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Here is the main reason forced/heavy group focused MMOs dont work

One word: Ryzom

 

Longer explanation:

 

Ryzom is a MMO with pretty much a dead population. Its heavily group focused. It does not work, because most of the people are in the higher end of the game...and the game has such a low pop, even the trial isle is hard to find groups in.

 

See the problem? In a heavy group focused MMO, its great at release when everyone can easily find groups...in the long run, it does not work. The people either move on to the higher end content, so newbies have a hard time grouping and therefor a very hard time doing anything in-game. Or the population dies out so much, no one can find a group...and that does not work either.

 

I don't like easy mode solo either, like in WoW its IQ dropping easy. But a forced/heavy group focused MMO doesn't work either.

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Comments

  • maltosmaltos Member Posts: 94

    ok

    -Maltos-

  • gothagotha Member UncommonPosts: 1,071

    CoH did very well with group and scaled instancing.    One place where i really enjoyed instancing and think it helped the game.

     

    AOC also did it well, but more traditionally.  It had a good mix of group and solo contewnt.  Might be a grind place here and their but you where mostly in the clear.

  • ThomasN7ThomasN7 87.18.7.148Member CommonPosts: 6,690

    FFXI worked for how many years now ?

    30
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,357

    There are many reasons why Ryzom did not succeed and while the forced grouping mechanics may hinder growth at this time, it is not the whole story as to why the game can't make a comeback.

    In its heyday DAOC strongly encouraged/rewarded grouping and the game was quite popular.  Now its dead even though the gameplay has been changed to make leveling to 50 solo entirely possible by almost every class, yet once again, whether the game is solo friendly or group friendly isn't the real story behind its decline.

    Final Fantasy XIV will likely provide strong rewards for grouping on a more modern platform and we'll see how well that works out. (FFXI is still doing well from what I've read, and while not the same as when it was released, its still a grouping game for the most part)

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  • ButtermilchButtermilch Member Posts: 208

    There is another reason, why enforced grouping doesn't work in addition to one you mentioned.

    Sometimes I just want to log in for let's say 30 minutes, playing a short session. It wouldn't make any sense to have to look for a group. I'd have to spend 5-15 minutes to group up. And the other people would be pissed if I had to go away within the next 20 minutes...

  • maltosmaltos Member Posts: 94

    to be fair it does cause a game to die out or lose interest if you have to wait so long to just get a group to play a game. FFXI has died out a lot because of it and also numerous people left because of it. (I prefer FFXI and to me it was worth waiting) however I agree in the long run it can ruin games. Hence why FFXI has tried to focus more attention to solo play for those to pass the time while they wait for a group.

    -Maltos-

  • Dixi01Dixi01 Member UncommonPosts: 54

    Ryzom is dead game, playstyle independant.

    original Everquest - almost impossible to solo. - top game for several years

    WoW, if we speak about equipment, not leveling, is also group/raid game

  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516

    Ryzom wasn't fun for me.

    Apparently, Ryzom is not fun for most people.

    How would you make Ryzom more fun? I don't know.

    My hunch is, the solo to group content ratio doesn't figure into whether or not a game is fun. The combat system can make or break a game, though.

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357

    Encourage players to play at low level as well as high level.

    FFXI did do this aspect well. Level support jobs and have as many main jobs on one character as you want... there's always someone to group with.

    Less and less as years pass... however, if it takes 7-8 years to get to that point, I wouldn't say grouping MMO's "don't work" because of that. Many MMO's can only dream of a 7-8 year lifespan.

    In the best case you can duo/trio/4-man efficiently (it's grouping too), so it'll never be a problem.

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,430

    Correct answer would be: because they do.

    If a MMO has no population, well its dead no matter what. Population is the point of MMOs.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • VarnyVarny Member Posts: 765

    Get rid of levels and it works perfectly...

    SWG Pre Cu

    EVE Online

  • ariestearieste Member UncommonPosts: 3,309

    Originally posted by Adamantine

    Correct answer would be: because they do.

    If a MMO has no population, well its dead no matter what. Population is the point of MMOs.

    Uhm, yeah, that.  

    EQ2, WoW, LoTRO, L2, etc.  all require grouping and seem to be working just fine.

     

    I do disagree about population being the point of MMOs.  I always thought immersion and fun were the point of MMOs.

    For example:  WoW has a massive population, but it doesn't make me want to play it any more than say... Fallen Earth which has a tiny population.  I'm actually more likely to play FE because of the immersion part.  

    Then again, there are plenty of people that do stuff just because other people are doing it - like play WoW,watch Twilight, eat at Burget King and listen to Justin Bieber, so I guess some argument CAN be made for "population is the point", but I don't subscribe to it.

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  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    Originally posted by Hyanmen

    Encourage players to play at low level as well as high level.

     

    BINGO.

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  • ChrisMatternChrisMattern Member Posts: 1,478

    Three words:
    Final Fantasy XI

    Longer explanation:
    Its group heavy and group forced play fostered a close-knit but friendly community that has helped FFXI be one of the most successful MMORPGs ever, beating out EverQuest (though not, admittedly, WoW).

  • ShedariiShedarii Member Posts: 14

    Originally posted by Varny

    Get rid of levels and it works perfectly...

    SWG Pre Cu

    EVE Online

    outside of PvP, you can easily solo in everything else in EVE. Maybe not wormholes, but even then I was able to solo it. Though I agree, when it comes to PvP its better to group. But, grouping is a choice in EVE, it isn't required

     

    And back in SWG Pre Cu, it was group friendly but not required. I soloed lots of times in SWG, and grouped just as much, but I wasn't forced to.

     

    I hate being forced to do stuff in a game and in real life, I hate linear games that force you on a path...I want freedom

     

    Another argument against forced group, that isn't freedom at all. Why not let the players choose? In EVE, you have the FREEDOM to group or not, and same with SWG Pre Cu. Grouping isn't required in those two (though kind of is required for PvP in EVE, but even then you can solo it out), but its definitely group friendly.

     

    On the other side of the coin, grouping in WoW outside of raids (I hate raids) and battlegrounds/arena, grouping penalizes you...especially while leveling

  • JakdstripperJakdstripper Member RarePosts: 2,408

    i agree with OP

    An mmo must have strong solo content AND incentives to group for either pvp or pvp but without making grouping mandatory. most mmo players like to play solo and then group when they feel like tackling a bigger challange or trying for a special reward. to be foreced to group for absolutely everything, pvp and pve wise, just doesn't work. having only solo content also doesn't work. wile grouping is essencial for the survival of any mmo making it the main focus of the game especially in pvp will never work.

    most people want to be able to just log on every now and then and either do some solo content of a quick fast group challenge.

  • toddzetoddze Member UncommonPosts: 2,150

    Originally posted by Shedarii

    One word: Ryzom

     

    Longer explanation:

     

    Ryzom is a MMO with pretty much a dead population. Its heavily group focused. It does not work, because most of the people are in the higher end of the game...and the game has such a low pop, even the trial isle is hard to find groups in.

     

    See the problem? In a heavy group focused MMO, its great at release when everyone can easily find groups...in the long run, it does not work. The people either move on to the higher end content, so newbies have a hard time grouping and therefor a very hard time doing anything in-game. Or the population dies out so much, no one can find a group...and that does not work either.

     

    I don't like easy mode solo either, like in WoW its IQ dropping easy. But a forced/heavy group focused MMO doesn't work either.

     Hate to throw a monkey wrench in your theory but Heres the reason they can

    One word: FFXI

    FFXI is one if the most successfull mmo's of all time, granted its never had millions of subs, but what it did do was hold 500k sub for many years. Grouping games do work if done right, you need to look no further than ffxi to se that.

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  • ZarcobZarcob Member Posts: 207

    Originally posted by Shedarii

    Originally posted by Varny

    Get rid of levels and it works perfectly...

    SWG Pre Cu

    EVE Online

    outside of PvP, you can easily solo in everything else in EVE. Maybe not wormholes, but even then I was able to solo it. Though I agree, when it comes to PvP its better to group. But, grouping is a choice in EVE, it isn't required

     

    And back in SWG Pre Cu, it was group friendly but not required. I soloed lots of times in SWG, and grouped just as much, but I wasn't forced to.

     

    I hate being forced to do stuff in a game and in real life, I hate linear games that force you on a path...I want freedom

     

    Another argument against forced group, that isn't freedom at all. Why not let the players choose? In EVE, you have the FREEDOM to group or not, and same with SWG Pre Cu. Grouping isn't required in those two (though kind of is required for PvP in EVE, but even then you can solo it out), but its definitely group friendly.

     

    On the other side of the coin, grouping in WoW outside of raids (I hate raids) and battlegrounds/arena, grouping penalizes you...especially while leveling

     

    You hate more stuff than you like.

     

    Freedom is an illusion, and a terribly over-rated one at that.  99% of the time a game isn't "forcing" you to group, it just doesn't have solo content available.  Maybe the developers don't have the time to make it, maybe they feel it isn't worth it, maybe they feel it's too difficult to balance with group content, maybe they just don't like the attitude of solo players, who knows for sure.  I don't think it matters honestly.

     

    You have pretty clearly stated you enjoy solo content, which seems like it should make your choice of MMO pretty clear-cut,I fail to see what the drama's about.  Avoid games without solo content and you'll be happy, instead of complaining they made the game wrong or they're "forcing" you to do something.  It makes about as much sense as playing a game without a Rogue class and complaining the developers are forcing you to be a Warrior.  Or perhaps more humorously: playing a fantasy game without gunpowder and complaining the developers are forcing you to use bows.

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  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357

    You don't have to buy the game that "forces" grouping.

    There's the ultimate freedom for you. 

    You are not forced to buy the game. You are not forced to play a game with grouping. 

    If you choose to play such game, it is by your own choice.

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • scuubeedooscuubeedoo Member Posts: 458

    Hmm how is Ryzom "heavy group focused" MMO? I remember i soloed my way up to lvl 90 or something. Sure i couldn't do bosses alone but isn't that the case with any MMO?

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  • brostynbrostyn Member Posts: 3,092

    I disagree. I think most MMOs today have a declining population, because its a solo fest. The few MMOs that encourage grouping are doing well.

     

    No, North American MMO today, besides WoW, is even close to EQ's population during its heyday. Let's not forget at level 80 WoW is strictly forced grouping.

    I think the solo mentality has really hurt us.

  • ShedariiShedarii Member Posts: 14

    Originally posted by Hyanmen

    You don't have to buy the game that "forces" grouping.

    There's the ultimate freedom for you. 

    You are not forced to buy the game. You are not forced to play a game with grouping. 

    If you choose to play such game, it is by your own choice.

    well, I always see people (or often I do) complaining about too much solo in MMOs on these forums...same can be said to them

  • ShedariiShedarii Member Posts: 14

    Originally posted by brostyn

    I disagree. I think most MMOs today have a declining population, because its a solo fest. The few MMOs that encourage grouping are doing well.

     

    No, North American MMO today, besides WoW, is even close to EQ's population during its heyday. Let's not forget at level 80 WoW is strictly forced grouping.

    I think the solo mentality has really hurt us.

    LOTRO is doing really well and its solo heavy. Warhammer, AoC, Vanguard and a few other major MMOs bombed because the launch sucked so bad.

     

    Though yeah at 80 WoW is either raids or PvP, and its group heavy if you want to do those two things (though thats the only thing to do at endgame in WoW)

     

    Now one awesome game that was talked about here...that was group friendly but not forced is SWG. I remember being co-leader of a player city, after 3 months the city became huge and really active. That was awesome. Never played a MMO where I was able to help someone or even start it myself and just build somewhere in the wilderness and then people all migrate to it and build there too. Now that is an AWESOME "group" feature.

  • HyanmenHyanmen Member UncommonPosts: 5,357

    Originally posted by Shedarii

    Originally posted by Hyanmen

    You don't have to buy the game that "forces" grouping.

    There's the ultimate freedom for you. 

    You are not forced to buy the game. You are not forced to play a game with grouping. 

    If you choose to play such game, it is by your own choice.

    well, I always see people (or often I do) complaining about too much solo in MMOs on these forums...same can be said to them

    I haven't heard of anyone saying "forced solo".

    Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
  • brutalGOREbrutalGORE Member Posts: 21

    The reason group focused games dont work is too many people are more worried about what they achieve as to what the group can achieve. FF11 was great because it rewarded you for grouping. Games like wow dont do this. Sure grouping helps to run raids and to enjoy the company of others, but when you look at the achievements its all about the individual and not the group. Shows in alot of western games where runnin in head first alone seems to be the mentality of most. Personally i thought the point of playing an online game was to group up with others. If you want to solo go play a single player game. mass multiplayer online roleplaying games should be group-centric. I'm so tired of people wanting an online game they can solo through so they can "pwn n00bs". FF11 has been my fav mmo of all time due to the group mechanics and rewards. I spent many days running around in groups making new friends and gaining a couple levels. Also greed factors into this equation. No one wants to group up if lets say for example you've been waiting to run this raid for some time. You get into and you see a piece of gear you could really use, but someone else snatches it up for no reason other than to have it. The needs of the group have to outweigh the wants of an individual for it all to work out. If a piece of priest gear drops then only the priest should get to take it. The rouge needs to let it go and not ninja it for no reason.

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