play. Why wouldn't you want to group online? If the chatter of others is what your really lookin for play a offline game while sitting in a chatroom. But people that scream about a game not being able to be soloed is in my opinion rather ridiculous. I just cant comprehend why you would play an online game and never interact with others other than socializing. You can chat with the people in your group while your playing. You get to know people better when you play through content with them. Tighter knit communities come from grouping not mindless "barrens chat". Personally i'm in a rush for a game that is more group centric, an updated ff11 if you will. In no way do i wish them to make all games group-focused, its not for all apperantly, but i also wish that if one does come out poeple dont join it and complain that they cant solo it, if you wanna solo go play wow.

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    Good points, plus there's the fact that for every nice, helpful, articulate player you'll meet, there's 20 semi-educated, greedy, whining dickheads.

    Yes, and those are the soloers.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774

    If you want to solo go play a single player game. mass multiplayer online roleplaying games should be group-centric. I'm so tired of people wanting an online game they can solo through so they can "pwn n00bs".

    You just contradict yourself. There is no n00bs to pwn on a SP game. Grouping is NOT the only reason to play a MMO.

  • ArckenArcken Member Posts: 2,431

    Originally posted by thark

    We can kid ourselves as much as we want, the only way to actually get a community to flourish is when grouping is more/less mandatory or atleast the biggest part of the game..

    I have nothing against small tasks or leisure hunting solo, but If a MMO has it's largest part of content soloable it won't work in the long run.



    Unless it's requiered or forced, players won't group/talk or communicate in any way unless there is a problem with the game or something like that..

    After this players in a solo MMO will get bored much faster, and the lifespan of such a game is therefor shorten, unless the developers manage to get new players that constantly will enter..

    But as the years pass by so does the game, I can just imagine the flood of new players that will enter Champions Online after it has been out a year...:)

    Times has changed, I was in EQ and EQ2 for years, nowadays I keep my interesst in a game a few months tops, when you can just breeze trough a game solo, everything goes faster and there isnt really much chance for a real community to build up..

    /junker

     Spot on. We just have to face it MMOs now cater to a generation with a smaller tolerance for commitment. MMOs are less mmo and more fps these days in terms of the attitude a lot of people bring to the table. Thats the big reason no one can capture the glory of the EQ days, old school people still had social skills because they grew up before the internet instead of with it.

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,364

    I'm gonna find me a message board for a single player game and complain about the lack of grouping.

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • NovaKayneNovaKayne Member Posts: 743

    If the game has a decent enough crafting part with the resources being dropped by mobs or harvested.  It can support a more Group Centric community leaving the solo play to be more on the harvesting for resources and selling while gaining some XP.

     

    SWG had that in spades.  Too bad the combat and grouping was so borked.

     

    Most games that come out now do not differentiate between what a group does and what solo players do.  If you leave the game open to solo play ( Champions ) it tends to not have much of a following because you can solo your way through the game itself.

     

    However, IMO, this works with Champions because it is a Super Hero game, not a Super Group game.  City of Heroes should be changed to City of Super Teams.  That is what is going on there and often times you do not feel like much of a SH but, just another cog in a wheel.

     

    Say hello, To the things you've left behind. They are more a part of your life now that you can't touch them.

  • brutalGOREbrutalGORE Member Posts: 21

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    If you want to solo go play a single player game. mass multiplayer online roleplaying games should be group-centric. I'm so tired of people wanting an online game they can solo through so they can "pwn n00bs".

    You just contradict yourself. There is no n00bs to pwn on a SP game. Grouping is NOT the only reason to play a MMO.

    My point is that grouping should bemore focused on in mmos....pvp is another story altogether my friend. And once again, why wouldnt you want to group in an mmo. Even if you are a pvper wouldn't grouping make much more sense? Its called group tactics and prevents one person from getting ganked. Group battles are much more fun as well. Please tell me your a solo pvper, i really wanna hear how when a group of players that work well together comes across your solo pvpness you dont get wiped. Grouping is always more effective, both pve and pvp. the only people i've ever talked to that want solo pvp is gankers, and gankers have no skill.

     

    And please....tell me why else you would play a game online with other people in it if your not gonna group up with them? Seriously I wanna know.

  • TorikTorik Member UncommonPosts: 2,342

    Originally posted by thark

    We can kid ourselves as much as we want, the only way to actually get a community to flourish is when grouping is more/less mandatory or atleast the biggest part of the game..

    I have nothing against small tasks or leisure hunting solo, but If a MMO has it's largest part of content soloable it won't work in the long run.



    Unless it's requiered or forced, players won't group/talk or communicate in any way unless there is a problem with the game or something like that..

    After this players in a solo MMO will get bored much faster, and the lifespan of such a game is therefor shorten, unless the developers manage to get new players that constantly will enter..

    But as the years pass by so does the game, I can just imagine the flood of new players that will enter Champions Online after it has been out a year...:)

    Times has changed, I was in EQ and EQ2 for years, nowadays I keep my interesst in a game a few months tops, when you can just breeze trough a game solo, everything goes faster and there isnt really much chance for a real community to build up..

    /junker

    Completly disagree.  You can get some amazing communities to flourish where grouping for combat is the least aspect of the community.   In turn the fastest way to ruin such a community is to make their only viable progression choice to be repetetive grouping. 

    Communities form around shared intrests and/or ideologies.  If the only reason for a community to form is because of a 'group or quit playing' requirement then the community will only last as long as that requirement stays in place.  When the need for grouping is removed that community will fall apart while communities formed on other interests will continue. 

    'forced grouping' is the anti-social way of forming communities which is likely why the 'old school' players have such a hard time finding solid communities.  Comunities formed on enjoying the game in turn last way longer and have a much deeper impact.

  • mims03mims03 Member Posts: 2

    I'm surprised nobody has mention how FFXI has been able to stay around with their forced grouping.  Level sync lets you sync down so it extends the range in which you can party must say its an awesome option i kinda wish they had the beginning so i could have played with my real life friends more.

  • DameonkDameonk Member UncommonPosts: 1,914

    Originally posted by Torik

    Completly disagree.  You can get some amazing communities to flourish where grouping for combat is the least aspect of the community.   In turn the fastest way to ruin such a community is to make their only viable progression choice to be repetetive grouping. 

    I would really like to know what game you're talking about here.  DAoC, EQ, and FFXI have hands down the best communities around.  I would also add LOTRO to that list too even though it's primarily solo now, it wasn't at release and has just recently been changed to be mostly solo instead of half and half and I have seen a decline in the quality of the community since Moria came out.

    So what "amazing" communities are you talking about in solo games?

    Communities form around shared intrests and/or ideologies.

    Re-read what you just wrote above, because you condtridict yourself in the next sentence.

    If the only reason for a community to form is because of a 'group or quit playing' requirement then the community will only last as long as that requirement stays in place.

    Wouldn't liking to group be one of those "shared interests" you were just referring to?

    When the need for grouping is removed that community will fall apart while communities formed on other interests will continue. 

    Then why remove the need for grouping?  That's like saying removing the clay from a pottery class will cause the pottery community to fall apart.  Well of course it would, that's why everyone was there in the first place and why the community formed.  Removing the reason for the community to exist from any hobby will cause it to fall apart.

    'forced grouping' is the anti-social way of forming communities which is likely why the 'old school' players have such a hard time finding solid communities.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree on your opinion here.  As an 'old school' player I can agree with just one part of the statement above.  We have a hard time finding solid communities in today's MMO games.  The funny thing is you say forced grouping is anti-social but the only games I have found solid communities in are games that are very group focused.

    The only game I would say did not fit that was UO which had a fantastic community and was completely soloable; but I think that had less to do with the combat and more to do with the brutal world we played in.

    Comunities formed on enjoying the game in turn last way longer and have a much deeper impact.

    I really tried to think of even just one game released since WoW that would fit into this statement, but I couldn't.  

    "There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."

  • brutalGOREbrutalGORE Member Posts: 21

    Originally posted by Dameonk

    Originally posted by Torik



    Completly disagree.  You can get some amazing communities to flourish where grouping for combat is the least aspect of the community.   In turn the fastest way to ruin such a community is to make their only viable progression choice to be repetetive grouping. 

    I would really like to know what game you're talking about here.  DAoC, EQ, and FFXI have hands down the best communities around.  I would also add LOTRO to that list too even though it's primarily solo now, it wasn't at release and has just recently been changed to be mostly solo instead of half and half and I have seen a decline in the quality of the community since Moria came out.

    So what "amazing" communities are you talking about in solo games?

    Communities form around shared intrests and/or ideologies.

    Re-read what you just wrote above, because you condtridict yourself in the next sentence.

    If the only reason for a community to form is because of a 'group or quit playing' requirement then the community will only last as long as that requirement stays in place.

    Wouldn't liking to group be one of those "shared interests" you were just referring to?

    When the need for grouping is removed that community will fall apart while communities formed on other interests will continue. 

    Then why remove the need for grouping?  That's like saying removing the clay from a pottery class will cause the pottery community to fall apart.  Well of course it would, that's why everyone was there in the first place and why the community formed.  Removing the reason for the community to exist from any hobby will cause it to fall apart.

    'forced grouping' is the anti-social way of forming communities which is likely why the 'old school' players have such a hard time finding solid communities.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree on your opinion here.  As an 'old school' player I can agree with just one part of the statement above.  We have a hard time finding solid communities in today's MMO games.  The funny thing is you say forced grouping is anti-social but the only games I have found solid communities in are games that are very group focused.

    The only game I would say did not fit that was UO which had a fantastic community and was completely soloable; but I think that had less to do with the combat and more to do with the brutal world we played in.

    Comunities formed on enjoying the game in turn last way longer and have a much deeper impact.

    I really tried to think of even just one game released since WoW that would fit into this statement, but I couldn't.  

    -clap- bravissimo, wonderfully said

  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516

    WoW has both group content and solo content. You can solo all of the tutorial levels 1-79.

    You can solo the end game content. If you want to gear up, grouping is forced in WoW.

    This is a good compromise, IMO. I like doing dungeons with groups, but if I log on at odd hours, I want to have something to do.

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • brutalGOREbrutalGORE Member Posts: 21

    Originally posted by uquipu

    WoW has both group content and solo content. You can solo all of the tutorial levels 1-79.

    You can solo the end game content. If you want to gear up, grouping is forced in WoW.

    This is a good compromise, IMO. I like doing dungeons with groups, but if I log on at odd hours, I want to have something to do.

    Wait.....tutorial levels 1-79??? Aren't there only 80 lvls in the game? So what your saying is that 99% of the game is tutorial. I can find groups at pretty much anytime during the day. Like said earlier FF11 thrives and is group focused,.

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