Not entirely true. He said he realizes why people would be upset about this meaning the perception that they will be charged without their authorization. It doesn't really give you an affirmative on whether that perception was correct to begin with.
Except.. if it weren't true he would simply be able to state so.. Instead of having to escalate it to management and getting a response next week...(Keep in mind that SV has just a handful of employees.. and this guy has many of them reporting to him as Community Manager.. is it really THAT hard to talk with your boss that it takes weeks?)
A simple.. "Don't worry. If you didn't actively select a subscription you won't be charged" would have put the whole issue to bed... So since that didn't happen, either he doesn't understand the policy himself (which should tell you something) or he is waiting to see if they will change it or spin it.
My money is on a statement pretty much ignoring the issue and saying that recurring billing is a standard MMORPG practice with no mention of the fact that these people didn't chose a subscription type or duration as required by their own TOS. I also think they will say that they will be emailing all their customers to make sure they are aware of their policy.
If that happens it is simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Customers must actively agree to be charged... not passively accept it. But we shall see what happens in a few days... Their own forums are in an uproar. The very thread entitled "MORE MMORPG.COM LIES" has turned into a relevation for many who can't believe SV would even consider acting this way. I think their eyes have been opened to more than just this single issue. We shall see...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This is what I was thinking. If they weren't going to and had no intention we would have had a pretty quick "no way" answer. If it takes a few days to respond - they are trying to either figure out how to change it or how they will present it.
This is quickly turning into one of the silliest threads of my many years stalking these forums.. Nothing illegal has happened, something which may, perhaps, be bad customer service, can possibly, happen, at some point, in the future. Posters flying off the wall thinking that US law is applicable in Sweden. (Hints: court case? go ahead, try. class action suit? good luck. punitives? nope.)
Have anyone actually looked into who takes care of the billing and subscription at all? Both may be (most likely) third party vendors which SV doesn't control and they can't give definitve answers until they know for sure what is happening themselves. And as previously stated, there's nothing unethical about a company placing people on autorenewal for a subscription, especially if they have preordered. I've bought mobile phones in three countries with a condition of a 12 month plan and it's always been autorenewed after that time. Seeing as this whole thread is about hypotheticals, until something *actually* happens, this thread is nothing but hyperbole.
(Note: I'm have no intentions of playing this game and could care less for it, its just too silly to let stand.)
This is quickly turning into one of the silliest threads of my many years stalking these forums.. Nothing illegal has happened, something which may, perhaps, be bad customer service, can possibly, happen, at some point, in the future. Posters flying off the wall thinking that US law is applicable in Sweden. (Hints: court case? go ahead, try. class action suit? good luck. punitives? nope.)
Have anyone actually looked into who takes care of the billing and subscription at all? Both may be (most likely) third party vendors which SV doesn't control and they can't give definitve answers until they know for sure what is happening themselves. And as previously stated, there's nothing unethical about a company placing people on autorenewal for a subscription, especially if they have preordered. I've bought mobile phones in three countries with a condition of a 12 month plan and it's always been autorenewed after that time. Seeing as this whole thread is about hypotheticals, until something *actually* happens, this thread is nothing but hyperbole.
(Note: I'm have no intentions of playing this game and could care less for it, its just too silly to let stand.)
Please re-read the thread for it appears you missed much of it
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This is quickly turning into one of the silliest threads of my many years stalking these forums.. Nothing illegal has happened, something which may, perhaps, be bad customer service, can possibly, happen, at some point, in the future. Posters flying off the wall thinking that US law is applicable in Sweden. (Hints: court case? go ahead, try. class action suit? good luck. punitives? nope.)
Have anyone actually looked into who takes care of the billing and subscription at all? Both may be (most likely) third party vendors which SV doesn't control and they can't give definitve answers until they know for sure what is happening themselves. And as previously stated, there's nothing unethical about a company placing people on autorenewal for a subscription, especially if they have preordered. I've bought mobile phones in three countries with a condition of a 12 month plan and it's always been autorenewed after that time. Seeing as this whole thread is about hypotheticals, until something *actually* happens, this thread is nothing but hyperbole.
(Note: I'm have no intentions of playing this game and could care less for it, its just too silly to let stand.)
Please re-read the thread for it appears you missed much of it
So you've been charged? Can I see the screenshot of your bankaccount?
This is quickly turning into one of the silliest threads of my many years stalking these forums.. Nothing illegal has happened, something which may, perhaps, be bad customer service, can possibly, happen, at some point, in the future. Posters flying off the wall thinking that US law is applicable in Sweden. (Hints: court case? go ahead, try. class action suit? good luck. punitives? nope.)
Have anyone actually looked into who takes care of the billing and subscription at all? Both may be (most likely) third party vendors which SV doesn't control and they can't give definitve answers until they know for sure what is happening themselves. And as previously stated, there's nothing unethical about a company placing people on autorenewal for a subscription, especially if they have preordered. I've bought mobile phones in three countries with a condition of a 12 month plan and it's always been autorenewed after that time. Seeing as this whole thread is about hypotheticals, until something *actually* happens, this thread is nothing but hyperbole.
(Note: I'm have no intentions of playing this game and could care less for it, its just too silly to let stand.)
Please re-read the thread for it appears you missed much of it
So you've been charged? Can I see the screenshot of your bankaccount?
You should go to the MO thread though posted at the beginning of this thread. A lot of people there thought it was silly as well until there was no answer for a few days.
I agree that it is only PR at this point. . but imagine if this nasty thread was not started. . then it would have been different. If they can fix it now good for them. . if it is after release it would look much worse.
I think you may be right reijan. Maybe the laws differ from country to country, but I know in the US that a company is not allowed to bill you a monthly subscription unless you specifically agree to it. Purchasing a game's client for X dollars does not mean you also agree to purchase the subscription.
I personally use a different card for any game I sub to as a security precaution, so I would be very put off by any company that automatically uses the card I purchased the client with to pay for my sub...
you are wrong, and all the other threads about this topic are terribly misinformed and WRONG.
Many companies do this, from auto insurance companies to 90% of every "free credit report" company. This is an unfortunate standard practice that hopefully in the future will be thwarted by legislature. While my specialty is business law, I can attest to the legality issues and affirm that it is rather unfortunate, but companies CAN and DO get away with this.
Want to make a difference? Stop paying to play betas, read their contract and fine print on the website, and ask questions BEFORE opening your wallet. You can save yourself a huge headache. You would be amazed on how many things you agree to by simply visiting a company's website and paying for a service or a product. Want to know more about this topic, study up on contract law. Have any questions, feel free to ask.
you are wrong, and all the other threads about this topic are terribly misinformed and WRONG.
Many companies do this, from auto insurance companies to 90% of every "free credit report" company. This is an unfortunate standard practice that hopefully in the future will be thwarted by legislature. While my specialty is business law, I can attest to the legality issues and affirm that it is rather unfortunate, but companies CAN and DO get away with this.
Want to make a difference? Stop paying to play betas, read their contract and fine print on the website, and ask questions BEFORE opening your wallet. You can save yourself a huge headache. You would be amazed on how many things you agree to by simply visiting a company's website and paying for a service or a product. Want to know more about this topic, study up on contract law. Have any questions, feel free to ask.
OK.. I have a question. All the examples you gave (Freecredit reports etc). They are allowed to start recurrent billing without telling you or you clicking accept anywhere? I call bullshit. YES they try to cloak it or have small text somewhere, but YOU have to somehow be notified and accept the terms. That did NOT happen in this case and THAT is the difference. A contract is an agreement between 2 or more parties. A contract is not one person unilaterally deciding to bill you for something you didn't agree to. That would be the opposite of a contract.
SV knows they stepped in poop on this one and are trying to come up with a way out as we speak. We will know their plan in a few days.
PS: I got all my stars back!! WOOT... Go MMORPG.COM!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
you are wrong, and all the other threads about this topic are terribly misinformed and WRONG.
Many companies do this, from auto insurance companies to 90% of every "free credit report" company. This is an unfortunate standard practice that hopefully in the future will be thwarted by legislature. While my specialty is business law, I can attest to the legality issues and affirm that it is rather unfortunate, but companies CAN and DO get away with this.
Want to make a difference? Stop paying to play betas, read their contract and fine print on the website, and ask questions BEFORE opening your wallet. You can save yourself a huge headache. You would be amazed on how many things you agree to by simply visiting a company's website and paying for a service or a product. Want to know more about this topic, study up on contract law. Have any questions, feel free to ask.
OK.. I have a question. All the examples you gave (Freecredit reports etc). They are allowed to start recurrent billing without telling you or you clicking accept anywhere? I call bullshit. YES they try to cloak it or have small text somewhere, but YOU have to somehow be notified and accept the terms. That did NOT happen in this case and THAT is the difference. A contract is an agreement between 2 or more parties. A contract is not one person unilaterally deciding to bill you for something you didn't agree to. That would be the opposite of a contract.
SV knows they stepped in poop on this one and are trying to come up with a way out as we speak. We will know their plan in a few days.
PS: I got all my stars back!! WOOT... Go MMORPG.COM!
So you haven't been billed yet, just your status say that you MAY be billed at some point in the future?
Btw, read this? May have been created after you signed up, but will most likely be applicable. If you PREorder you have a responsibility as a consumer to follow up on any subsequent changes. It is (rightly) assumed that you closely monitor the progress of whatever you have preordered and stay on top of any and all general conditions and terms. Also know that in the Nordic countries verbal law applies, and that there is no need for signed documentation upon changes in terms of sale.
you are wrong, and all the other threads about this topic are terribly misinformed and WRONG.
Many companies do this, from auto insurance companies to 90% of every "free credit report" company. This is an unfortunate standard practice that hopefully in the future will be thwarted by legislature. While my specialty is business law, I can attest to the legality issues and affirm that it is rather unfortunate, but companies CAN and DO get away with this.
Want to make a difference? Stop paying to play betas, read their contract and fine print on the website, and ask questions BEFORE opening your wallet. You can save yourself a huge headache. You would be amazed on how many things you agree to by simply visiting a company's website and paying for a service or a product. Want to know more about this topic, study up on contract law. Have any questions, feel free to ask.
OK.. I have a question. All the examples you gave (Freecredit reports etc). They are allowed to start recurrent billing without telling you or you clicking accept anywhere? I call bullshit. YES they try to cloak it or have small text somewhere, but YOU have to somehow be notified and accept the terms. That did NOT happen in this case and THAT is the difference. A contract is an agreement between 2 or more parties. A contract is not one person unilaterally deciding to bill you for something you didn't agree to. That would be the opposite of a contract.
SV knows they stepped in poop on this one and are trying to come up with a way out as we speak. We will know their plan in a few days.
PS: I got all my stars back!! WOOT... Go MMORPG.COM!
Wrong, hence the concept of unilateral contracts. Do some research before you take any personal attacks on me. As long as their is consideration, legal detriment, companies are in their right. Let's say I am cutting your neighbors lawn, and i point to you, and point to your lawn, then you give me a head nod. I proceed to cut your lawn and then hand you a bill after i am finish. You quickly scream at me "I did not agree to pay you for this" well according to the law yes you did. Because the law protects people from unjust enrichment. Any first year law student knows this. How does this relate to the SV issue? That is beyond the scope of you and this thread.
[Mod Edit]
I personally feel SV are somewhat unethical, and eventhough SV MIGHT be in the right, customers never forget unethical behaviour, just ask Funcom after the AOC launch.
Wrong, hence the concept of unilateral contracts. Do some research before you take any personal attacks on me. As long as their is consideration, legal detriment, companies are in their right. Let's say I am cutting your neighbors lawn, and i point to you, and point to your lawn, then you give me a head nod. I proceed to cut your lawn and then hand you a bill after i am finish. You quickly scream at me "I did not agree to pay you for this" well according to the law yes you did. Because the law protects people from unjust enrichment. Any first year law student knows this. How does this relate to the SV issue? That is beyond the scope of you and this thread.
I do not want to further discuss this with you because I will not indulge your flames, trolling, and name calling. I notice it is the same 3 names constantly bashing this beta game. I do not like what SV is doing, I do not condone paying for betas, and I believe in punishing unethical companies by closing my wallet.
I personally feel SV are somewhat unethical, and eventhough SV MIGHT be in the right, customers never forget unethical behaviour, just ask Funcom after the AOC launch.
While I am very impressed with your legal background it is totally misapplied in this case. Belittling others is generally not a good way to prove your point. but as you said there is no need to further discuss this. SV will be making a statement in a few days.
Edit to add:
PS: Which definition more accurately describes the transaction being discussed?
In a unilateral, or one-sided, contract, one party, known as the offeror, makes a promise in exchange for an act (or abstention from acting) by another party, known as the offeree. If the offeree acts on the offeror's promise, the offeror is legally obligated to fulfill the contract, but an offeree cannot be forced to act (or not act), because no return promise has been made to the offeror. After an offeree has performed, only one enforceable promise exists, that of the offeror.
A unilateral contract differs from a Bilateral Contract, in which the parties exchange mutual promises.Bilateral contracts are commonly used in business transactions; a sale of goods is a type of bilateral contract.
Reward offers are usually unilateral contracts. The offeror (the party offering the reward) cannot impel anyone to fulfill the reward offer. An offeree can sue for breach of contract, however, if the offeror does not provide the reward after the offeree has fulfilled the contract's requirements.
UNILATERAL CONTRACT, civil law. When the party to whom an engagement is made, makes no express agreement on his part, the contract is called unilateral, even in cases where the law attaches certain obligations to his acceptance. Civ. Code of Lo. art. 1758. Code Nap. 1103. A loan of money, and a loan for use, are of this kind. Poth. Obl. part 1, c. 1, s. 1, art. 2; Lee. Elemen. Sec. 781.
bouvier()
I'll leave it to the acedemics to argue the nuances. As the title of this thread refers to the UNETHICAL behavior of the company and by your own words you agree.. it is simply a matter of degree and not worth arguing over minutiae. SV has a big issue on their hands and we will see their final response shortly (we have already seen their immediate one which was to ignore/defer and delay).weal()
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Wrong, hence the concept of unilateral contracts. Do some research before you take any personal attacks on me. As long as their is consideration, legal detriment, companies are in their right. Let's say I am cutting your neighbors lawn, and i point to you, and point to your lawn, then you give me a head nod. I proceed to cut your lawn and then hand you a bill after i am finish. You quickly scream at me "I did not agree to pay you for this" well according to the law yes you did. Because the law protects people from unjust enrichment. Any first year law student knows this. How does this relate to the SV issue? That is beyond the scope of you and this thread.
I do not want to further discuss this with you because I will not indulge your flames, trolling, and name calling. I notice it is the same 3 names constantly bashing this beta game. I do not like what SV is doing, I do not condone paying for betas, and I believe in punishing unethical companies by closing my wallet.
I personally feel SV are somewhat unethical, and eventhough SV MIGHT be in the right, customers never forget unethical behaviour, just ask Funcom after the AOC launch.
While I am very impressed with your legal background it is totally misapplied in this case. Belittling others is generally not a good way to prove your point. but as you said there is no need to further discuss this. SV will be making a statement in a few days.
Cannot really see how calling you out can be belitteling, but that is besides the point. Until you actually get charged you have no case. The point is moot and should end. Come back when you haven't done a preorder and have unknowingly been charged. It may garner sympathy; right now you are digging a hole.
Wrong, hence the concept of unilateral contracts. Do some research before you take any personal attacks on me. As long as their is consideration, legal detriment, companies are in their right. Let's say I am cutting your neighbors lawn, and i point to you, and point to your lawn, then you give me a head nod. I proceed to cut your lawn and then hand you a bill after i am finish. You quickly scream at me "I did not agree to pay you for this" well according to the law yes you did. Because the law protects people from unjust enrichment. Any first year law student knows this. How does this relate to the SV issue? That is beyond the scope of you and this thread.
I do not want to further discuss this with you because I will not indulge your flames, trolling, and name calling. I notice it is the same 3 names constantly bashing this beta game. I do not like what SV is doing, I do not condone paying for betas, and I believe in punishing unethical companies by closing my wallet.
I personally feel SV are somewhat unethical, and eventhough SV MIGHT be in the right, customers never forget unethical behaviour, just ask Funcom after the AOC launch.
While I am very impressed with your legal background it is totally misapplied in this case. Belittling others is generally not a good way to prove your point. but as you said there is no need to further discuss this. SV will be making a statement in a few days.
Cannot really see how calling you out can be belitteling, but that is besides the point. Until you actually get charged you have no case. The point is moot and should end. Come back when you haven't done a preorder and have unknowingly been charged. It may garner sympathy; right now you are digging a hole.
Sorry I get that a few people post repeatedly bad things regardless etc. . but
If a car is coming straight at me. . should I not be worried until it hits me? While some of the posting here might be a bit over the top. This time the problem is a legitimate one.
Wrong, hence the concept of unilateral contracts. Do some research before you take any personal attacks on me. As long as their is consideration, legal detriment, companies are in their right. Let's say I am cutting your neighbors lawn, and i point to you, and point to your lawn, then you give me a head nod. I proceed to cut your lawn and then hand you a bill after i am finish. You quickly scream at me "I did not agree to pay you for this" well according to the law yes you did. Because the law protects people from unjust enrichment. Any first year law student knows this. How does this relate to the SV issue? That is beyond the scope of you and this thread.
I do not want to further discuss this with you because I will not indulge your flames, trolling, and name calling. I notice it is the same 3 names constantly bashing this beta game. I do not like what SV is doing, I do not condone paying for betas, and I believe in punishing unethical companies by closing my wallet.
I personally feel SV are somewhat unethical, and eventhough SV MIGHT be in the right, customers never forget unethical behaviour, just ask Funcom after the AOC launch.
While I am very impressed with your legal background it is totally misapplied in this case. Belittling others is generally not a good way to prove your point. but as you said there is no need to further discuss this. SV will be making a statement in a few days.
Cannot really see how calling you out can be belitteling, but that is besides the point. Until you actually get charged you have no case. The point is moot and should end. Come back when you haven't done a preorder and have unknowingly been charged. It may garner sympathy; right now you are digging a hole.
Sorry I get that a few people post repeatedly bad things regardless etc. . but
If a car is coming straight at me. . should I not be worried until it hits me? While some of the posting here might be a bit over the top. This time the problem is a legitimate one.
If you do not intend to stay on top of all aspects of a game's development DO NOT PREORDER. Also, until the hypothetical becomes reality there is no valid point to be made. Re-raise the issue when it is probable that something may accour (a few days after launch). Until then, stop speculating.
If you do not intend to stay on top of all aspects of a game's development DO NOT PREORDER. Also, until the hypothetical becomes reality there is no valid point to be made. Re-raise the issue when it is probable that something may accour (a few days after launch). Until then, stop speculating.
As the game was supposed to launch in March and was only delayed at the last minute due to technical issues (desync) I think we are past the point "when it is probable something may accour (SIC)"
If we took your advice and waited until "a few days after launch", would we not be faced with the same situation? Noone would be billed until the following month...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Despite my problems with how SV develops, and how they market (hype and lies), this really seems to take the cake.
Slapshot pointed out something in another thread that I felt deserved its own place, and that is the auto-renew feature that SV has set up in place.
Lots of people bought MO, played it, and have written it off entirely. I'm one of those people, obviously -- but my entire guild (7 people) plus many others I've encountered have no interest in playing it at launch. Several of my guildmates have moved onto different games and things, and don't pay MO any attention. For those people, and people like them -- they are set to auto-renew their subscription whether they want to or not.
How is this even ethical? Sure, SV may say "oh well you had the option to turn it off" but nobody here said "I accept" to a subscriber agreement yet, have they? They pre-ordered a game. They did not SUBSCRIBE to that game.
This is just another in a series of lows that SV is setting the bar for, and I honestly hope that somebody gets burned by this and sues them. Because ultimately, that's what it will come down to. And I tell you this much -- I don't have the option to manage my account as I'm "banned", if I billed for anything when the game launches, I will certainly sue SV. And yes, I actually have the funds (and a company subsidized legal plan) to do it.
Fallen Earth did this to me after I bought the game online, downloaded it, played my free time and never gave a credit card or agreed to a monthly charge (I thought). I quit playing after about two weeks and never thought i needed to unsubscribe since I had never subscribed. Checked my credit card bill later and FE had been charging me. Seems this bar was set before SV started trying it. I'd be interested to know if you actually go through with your threatened lawsuit over a $15 charge though lol. Your "company subsidized legal plan" will more likely be paying for the cost of small claims court.
If you do not intend to stay on top of all aspects of a game's development DO NOT PREORDER. Also, until the hypothetical becomes reality there is no valid point to be made. Re-raise the issue when it is probable that something may accour (a few days after launch). Until then, stop speculating.
As the game was supposed to launch in March and was only delayed at the last minute due to technical issues (desync) I think we are past the point "when it is probable something may accour (SIC)"
If we took your advice and waited until "a few days after launch", would we not be faced with the same situation? Noone would be billed until the following month...
Moot points. It's normal that MMO's are delayed. Until the game is actually considered finished (launched) you have no legitemate claim. It is still a work in progress and since it is unknown wheter or not you will be billed there is no case.
If you do not intend to stay on top of all aspects of a game's development DO NOT PREORDER. Also, until the hypothetical becomes reality there is no valid point to be made. Re-raise the issue when it is probable that something may accour (a few days after launch). Until then, stop speculating.
As the game was supposed to launch in March and was only delayed at the last minute due to technical issues (desync) I think we are past the point "when it is probable something may accour (SIC)"
If we took your advice and waited until "a few days after launch", would we not be faced with the same situation? Noone would be billed until the following month...
Moot points. It's normal that MMO's are delayed. Until the game is actually considered finished (launched) you have no legitemate claim. It is still a work in progress and since it is unknown wheter or not you will be billed there is no case.
I'm not trying to build a case. I have no intention of sueing anyone.... I just believe that the actions of this company are unethical so I support the point of this thread.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Star Vault may possibly at some point in the future bill people for a subscription that they implicitly agreed to. Those people may or may not be notified. *yawn*
I'm not trying to build a case. I have no intention of sueing anyone.... I just believe that the actions of this company are unethical so I support the point of this thread.
Well you support any thread that puts SV in a bad light, so that's no surprise. The rest of us try and be fair in our criticism. It's convenient the way in which this thread came to be, wouldn't you say?
Now no matter what happens, you guys will just say this was the plan all along, whether this is a fact or not doesn't really matter does it? Because regardless of any facts this thread will exist, and some people will buy into it. In the end a loss of a customer be it one or a thousand is a win for you guys, am I right?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Now no matter what happens, you guys will just say this was the plan all along, whether this is a fact or not doesn't really matter does it? Because regardless of any facts this thread will exist, and some people will buy into it. In the end a loss of a customer be it one or a thousand is a win for you guys, am I right?
Well , imo that is the only thing 100% clear; really hard to get what kind of proffit will bashers get from their efforts besides feeding their lowest impulses, and making SV loose some bucks. Mmorpg.com has made their choice too and clearly positioned in the dark side, even harder to get why give coverage to a bunch of ranting users and start a warning-fest on people that allways been constructive to the comunity, i should say i find that unethical too.
Even more annoying is people complaining about the "trolls". If their claims are unreasonable, just correct them by being polite and helpful. Some people replying on these forums throw on even darker light on Mortal Online by generally being unfriendly and aggressive towards anyone who is negative about "their" game. So, if you have to say something about the thread, say it, if you have to say something about a person, PM them. Don't annoy us again and again with how that and this person is only trolling. If they were acting against the ToS, I think the staff would be more than captable to handle them,
Even more annoying is people complaining about the "trolls". If their claims are unreasonable, just correct them by being polite and helpful. Some people replying on these forums throw on even darker light on Mortal Online by generally being unfriendly and aggressive towards anyone who is negative about "their" game. So, if you have to say something about the thread, say it, if you have to say something about a person, PM them. Don't annoy us again and again with how that and this person is only trolling. If they were acting against the ToS, I think the staff would be more than captable to handle them,
While I understand your point, I would note that many times the responders do try to be polite and helpful. Some of the more vocal critics try to start a tempest in a teapot over any issue they can identify (e.g. Henrick saying their launch will be smoother than Darkfall's becomes him "slamming" Darkfall, critic argues that Unreal Engine+Atlas is not suitable for open worlds and when contradicted [with quotes from Epic] shifts to "Star Vault doesn't know how to program it anyway')
Anyway, back on topic. Perhaps this can put the topic to rest for the time being.
Talked to Henrik about this and not entirely sure what he said. Something about that there was something when the system was first launched. But he said that he are going to send out a a press release or something soon to clear things out.
I'm not sure when but should be in a day or to.
I must clarify that we do not intend to charge people that do not want to play the game. So I believe that all this is just one big misunderstanding. I don't know how it works so just wait for Henrik's statement.
This is what I was thinking. If they weren't going to and had no intention we would have had a pretty quick "no way" answer. If it takes a few days to respond - they are trying to either figure out how to change it or how they will present it.
Yes...Here comes the spin! "Oh...That was never our intention, it was a misunderstanding...."
This is what I was thinking. If they weren't going to and had no intention we would have had a pretty quick "no way" answer. If it takes a few days to respond - they are trying to either figure out how to change it or how they will present it.
Yes...Here comes the spin! "Oh...That was never our intention, it was a misunderstanding...."
The hater spin will be better though "it's lies all lies they're going to steal your money and rape your pet cat! The end is nigh!!!!". The only area I find MO to be real deficient in is the haters, they're just so weak and low class compared to DFO. Now DFO had some real good haters with actual skill, this game has 5 haters max and they're totaly desynced with reality and have zero potential in my opinion!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Comments
Except.. if it weren't true he would simply be able to state so.. Instead of having to escalate it to management and getting a response next week...(Keep in mind that SV has just a handful of employees.. and this guy has many of them reporting to him as Community Manager.. is it really THAT hard to talk with your boss that it takes weeks?)
A simple.. "Don't worry. If you didn't actively select a subscription you won't be charged" would have put the whole issue to bed... So since that didn't happen, either he doesn't understand the policy himself (which should tell you something) or he is waiting to see if they will change it or spin it.
My money is on a statement pretty much ignoring the issue and saying that recurring billing is a standard MMORPG practice with no mention of the fact that these people didn't chose a subscription type or duration as required by their own TOS. I also think they will say that they will be emailing all their customers to make sure they are aware of their policy.
If that happens it is simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Customers must actively agree to be charged... not passively accept it. But we shall see what happens in a few days... Their own forums are in an uproar. The very thread entitled "MORE MMORPG.COM LIES" has turned into a relevation for many who can't believe SV would even consider acting this way. I think their eyes have been opened to more than just this single issue. We shall see...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This is what I was thinking. If they weren't going to and had no intention we would have had a pretty quick "no way" answer. If it takes a few days to respond - they are trying to either figure out how to change it or how they will present it.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
This is quickly turning into one of the silliest threads of my many years stalking these forums.. Nothing illegal has happened, something which may, perhaps, be bad customer service, can possibly, happen, at some point, in the future. Posters flying off the wall thinking that US law is applicable in Sweden. (Hints: court case? go ahead, try. class action suit? good luck. punitives? nope.)
Have anyone actually looked into who takes care of the billing and subscription at all? Both may be (most likely) third party vendors which SV doesn't control and they can't give definitve answers until they know for sure what is happening themselves. And as previously stated, there's nothing unethical about a company placing people on autorenewal for a subscription, especially if they have preordered. I've bought mobile phones in three countries with a condition of a 12 month plan and it's always been autorenewed after that time. Seeing as this whole thread is about hypotheticals, until something *actually* happens, this thread is nothing but hyperbole.
(Note: I'm have no intentions of playing this game and could care less for it, its just too silly to let stand.)
Please re-read the thread for it appears you missed much of it
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So you've been charged? Can I see the screenshot of your bankaccount?
You should go to the MO thread though posted at the beginning of this thread. A lot of people there thought it was silly as well until there was no answer for a few days.
I agree that it is only PR at this point. . but imagine if this nasty thread was not started. . then it would have been different. If they can fix it now good for them. . if it is after release it would look much worse.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
you are wrong, and all the other threads about this topic are terribly misinformed and WRONG.
Many companies do this, from auto insurance companies to 90% of every "free credit report" company. This is an unfortunate standard practice that hopefully in the future will be thwarted by legislature. While my specialty is business law, I can attest to the legality issues and affirm that it is rather unfortunate, but companies CAN and DO get away with this.
Want to make a difference? Stop paying to play betas, read their contract and fine print on the website, and ask questions BEFORE opening your wallet. You can save yourself a huge headache. You would be amazed on how many things you agree to by simply visiting a company's website and paying for a service or a product. Want to know more about this topic, study up on contract law. Have any questions, feel free to ask.
OK.. I have a question. All the examples you gave (Freecredit reports etc). They are allowed to start recurrent billing without telling you or you clicking accept anywhere? I call bullshit. YES they try to cloak it or have small text somewhere, but YOU have to somehow be notified and accept the terms. That did NOT happen in this case and THAT is the difference. A contract is an agreement between 2 or more parties. A contract is not one person unilaterally deciding to bill you for something you didn't agree to. That would be the opposite of a contract.
SV knows they stepped in poop on this one and are trying to come up with a way out as we speak. We will know their plan in a few days.
PS: I got all my stars back!! WOOT... Go MMORPG.COM!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So you haven't been billed yet, just your status say that you MAY be billed at some point in the future?
Btw, read this? May have been created after you signed up, but will most likely be applicable. If you PREorder you have a responsibility as a consumer to follow up on any subsequent changes. It is (rightly) assumed that you closely monitor the progress of whatever you have preordered and stay on top of any and all general conditions and terms. Also know that in the Nordic countries verbal law applies, and that there is no need for signed documentation upon changes in terms of sale.
Wrong, hence the concept of unilateral contracts. Do some research before you take any personal attacks on me. As long as their is consideration, legal detriment, companies are in their right. Let's say I am cutting your neighbors lawn, and i point to you, and point to your lawn, then you give me a head nod. I proceed to cut your lawn and then hand you a bill after i am finish. You quickly scream at me "I did not agree to pay you for this" well according to the law yes you did. Because the law protects people from unjust enrichment. Any first year law student knows this. How does this relate to the SV issue? That is beyond the scope of you and this thread.
[Mod Edit]
I personally feel SV are somewhat unethical, and eventhough SV MIGHT be in the right, customers never forget unethical behaviour, just ask Funcom after the AOC launch.
While I am very impressed with your legal background it is totally misapplied in this case. Belittling others is generally not a good way to prove your point. but as you said there is no need to further discuss this. SV will be making a statement in a few days.
Edit to add:
PS: Which definition more accurately describes the transaction being discussed?
In a unilateral, or one-sided, contract, one party, known as the offeror, makes a promise in exchange for an act (or abstention from acting) by another party, known as the offeree. If the offeree acts on the offeror's promise, the offeror is legally obligated to fulfill the contract, but an offeree cannot be forced to act (or not act), because no return promise has been made to the offeror. After an offeree has performed, only one enforceable promise exists, that of the offeror.
A unilateral contract differs from a Bilateral Contract, in which the parties exchange mutual promises.Bilateral contracts are commonly used in business transactions; a sale of goods is a type of bilateral contract.
Reward offers are usually unilateral contracts. The offeror (the party offering the reward) cannot impel anyone to fulfill the reward offer. An offeree can sue for breach of contract, however, if the offeror does not provide the reward after the offeree has fulfilled the contract's requirements.
UNILATERAL CONTRACT, civil law. When the party to whom an engagement is made, makes no express agreement on his part, the contract is called unilateral, even in cases where the law attaches certain obligations to his acceptance. Civ. Code of Lo. art. 1758. Code Nap. 1103. A loan of money, and a loan for use, are of this kind. Poth. Obl. part 1, c. 1, s. 1, art. 2; Lee. Elemen. Sec. 781.
bouvier()
I'll leave it to the acedemics to argue the nuances. As the title of this thread refers to the UNETHICAL behavior of the company and by your own words you agree.. it is simply a matter of degree and not worth arguing over minutiae. SV has a big issue on their hands and we will see their final response shortly (we have already seen their immediate one which was to ignore/defer and delay).weal()
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Cannot really see how calling you out can be belitteling, but that is besides the point. Until you actually get charged you have no case. The point is moot and should end. Come back when you haven't done a preorder and have unknowingly been charged. It may garner sympathy; right now you are digging a hole.
Sorry I get that a few people post repeatedly bad things regardless etc. . but
If a car is coming straight at me. . should I not be worried until it hits me? While some of the posting here might be a bit over the top. This time the problem is a legitimate one.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
If you do not intend to stay on top of all aspects of a game's development DO NOT PREORDER. Also, until the hypothetical becomes reality there is no valid point to be made. Re-raise the issue when it is probable that something may accour (a few days after launch). Until then, stop speculating.
As the game was supposed to launch in March and was only delayed at the last minute due to technical issues (desync) I think we are past the point "when it is probable something may accour (SIC)"
If we took your advice and waited until "a few days after launch", would we not be faced with the same situation? Noone would be billed until the following month...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Fallen Earth did this to me after I bought the game online, downloaded it, played my free time and never gave a credit card or agreed to a monthly charge (I thought). I quit playing after about two weeks and never thought i needed to unsubscribe since I had never subscribed. Checked my credit card bill later and FE had been charging me. Seems this bar was set before SV started trying it. I'd be interested to know if you actually go through with your threatened lawsuit over a $15 charge though lol. Your "company subsidized legal plan" will more likely be paying for the cost of small claims court.
Moot points. It's normal that MMO's are delayed. Until the game is actually considered finished (launched) you have no legitemate claim. It is still a work in progress and since it is unknown wheter or not you will be billed there is no case.
I'm not trying to build a case. I have no intention of sueing anyone.... I just believe that the actions of this company are unethical so I support the point of this thread.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Star Vault may possibly at some point in the future bill people for a subscription that they implicitly agreed to. Those people may or may not be notified. *yawn*
http://www.massively.com/2010/04/08/billing-issues-hitting-warhammer-online-and-dark-age-of-camelot/ http://www.massively.com/2009/02/25/darkfall-prepares-for-launch-renewed-sales-of-games/
While I understand the concern, it hardly seems worth the length of this discussion.
Well you support any thread that puts SV in a bad light, so that's no surprise. The rest of us try and be fair in our criticism. It's convenient the way in which this thread came to be, wouldn't you say?
Now no matter what happens, you guys will just say this was the plan all along, whether this is a fact or not doesn't really matter does it? Because regardless of any facts this thread will exist, and some people will buy into it. In the end a loss of a customer be it one or a thousand is a win for you guys, am I right?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well , imo that is the only thing 100% clear; really hard to get what kind of proffit will bashers get from their efforts besides feeding their lowest impulses, and making SV loose some bucks. Mmorpg.com has made their choice too and clearly positioned in the dark side, even harder to get why give coverage to a bunch of ranting users and start a warning-fest on people that allways been constructive to the comunity, i should say i find that unethical too.
Even more annoying is people complaining about the "trolls". If their claims are unreasonable, just correct them by being polite and helpful. Some people replying on these forums throw on even darker light on Mortal Online by generally being unfriendly and aggressive towards anyone who is negative about "their" game. So, if you have to say something about the thread, say it, if you have to say something about a person, PM them. Don't annoy us again and again with how that and this person is only trolling. If they were acting against the ToS, I think the staff would be more than captable to handle them,
While I understand your point, I would note that many times the responders do try to be polite and helpful. Some of the more vocal critics try to start a tempest in a teapot over any issue they can identify (e.g. Henrick saying their launch will be smoother than Darkfall's becomes him "slamming" Darkfall, critic argues that Unreal Engine+Atlas is not suitable for open worlds and when contradicted [with quotes from Epic] shifts to "Star Vault doesn't know how to program it anyway')
Anyway, back on topic. Perhaps this can put the topic to rest for the time being.
Today, 07:53 [April 11,2010]
#220 (permalink)
Andreas Springare
Level Designer
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Age: 23
Rep Power: 10
Talked to Henrik about this and not entirely sure what he said. Something about that there was something when the system was first launched. But he said that he are going to send out a a press release or something soon to clear things out.
I'm not sure when but should be in a day or to.
I must clarify that we do not intend to charge people that do not want to play the game. So I believe that all this is just one big misunderstanding. I don't know how it works so just wait for Henrik's statement.
__________________
Yes...Here comes the spin! "Oh...That was never our intention, it was a misunderstanding...."
I win!!! LOL@U
The hater spin will be better though "it's lies all lies they're going to steal your money and rape your pet cat! The end is nigh!!!!". The only area I find MO to be real deficient in is the haters, they're just so weak and low class compared to DFO. Now DFO had some real good haters with actual skill, this game has 5 haters max and they're totaly desynced with reality and have zero potential in my opinion!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis